MTG Salvation

Thread locked and archived (1/23/2016)


Modern Twin comes in many different colors and varieties, and the deck underwent a recent evolution with the Fate Reforged and Dragons of Tarkir expansions. Tasigur, the Golden Fang, aka black Tarmogoyf with an upside, put Grixis colors back on the map and Twin was a natural home for the Shaman. Dragons of Tarkir added the powerful Kolaghan's Command to the mix, and out of these cards (and other old-school staples like Terminate) came the Grixis Twin deck as we know it today.

Here's Arnaud Hocquemiller's Grixis Twin list from GP Copenhagen, where he piloted the deck to a Top 8 finish. GP Copenhagen was also a huge Grixis Twin event generally, and Arnaud's list exemplifies these builds.



If you are looking for a pre-DTK build, Todd Anderson piloted a Grixis Twin list to a 21 point constructed finish at PT Fate Reforged. This was the Grixis Twin list that really kicked the archetype off, and Todd made day 2 of the PT. Here is the list:



If you want a new take on old-school UR Twin, an alternate Tempo Twin option aside from Temur Twin, or just like playing powerful URB cards like Snapcaster, Tasigur, and the Commands in the same deck, then Grixis Twin is the build for you.

MOD NOTE: This thread is solely for discussion of the Grixis Twin deck. You can find the other Twin discussions below:
UR Twin
Temur/Tarmo (RUG) Twin
Grixis/Tasigur (UBR) Twin
UWR Twin
If you see discussion activity in the wrong thread, please report it and let mods look into it. Thanks!

Here we go! So, I'm a converted Cruel Control player who got a little tired of Draw-Go and digging (RIP DTT) for Cruel Ultimatums. I'm all in on Grixis Twin now as I really like the way that Twin plays an early tempo/control game, then forces the opponent to either respect the combo and succumb to death by 1000 cuts or let their guard down and get knocked out by a haymaker. Grixis colors should also give us lots of flexibility to adapt our lists to any type of meta. I'm hoping that this thread gets an experienced caretaker and I'm looking forward to participating.

Here's where I'm at after PT FRF (still working out the sideboard). It's heavily based off of Señor del Moral Leon's list, but with the Grixis elements added.



What are everyone's thoughts regarding hand disruption. Initially, it felt like the big draw to Grixis (besides Tasigur of course), but playing only a pair of spells feels a bit light. Do you all think that the primary focus of going Grixis should be to pack a mixed playset of Thoughtseize or Inquisition? Should we allow upping the number of discard spells to interfere with our early game counters and removal? One could argue that they provide similar effects and can protect a turn 5 combo equally as well as Dispel.

I think consensus is general is that discard is not that good although you can still delve it away but i think 3 or 4 is still fine.. And I think it is also rather dependent if your plan A is combo or plan A is beatdown as well. If you want to have more beatdown, probably might want to lower the combo pieces to 5 creatures and 3 twin? but if you are going for the more combo base, i guess that is still good.. Will probably need to test it to see how it goes though.

Discard is not where Grixis Twin wants to be, at least in game one. With so few sources of advantage our best bet is to tempo out our opponent rather than dragging the game into a midrange slugfest that we are likely to lose.

Here is my current setup.



I am considering Thought Scour over Gitaxian Probe but being able to play it for free synergizes well with serum visions and snapcaster while Though Scour works better with Tasigur and snapcaster.

For post-board threats, I've been thinking about throwing in a copy of Silumgar, the Drifting Death as it's a resilient threat against basically everything except Liliana and sweepers. It can block like a champ and can repeatedly wipe Lingering Souls tokens away provided they haven't gotten access to Gavony by then. The drawback is that it's mega slow...probably Olivia does the job better and faster.

Thoughts?

Well since we got our own thread in the end let me give a tournament report to maybe get things rolling a bit. Went on an FNM yesterday with Todd Anderson's list. Only MB change was a 2/2 split between pestermites and exarchs cause I expected some aggros and wanted a good blocker. Also some changes in the SB to fit a metagame w/o any affinity and more aggressive decks. Final resulta was 2-1-1 to a 4rth place.

