MTG Salvation

Can I get a link to Farf's primer for r/U time warp please chalupa?

Quote from Borgorth »

The reason why I've never done bridge shuffling is that you really can't do it if you have even just a few foils, cos on the long run you're gonna ruin them badly

One of many reasons I don't play foils.

Quote from Borgorth »

In the end, like Chalupacabra said, Boomerang is just better. Yes it doesn't remove completely the problem, but it's far more versatile than targetting only a creature. This deck need tempo to build up, and by bouncing the creature you can easily counter it next turn.

I will admit that there are cards, like Snapcaster and Siege Rhino that you need to be careful about using Boomerang on, but it's pretty effective otherwise.

Quote from herkamurjones »

All of those spells are sorcery speed and if you were going to do the lab maniac win, don't you play it on your "last turn" so that you aren't exposed to some silly kill spell? I would be looking more at something like Abrupt Decay, Hero's Downfall or a Doom Blade type instant spell to watch out for. Either way, we need some meta shifts for this deck to become more competitive.

While we do benefit if certain meta shifts happen, what we need are philosophy shifts, not meta shifts. We have to accept that our opponents will not sit and wait for us to win. We need to take control of the game early so we can tie it up later.

Quote from jingleheimersmith »

Anywaus, WATCH YOUR HAND when Seige is out. It could turn into. A bad play.

Quote from Borgorth »

The only "bad" play it could turn, is having to discard the good card you've just draw or another good one you had, but that isn't really a bad play and can't be avoided unless you have a second draw engine in play + the siege

Snapcaster and Elixir help. I'd also rather fish through my deck faster and discard that premature Time Warp or Dig Through Time while hitting my land drops and discard those unneeded endgame counterspells than be without a way to fix my hand.

Quote from The Brewer »

Can I get a link to Farf's primer for r/U time warp please chalupa?

There isn't a primer. The list is in the splash section of this primer and there are videos of him playing it on YouTube.

Quote from Chalupacabra »

Quote from herkamurjones »

All of those spells are sorcery speed and if you were going to do the lab maniac win, don't you play it on your "last turn" so that you aren't exposed to some silly kill spell? I would be looking more at something like Abrupt Decay, Hero's Downfall or a Doom Blade type instant spell to watch out for. Either way, we need some meta shifts for this deck to become more competitive.

While we do benefit if certain meta shifts happen, what we need are philosophy shifts, not meta shifts. We have to accept that our opponents will not sit and wait for us to win. We need to take control of the game early so we can tie it up later.

What do you mean by philosophy shifts? If the format doesn't change (ie no bannings, and we really hope they ban/unban some things) there will still be aggro decks and we just can't be consistently competitive against the aggro match-ups. I might be completely wrong because I play the full control version of the deck with no snaps and not aware of how the other matchups are.

Maybe something like wall of frost has a place then. I love interactive magic, this deck does it a little less than I really like. But a couple walls are nice blockers/tappers.

The Time Attack list was built from the bottom up with resilience against Burn as its primary strength. Over development it was also tested against other decks, of course, but the idea from Day 1 was that it had to be able to keep pace with the fastest possible decks. This was before Treasure Cruise, but we knew even then that inexpensive, efficient decks would be widely played and we had to be able to outrun those decks. Modern is a format of creature-driven decks, so beating aggro needs to be a priority of any deck that hopes to be successful.

UR Delver has always been a problem for this deck and Treasure Cruise has made it even more difficult. The meta has shifted radically in the wake of this deck's newfound fortitude and resulting prominence.

How have we changed to adapt for any of this? We've added Dig Through Time because it's powerful, but fundamentally we're throwing the same things out there and complaining when we're taking losses to the same decks (primarily Faeries and Delver) that were already defeating us. If we don't adjust for these decks, how can we expect to defeat them?

It just strikes me as lazy to say over and over that the deck can't be competitive when many of the people making that statement are not even implementing the already demonstrated cards and strategies that improve the matchup. It does nothing to advance the evolution of the deck to say, "We can't beat this." Our time is better served asking, "How can we improve our chances of beating this?"

Tempo and Aggro-Control decks are always going to be a problem for a deck that starts winning on turn four/five. The fact that they're stronger right now is bad for us, but the decks that prey on them are decks we prey on. In the meantime, we can improve our matchup in a number of ways:

1. We need to increase the frequency and precision of our interaction with our opponent.
The more we are able to prevent our opponent from achieving their goals, the more likely we are to achieve ours. Even if we're already tuned that way, we may not be making the best card choices for the current meta. Should we be using Threads of Disloyalty instead of Vedalken Shackles now? Echoing Truth instead of Boomerang? If we can't slow or stop our opponent, how can we hope to win? This is why Monastery Siege is so good for us. Putting it down for the Dragons effect actually makes us more likely to combo off against decks like Burn, 8Rack, and Junk than the card draw option does.


