I had an idea about microsplashs earlier because I knew in the past a G microsplash was popular, but now, it seems that the U microsplash is favored. I thought I'd try to build a deck with both. It seems to have gone a bit heavier in the G direction than intended, but I think the deck can manage both colors while potentially still getting the best reasons to splash. I haven't really tried my hand at tri color D&T before. I'm aware this is the W(x) forum, but I still would like to get some opinions, if y'all don't mind. I know Charons in particular has done a bant version of the deck, but I can't recall seeing it.
This is the list:
I'm not sure if this actually can achieve the power of either splash, or if it just will spread itself too thin. It's weird how the exalted+ giest makes it feel like I'm just playing bant tempo which I guess I kind of am? I like the ability of coco and Ephara to bring me back into the game. Both interact well with geist. The SB also gets some cool options, but I can include those later, once I have a more solid MD list.
This is definitely micro-Bant.
On the creature side, I think you can be a little more aggressive with some of your choices. All of the things in your list are well-known D&T staples, but I think you're a little light on attacking power. GoST is obviously powerful (and it gets much better with Exalted triggers), but it's difficult to keep GoST alive. When I tested with Geist, I found it trading unfavorably with cheaper creatures (like Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf), and that it was too slow against Affinity.
On the land side, I think this manabase will work, although I built mine differently. In Bant, I really like the fetch+shock plan, because that allows you to find the land that best suits your hand. Most hands that had a Plains and a Windswept Heath meant that I was off to the races, because I would just tutor up a Breeding Pool, so now I had access to WG and WU. In your case, you've really tried to minimize the self-inflicted damage, which is a very good idea. Given how small your splash is, I think that you may get away with it, but just be aware that if you have issues curving out, switching to fetch+shocks will really help.
My other thought about your deck is that you're really light on the noncreature tax. I'm sure you're doing that intentionally, to make CoCo more attractive, but I think you should really be swinging the other way on this one. You'll win more games by loading up on the noncreature taxes than you will win by playing CoCo (especially given that there are only 2 copies in your deck). After all, we're still D&T, and Thalia/Wingmare are some of the best taxes we've got.
You mentioned that you didn't remember seeing my list. It's possible that I didn't post it, because I try to not derail the conversation from the W(x) builds. I'm not going to bother wasting your time with all of the things that I wouldn't run again, but I'll leave you with a few lessons learned and a better Bant list that I would still play today.
Lessons Learned:
1) Fetchlands + Shocklands essentially mean you start at 15 life. Especially if you're running Horizon Canopy. Expect to take a lot of self-inflicted damage. That said, you will curve out smoothly. It was rare that I couldn't hit my spells on the curve, and quite frankly, the only point of damage that matters is the last one.
2) Running maindeck Kitchen Finks will really help mitigate the self-inflicted damage. This card is good to begin with, but it's particularly good in Bant.
3) Don't go too deep into all three colors. My build was not a microsplash. I ran Flickerwisp, Vendilion Clique, and Scavenging Ooze in the same deck. Don't do this. Drawing a Vendilion Clique feels great. Being unable to cast a Vendilion Clique feels terrible.
4) Knight of the Reliquary is a house. This guy. Wow. In a build with fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, and Horizon Canopy, this guy is aggressive. You always want to have one, and they get better in multiples. Your opponents hate to see it, and it only takes two lands to pull this out of Bolt range. This quickly becomes the most aggressive card in the deck. You might think this would be a problem with the search taxes, but it's much more common to be swinging with this guy than searching, especially with all of the Exalted triggers.
If I were to rebuild the deck today, it would be predominantly WG, with a microsplash for U:
Even just glancing at that list, I can tell that it still needs some work. But the manabase should be fine, and the list is reasonably aggressive.
Maybe we should take the Bant discussion to a PM?
Is that to say I should not be running geist? While you're correct in that Geist can have creature trouble, my hopes were that I could get their dudes out of the way enough with flickers, surprise giest via vial or coco or go through with Eiganjo or exalted. I think you're right that I could go with some more noncreature taxers, but I find that all the MUs that geist is really good in are the same as the ones where vryn really shines which makes me wonder if it's overkill to have both. Perhaps I could change the cocos to something to help my damage get through like vapor snag or even hero's blade. Maybe even back to the swords? Actually thinking about it, I think the swords could be really sweet in a list like this. G accel with light taxing and skite to protect them with Gost to be equipped... Or maybe just resto?
