As both, a RG and Mono U Tron player i can tell you: Molten Rain does not hurt as much as completely denying tron. So Crumble to Dust seems like a good alternative. Also some sort of land destruction and Surgical Extraction can do the trick.
Depending on how many K-Commands you play in your MD, i would consider adding one to the board. Other than that is looks pretty solid.
Out of curiosity: What are Pia and Kiran Nalaar in there for? Am i overlooking something?
I was testing Pia for grindy matchups, I saw some recent lists running it in the side, I assume it acts like a Lingering Souls? Perhaps I will try 2 Crumble to Dust against Tron. I'm running 2 K-Commands and that would be my third in the SB. Is Vandalblast or Shatterstorm better in a Jace list? Vandalblast seems powerful since you can pay the overload cost when casting with Jace.
Do you guys think Countersquall could be 1-of in our MD/SB? I feel like a hardcounter with some burn attached to it could be useful in some matchups, even though it is conditional.
If you're on a discard list which leans heavier on black and you want to pack a negate effect, then I think countersquall is fine. Otherwise, it's probably not worth having to get black. I can think this is relevant in say the burn matchup where if you don't want to fetch basic swamp, it's going to be hard to find a good time to fetch for a tapped black source.
Any suggestions for sideboards in a meta of Jund, GR Tron, Control (Esper, Mono U Tron), Merfolk, Affinity and other GBx? I'm currently playing the proactive Jace discard one which I'm having fun with. In a Tron heavy meta, should I be packing 2 Molten Rain and a Crumble to Dust? I don't have Bloodmoon, so mine currently looks like this:
It's a little difficult without seeing the main deck, but looking at your meta, I feel like 3 dispel is too many, especially with the 2 duress already. If there isn't much burn, I would also consider thoughtseize maybe in place of 1 duress.
Is Vandalblast or Shatterstorm better in a Jace list? Vandalblast seems powerful since you can pay the overload cost when casting with Jace.
I mean shatterstorm basically does the same thing as overloaded vandalblast but for 1 cheaper so I don't think that's a good comparison. It depends more on what matchups you're worried about. Shatterstorm is probably better if it's mainly affinity, vandalblast if you want cheap artifact hate against OStone/Vial for Tron/Merfolk.
I was testing Pia for grindy matchups, I saw some recent lists running it in the side, I assume it acts like a Lingering Souls? Perhaps I will try 2 Crumble to Dust against Tron. I'm running 2 K-Commands and that would be my third in the SB. Is Vandalblast or Shatterstorm better in a Jace list? Vandalblast seems powerful since you can pay the overload cost when casting with Jace.
As someone who has played blue jund, the interaction between Jace and Vandalblast is awesome; you can kick something off the board early and then overload it later.
On Pia and Kiran, it's a great value card. 3 bodies, and a possible instant burn to the face if you have nothing else to put mana into. I'm working on a slightly midrangey Jace build (5 tappers, 3 twins) with 2 Tas and 1 PKN; and Pia and Kiran is great with Splinter Twin. Slapping a Twin on Pia and Kiran will give you a token engine to close out the game if the opponent does not have an immediate answer. If you happen to draw into a tapper next turn that's 4 tokens more..
I like it because you can get a turn 4 combo, then board into a diluted blue jund (as they hopefully overboard to kill the combo); and also, you can grind them out as blue jund and hold your combo pieces, then leave in your combo game 2 (as they board for grixis control/b.jund).
I'll post the list once I can access it in case anyone is interested. It's felt pretty strong in testing (though I haven't tested vs tron yet) and I'll probably switch over to it once I get the third Jace.
I put in Counter Squall when I was running more black cards MD, but once I shifted a lot of them out, its not worth worrying about the fetching for a black source when I like Cryptics more.
Trying out this SB:
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Languish
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vandalblast
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Crumble to Dust
I like a 1/1 split of Blood Moon/Crumble to Dust just cus it seems like Knightfall is becoming a thing, and each can be a one-of in different matches where you might want land hate other than tron.
Hi guys, I've just disassembled my Grixis Delver to form up Tasi-Twin, and will be playing at an FNM tonight with my deck.