Match 1 against Faeries 1-2: Game 1 was pretty easy, he got stuck with 2 dead mistbinds in his hand, I got around his removal and won with tasigur beatdowns. Games 2 got me stuck on 1 and 2 lands for a few turns and he just killed me with SSS and Vendilion beatdowns. Game 3 was pretty close but resolved biterrblossom is pretty hard to beat. I got him down to 5 and earlier I had spent 5 points of burn on a lili so that is something to consider. It was a hard MU overall though.
Match 2 against Burn 2-1: Game one Tasigur to victory mostly after he run out of gas and I had stabilized at around 10. Game 2 he was way too fast. Game 3 was T3 deceiver and he spent 2 bolts on it, T4 again exarch and T5 twin.
Match 3 against Kiki-Control: Game 1 he misplayed quite a bit, won with tasigur beatdowns. Game 2 I got mana screwed quite hard, he resolved a geist with counter back up, dead.. Game 3 It was super long but after 2 Thoughseizes (which I brought in my SB) stripping him off his counters/removals and eventually won with exarch into twin. Again though, I was stuck on 4 lands for a million turns.
Match 4 against UR delver/blood moon: Game 1 she was extremely fast and had all the counter backup to save her young pyromancer who won the game. Game 2 Again tasigur resolved and beat her down. Game 3 went super long, went on 5 turns, in the end we drew 1-1.

Overall I has extremely happy with how the deck played. Tasigur is amazing and the threat of combo around the corner is insane. The only problem I had was with mana screws. I kept getting screwed, or stuck on 3-4 lands. I think I might try to go up to 23 lands instead of 22 cutting 1 thoughtscour. 3 seemed a bit excessive. Grim Lavamancer overperformed against the more aggressive decks (burn and UR delver). He was a must-answer threat when resolved.

I wanted to post my list and chime in. I disagree that there is no place for Discard in Grixis Twin. Grixis Twin isn't only for those that want to do RUG but don't have Goyfs so jam in Tasigur. Is it where the Pros are? Well, not those that did well at the Pro Tour on Twin. Note that I'm basically just splashing U for the Combo, some Snaps and Dispels that I specifically want vs Burn and Infect. I don't really regard this as a Tempo List and am looking to not completely stall out in the late game. Let's call Plan A Beatdown with an oops, I just won on T4, Combo finish. I've gone so far as to cut a couple Bolts for Terminates. Note that part of why I can do that is that I can simply lean on the Discard as removal a bit if I have to.

Jury is still out on Humble Defector. Keep in mind that I'm never just cashing him in for just 2 cards unless I've got a plan that wipes the board, I can clear him with Olivia or Lili, or I'm digging for mana in which case I'm already far behind and need a Hail Mary. I really do regard him first and foremost as a Twin target. He's 2 CMC, can beat down as well as Snappy and will at least trade for a card. Sometimes I get a couple cards off him late game to keep the pressure going. Only time will tell whether it's cute or good but I'm already down to 3 but that might be b/c I'm trying to do way too much in the Snap/Spellskite Slot.

Tourney Report! On Wed I went 2-1-1

Round 1 vs Burn
I got him down to 1 G3, before losing. Stupid Burn. I might have had it if I had dropped a twiddler into an empty board. I was saving it for Hellsparks and Goblin Guides but could have used the clock. He was also a new player, which certainly helped.

Round 2 vs the Mirror
Well, not really the Mirror but another Grixis Twin list with a dash of discard. I beat down with Defectors G1, G2 I had a misplay and he was able to get enough cards out of Tas and Loothouse that I couldn't keep up. Wurmcoil might have got there though. G3 went to time.

Round 3 vs Elves
Olivia and Discard, what can I say.

Round 4 vs UW Gifts Tron
I don't think he was running Geist though. Seemed all in on the Gifts plan.
G1 he was able to get Linvala out but I had Olivia out and stole her to then swing for lethal. G2 he got out Linvala and shut me down. G3 he got greedy with Gifts. He cast it in response to a TS with me representing Slaughter Games. I let it resolve and then was able to nab Elesh Norn. Slaughter Games took Unburial Rites and I was able to land Twin on a Defector.

I was generally happy with the list. I felt the power was there and my losses came down to good old pilot error.