2. We need to stop or at least severely limit the number of cards we hand to our opponent.
Decks like Burn, Delver, and Storm can make more effective use of extra cards every turn than we can in the early game. We need to play cards like Dictate and Jace so they advance our game plan, not our opponent's. This is why I'm critical of lists that are heavily dependent on Mine effects. These hurt you against fast aggro decks...you're handing your opponent the game when you play these cards before you can win with them. Here's something that Thenarus figured out a while back that may shock some of you. Against Burn, the best move is to side the combo package out of the deck. By bringing in a pile of control and beating them to death while locking them out of the game and sending their damage spells back at them or absorbing them with Skites, you can handily win game two/three. More important than any of that, however, is the fact that siding out the Mines cuts back their ability to hurt you.


3. We need to make sure we understand how our deck and the cards we play in it work.
Knowing things like the advantages and disadvantages of playing Dictate on your turn or your opponent's turn are important. Knowing that you should (almost) never play Dig during your own turn, or the powerful synergy of Monastery Siege and Remand can win or lose games. Knowing you can return Batterskull to your hand on your opponent's end step can be key to surviving an onslaught. If you're not 100% on how something works, or if you can use a card a certain way or not, ask! Thenarus and I are both former Judges, and there's a wealth of player knowledge possessed by the players on this thread. Help us help you! If in doubt at an event, remember the magic word: Judge!


4. Before playing competitively, decide on your strategy and sideboard plan for matches against other decks.
This is just good practice no matter what deck you play. The less you have to think about sideboard choices or how you're going to win against different decks, the more you can concentrate on what's happening at that moment and be less likely to make play mistakes. Be prepared ahead of time and you have a better chance of being successful.


5. Don't netdeck your sideboard.
Make sure that you have the optimal sideboard for countering the decks and opponents you expect to face. That section is massive for a reason. You need to make choices for the opponents you expect to face, not what a pro or another player may have put together for the field they were expecting to play against two months ago at an event somewhere else in the world.


6. This is a highly customizable deck; tailor it to your playstyle!
I'm all about Monoblue control, but that might not be your thing. If so, my list isn't good for you. Make sure you're playing something that plays to your strengths, not someone else's, even if that's not this deck.

So, something to mull over...Tamiyo. Yes yes, she isn't fast, but she does some awesome things. She taps down dudes, she can draw cards, but her ultimate is the show stopper. If you can get there it's unlimited turns right now. You could do something like cut back on time warps, add in more control elements, maybe Jace Architect to pad down attackers, aforementioned walls to stop the aggro, then work toward the tamiyo win. Heck, you could conceivably cut down to just a couple time warps. Add in counter and stall, maybe some light ramp via overgrown battlement. Yeah, that's the simic build no one likes, but just spitballing here.

Tamiyo was one of the first cards I tried in the deck. I've never wanted it over a Time Warp, but I always want Time Warp instead of it. My experience with the deck has been that anything that costs five mana or more, and isn't a varation of Time Warp, needs to be absolutely game changing, like Teferi, Dig and Batterskull. As a general rule, for competitive play in Modern, I'm highly skeptical of anything with a mana cost over 3.

That said; build it, try it, record your results, and report back. We'd all love to hear your experience with it.

I just have one Tamiyo, I'll see what I can do.

talking about burn matchups, what do u think about this little guy?
http://magiccards.info/m13/en/58.html

it's solid, can't die to bolts and keeps blocking, in the worst case scenario it's a 1 mana gain 4 life
also it plays well with sun droplet and the new 3 mana enchant who can be used against burn

t1 crab
t2 sun
t3 new enchant
t4 exhaustion

burn can't do much with their creatures being blocked and spells becoming too expensive

A friend of mine played a Talrand deck that lead off with kraken hatchling and it was a huge pain. I could see that working, it's faster than either defender I mentioned earlier.

The earlier example of why sun droplet doesn't work against burn...that series of burn turns is tough to beat for any deck. If that's how the game is going you probably aren't winning anyway. A card like redirect would be effective in that series though. I've used it to turn a bolt onto their goblin guide or back at their face. But yeah, burn drops a mountain each turn and started with a hand full of gas, it's why burn is so consistent and resilient.

If we are looking for something to stall, semi-early in the game, what about Plumeveil? It has 4 toughness so doesn't die to bolt and flying so it can block delver for days. Flash is how we want to be playing anyway and usually a turn 3 dictate is going to help them in the coming 2-3 turns more than it will help us..

Think it over, team!

Quote from Borgorth »

Quote from herkamurjones »

If we are looking for something to stall, semi-early in the game, what about Plumeveil? It has 4 toughness so doesn't die to bolt and flying so it can block delver for days. Flash is how we want to be playing anyway and usually a turn 3 dictate is going to help them in the coming 2-3 turns more than it will help us..

Think it over, team!

I have thought about this creature weeks ago, but we need to wait until the bannlist to see which aggro decks will be in the meta.
If UR delver stays, this creature is usefull only vs delver and not vs monastery since it'll be pumped.

next ban may be a unban for http://magiccards.info/query?q=ancestral vision&v=card&s=cname

i suggest that u all look for ur copies, because if that ***** comes back, it will be a staple on our deck, so it's better buying when it's 5 dollars rather than pay $100

what do u think? it's a fine card, few decks would use it, totally fair one that couldn't see any modern play because modern began with it banned

Thenarus scooped those up Pre-Khans. In a world before Dig and Cruise, I agree, powerful addition to the deck. If I have access to Dig, however, I'm not sure I need it.