On the mana base and your take: thanks! I was really trying to find a way to not punish myself too much with it, but still take advantage of the 3 colors. I agree about finks and I'd put more if I could find the room. It's really interesting to see your take on it. It's approaching the same idea very differently. I can see how Kotr could be a house, but I feel like the best use of it would be too get gq which is great with arbiter, but then you have to pay the tax to do it. I know there is a certain amount of sequencing to be done there, but maybe I'd be more into Kotr in a straight GW build where I could fit cards like crucible of worlds and or eternal witness so that you can get max land utility while also being agro with the knight. I think for now, at least with my microsplash, I'll stay away from him, but it's something to keep in mind for sure.
You're right. It does need work still. I came to you all because I was unsure which direction to take it. I think I know what I'll try next (swords). It's really helpful to see your more full splash as well. It helps to frame it and see how it should be curving out.
@2imu I know you were replying to Elliot and that you already said it before, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you about CoCo. Resto is more consistent, but less powerful. Resto can not bring you back into the game or just end it the way coco can. I'm aware that you can just hit nothing with Coco, or hit a legend that you already have in play, or even just hierarch, but you can use it in so many situations. It gives the deck a lot more of an ability to do surprise attacks and interact with people at flash speed. You can do it during combat to annihilate their forces, at EOT to take away stuff with wisp, in response to searches, in response to kill spells, or at the end of their turn for surprise attackers. It's versatility is unrivaled. It can be a loose cannon, but when I have to make a decision as to play it or something else, I always find myself doing math and seeing what I've already seen so that I can have the best guess as to what I can hit. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying resto is bad. Not at all. My GW list runs a 2/2 split of resto Coco, but CoCo is a very powerful card and I don't think you can arbitrarily say that Resto is better. It's a card that shapes your list. If my GW list ran Wingmare and thalia, I would not touch Coco, but you have to make that decision as to what direction you want your deck to go in.
Personally, I think Coco is the superior choice right now because of the sheer amount of terminates I've been seeing. At least with online play, I'd rather have several somethings to be killed against that kind of deck and against a creature deck, it can stop them from going wide.
I can respect your wanting to go with just resto, but I have to put my opinion out there so that we don't all accept that resto is always better than Coco.
Is that to say I should not be running geist? While you're correct in that Geist can have creature trouble, my hopes were that I could get their dudes out of the way enough with flickers, surprise giest via vial or coco or go through with Eiganjo or exalted. I think you're right that I could go with some more noncreature taxers, but I find that all the MUs that geist is really good in are the same as the ones where vryn really shines which makes me wonder if it's overkill to have both. Perhaps I could change the cocos to something to help my damage get through like vapor snag or even hero's blade. Maybe even back to the swords? Actually thinking about it, I think the swords could be really sweet in a list like this. G accel with light taxing and skite to protect them with Gost to be equipped... Or maybe just resto?
I really like GoST in WU Tempo & Taxes (especially when it's run with Vendilion Clique and Hero's Blade), but I think GoST is less good in Bant. Generally speaking, Bant combines the taxing of white, the power of green, and the card advantage of blue. GoST is a really aggressive card, but it needs a lot more support than the basic D&T shell can give (Path and Flickerwisp are the only "core" cards that ensure GoST connects).
If you want to go the Vapor Snag route, I'd take that as far as it can go. Something like:
On the mana base and your take: thanks! I was really trying to find a way to not punish myself too much with it, but still take advantage of the 3 colors.
I think you did a good job with the manabase. If it works consistently, your manabase will end up much better than mine. From a deckbuilding perspective, most of the time that a player runs lands that cause self-inflicted damage, that player is trading life for tempo. With this deck, I'll make that exchange any day of the week. The question isn't "should we trade life for tempo?" but rather "what is the minimum amount of life that we can trade without affecting our tempo?" It's possible (and likely) that I'm slightly overextended on fixing elements.