Our LGS meta is still new for modern since the store is not even a year old yet it's starting to develop. Lately it kinda boomed though with Boggle, Dredgevine, Junk, UWR control, Infect and a few rather interesting decks popping up. I've been using Sasky's original Grixis list as a starting point and slowly converting it towards my meta and having fun since i only play Twin on paper since i can't afford to buy it yet on MTGO. I am considering pulling out a Thought Scour for a Izzet Charm though. The utility on it is better then a turn 2 Taisgar. Also debating on removing a Single Tasigur, the Golden Fang for a Vendilion Clique. Any suggestions for my SB regarding my meta?

Welcome to the new home of RUG/Grixis Tempo Twin!

After extensive discussion with Twin players and amongst the staff, we have split off the traditional UR Twin into its own thread in Tier 1 with the URx Tempo Twin variants (RUG/Grixis) getting their own thread here in Tier 2. UWR Twin will still remain its own separate thread for the foreseeable future. This was a balance between splitting the decks on color lines but also on playstyle lines; instead of having two separate threads for RUG and Grixis, we combined them in one thread so all the URx Tempo Twin options can be weighed. But it was important, we felt, to separate that from the traditional UR Twin, which remains a Tier 1 powerhouse to an extent that the URx Tempo Twin decks aren't quite at.

So if anyone has any feedback or comments on this, feel free to PM me about it. For now, let's keep the thread discussion on deck development and not on classifications; too much of that has already happened and the Goyfs/Tas's are lonely.

Exciting times.

I have a lot of this from playing around with grixis colours when Khans dropped (failed attempts at cruel control, a strange grixis delver/burn..), any inkling of a Splinter Twin reprint in MM2?

I'll put some lists together, but was wondering if Murderous Cut or Telling Time have any place in a deck or is the latter more for a straight UR Twin?

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Welcome to the new home of RUG/Grixis Tempo Twin!

After extensive discussion with Twin players and amongst the staff, we have split off the traditional UR Twin into its own thread in Tier 1 with the URx Tempo Twin variants (RUG/Grixis) getting their own thread here in Tier 2. UWR Twin will still remain its own separate thread for the foreseeable future. This was a balance between splitting the decks on color lines but also on playstyle lines; instead of having two separate threads for RUG and Grixis, we combined them in one thread so all the URx Tempo Twin options can be weighed. But it was important, we felt, to separate that from the traditional UR Twin, which remains a Tier 1 powerhouse to an extent that the URx Tempo Twin decks aren't quite at.

So if anyone has any feedback or comments on this, feel free to PM me about it. For now, let's keep the thread discussion on deck development and not on classifications; too much of that has already happened and the Goyfs/Tas's are lonely.

My only concern is what happens when RUG Twin goes up to Tier 1 and Grixis doesn't, or viceversa. I'm a long, long time Twin player (Tarmogoyf Twin being my favourite since around 3 years ago) and I'm pretty sure it will soon rise to the top again.
Grixis I don't see it that good; Tasigur is great but I dont feel it's gonna be Tier 1 anytime soon

Quote from Danteh »

Quote from ktkenshinx »

Welcome to the new home of RUG/Grixis Tempo Twin!

After extensive discussion with Twin players and amongst the staff, we have split off the traditional UR Twin into its own thread in Tier 1 with the URx Tempo Twin variants (RUG/Grixis) getting their own thread here in Tier 2. UWR Twin will still remain its own separate thread for the foreseeable future. This was a balance between splitting the decks on color lines but also on playstyle lines; instead of having two separate threads for RUG and Grixis, we combined them in one thread so all the URx Tempo Twin options can be weighed. But it was important, we felt, to separate that from the traditional UR Twin, which remains a Tier 1 powerhouse to an extent that the URx Tempo Twin decks aren't quite at.

So if anyone has any feedback or comments on this, feel free to PM me about it. For now, let's keep the thread discussion on deck development and not on classifications; too much of that has already happened and the Goyfs/Tas's are lonely.

