I spent a lot of time looking at various sideboard lists for grixis twin decks, and while threat #2 in the SB varies a lot, most of the top decks are running Kerano's. He's essentially drawing you an extra card a turn, and even if that card is sometimes a lightning bolt, in a deck that can play a tempo beatdown game, that's surprisingly good. I'm hesitant to call Cryptic a good answer to that, because if they resolved the Keranos, you're likely tapped out, and so you likely have to spend your whole next turn bouncing it back, and they get to jam it out again the next turn. I feel like being able to find a way to beat the "I resolved Keranos, I'm 90% favored to win" symmetry in the mirror would be really good. I don't know if it exists though.
As an aside, I did beat Keranos once with an Olivia/Spellskite duo. I really want to find space for a second Spellskite in the side because I feel like I bring it in for almost every matchup. I think it pairs well with a proactive discard strategy too since it lets you keep tapping out while still being able to answer certain spells.
I have 3 Inquisition/1 Thoughtseize. Though I've never felt they're particularly better G1 vs 2/3. Any matchup where they're good in G1 tends to stay true for G2/3. I've rarely ever sideboarded them out. The only time they're ever bad is against Leyline of Sanctity type effects, but I've only run into that once out of 20 or so matches on MTGO. The ability for it to nab Abrupt Decay G1 aginst BGx decks though is the best benefit of them G1 over counters, since it lets you push through your combo. And in G2/3, you then have the option to sideboard out the combo and strip away more problematic cards and land threats that can't be AD'd like Tasigur, and leave them with very few decay targets.
Both lists have done well so it probably comes down to playstyle. I haven't played the deck long enough so I'm very uncomfortable with long draw-go's in the mirror. Having discard is a good way for me to maintain card parity while having good information. The only thing I hate is that it overloads the amount of sorcery speed interaction (between Serum Visions and Discard), and tapping out on your turn can be really bad when they get to resolve a Kolaghan's getting back Snap, since those games tend to be all about card advantage.
So, a friend of mine and I are hitting up a Modern tournament with an unknown meta this Sunday, and I thought I’d get a second opinion on my deck to see if I’m over/underprepared for any decks
Sadly I don’t have any Scalding Tarns (hence the Flooded Strands), so I’m hoping to get by with what I have for lands since they’re a bit beyond my budget. Anyway, any advice would be welcomed, especially since it’s the first time I’ve tried putting together a side board for Magic.
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
I would look at shifting a few things around Albegas, but take my recommendation with a bit of salt as I grind online exclusively these days it seems so thats my meta. :]
Dispel - 2 Main, 1 Board seems best for me. Spell Snare - I had run them main, but I like them more in the board (2) Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I like him a lot more in the Side as well.
Commands, Terminate, Negate, and Mana Leak can all be shuffled up to go to your expectation and play style. I find my main deck has shifted towards a more standard UR build, with only 1 Terminate and 1 Kolaghan's Command main, with 1 more of each in the Side. For most Tier 1 Matchup's thats been sufficient removal with Bolt to keep me going.
One thing that may be an issue is you dont have Electrolyze which can be a great card, and keeps us cycling.
So guys, i haven't been talking here for a while. However i will attend a tournament next month. Usually there are about 50 players, the meta is quite diverse. However i always got paired against aggro decks like Infect and Burn. Now here is the list i will probably take there. If you have any suggestions please feel free to post them!
I know that my list is pretty heavy on control with 2 Spellsnare and all the counterstuff Post-Board. So could you suggest something instead? I would cut 1 MD Dispel and move it to SB, but what to take out there?
About the 4 Island based fetches:
I am on a budget here and simply can not afford 4 scalding tarn. Maybe i can ask a friend of mine to lend me his playset.
The thing with blood moon probably solved itself with this. What land would you suggest i could take out for an Island? I would like to keep the basic mountain. Maybe the Lighthouse?
I put the Extractions in there because i expect decks like U-Tron, Living End and such. Doesn't Relic hurt ourselfs when you sac it? I think Spellbomb could be the better idea here. I will look into that! Thanks!
About the 4 Island based fetches:
I am on a budget here and simply can not afford 4 scalding tarn. Maybe i can ask a friend of mine to lend me his playset.