I came in just to ask if anyone had tried Pia and Kiraan Nalaar. what do ya know, its being discussed on pg 53!
I think they're a better lategame piece than tasigur when you have a Twin in hand. As someone has mentioned, it turns them into a 2-thopters-a-turn token generator, which is pretty much game if you also have the mana to turn them into shocks. As also mentioned by the same poster, any mite/exarch drawn afterward will produce another 2 tokens ETB. So much synergy!
Dropping Tasigur entirely isn't that enticing to me though. I was thinking 1 Mom/Pop main, 1 Mom/Pop and 2 Tasigurs in the side, for playing Twin focus G1 and possibly siding out into grind-mode G2 depending on MU.
On a separate note, who has experience with SB Radiant Flames? I've sleeved up 2 for my sideboard because I have a healthy number of elves at my LGS. Sometimes, you need 1 extra damage to clear the board entirely or hit nothing at all (2 Lords in play, for example).
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What are your thoughts? I have found Sunken Hollow to be a nice "budget" alternative to watery grave as another fetchable U/B Source.
I am not really that content with my sideboard though. I am not sure which matchups are really really bad and which ones are really good for us. I come from RG Tron and i imagine that the "bad" matchups are definitely not the same. Could someone enlighten me for what i should prepare my board?
Also: What are your thought on Izzet Staticaster against tokens? To be honest, Anger of the Gods looks stronger and more versatile. But it can only be used twice, at best.
If you're playing Cryptic Commands you're not really positioned to use tangolands effectively. I'm running a singleton Hollow as well, it fits when your curve doesn't involve any UUU costs. Island - Mountain - Hollow are my most frequent plays when I'm up against burn. Otherwise its business as usual fetching shocks and bolting ourselves.
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I get your point. So what could i run instead of the cryptic? I have found it to be insane value. Also any other blue land would enable it. It's not perfect, but still good enough i think
I get your point. So what could i run instead of the cryptic? I have found it to be insane value. Also any other blue land would enable it. It's not perfect, but still good enough i think
The ubiquity of Dispel, and fast decks like merfolk, elves and burn has effectively stopped me from playing that card. I now count on Snares, Pierces, Deprives and Leaks for my counter package. I also intend to pick up Countersquall, I have heard its a much better Negate.
My shifting away from Cryptic and experimenting with the painless Tangoland are both products of my reaction to increasing numbers of burn and elves in my meta. I have 2 Radiant Flames and a Pyroclasm in my sideboard. So do take this context in mind when considering these options.
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Thanks for the heads up! I am preparing my list for a (sort of) big tournament with about 50-60 players. From my experience i can tell that the meta there is very diverse. Some BWx Token, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Twin, Infect some "rogue" decks like 5-c Tribal Flames and Sultai Control are there aswell. I think Cryptic is good enough to keep in this meta. (I also want to play the Hollow because it is an expedition i pulled)
I am just unsure about what matchups are "bad" for us. Since we can always board into a grindy deck i don't think Jund would be a problem. So far i have only played very little against decks like Burn or Affinity. I imagine affinity to be pretty easy for us due to 4x Bolt and 3-4x K-Command being a 2for1 90% of the time.
Thanks for the heads up! I am preparing my list for a (sort of) big tournament with about 50-60 players. From my experience i can tell that the meta there is very diverse. Some BWx Token, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Twin, Infect some "rogue" decks like 5-c Tribal Flames and Sultai Control are there aswell. I think Cryptic is good enough to keep in this meta. (I also want to play the Hollow because it is an expedition i pulled)
I am just unsure about what matchups are "bad" for us. Since we can always board into a grindy deck i don't think Jund would be a problem. So far i have only played very little against decks like Burn or Affinity. I imagine affinity to be pretty easy for us due to 4x Bolt and 3-4x K-Command being a 2for1 90% of the time.