My only concern is what happens when RUG Twin goes up to Tier 1 and Grixis doesn't, or viceversa. I'm a long, long time Twin player (Tarmogoyf Twin being my favourite since around 3 years ago) and I'm pretty sure it will soon rise to the top again.
Grixis I don't see it that good; Tasigur is great but I dont feel it's gonna be Tier 1 anytime soon

That could definitely happen. But if it does, the overlap between a Grixis and RUG Twin discussion is going to be much more interesting and informative than the overlap between a UR All-In Twin discussion and a RUG Twin discussion. If it becomes a serious issue where one is a bigtime Tier 1 contender and the other is a tier 4 chump, we can revisit a different distinction. But the UR Twin/RUG Twin megathread worked well enough(ish) for months, and this new division is even tighter than that one.

Even over Terminate? I'm just not sold. If you're running anymore than a couple it loses value and doesn't have great synergy with Snappy. An opener with Cut alongside Tas but with no Bolts seems a bit sketchy.

Quote from MalkoMann »

Alright, Tempo thread it is! I wanted to post my current RUG list (similar to what got posted in the old thread), just to add to the discussion. I'm a big proponent of Huntmaster in RUG builds, it can really be a house in most of the fair matchups. Also, 2 life and 2 blockers against burn is often enough.

Sabertooth's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
CREATURES: 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Snapcaster Mage 3 Deceiver Exarch 3 Pestermite 2 Huntmaster of the Fells INSTANTS: 4 Lightning Bolt 2 Spell Snare 4 Remand 1 Electrolyze SORCERIES: 2 Gitaxian Probe 4 Serum Visions 1 Flame Slash	ENCHANTMENTS: 4 Splinter Twin LANDS: 4 Scalding Tarn 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Steam Vents 1 Stomping Ground 1 Breeding Pool 2 Sulfur Falls 2 Hinterland Harbor 2 Island 1 Mountain 1 Forest 1 Desolate Lighthouse 1 Tectonic Edge	SIDEBOARD: 2 Dispel 1 Grim Lavamancer 1 Nature's Claim 1 Negate 2 Ancient Grudge 1 Combust 2 Sower of Temptation 1 Anger of the Gods 1 Feed the Clan 1 Counterflux 1 Obstinate Baloth 1 Surrak Dragonclaw

I'm considering shaving a Probe or a Remand for Harvest Pyre to help against Abzan (does anyone know if Patrick is still advocating this?). Also considering a singleton Cryptic Command, although that would probably mean +1 Island, -1 Tectonic Edge, and the Edge can be very good.

i really like your list, but i really dont like the 4th splinter twin. i tried 4 a lot of time, but doesn't seems good in rug, or at least in my playstyle, im also playing 3 casters and 3 remands (thinking about adding the fourth remand though) and playing 2 commands 1 ooze and one clique

So I went to a local Modern Tournament with this list:



A few comments I would like to give before the report:

1. The manabase. As you can see, I'm missing some very important blue fetches. I will probably go with +3 Misty Rainforest, +1 Bloodstained Mire -4 Wooded Foothills and tweak the manabase accordingly, supporting more basics. For this tournament, I didn't have all fetches available for me.

2. I also did not have available the following cards: 1 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Cryptic Command, 1 Vendilion Clique. I don't like running the full set of Snapcasters. Not sure if I'm wrong here, could be as he is bonkers. (The 'bananas' adjective is reserved for another character).

So, to the report!

This was a 14 player tournament, with 4 rounds.




My friend playing UWR that tied with me? He went 3-0-1 and got second place. Happy for him! I loved playing the deck and definitely will play it again. I'm satisfied with its performance so far.

A few tweaks I want to make:

1. Thragtusk, Grim Lavamancer and Tasigur, the Golden Fang are COMPLETE HOUSES and add so much depth to the deck. So many different angles of attack possible now thanks to these additions. I'm certain I want +1 Lavamancer maindeck, +1 Thragtusk on the side, and he can even go to the maindeck depending on the Meta.
2. I really need that extra Cryptic Command and Spell Snare.
3. While Breaching Hippocamp was good enough against Abzan, he is sided out every time. I'd rather have him in the sideboard than in the maindeck. He also does not fly but somehow I thought he did. Almost lost him to a Rhino but my opponent thought he flew as well. We noticed that after the last game, lol.
4. I think I want 2 Vendilion Clique in the full 75, just not sure if one or two in the main. She is crazy good.
5. Flame Slash was meh. I don't care about opposing Spellskites that much. Upping the number of Lavamancers make Spellskite even less threatening, as I can just Bolt+activate to get rid of him.
6. Manabase was very painful but very consistent. It should get way better after I get my full share of blue fetchlands.