Flooded Strands are perfectly acceptable in place of tarns. The only thing they don't fetch is basic mountain (which with Blood Moon you'll already have too many of), and the Blood Crypt. 1/10 Games you'll probably hurt not being able to fetch Blood Crypt over the other 2 shocks/basics, but you'll barely notice the other times. You just have to be more deliberate in your fetch sequencing. Besides, now is a good time to pick up fetches before they inevitably climb higher and higher.
I already have my playsets of each KTK Fetchland. The thing with not being able to fetch for Red/Black basic is what bugged me about Flooded Strand though. I will give it a shot with the strands.
Are 4 Vents really too many? I would have guessed more duals are better for us for mana fixing?
Just be careful that you fetch the right lands with the right fetches and you'll hardly notice the difference. I don't know if I've ever fetched for the basic mountain, and Tarns don't fetch the swamp anyway. I've been going with a 4Delta/3Strand/2Mire split.
I wouldn't say that 4 Vents are "too many", but if you want to fit in an island, then the first thing I'd take out is a vent. It really depends on your exact 75, but for me I've always felt like once I have 2 vents, I'd rather fetch for basic to hedge against opposing/my own blood moons.
I already have my playsets of each KTK Fetchland. The thing with not being able to fetch for Red/Black basic is what bugged me about Flooded Strand though. I will give it a shot with the strands.
Are 4 Vents really too many? I would have guessed more duals are better for us for mana fixing?
Fetching basic islands is much more important for this deck than mountain or swamp, especially with Cryptic Command.
As for the duals, having too many of a particular shock can make your manabase too painful for aggressive decks like Affinity and Burn. 4 Steam Vents is far too many; most decks play a 2 Vent/2 Grave/1 Crypt split of shocks and fill in the rest with 2 or so Sulfur Falls and something like a Darkslick Shores.
I would look at shifting a few things around Albegas, but take my recommendation with a bit of salt as I grind online exclusively these days it seems so thats my meta. :]
Dispel - 2 Main, 1 Board seems best for me. Spell Snare - I had run them main, but I like them more in the board (2) Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I like him a lot more in the Side as well.
Commands, Terminate, Negate, and Mana Leak can all be shuffled up to go to your expectation and play style. I find my main deck has shifted towards a more standard UR build, with only 1 Terminate and 1 Kolaghan's Command main, with 1 more of each in the Side. For most Tier 1 Matchup's thats been sufficient removal with Bolt to keep me going.
One thing that may be an issue is you dont have Electrolyze which can be a great card, and keeps us cycling.
Thanks for the reply. I may play around a bit with siding Spell Snares in favor of more Dispels since for every game Snares save me I seem to end up in another where they do nothing. I may still keep the Tasigurs in just because like having that back-up grind game available. Just so I can get a better understanding of your viewpoint, what are the major differences between the online meta and the offline meta?
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Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Online has more burn, more combo, more twin, and more Blue than paper events would seem to indicate (based on the metagame threads) so there's a lot of instants to Dispel. I also prefer to not lose the counter wars with Grixis players that there are a lot of online, as well as Delver builds.
Looks fine, though I'd rather have Negate over Counterflux in your board. Counterflux is just a bit too slow against decks like Burn and Negate does a fine job in the mirror.
I feel like Crumble and Seas are worse at doing what Blood Moon does. Crumble comes down a turn later than moon, and seems more narrow in that it only hates out tron hard. Seas is cheaper and cycles, but is only going to hit a single land. Paying 2 for a sorcery speed spell that may not do anything doesn't seem like what twin wants to be doing.
I don't think there's a lot of merit to having 1 IoK in the board. I've been running the list with 3 copies in the main, and it's always been great in an opening hand but very quickly becomes the worst card in your deck as the game goes on. Without a critical number of them, I think you'd rather be running thoughtseize as discard, unless all you care about is abrupt decay.
I agree with Counterflux -> Negate change. The can't be countered clause matters much less than you'd think, especially since against the blue decks they can always remand their own spell to "counter" counterflux. Negate is cheaper and easier to cast and will be better more often.
One way you can fit Clique is to split tasigurs 1 main/1 side and cut a maindeck counter?
I'm curious about Slaughter Games. Which specific matchups are you thinking of bringing this in for? I've been having trouble against Scapeshift and this seems like a pretty good answer to them, but I'm not sure I want to dedicate a slot to hate out a single matchup.