I agree about finks and I'd put more if I could find the room. It's really interesting to see your take on it. It's approaching the same idea very differently. I can see how Kotr could be a house, but I feel like the best use of it would be too get gq which is great with arbiter, but then you have to pay the tax to do it. I know there is a certain amount of sequencing to be done there, but maybe I'd be more into Kotr in a straight GW build where I could fit cards like crucible of worlds and or eternal witness so that you can get max land utility while also being agro with the knight. I think for now, at least with my microsplash, I'll stay away from him, but it's something to keep in mind for sure.
If you get the chance, give KotR a try. You're right, tutoring up a Ghost Quarter can be a very powerful play, especially because your KotR gets a permanent +2/+2 (first for the land that you sacrifice, and second for the cracked Ghost Quarter). By the time you have access to that line of play, you seldom worry about paying 2 for Arbiter, because it's just worth it. But in my experience, KotR instantly draws out removal. I've run 3 before, but if I could find the room, I'd like to add the 4th.
You're right. It does need work still. I came to you all because I was unsure which direction to take it. I think I know what I'll try next (swords). It's really helpful to see your more full splash as well. It helps to frame it and see how it should be curving out.
Sorry, I meant my list needs work, not yours.
Let me know if you want to bounce ideas around. Feel free to PM me. I just try to leave the atypical builds out of the competitive thread.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Is that to say I should not be running geist? While you're correct in that Geist can have creature trouble, my hopes were that I could get their dudes out of the way enough with flickers, surprise giest via vial or coco or go through with Eiganjo or exalted. I think you're right that I could go with some more noncreature taxers, but I find that all the MUs that geist is really good in are the same as the ones where vryn really shines which makes me wonder if it's overkill to have both. Perhaps I could change the cocos to something to help my damage get through like vapor snag or even hero's blade. Maybe even back to the swords? Actually thinking about it, I think the swords could be really sweet in a list like this. G accel with light taxing and skite to protect them with Gost to be equipped... Or maybe just resto?
I really like GoST in WU Tempo & Taxes (especially when it's run with Vendilion Clique and Hero's Blade), but I think GoST is less good in Bant. Generally speaking, Bant combines the taxing of white, the power of green, and the card advantage of blue. GoST is a really aggressive card, but it needs a lot more support than the basic D&T shell can give (Path and Flickerwisp are the only "core" cards that ensure GoST connects).
If you want to go the Vapor Snag route, I'd take that as far as it can go. Something like:
On the mana base and your take: thanks! I was really trying to find a way to not punish myself too much with it, but still take advantage of the 3 colors.
I think you did a good job with the manabase. If it works consistently, your manabase will end up much better than mine. From a deckbuilding perspective, most of the time that a player runs lands that cause self-inflicted damage, that player is trading life for tempo. With this deck, I'll make that exchange any day of the week. The question isn't "should we trade life for tempo?" but rather "what is the minimum amount of life that we can trade without affecting our tempo?" It's possible (and likely) that I'm slightly overextended on fixing elements.
I agree about finks and I'd put more if I could find the room. It's really interesting to see your take on it. It's approaching the same idea very differently. I can see how Kotr could be a house, but I feel like the best use of it would be too get gq which is great with arbiter, but then you have to pay the tax to do it. I know there is a certain amount of sequencing to be done there, but maybe I'd be more into Kotr in a straight GW build where I could fit cards like crucible of worlds and or eternal witness so that you can get max land utility while also being agro with the knight. I think for now, at least with my microsplash, I'll stay away from him, but it's something to keep in mind for sure.
If you get the chance, give KotR a try. You're right, tutoring up a Ghost Quarter can be a very powerful play, especially because your KotR gets a permanent +2/+2 (first for the land that you sacrifice, and second for the cracked Ghost Quarter). By the time you have access to that line of play, you seldom worry about paying 2 for Arbiter, because it's just worth it. But in my experience, KotR instantly draws out removal. I've run 3 before, but if I could find the room, I'd like to add the 4th.
