MTG Salvation

Quote from darksage78 »

I've only been play testing the Jace version of Grixis Twin at the moment against Tron and Affinity for a bit, but here are some comments.

- Terminate over Dreadbore can often be helpful, e.g. destroying the modular target of Ravager, killing a manland, destroying a creature about to be equipped by plating in affinity. Even stopping the combo in mirror matches!
- 4 Kolaghan's mainboard seems a little heavy, running 3 Cryptics depends on the meta if there's a bunch of Dispel it might not be so good
- 3 Desolate Lighthouse, this might make assembling Cryptic mana a bit more difficult

- True, but most of those targets can be bolted with a toughness of 3 or less (with the exception of Deceiver Exarch in Twin or Primeval Titan in Bloom). Having said that, Flame Slash seems rather mediocre in comparison to Terminate, so I can use some combination of Bolt, Dreadbore, and Terminate together (probably a 3-1-2 split)
- Would 3 and 2 work then? I like the ability to have strong recursive synergy between Tasigur, Snapcaster, and Kolaghan's Command. If so, I could go to a full playset of bolt and run either a 2-2 or 3-1 split between Terminate and Dreadbore.
- Yeah: I tried sticking to my "tech template" for my Podless Pod list (8 fetches, 5-6 Shocks, 4-5 Basics, 3-5 Utility), but without knowing the matchups for Grixis Twin as well, I'm kinda left wondering what utility lands I should be running other than Lighthouse. Maybe going to 2 Lighthouse and then either 2 Cascade Bluffs or Sulfur Falls?

I haven't been playing twin for very long so take the comments with a grain of salt, but here's my thoughts.

Dreadbore's not appeared in any lists that have top8'd, and while the ability to kill walkers is nice, there aren't that many relevant walkers we need to worry about. If this were a control deck, a resolved planeswalker might need an answer, but as a combo deck, esp G1, dealing with a walker at sorcery speed seems largely irrelevant, as either the damage has been done, or we're going to untap and combo off because they tapped out. Another thing I just thought of is that it makes you weaker in the twin mirror, since you lose 2 pieces of interaction with the combo.

3 Tasigurs may be too many, especially in a list with no Jaces. You're much more likely to draw 2 copies, and you're not filling your graveyard fast enough to consistently drop 2 early even if the first gets killed. Also increases the chance of stranding twins in your hand.

The 2 clique seems to lean your deck to be pretty tempo oriented G1, with a real chance for a good clock early on. Lately I've been running with 3/2 split of exarch/pestermite since these days people expect exarchs, so the bolts usually are used on other targets, or the removal doesn't care about toughness. Just something to try maybe.

4 Kolaghans does seem like a lot. 3CMC is actually quite late in a lot of matchups. Sure, it generates a ton of value, but there are a significant number of games where you simply don't have time to get that value (burn, twin mirror, tron, merfolk), and there are actually a few matchups where command is pretty bad. I think 2 is enough given you're running 4 visions/3 cryptics, or 3 max if you end up cutting some cryptics.

Personally I'd still prefer the 4th bolt over flame slash. Spellskite already dies to Kolaghans, and most decks aren't running that many. Linvala may be a nice target, but the number of games where your opponent plays linvala and you have the flame slash ready is too few vs. the games where you really need the instant speed of bolt. Would have to come down to the meta.

I definitely would stick to 1 lighthouse, and cut the palace. Lighthouse is very mana and time intensive, and again there are a lot of matchups where you simply don't have the time. The serum visions really help you dig to your 1-ofs pretty well. Drawing multiples is also really bad. Rix maadi has the same problem of being mana intensive. If you want that effect, then LotV is better. Otherwise, just cut it for some sulfur falls or more basic islands.

List looks pretty sweet tbh. Not a glaring issue, but I have been trying out a Thought Scour over the one Electrolyze, since both dig and Scour can enable some sweet plays (As can Electrolyze, so again, more of a note than an issue)

I really have been liking Drowned Catacombs as a one-of non-shock UB, someone suggested it somewhere and it has been my pick over the slick shores since. But, I tend to always like Sulfur Falls when I get it too, so maybe that is just personal preference.