1 the discard did very little, I think it's gotta go sideboard at best.
2 the Cryptics (2) main board where clutch any game I didn't win on turn 4.
3 Dropped to a single Kolaghan's Command main, and another in the board.
4 Tasigur (2) went side, come in for grindy/control games if needed.
5 Anger of the Gods (2) out of the board saved me against boggles and sisters.
6 Keranos wins games against Grixis anything.
7 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver would have won me the last match I played but I got cute and forgot to mill once. Then ran out of time.
I agree with a lot of your points. In fact I'd say your comments basically sum up exactly how I feel about the deck. I agree to a T with you about discard and cryptics. Same with keranos and anger. A couple questions for you however:
1. Do you miss tasigur in the main at all? Which matchups do you miss him in?
2. What is the thought process behind ashiok?
3. How has only one Kommand main been for you? Also linked question, how many twins and tappers do you run main?
No, I dont miss Tasigur main, he comes in Games 2/3 if I feel I'm on the beat down plan or grind out. Ashiok is a pet card, I've fit him into Esper builds, and if I want to push into the Control/Removal game he can come in. If you are facing a slow deck they wont expect Planeswalkers in Twin. The fact I bring very little Black game 1 also throws people who think I'm on pure UR.
I've been finding 1 Command to be sufficient. Its amazing value, especially late game with Snap, but my Game 1 plan is to try and just combo out, and there are few cases where Game 1 Artifact Hate is going to save us.
Most common usage for me has been to pull Snapcaster out of the yard, and pop a cheap creature EOT.
I run 4 Deceiver/2 Pestermite and 4 Twin, but often drop 2 Pestermites/1 Twin for game 2 unless I go full control, then I leave a couple Twins.
As an aside, I did beat Keranos once with an Olivia/Spellskite duo. I really want to find space for a second Spellskite in the side because I feel like I bring it in for almost every matchup. I think it pairs well with a proactive discard strategy too since it lets you keep tapping out while still being able to answer certain spells.
Not exactly sure what you meant, but I'm currently on 3 Remand, 1 Snare, 1 Dispel, 1 Cryptic, with 2 Dispel, 1 Glen Elendra, 1 Negate in the side.
Spirits
Both lists have done well so it probably comes down to playstyle. I haven't played the deck long enough so I'm very uncomfortable with long draw-go's in the mirror. Having discard is a good way for me to maintain card parity while having good information. The only thing I hate is that it overloads the amount of sorcery speed interaction (between Serum Visions and Discard), and tapping out on your turn can be really bad when they get to resolve a Kolaghan's getting back Snap, since those games tend to be all about card advantage.
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mountains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Swamp
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
Creatures (12)
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Dispel
1 Cryptic Command
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
4 Splinter Twin
3 Terminate
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Glen Elendra Achmage
1 Keranose, God of Storms
2 Negate
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Shatterstorm
1 Spellskite
2 Thoughtseize
Sadly I don’t have any Scalding Tarns (hence the Flooded Strands), so I’m hoping to get by with what I have for lands since they’re a bit beyond my budget. Anyway, any advice would be welcomed, especially since it’s the first time I’ve tried putting together a side board for Magic.
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Dispel - 2 Main, 1 Board seems best for me.
Spell Snare - I had run them main, but I like them more in the board (2)
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I like him a lot more in the Side as well.
Commands, Terminate, Negate, and Mana Leak can all be shuffled up to go to your expectation and play style. I find my main deck has shifted towards a more standard UR build, with only 1 Terminate and 1 Kolaghan's Command main, with 1 more of each in the Side. For most Tier 1 Matchup's thats been sufficient removal with Bolt to keep me going.
One thing that may be an issue is you dont have Electrolyze which can be a great card, and keeps us cycling.
Spirits
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Island
4 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Cryptic Command
1 Thought Scour
4 Splinter Twin
2 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Tasigur, the golden fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the golden Fang
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Molten Rain
2 Blood Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Dispel
I know that my list is pretty heavy on control with 2 Spellsnare and all the counterstuff Post-Board. So could you suggest something instead? I would cut 1 MD Dispel and move it to SB, but what to take out there?
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
I am on a budget here and simply can not afford 4 scalding tarn. Maybe i can ask a friend of mine to lend me his playset.