You're right. It does need work still. I came to you all because I was unsure which direction to take it. I think I know what I'll try next (swords). It's really helpful to see your more full splash as well. It helps to frame it and see how it should be curving out.
Sorry, I meant my list needs work, not yours.
Let me know if you want to bounce ideas around. Feel free to PM me. I just try to leave the atypical builds out of the competitive thread.
You're probably right about the snag route. It's a card to commit to commit to. I need to try a super Death and Tempo list like that at some point. It seems fun. Every time I go to build one I just find myself fighting myself over which direction the deck watns to go with thalia vs cards like snag or remand.
I feel similarly about Kotr, but yeah, I'll give him a shot at some point here.
Haha, I see. my list needs work too though. Roger that though. I'll try to put out some results with this bad boy before bringing it up again xP.
The reason I want to splash G and U is for the explosive speed of G with the tempo of U. Exalted on a turn 2 GoST feels great.
@mightbenno I've never seen meddling mage as a reason to splash U. You really need to know their hand to make it at all worth while. If I ran 3 vendillion as well, maybe I'd consider it, but I really don't think of it as a reason to run U. In my opinion the reasons to splash U are moorland haunt, SB options, Vendillion, GoST, Ephara, and maybe phantasmal image. Geist gets around cards like path, terminate, and bolt, abrupt decay, murderous cut, etc where the others don't. Lili is really the main threat to him, but I can usually guarantee other creatures are in play at the same time. burn sweepers are gonna hurt regardless, but Eiganjo actually does a lot of work with geist.
This is my deck, it is far heavier on the Taxes side of Death and Taxes but it kills fine via evasion. I feel it does better against most of the meta as Grixis and Combo are pretty common.
There are a few extra tricks to consider in this deck. One is that Glen Elendra can be bounced to reset persist. Another is that Spellstutter Sprites can be bounced as additional counterspells or Clique as additional hand disruption. The deck still runs four Flickerwisps as they are honestly the best thing about it. Instant speed Flickerwisp via vial or bouncing a Flickerwisp via Angel is brutal for disrupting their landbase. Cavern helps vs. the likes of Spellsnare targeting Thalia. I like Oboro vs. Liliana's +1 and opposing Tectonic Edges. I don't use Mutavault because I don't want more colourless land and Faerie Conclave while more expensive has evasion. It does come in tapped though so really it's up for debate but personally I want the extra coloured land.
Good match ups is any kind of control like Jeskai or Grixis, it does really well against Tron and any kind of combo like Twin, Bloom and Scapeshift, the added element of the counterspells shuts down spell heavy decks. Bad match ups are creature heavy aggro with smooth mana like Merfolk, Affinity and Elves. Jund is VERY swingy, three colour landbases are vulnerable to hate and Jund runs a lot of spells which are vulnerable to this decks hate. It can also be bled out. On the flipside Goyf can be a problem as can a weak opening hand vs. disruption + removal.
This is from building and playing the deck in competition. Geist is a trap stay away from him we are not aggro, using a flickerwisp to keep him alives is losing value. V.clique as a one off is ok but is too heavy on the mana.
Like I said 2 days ago, I wasn't fond of Leyline anymore, So I will try something like sin collector and O-ring for now. If you have playtested with these, tell me how it went. I really like this mana base knowing that the splash we need for black only include pontiff and lingering. I was using canopy while having less plain, but I do love smoothing up the base with 7 plain to provide the turn two or three chapel. I fell more confident with that. The upside of utility like eiganjo and shizo does not worth the risk. Maybe i Will cut a plain for Shizo or shambling vent, but im not quite sure.
This version is surprisingly strong and fast, thank to kytheon, lingering, serra and crusader. You still keep the tax part, but you are able to push damage airborne while protecting your ass and tax at the same time. Next time I will give another try to the GW version since I played it the most. I do want to play 2 Gaddock teeg main!
If you have any hint or ideas let me know, and like I said in my other post, IF your did not give a try to kytheon in monowhite or BW, *JUST DO IT*. I will never turn back. The number of kytheon is the only issue. Maybe I will cut down to two, but I am not quite sure. Kytheon Protect other threat only by being a nuisance as a 1 drop. and he is the guy you want to have as a bodyguard on the ground, and you don't need him flipped to do so. He block tasigur and gurmag for days. So why would you care wounding your topdeck mode with dryad anymore! Dryad or owl slow them. Kytheon block them! Anyway that's all for now. Have a great day guys!