Hey guys! Picking up Grixis recently after some experience with UR Twin. The thing that puzzles me the most is how to use Blood Moon here. In UR Twin I'd board it in against most 3-color decks in the format for the occasional free win. However, my experience with this deck is that Blood Moon hurts me equally or sometimes even more than my opponent. Am I playing them wrong or what? Should I bring it in only when it's super good (Tron?, Bloom)? Should I play something else entirely in its place?

FNM Report from me: I went 3-0 with my TasiTwin last Friday, netting the sweet FNM Ultimate Price.

My deck:



The manabase is not optimal due to Scalding Tarn being unreasonably expensive and my unwillingness to go off-color with Flooded Strand. Sulfur Falls is supposed to replace one of the mountains, this one's a supply issue.

First Match Up: Burn
It seems I always get the Burn MU whenever I go to an FNM, seriously. Only this time I'm playing TasiTwin instead of Delver, and sure enough I manage the Win, by the skin of my teeth.
G1: He wins the die roll, opens with the usual Goblin Guide. I make a boneheaded move by by bolting it on my turn instead of letting him attack and potentially draw me a land. Nothing much to say in this match- I lose 20 life before I get to make any kind of comeback.
G2: I'm on the play now and land a Dragon's Claw on turn 2. This puts a wrench in his plans, naturally; he dodges the claw with Atarka's Command twice, but he isn't able to kill me before I combo off on turn 5.
G3: He makes a fatal mistake on turn 3 by casting Lava Spike BEFORE playing Monastery Swiftspear, only realizing his mistake when its time for attackers. I'm not particular about letting an opponent take back his 1 last move, but 2 last moves is a bit much. As it turns out, I stabilize at 1 life with a dragon's claw on the board. I then bounce back by bolting the Swiftspear, gaining 1 life and then enchanting Exarch with a Vampiric Link and swinging to gain 1 more, putting me at 3 life and him, with no cards. I pass the turn and pray he doesn't draw Boros Charm. He doesn't, and I eventually win the game via combo.

Second Match Up: Bogles
G1: Turn 1 Gladecover Scout, and I am swaeting bullets because I didn't sideboard Hibernation today. I ALWAYS tell myself I'm gonna sleeve that up but then I procrastinate thinking the odds of meeting Bogles are low. Well. He makes a fatal mistake by swinging in with 2 Toughness and no First Strike on turn 2. I flash in Snapcaster and block. His face tells me he didn't see that coming and has just realized he is in deep trouble. He casts a Kor Spiritdancer the next turn, which is duly Terminated. I end the game on turn 4 with the combo.
G2: This match he's more cautious and only swings when his Bogle is at 5/3 with Ethereal Armor and Rancor. He drops Gaddock Teeg, which would be worrying but I've sideboarded 2 Radiant Flames and I've got one in my hand. Over to me, I pay URB for a 3 damage Flames and wipe his board. He drops a Spirit Dancer but I ignore it and combo off 2 turns later.

Third Match Up: Jeskai KikiTwin
I'm at 2-0 and him, 1-1 so I suggest splitting the packs so I can get the promo. I end up winning the 1 game we play for funsies anyway.
G1: He starts with polluted delta and my first instinct is Mirror. He drops a Hallowed Fountain the next turn though, which might have meant esper. He sees my Island, Mountain, Sunken Hollow which exposes my colors but not my archetype. We draw-go like this for several turns until finally, he serum visions and leaves one up top: I Thought Scour him, and the first counter-war begins, involving 2 spell snares, a remand, snapcaster and dispel. I win that war and he mills a Celestial Colonnade. I just might have played a game-winning thought scour there. The rest of the game is an attrition of control spells and combo pieces; I bolt a Kiki at one point, he paths both my tasigurs. Eventually, I grind him out of counters (turns out he only plays 4 remands and 2 snares) and combo off sometime on turn 15. Exhausted, we agree not to play a second round.