The thing with blood moon probably solved itself with this. What land would you suggest i could take out for an Island? I would like to keep the basic mountain. Maybe the Lighthouse?
I put the Extractions in there because i expect decks like U-Tron, Living End and such. Doesn't Relic hurt ourselfs when you sac it? I think Spellbomb could be the better idea here. I will look into that! Thanks!
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
Flooded Strands are perfectly acceptable in place of tarns. The only thing they don't fetch is basic mountain (which with Blood Moon you'll already have too many of), and the Blood Crypt. 1/10 Games you'll probably hurt not being able to fetch Blood Crypt over the other 2 shocks/basics, but you'll barely notice the other times. You just have to be more deliberate in your fetch sequencing. Besides, now is a good time to pick up fetches before they inevitably climb higher and higher.
4 Steam vents is too many steam vents. -1 for +1 Island.
Are 4 Vents really too many? I would have guessed more duals are better for us for mana fixing?
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
I wouldn't say that 4 Vents are "too many", but if you want to fit in an island, then the first thing I'd take out is a vent. It really depends on your exact 75, but for me I've always felt like once I have 2 vents, I'd rather fetch for basic to hedge against opposing/my own blood moons.
Fetching basic islands is much more important for this deck than mountain or swamp, especially with Cryptic Command.
As for the duals, having too many of a particular shock can make your manabase too painful for aggressive decks like Affinity and Burn. 4 Steam Vents is far too many; most decks play a 2 Vent/2 Grave/1 Crypt split of shocks and fill in the rest with 2 or so Sulfur Falls and something like a Darkslick Shores.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Thanks for the reply. I may play around a bit with siding Spell Snares in favor of more Dispels since for every game Snares save me I seem to end up in another where they do nothing. I may still keep the Tasigurs in just because like having that back-up grind game available. Just so I can get a better understanding of your viewpoint, what are the major differences between the online meta and the offline meta?
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Spirits
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I feel like Crumble and Seas are worse at doing what Blood Moon does. Crumble comes down a turn later than moon, and seems more narrow in that it only hates out tron hard. Seas is cheaper and cycles, but is only going to hit a single land. Paying 2 for a sorcery speed spell that may not do anything doesn't seem like what twin wants to be doing.
I don't think there's a lot of merit to having 1 IoK in the board. I've been running the list with 3 copies in the main, and it's always been great in an opening hand but very quickly becomes the worst card in your deck as the game goes on. Without a critical number of them, I think you'd rather be running thoughtseize as discard, unless all you care about is abrupt decay.
I agree with Counterflux -> Negate change. The can't be countered clause matters much less than you'd think, especially since against the blue decks they can always remand their own spell to "counter" counterflux. Negate is cheaper and easier to cast and will be better more often.
One way you can fit Clique is to split tasigurs 1 main/1 side and cut a maindeck counter?
I'm curious about Slaughter Games. Which specific matchups are you thinking of bringing this in for? I've been having trouble against Scapeshift and this seems like a pretty good answer to them, but I'm not sure I want to dedicate a slot to hate out a single matchup.
I agree with a lot of your points. In fact I'd say your comments basically sum up exactly how I feel about the deck. I agree to a T with you about discard and cryptics. Same with keranos and anger. A couple questions for you however:
1. Do you miss tasigur in the main at all? Which matchups do you miss him in?
2. What is the thought process behind ashiok?
3. How has only one Kommand main been for you? Also linked question, how many twins and tappers do you run main?
Modern
TasitwinURB
UWRb ControlUWRB
Death and TaxesWW
Legacy
Death and TaxesWW
I've been finding 1 Command to be sufficient. Its amazing value, especially late game with Snap, but my Game 1 plan is to try and just combo out, and there are few cases where Game 1 Artifact Hate is going to save us.
Most common usage for me has been to pull Snapcaster out of the yard, and pop a cheap creature EOT.
I run 4 Deceiver/2 Pestermite and 4 Twin, but often drop 2 Pestermites/1 Twin for game 2 unless I go full control, then I leave a couple Twins.
Spirits
2 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
2 Cryptic Command
3 Terminate
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dispel
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (4)
4 Serum Visions
Enchantments (4)
4 Splinter Twin
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Flooded Strand
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dispel
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Negate
I'm unsure about the teferi and jace.