It is easy to underestimate Affinity when you have little experience against it. Arcbound ravagers, steel overseers, cranial platings and other such redundancies will be a rude awakening. A lot of people say "oh, you've got Kommand, you're set" and its true that Kommand is a 2-for-1, but that hardly means the 2 Kommands will mean an easy win. First, you have to draw them. Second, they're only online turn 3. Against Affinity, they may already be swinging in with a Etched Champion wearing a plating. And when you Kommand, they sacrifice the targets to Ravager and grow it. Vandalblast, Pyroclasm/Radiant Flames all continue to be very useful sideboards. The reason Ravagers are so expensive is because they basically make your removals like a dog chasing a frisbee around. I've nearly lost a match where the opponent activated and then threw all the counters on an Inkmoth in response to Kommand.
To beat Affinity, please give it the respect it deserves. I've found that when I'm conservative with my damage from lands and basically treat it as the aggro deck that it is (similar to how i fight burn), my win % goes up considerably. Before this, I was dying to exactly lethal damage or 21 where I would have combo'ed out or stabilized next turn with a wipe (EE for 2, or Overload VB).
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I play 2 K-Commands in the board aswell. I can go up to a total of: 4x Bolt, 3x Terminate, 4x K-Command. One of my best friends plays affinity and i have a decent winrate against him so i really tend to underestimate affinity. I will give the more defensive fetching a try.
Out of curiosity: How do you board against affinity? I usually go -3 Remand, -1 Spellsnare - 2Tasigur / +2 K-Command, +1 Terminate, +2 Anger of the gods, +1 Dismember (For Ensoul Artifact on Darksteel)
So far i have been very content with this boarding. Anything else you would recommend? Is Hurkyl's Recall worth playing for us? I always deemed it not good because affinity can just deploy its hand in the following turn.
I like keeping in Spell Snare against affinity, since it's an answer to their payoff cards in Ravager, Overseer, Plating. The plan might be weaker on the draw since there are hands where they can drop those on T1, but I like having them on the play.
@mrc- This is incredibly similar to what I have been running (spellwise). Ive removing it so far. Untapping my Jace with a combo creature is one my favorite interactions. (Especially in response to a removal spell, so you can flip and save him). I love the information that the hand disruption gives and being able to punch a hole in our opponents plan and exploiting it with this deck is quite easy.
This does sacrifice the mono-instant speed part of the deck, and this version doesnt play tempo anywhere near as well. (Hand disruption and jace aren't good tempo plays at all) but the ability to go long and eventually just force through your combo (Which gives a lot of inevitability) is great.
As for your card choices in particular, I'm sure you know about the manabase, so I won't specifically go into that. I also think that this version is quite solidly 3 color. The other versions are closer to just UR splash black. So I think playing blood moon is a risky proposition. The deck that blood moon is the best against (bloom titan) we get a lot of help from hand disruption. The other decks in the format we want mana denial against (tron, BGx, etc) a card like molten rain or even crumble to dust can be fine. I think these are safer options over blood moon.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar have been great for me so far. They kind give a lingering souls-like card, which can be decent against the go wide decks and the grindy 1-for-1 decks. Not to mention that they wear a splinter twin pretty well. Haha. (Its fringe, but possible). Rise/fall is another card I've been a huge fan of for a long time in grindy grixis decks. It also helps that opponents really like to hold their cards against twin, and the hymn to tourach effect can be a blowout.
Interested in hearing how 4x Jace works out! I'm thinking of cutting one snap for another Jace myself as having him in the early game is great. I'm running Rob Chase's list but with a MD Thoughtseize. I find having more untapped black sources such as Darkslick Shores to be pretty decent so far in avoiding some pain from the mana base.
A few words on certain card choices:
-2 Dreadbore over 2 Terminate because I'm not exactly sure we need instant removal for any creature, and Dreadbore also hits planeswalkers like Karn Liberated and Liliana of the Veil
-3 Lightning Bolt split with 1 Flameslash simply for Spellskite or Linvala, Keeper of Silence
-3 Lightning Bolt also helps when I actually do need instant removal (such as against Podless Pod
I have no idea how to go about the sideboard yet: I don't exactly know which matchups are favorable, even, or unfavorable for Grixis Twin.
I've only been play testing the Jace version of Grixis Twin at the moment against Tron and Affinity for a bit, but here are some comments.
- Terminate over Dreadbore can often be helpful, e.g. destroying the modular target of Ravager, killing a manland, destroying a creature about to be equipped by plating in affinity. Even stopping the combo in mirror matches!