Lessons Learnt:
No matter what anyone says, Dragon's Claw is king against Burn. Link is nice, but only if and when they draw Eidolon. Claw on the other hand is always sweet.
I like having Tasigur maindeck. More than once he soaked up removals that meant a clear out to combo afterward, and often he is cast for B, which means 3 mana up to threaten an Exarch. Most opponents will spend removal on Tasigur.
Maindeck Dispels definitely caught the Jeskai Kikitwin off guard. It won me the counterspell attrition war and it outvalues most counterspells, particularly remand and cryptic command.
Radiant Flames AND Pyroclasm are awesome in my aggro-heavy meta. No regrets at all sideboarding them, although I am considering replacing 1 with Hibernation.

Quote from Alphez86 »

I didn't see Fulminator Mage being played nor discussed much. Blood Moon seems to be a much more common SB card. Why? I think I'd feel very uncomfortable playing Moon alongside that manabase, while casting Kommand with a Fulminator in my graveyard is the best feeling in the world.

Although I haven't been liking Blood Moon that much recently, the games where it's been good, it's been REAL good. Fulminator mage is definitely better in a longer, grindy game, but Fulminator + KCommand + Fulminator is play that totals 9 mana, where blood moon can come down turn 3 and lock the game down right there. That said, I don't think there's a clear answer. Play to your meta.

Speaking of manabase, what is the best UB non-shockland dual to play, in your experience? In most of the winning decklists that I saw, there was no clear best option.

I'm now pretty certain that if you're on the discard lists, Darkslick Shores is what you want. Otherwise, the checklands seem slightly better since you're less likely to need the mana on T1.

Is the Burn matchup as bad as I expect it to be? In my experience with TarmoTwin, sticking Goyfs and racing was one of the very few routes to victory. What do we do with Grixis?

I'm at about a 50% winrate out of 6 matches (7-7 in games too). The games I've won have mostly been with the combo, since we're not that good at racing without an early Tasigur. I feel the discard lists are slightly better than the light splash lists here as well.

Quote from rafl »

Hey guys! Picking up Grixis recently after some experience with UR Twin. The thing that puzzles me the most is how to use Blood Moon here. In UR Twin I'd board it in against most 3-color decks in the format for the occasional free win. However, my experience with this deck is that Blood Moon hurts me equally or sometimes even more than my opponent. Am I playing them wrong or what? Should I bring it in only when it's super good (Tron?, Bloom)? Should I play something else entirely in its place?

It's obviously not as good as in a 2 color deck, but it's actually not that bad if you're not running cryptics, since you can often survive on 1 swamp 1 island, and with 2 island you can snap back blue spells. That said, it's been pretty unimpressive, probably because I haven't hit the matchups where it's really good much (no bloom yet). Blood Moon also hasn't been great against Tron. Between Oblivion Stone, and SB'd hate cards that can be cast off of a sphere/star, it's hard to have one stick and be good since they have so much colorless interaction. A crumble to dust effect seems better against them.

Quote from Hquinn_87 »

is this list good? Or have I change it?

Definitely fine to not main Tasigur. Your list seems a tad soft to affinity, but that's not necessarily something you have to change unless they make up a big portion of your meta.

Unless you have a card with BB in the side, I think the manabase is fine. I'd play with it and see if you're ever hurting for a B source before changing it.

That said, I think terminate <-> go for the throat should be swapped. The main reason I've seen for GftT is that it's a kill spell that can't be redirected to spellskite, which usually is relevant in postboard games only. While it does hit master of waves, I feel in the merfolk matchup in G1, we're either going to be overrun or combo off well before master is relevant. The Lords are the biggest targets in that matchup, not the master. I think it will hurt the affinity matchups (where there will be 0 targets) much more than terminate will hurt you in the merfolk matchup (where it will only sometimes not have a target). Besides, if they're dropping master with no Lords in play we can block it with snap or exarch.

Hey guys, I want to hear your thoughts on a card for Tasi-Twin (MB with both Twin AND Tasigur):

Faithless Looting as a replacement for Thought Scour

Pros:
Draw the next 2 instead of scrying it/milling it.
Does a better job at searching for combo.
Will not involuntarily throw your twin into the GY, exposing your gameplan G1 and also effectively reducing your odds of comboing.
Will not throw Snapcasters into the GY, instead letting you draw them and then throw instants/sorcs into GY to be snapcasted.
Flood Insurance.
Flashback.