I feel like visions would be a 4 of pretty easily in the decks running boomerang over snare (and replacing any of the sorcery speed mine effects besides maybe jace as a win con), I can't really think of many turn one plays we have especially pre-sideboard.

I'd run visions in place of DTT.

hi there, i would like to lead off saying that i really liked this primer. i haven't seen anything like this before, save for the relatively rare archeomancer infinite combo decks, but moving on to the reason i commented, i was looking through the new spoilers for FR and i saw a card you may like. for 8 colorless and triple blue, you get delve and an extra turn. whats your opinion on this card? its name is temporal trespass.

This primer is absolutely outstanding. Really top-notch work.

I'm thrilled to see my favourite pet deck is still doing ok and, now that I've finished my uwr midrange deck up, this one is back on the chopping block.

I am going to be testing a variant of the time attack version that uses inkmoth nexus as the means of killing the opponent. Some easy pros and cons are that infinite lifegain combos are no longer an issue and that it is extremely easy to find an extra (1) mana lying around while controlling and time warping to keep adding to that total. Downside is that I dilute my much-loved shackles and very slightly increase my chances of bricking when trying to cast cryptic or double boomerang or something. It also makes my other regular damage sources much worse (although batterskull stays as the lifegain is too good to pass up with all the aggro).

The ideas I've been really toying with would be running either ghostfire blade or runechanter's pike to really accelerate that clock. I will have to cut down on snapcasters and not run dig if I want to go with runechanter's, which is distasteful, but it may make other cards that dig super deep much more viable (things like Ideas Unbound or Thirst for Knowledge). Turning an inkmoth into a 1 or 2 turn clock is extremely appealing. Ghostfire blade is likely going to be more reasonable but runechanter's has potential to be absolutely crazy as you just sneak it down at some point and play hard control until you have 9 spells in the yard and then 3 colourless mana gets you an instant kill.

Anyways, it may turn out to be suboptimal but I'm gonna give it a try. Comments/feedback and other people testing this idea would be awesome too. Keep up the great work, people!

Fate Reforged is fully spoiled so it looks like we got Monastery Siege and...nope, just Monastery Siege. So anything else is going to be a matter of watching bans/unbans and fine-tuning.

Quote from Dunhilina »

I feel like visions would be a 4 of pretty easily in the decks running boomerang over snare (and replacing any of the sorcery speed mine effects besides maybe jace as a win con), I can't really think of many turn one plays we have especially pre-sideboard.

Faerie Conclave effectively is a first turn play. Vapor Snag, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce are also solid first turn plays. Serum Visions is top deck manipulation disguised as card draw. It's not really something we need. Gitaxian Probe and Judge's Familiar are both stronger opening moves if you're looking for early game plays that are viable later. I'd even take Piracy Charm over Serum Visions.

Quote from Sled_Dog »

I'd run visions in place of DTT.

They're not even comparable. Visions replaces itself, then allows you to filter your next two draws. In the combo version it makes a little sense, but it reduces your interaction with your opponent, which is going to hurt your ability to defeat fast decks. Dig, on the other hand, goes eight deep and grabs two of those cards, helping you find the solution to a given problem. Very different strategy-wise. Dig is also a one or two-of, where Visions tends to be a four-of. The card we really want in this slot is Ancestral Vision which, as Amstad pointed out, seems a likely candidate to come off the banned list.

Quote from kirakenso »

hi there, i would like to lead off saying that i really liked this primer. i haven't seen anything like this before, save for the relatively rare archeomancer infinite combo decks, but moving on to the reason i commented, i was looking through the new spoilers for FR and i saw a card you may like. for 8 colorless and triple blue, you get delve and an extra turn. whats your opinion on this card? its name is temporal trespass.

Thank you for your kind words about the primer! As Borgoth pointed out, Temporal Trespass has been pretty thoroughly discussed. General consensus is that it is a bit of a trap as it looks like it would work here, but the cost makes it unplayable. Some are interested in it as a one-of, others have no interest in it. I think it may be a possible substitute for Dig should it get banned.

Edit: Clarified, fixed typos.

I meant Ancestral Vision, not serum visions. Someone mentioned running AV instead of spell snare.

Ancestral Vision has two potential problems:

1. Early game it's fantastic, but if you draw into it mid or late game, it's pointless.
2. It has the same problem all draw and filter effects do: they aren't solutions. They help you get to solutions, yes, but ultimately they do nothing to rectify problems on their own. Often playing more tempo/control cards is more effective than playing more ways of drawing them. Unlike Burn, our other cards aren't effectively interchangeable, so just reloading our hand won't necessarily lead us to victory.

For the combo players you ultimately need to decide if you're focused on chasing your combo or interacting with your opponent, but take into consideration the fact that you cannot find and execute your combo faster than Burn and Delver can count to twenty. You need to find some way to lock them out for four to five turns or interact with them.