I think I know everyone's stance on this but..is there a way to make a death and taxes list without vial? I just made living end and
I am working on an aristocrats deck so I just don't have the money for them right now, but I love the death and taxes strategy..
So I guess my question is this, can I make a death and taxes list somehow..or do I have to go over to the hatebears thread instead?
I have played hatebears quite a few times, but I always found myself leaning more towards the areas that I know DnT tends to specialize in.
Also, I am very interested in that bant "microsplash" list. Thanks for any and all help
Edit: also I love how active this thread is
I moved the Mirran Crusader to MD from the board and dropped 1 Blade Splicer from the list to make game 1 vs. elves/jund/grixis a little better (I think?).
My tentative boarding plans for my two trouble matches from last tourney would be:
Grixis Twin
In Leylines, Sunlance, 1BFT, Purge, RIPs, Stonecloaker, Worship
Out 2 Blade splicer, 3 Serra avenger, 1 Aether vial, 1 Archangel of Tithes, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Thalia, SoLaS
I'm not sure if bringing in Leylines is right in this MU, though I did get IOK'd turn 3 of game 1 (Crusader) and turn 1 of game 2 (worship) last time. If not, I'd leave in Thalia, Wingmare and a Blade splicer I think.
I decided to try out a WG variation (which is really is nothing new) and I was wondering if somebody could help me build the manabase I need since I couldn't figure out how to apply Frank Karsten's manabase article to Death & Taxes since it doesn't consider how Æther Vial effects the mana.
I know the WG build can sometimes push to 22 lands but I'm not sure what to put in yet. So far I've estimated that I need 14 green sources to get a turn 1 Noble Hierarch and since the list has no cards requiring GG that should be enough. A turn three Flickerwisp/Mirran Crusader would require 19 white sources which the hierarchs bring down to 17. And here is where I get stuck since I can't figure out how much the vial effects the needed amounts. I've seen successful WG lists that run only 8 dual sources (shocks, fetches, razers), 5 other colored sources and the rest being utility lands. So if somebody could help me out or send me PM it would be highly appreciated.
Going off of Karsten's article, here are the most restrictive mana costs that you have:
G: 14 G sources WG: 20 W OR G sources, with at least 13 W sources AND 13 G sources WW: 20 W sources 1WW: 19 W sources
Then, he recommends counting the Hierarchs as 0.5 sources each:
A good rule of thumb is to count fragile mana producers (e.g., Birds of Paradise or Deathrite Shaman) as half a colored mana source, to count any cheap cantrip (e.g., Remand or Peek) as 0.25 colored sources, and to count any cheap scry card (e.g., Temples) as 0.2 colored sources.
But of course, all of that, as you mention, is before Æther Vial.
First, the bad news:
Without running Karsten's simulation myself, I can't give you an exact answer, because he has mulligan rules in place. If I used statistics to calculate probabilities, many "failures" would be hands that you would mulligan anyway. For example, Karsten suggests having 14 G sources in order to be able to cast Hierarch on T1 with a 90% probability. However, in order to have a 90% chance of drawing a G source in the first 7 cards of your deck, you need to be running 16 sources. (In practice, the odds are actually worse, because you have to find the G source in 6 cards, not 7, because that last one must be the Hierarch.)
But of course, Æther Vial messes with that number. For a Noble Hierarch, this is actually pretty simple, because you're probably interested in the odds that you draw either a G source OR an Æther Vial. In that case, for the purpose of casting a Noble Hierarch, you can just consider Æther Vial as another G source. Given you're running 4 Vials, you only need 12 G sources, before mulligan rules. (If you're considering the 6-card case, you would need the same 14 G sources that Karsten predicts, still before mulligan rules.)