Cons:
Sorcery Speed.
Card Disadvantage of -1 as opposed to the Neutral (Cantrip) Scour.
Can't be used against opponent's scry.


I'm wondering if the pros outweigh the cons here. I've Scoured my Twin into the GY more often than I'd like, taking away my surprise element G1 and prompting the opponent to be extra careful when I have 3 mana untapped. I figured this card will actually let me dig for combo or answers, alongside Serum Visions. Looting simply has a better synergy with Twin than Scour does, and we don't lose anything with regards to turn 2 Tasigur.

Hey guys, looking to start playing the "best deck" of the format! Here is the list I have planned out currently:


Just as a few questions: what matchups do we want to face as the more combo centric version and which ones do we want to face as the more midrange version? Also, is my SB too redundant in places in your opinion? And if so, how should I adjust it? I need to get a bit of practice in with the deck to feel in good control of the deck, but it seems really good to have essentially both twin and control in one deck.

Hey Red, I see you've crossed over to Combo country from Delver territory too!

If you're maindecking 2 tasigurs, you might want to feature at least 1 or 2 thought scours. I'm considering swapping my 2 scours out for Faithless looting, but the essence is having that 'dark ritual' effect with the graveyard filling.

You can either board out one electrolyze and one Kommand. I have 1 kommand main and 1 side, and 1 electrolyze side.

Izzet Charm I played in Blue Jund since it's flexible but still relatively cheap. It's weak permission/removal or gas. I wouldn't run it in the tempo version but it's a other option for those interested in looting effects.

For those running the discard deck with 2x Tas: Does anyone else feel the third Jace is clunky? There are times when I want to play him t2/3 but the yard is empty thanks to not drawing fetches. Graveyard synergy is tough with no scours. I tried adding a scour in one instance and dropping a Jace in a second instance, and running 2x Jace felt smoother. Also, scouring and revealing I'm on combo pisses me off lol. Is 2 Jace optimal while the third is just good, or do we really want that 3rd jace?

I actually think Jace is oftentimes just as good or even better in the situations that you have a near empty graveyard in the early/mid game and you're trying to sculpt your hand. Both halves of jace are great for the deck, and it is easy to get too focused on just trying to flip him asap. Looting is great too, don't forget that.

Quote from MarcWizard »

I'm wondering if the pros outweigh the cons here. I've Scoured my Twin into the GY more often than I'd like, taking away my surprise element G1 and prompting the opponent to be extra careful when I have 3 mana untapped. I figured this card will actually let me dig for combo or answers, alongside Serum Visions. Looting simply has a better synergy with Twin than Scour does, and we don't lose anything with regards to turn 2 Tasigur.

I'm trying to fight the blue mage instinct that dismisses looting immediately because card disadvantage, but I'm still not convinced it's good. I think the first thing to deal with is the fallacy that not milling things like snaps is a pro. The top of the library is unknown, so the only thing relevant about what you mill is how you can later use it as a resource (which is almost always a positive due to delve, snaps, KCommand), and the information (which is mostly negative). Really, the only pros are that it does a better job of digging for a specific card, and it gives card selection. I don't think that's enough to justify the cost of -1 card.

Quote from Redvader »

Just as a few questions: what matchups do we want to face as the more combo centric version and which ones do we want to face as the more midrange version? Also, is my SB too redundant in places in your opinion? And if so, how should I adjust it? I need to get a bit of practice in with the deck to feel in good control of the deck, but it seems really good to have essentially both twin and control in one deck.

Looks like a solid 75. I'm running the lists with more discard, but here's what I do in some of the more common matchups I've had on MTGO:

Twin Mirror: I usually take out the combo, but I'm not sure if that's correct. It's just really hard to win a fight over twin when the initiator is down 4 mana.
Burn: Long game doesn't favor us very much. Combo is best.
Jund: Generally combo goes out since it's hard to beat AD, and discard can make it tough to assemble the pieces.
Infect: Generally infect's going to be faster than us, and if you deal with their threats well you can easily just beat them down. I like taking out combo here, just so you can make sure to not die.
Affinity: Kind of same as infect. Because of KCommand, if we don't die we generally win.
Control: Not too sure about these matchups. I usually take the combo out though since it's the same deal as the twin mirrors. It's really hard to win a fight when you have to tap 4 to start something, but the long game doesn't really favor us either. Haven't played enough of these.