- 4 Kolaghan's mainboard seems a little heavy, running 3 Cryptics depends on the meta if there's a bunch of Dispel it might not be so good
- 3 Desolate Lighthouse, this might make assembling Cryptic mana a bit more difficult
Depending on how many K-Commands you play in your MD, i would consider adding one to the board. Other than that is looks pretty solid.
Out of curiosity: What are Pia and Kiran Nalaar in there for? Am i overlooking something?
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It's a little difficult without seeing the main deck, but looking at your meta, I feel like 3 dispel is too many, especially with the 2 duress already. If there isn't much burn, I would also consider thoughtseize maybe in place of 1 duress.
I mean shatterstorm basically does the same thing as overloaded vandalblast but for 1 cheaper so I don't think that's a good comparison. It depends more on what matchups you're worried about. Shatterstorm is probably better if it's mainly affinity, vandalblast if you want cheap artifact hate against OStone/Vial for Tron/Merfolk.
As someone who has played blue jund, the interaction between Jace and Vandalblast is awesome; you can kick something off the board early and then overload it later.
On Pia and Kiran, it's a great value card. 3 bodies, and a possible instant burn to the face if you have nothing else to put mana into. I'm working on a slightly midrangey Jace build (5 tappers, 3 twins) with 2 Tas and 1 PKN; and Pia and Kiran is great with Splinter Twin. Slapping a Twin on Pia and Kiran will give you a token engine to close out the game if the opponent does not have an immediate answer. If you happen to draw into a tapper next turn that's 4 tokens more..
I like it because you can get a turn 4 combo, then board into a diluted blue jund (as they hopefully overboard to kill the combo); and also, you can grind them out as blue jund and hold your combo pieces, then leave in your combo game 2 (as they board for grixis control/b.jund).
I'll post the list once I can access it in case anyone is interested. It's felt pretty strong in testing (though I haven't tested vs tron yet) and I'll probably switch over to it once I get the third Jace.
Edit - here is said list:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Drowned Catacomb
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Enchantment (3)
3x Splinter Twin
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
2x Pestermite
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (11)
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Remand
3x Terminate
Sorcery (8)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Blood Moon
1x Crumble to Dust
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Negate
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Rise/Fall
1x Spellskite
Spirits
Trying out this SB:
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Languish
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vandalblast
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Crumble to Dust
I came in just to ask if anyone had tried Pia and Kiraan Nalaar. what do ya know, its being discussed on pg 53!
I think they're a better lategame piece than tasigur when you have a Twin in hand. As someone has mentioned, it turns them into a 2-thopters-a-turn token generator, which is pretty much game if you also have the mana to turn them into shocks. As also mentioned by the same poster, any mite/exarch drawn afterward will produce another 2 tokens ETB. So much synergy!
Dropping Tasigur entirely isn't that enticing to me though. I was thinking 1 Mom/Pop main, 1 Mom/Pop and 2 Tasigurs in the side, for playing Twin focus G1 and possibly siding out into grind-mode G2 depending on MU.
On a separate note, who has experience with SB Radiant Flames? I've sleeved up 2 for my sideboard because I have a healthy number of elves at my LGS. Sometimes, you need 1 extra damage to clear the board entirely or hit nothing at all (2 Lords in play, for example).
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If you're playing Cryptic Commands you're not really positioned to use tangolands effectively. I'm running a singleton Hollow as well, it fits when your curve doesn't involve any UUU costs. Island - Mountain - Hollow are my most frequent plays when I'm up against burn. Otherwise its business as usual fetching shocks and bolting ourselves.
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The ubiquity of Dispel, and fast decks like merfolk, elves and burn has effectively stopped me from playing that card. I now count on Snares, Pierces, Deprives and Leaks for my counter package. I also intend to pick up Countersquall, I have heard its a much better Negate.
My shifting away from Cryptic and experimenting with the painless Tangoland are both products of my reaction to increasing numbers of burn and elves in my meta. I have 2 Radiant Flames and a Pyroclasm in my sideboard. So do take this context in mind when considering these options.