Next, the worse news:
The math you're looking for is difficult. Consequently, I'm not going to do it. (Sorry.) Honestly, it's easier to simulate using Monte Carlo, which is why Karsten did that.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I decided to try out a WG variation (which is really is nothing new) and I was wondering if somebody could help me build the manabase I need since I couldn't figure out how to apply Frank Karsten's manabase article to Death & Taxes since it doesn't consider how Æther Vial effects the mana. Here is the list:
I know the WG build can sometimes push to 22 lands but I'm not sure what to put in yet. So far I've estimated that I need 14 green sources to get a turn 1 Noble Hierarch and since the list has no cards requiring GG that should be enough. A turn three Flickerwisp/Mirran Crusader would require 19 white sources which the hierarchs bring down to 17. And here is where I get stuck since I can't figure out how much the vial effects the needed amounts. I've seen successful WG lists that run only 8 dual sources (shocks, fetches, razers), 5 other colored sources and the rest being utility lands. So if somebody could help me out or send me PM it would be highly appreciated.
Hey! I'm more than willing to give you some advice... Briarhorn is not that good. If you want to keep it, it costs 6. I know you can get in +3/+3, but the best creature you could put it on in your deck can't be targeted by it because it has pro green... I don't know how you feel about aven mindcensor, but I'd go with at least 2, if not 3 because of it's T2 playability with hierarch. It really adds a lot to be able to flash it in like that.
As for your lands, I would not go below 23. I know GW CAN go to 22, but I really would not recommend it. 23 is really consistent. First off, a major reason to splash for GW is gavony township so I'd go for 1 or 2 of those. Pretty much any GW list you run across should be running those, 4 razorverge thicket, 4 temple garden, 2 horizon canopy, 4 ghost quarter, and then some combination of mutas, tecs, others(like Eiganjo), basics, and if you want to run fetches to make it even more consistent, you can, but I don't think it needs them. Your list isn't too heavy on G, so you can probably get away with maybe 1 forest, depending on how greedy you want to be.
You are really low on flicker targets - saving a creature from removal is fine, but having ficker targets allows you to go aggresive. Also 3x Qasali is overkill (depending on meta). Add a Finks or a Gaddock instead - both are pretty good, though not game-breaking. There is no reason (outside of budget concerns) not to play the third Horizon Canopy.
Wow! Thanks a lot for the breakdown. Really appreciate it. It seems some are running more shocks instead of fetches to combat the potential nonbo with arbiter/mindcensor but as it has been written before, it's about sequencing.
Actually, in the case of the manabase I built you, it's not just sequencing.
I knew that I wanted 6 fetch+shocks, so I could either go 4/2, 3/3, or 2/4. I was originally going to go with 4/2 (fetch/shock), because your list probably never needs double green. This gives you a virtual 6 copies of Temple Garden, but any redundant fetches would grab Plains instead. However, I thought it was likely that the first fetch would always go for a Temple Garden, so I opted to split the difference to save you from an extra point of damage.
It comes down to how often you want to be fetching for Temple Garden relative to other things. If you always want to find a Temple Garden, run that instead of the fetchlands. If you normally want to find Temple Garden, but also think it's likely you'll use a fetchland to get out from under a Blood Moon, split the difference. If you only need to find one Temple Garden, run more fetchlands but use the redundant fetchlands to grab basics.
There is no reason (outside of budget concerns) not to play the third Horizon Canopy.
If he isn't running maindeck Kitchen Finks, then double Canopy hands will destroy him, especially if he also runs fetches and shocks. Canopy is great, but I wouldn't run the third without having 2-3 maindeck Finks.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
So I had posted asking about a version that doesn't run aether vial..and f3n1x directed me to deadguy ale(i'm not sure why, but thank you as it gave me
an idea) so I went to my lgs shop and proxied out a DnT type deck that I tested a bit-and it seemed pretty good. Here is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-wb-death-and-taxes/
So yeah, I tried out pack rat-has anyone done this before? Thanks for any and all help
Hey guys First time poster fairly recent lurker (though I have pent the past few days reading maybe 100 pages of this thread). This deck really grabs me.
Anyways I have a question I hope you kind folks would be willing to help me out with. I was browsing recent SCG events and I came across this deck.