Quote from Alphez86 »

Re: the Burn matchup, I imagined that comboing off quickly was our main route to victory. I am not very comfortable with the idea of the matchup being 50/50 at best, though: it is quite common in my metagame and I would enjoy having an edge. I think I might try to squeeze a couple Vampiric Links in in the SB, even though I have no idea how to find room for them.

I've seen Vampiric link in a few sideboards but I'm skeptical how good they are. Outside of Tasigur, we don't really have anything that wears link that well. The other tech is Dragon's claw, which I'm trying out now. It's nice that it triggers off of some of our own spells.

Quote from jonathanveedot »

For those running the discard deck with 2x Tas: Does anyone else feel the third Jace is clunky? There are times when I want to play him t2/3 but the yard is empty thanks to not drawing fetches. Graveyard synergy is tough with no scours. I tried adding a scour in one instance and dropping a Jace in a second instance, and running 2x Jace felt smoother. Also, scouring and revealing I'm on combo pisses me off lol. Is 2 Jace optimal while the third is just good, or do we really want that 3rd jace?

I'm not sure if there is an optimal number since Jace isn't a centerpiece of the deck like he is in control. For me, I often value the loot effect he gives over being flipped in a lot of games. That said, I'm sticking with 2 purely because I don't want to pay for a 3rd until he drops when standard rotates out xD.

@redvader- this is how I think about it (and I'm not saying it is correct for everyone, but it is how I've personally been comfortable) when I was playing grixis control or blue jund, or whatever pure fair deck, I would find that I would have to just decide what decks to win and lose against in my sideboard, because you can't possibly cover everything. So you would have like ten slots in your board that were dedicated to the decks you thought you would face that weekend.
But with twin, I'm instead taking those ten slots and putting them in the mainboard (the combo) that essentially does the same thing, but much more efficiently. I play the deck as grixis control that has a way to fight against all of the random crap that modern can throw at you.
So I personally board out the combo pretty often because I'm confident in my control game (or may be it's because I play in a pretty fair, but wide meta), but there are some decks that just aren't looking to play fair, and that's when its REALLY nice to have that combo in your deck to fight back

Quote from aegisd23 »

Quote from MarcWizard »

I'm wondering if the pros outweigh the cons here. I've Scoured my Twin into the GY more often than I'd like, taking away my surprise element G1 and prompting the opponent to be extra careful when I have 3 mana untapped. I figured this card will actually let me dig for combo or answers, alongside Serum Visions. Looting simply has a better synergy with Twin than Scour does, and we don't lose anything with regards to turn 2 Tasigur.

I'm trying to fight the blue mage instinct that dismisses looting immediately because card disadvantage, but I'm still not convinced it's good. I think the first thing to deal with is the fallacy that not milling things like snaps is a pro. The top of the library is unknown, so the only thing relevant about what you mill is how you can later use it as a resource (which is almost always a positive due to delve, snaps, KCommand), and the information (which is mostly negative). Really, the only pros are that it does a better job of digging for a specific card, and it gives card selection. I don't think that's enough to justify the cost of -1 card.

I've seen Vampiric link in a few sideboards but I'm skeptical how good they are. Outside of Tasigur, we don't really have anything that wears link that well. The other tech is Dragon's claw, which I'm trying out now. It's nice that it triggers off of some of our own spells.

Welling, milling the Twin is already irrevocably bad. Milling a snapcaster simply means you won't see it until turn 4, and if you delve that away, well. With Looting, if my objective was to delve I'd at least get to choose to delve away those extra lands, or a serum visions, or maybe a mana leak that is no longer relevant.

With Looting I get to choose. I get to sculpt my hand. Technically, casting Looting the first time is like casting Baby Jace and instantly getting 2 activations off before he eats a "bolt" that the enemy doesn't have to cast, for 1 red mana. Yes, I'll agree the biggest mental roadblock is that disadvantage of -1.

With regards to Vampiric Link, I'm guessing you've never cast one on an Eidolon of the Great Revel. Yup, you'll have to have done that once before you become a Believer. Just once.