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I am just unsure about what matchups are "bad" for us. Since we can always board into a grindy deck i don't think Jund would be a problem. So far i have only played very little against decks like Burn or Affinity. I imagine affinity to be pretty easy for us due to 4x Bolt and 3-4x K-Command being a 2for1 90% of the time.
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It is easy to underestimate Affinity when you have little experience against it. Arcbound ravagers, steel overseers, cranial platings and other such redundancies will be a rude awakening. A lot of people say "oh, you've got Kommand, you're set" and its true that Kommand is a 2-for-1, but that hardly means the 2 Kommands will mean an easy win. First, you have to draw them. Second, they're only online turn 3. Against Affinity, they may already be swinging in with a Etched Champion wearing a plating. And when you Kommand, they sacrifice the targets to Ravager and grow it. Vandalblast, Pyroclasm/Radiant Flames all continue to be very useful sideboards. The reason Ravagers are so expensive is because they basically make your removals like a dog chasing a frisbee around. I've nearly lost a match where the opponent activated and then threw all the counters on an Inkmoth in response to Kommand.
To beat Affinity, please give it the respect it deserves. I've found that when I'm conservative with my damage from lands and basically treat it as the aggro deck that it is (similar to how i fight burn), my win % goes up considerably. Before this, I was dying to exactly lethal damage or 21 where I would have combo'ed out or stabilized next turn with a wipe (EE for 2, or Overload VB).
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Out of curiosity: How do you board against affinity? I usually go -3 Remand, -1 Spellsnare - 2Tasigur / +2 K-Command, +1 Terminate, +2 Anger of the gods, +1 Dismember (For Ensoul Artifact on Darksteel)
So far i have been very content with this boarding. Anything else you would recommend? Is Hurkyl's Recall worth playing for us? I always deemed it not good because affinity can just deploy its hand in the following turn.
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4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Enchantments
4 Splinter Twin
Other Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Remand
2 Terminate
1 Dispel
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
4 Island
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Dispel
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Kolaghan's Command
UR Twin - RIP
This does sacrifice the mono-instant speed part of the deck, and this version doesnt play tempo anywhere near as well. (Hand disruption and jace aren't good tempo plays at all) but the ability to go long and eventually just force through your combo (Which gives a lot of inevitability) is great.
As for your card choices in particular, I'm sure you know about the manabase, so I won't specifically go into that. I also think that this version is quite solidly 3 color. The other versions are closer to just UR splash black. So I think playing blood moon is a risky proposition. The deck that blood moon is the best against (bloom titan) we get a lot of help from hand disruption. The other decks in the format we want mana denial against (tron, BGx, etc) a card like molten rain or even crumble to dust can be fine. I think these are safer options over blood moon.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar have been great for me so far. They kind give a lingering souls-like card, which can be decent against the go wide decks and the grindy 1-for-1 decks. Not to mention that they wear a splinter twin pretty well. Haha. (Its fringe, but possible). Rise/fall is another card I've been a huge fan of for a long time in grindy grixis decks. It also helps that opponents really like to hold their cards against twin, and the hymn to tourach effect can be a blowout.
4 Deceiver Exarch
1 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendillion Clique
Spells
4 Serum Visions
3 Splinter Twin
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Flameslash
4 Remand
2 Dreadbore
4 Kolaghan's Command
3 Cryptic Command
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
A few words on certain card choices:
-2 Dreadbore over 2 Terminate because I'm not exactly sure we need instant removal for any creature, and Dreadbore also hits planeswalkers like Karn Liberated and Liliana of the Veil
-3 Lightning Bolt split with 1 Flameslash simply for Spellskite or Linvala, Keeper of Silence
-3 Lightning Bolt also helps when I actually do need instant removal (such as against Podless Pod
I have no idea how to go about the sideboard yet: I don't exactly know which matchups are favorable, even, or unfavorable for Grixis Twin.
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- Terminate over Dreadbore can often be helpful, e.g. destroying the modular target of Ravager, killing a manland, destroying a creature about to be equipped by plating in affinity. Even stopping the combo in mirror matches!
- 4 Kolaghan's mainboard seems a little heavy, running 3 Cryptics depends on the meta if there's a bunch of Dispel it might not be so good
- 3 Desolate Lighthouse, this might make assembling Cryptic mana a bit more difficult