Thanks for reading this report!

What are some of rugs better options for sideboard cards against infect?


Is there anything better than spellskites?

Quote from PragmaTwice »

What are some of rugs better options for sideboard cards against infect?


Is there anything better than spellskites?

In terms of green mana? ummm not much I don't think unless of course you want to vines of vastwood their creature to keep it from getting a pump spell but then would you just want removal instead? Ancient grudge is so good against them though as I've killed their annoying inkmoths and spellskites. Other then that I like harvest pyre and dispel. Negates are decent too.

@necro why Flame slash? Would Dreadbore or Murderous Cut have been better? Or even Dismember?

@Complex Pants
I threw the list 30min before the event and I just mindlessly added the Flame Slash, haha. Could be a Dreadbore or Muderous Cut.

Actually, I was thinking last night: what is the greatest problem in the Abzan matchup?
It is the fact that we can't fight the long game versus them. We don't have more than net+1 cards. Our card advantage is close to none. They can just attrition us out of the game, so I was thinking about instant speed card draw for the deck, as an experience.

These were the cards that went through my head:

Think Twice - This is a Divination that you pay it twice. You also flip it to Thought Scour and get a card, so its nice.
Careful Consideration - While this doesn't net you any cards instant speed, only replaces itself, it digs DEEP, enough to find what you want. If you're not under a big threat, doing it mainphase might just give you the game.
Cerebral Vortex - Divination at instant speed by taking two damage? Can be pointed at the opponent for 3 extra damage? Maybe worth trying.
Compulsive Research - Sorcery speed makes me sad, but might be worth investigating.
Jace's Ingenuity - Heavy on the manacost, but nonetheless powerful.
Night's Whisper - Cheaper than Divination, but a dead draw against red decks. Should be sideboard material only. Maindeck only if you do not expect mono red.
Opportunity - Six is a lot more than five, and I don't think we can get too greedy just because this draws four. Jace's Ingenuity is better.
Pulse of the Grid - This sounds just right in an attrition based matchup. May be what I'm looking for.
Soul Ransom - I'm playing Sower of Temptation and this might just work as well as her.
Thirst for Knowledge - This would be perfect if we ran more artifacts.
Thoughtflare - Careful consideration costing one more. Might be worth investigating.

There's also two other very good cards that were not put into the list. Two cards that I hold dear in my heart:

Mystical Teachings and Gifts Ungiven. These are card-advantage and card quality like no other in Modern. Here's the list of things that Mystical Teachings does for you:

1. Card advantage with the Flashback. Sometimes you can just Mystical Teachings for Mystical Teachings and keep going.
2. It tutors every combo-creature in your deck plus Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage
3. It tutors every instant speed threat or answer we have.

Here's what Gifts Ungiven gives you:

1. Card advantage by going with a 2 for 1, straight out of the bat.
2. It fills your grave with relevant cards for Snapcaster Mage and Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3. You can tailor the deck such as you have always an effect you want in your hand when you Gifts
4. You don't have to search for four cards. Two of them will always go to the grave. This makes possible for adding Unburial Rites in the sideboard for another combo finish, with either Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn or your fattie of choice.
5. It is one of the most difficult cards to play against. Sometimes your opponent will just give you a win out of the bat after resolving this.

----------------

I might be TOO greedy by wanting to play these cards, but their upside is just too good to ignore. From my decklist, I'll be taking out one Pestermite and one Flame Slash and straight adding two Mystical Teachings. Then, I'm adjusting the manabase to fit a Hallowed Fountain. In my sideboard I'll take 2 Izzet Staticaster, 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Breaching Hippocamp to add +2 Gifts Ungiven, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria and +1Unburial Rites.

Happy to hear your thoughts and experiences as well. I have a Modern GP in October and I want to have the best Twin deck in the building.