The looting isn't like that. It is much worse, unfortunately. In the situation you describe, you end up even on cards with your opponent. With looting, you end up down a card. In the days of treasure cruise delver (where you were rolling in card advantage) I tried the looting to fuel delve and pitch extra lands and such. But it just isn't good for a grindy deck that isn't getting value like dredge from the looting. Putting yourself down a card is very, very bad in any game that goes to grind.

Agreed. Even in the 'cruising days, looting wasn't great. You want all 4 scours before you want the first looting, especially in this deck. We are a control/combo hybrid. Only GY synergistic combos truly use looting to its full potential.

Quote from Alphez86 »

@ aegisd23: as Marc said, the point of Vampiric Link is mostly to blank Eidolons. Due to the wording of this card, we gain life regardless of who controls the enchanted creature. Just remember that this is a triggered ability, unlike Lifelink (which is a static ability): here we take the damage first, then the lifegain goes on the stack. We could die before that resolves

It does better than "blank" Eidolons. The Eidolon starts working for us. They cast a bolt? We gain 2 life before the bolt hits. They have to remove their own Eidolon first, which means they're down a card (2, actually) for our 1 link. And we get back the 2 life we spent casting the Link anyway. So no matter what happens, once we slap a Link on an Eidolon, you're actually pretty much guaranteed to win, unless they're maybe maindecking Skullcrack.

Quote from tjd2191 »

The looting isn't like that. It is much worse, unfortunately. In the situation you describe, you end up even on cards with your opponent. With looting, you end up down a card. In the days of treasure cruise delver (where you were rolling in card advantage) I tried the looting to fuel delve and pitch extra lands and such. But it just isn't good for a grindy deck that isn't getting value like dredge from the looting. Putting yourself down a card is very, very bad in any game that goes to grind.

Is the loss of that 1 card really not worth the extreme amount of control you're getting, along with revealing less information to the opponent? I find myself getting annoyed everytime I scour a pestermite, exarch or twin on G1 and the opponent nods knowingly. Aside from giving away that critical information, you've also just lost either 1 of 6 critical creature components, or 25% of the resources that you don't have any cards to help recover. Its these scenarios that are making me think hard about alternatives to scour, as attractive as the neutral CA is. If we're talking grindy games, a looting in the GY is basically 2x Desolate Lighthouse activations for 2R. A scour, on the other hand, goes in and is hardly ever a snapcaster target, and its value in Delving is the same as faithless looting anyway.

That pestermite could have just as likely been on the bottom of your deck and you never see it anyway. You have kolaghans command to bring it back if you really need it. The information you give your opponent isn't anywhere near as important as the loss of a card. It really does matter that much.

Please stop making these comparisons. None of them are taking into consideration that you are using a card to do the looting. If you keep testing the looting, I'm confident you will come to the same conclusion that we have. I appreciate your effort in trying to find alternatives and different options for the deck, but unfortunately I don't think this one works.

Quote from tjd2191 »

That pestermite could have just as likely been on the bottom of your deck and you never see it anyway. You have kolaghans command to bring it back if you really need it. The information you give your opponent isn't anywhere near as important as the loss of a card. It really does matter that much.

Well if we're using anecdotes, I could quote the possibility of milling 2 twins, reducing your combo % by half, and then losing the game when you could have won by comboing off. Oh wait, that happened to me on Monday, where I scoured 2 twins, drew a 5th land, and basically continued to flood while my opponent slowly got his GrisHOALbrand going.

Or milling Exarch and a land while I'm stuck on 3 lands and holding 2 twins and tasigur in my hand, and then drawing a Terminate/Bolt. That was last Friday against Burn. Oh, I needed those cards so bad.

Saying Kommand is an out to milling any creature is insane, because I have 1 main and 1 side. I'm not going to have it everytime I need to retrieve a creature I've milled, and it won't always be a good play anyway, instead of having used that 3 mana to instead cast the creature and go off on the next turn.

Maybe I've just been having a run of bad luck with scour. But I'm telling ya, scour has seriously been ruining my day. I'm starting to feel dread everytime I cast it. Like, "Oh god, how are you going to screw me over today?"