I know the primer recommends NO swords but this list seemed to do well (I believe second at a premier IQ) running the 2 swords. I guess I was wondering if people could explain the pro's and con's of running 1 of each of those swords. (I Know this is probably a frequent question and I apologize but I'm really just trying to get a better understanding while working to build my list (Which I can post in another post if people would be willing to help me out))
So I am planning on playing this list today. I tried out 4 Mangaras before and it was fantastic, I then added 2 restos and they worked amazingly and now I am going for maximum greed and just playing the playset.
Yeah, no problem! I thought as much about crusader. It would be nice, but this is a rare case where pro green actually isn't a good thing for us. Forget the 6 cost thing. I was dumb and forgot what evoke meant.
Let us know how it goes!
I look forward to hearing what kind of results you can put up.
So I had posted asking about a version that doesn't run aether vial..and f3n1x directed me to deadguy ale(i'm not sure why, but thank you as it gave me
an idea) so I went to my lgs shop and proxied out a DnT type deck that I tested a bit-and it seemed pretty good. Here is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-wb-death-and-taxes/
So yeah, I tried out pack rat-has anyone done this before? Thanks for any and all help
Hey,
So I'm sorry to tell you it, but you really NEED vial. You went heavily into black without vial. Even if I ran your list with vial, I'd have to add fetches.
4 wingmare and 3 thalia is really going to hurt your hand disruption and lingering souls. Take a look at Death & Catmix's lingering taxes list. I think you probably don't want wingmare if you go for lingering. As for hand disruption, sculler is better than spells for us. If you go this route, I'd go for wasteland strangler which I think is going to better than shriekmaw. You also need 4 flickerwisp. Always. Without wisp or vial, your list really isn't D&T.
Yeah, packrat has been tried before. I've never run it as a 4 of personally. I think PasstheChips tried it as a 4 of with conifdant as well. Perhaps he can provide some insight towards having that many, but I usually only want it as a 2 of. It gets a lot better with vial so you can flash it in and then discard to make a token. Also you can throw extra vials to it.
I am curious how well the new lili works. It is a card I've been meaning to give a spin for a while. We all got pretty excited about it, but I don't remember anybody really testing her. Let us know on that one.
Sorry, but your list really just isn't D&T right now. To make it work, you need fetches to start. Then if you want to make it into D&T you need wisp and vial.
Is that to say I should not be running geist? While you're correct in that Geist can have creature trouble, my hopes were that I could get their dudes out of the way enough with flickers, surprise giest via vial or coco or go through with Eiganjo or exalted. I think you're right that I could go with some more noncreature taxers, but I find that all the MUs that geist is really good in are the same as the ones where vryn really shines which makes me wonder if it's overkill to have both. Perhaps I could change the cocos to something to help my damage get through like vapor snag or even hero's blade. Maybe even back to the swords? Actually thinking about it, I think the swords could be really sweet in a list like this. G accel with light taxing and skite to protect them with Gost to be equipped... Or maybe just resto?
On the mana base and your take: thanks! I was really trying to find a way to not punish myself too much with it, but still take advantage of the 3 colors. I agree about finks and I'd put more if I could find the room. It's really interesting to see your take on it. It's approaching the same idea very differently. I can see how Kotr could be a house, but I feel like the best use of it would be too get gq which is great with arbiter, but then you have to pay the tax to do it. I know there is a certain amount of sequencing to be done there, but maybe I'd be more into Kotr in a straight GW build where I could fit cards like crucible of worlds and or eternal witness so that you can get max land utility while also being agro with the knight. I think for now, at least with my microsplash, I'll stay away from him, but it's something to keep in mind for sure.
You're right. It does need work still. I came to you all because I was unsure which direction to take it. I think I know what I'll try next (swords). It's really helpful to see your more full splash as well. It helps to frame it and see how it should be curving out.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Personally, I think Coco is the superior choice right now because of the sheer amount of terminates I've been seeing. At least with online play, I'd rather have several somethings to be killed against that kind of deck and against a creature deck, it can stop them from going wide.
I can respect your wanting to go with just resto, but I have to put my opinion out there so that we don't all accept that resto is always better than Coco.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
If you want to go the Vapor Snag route, I'd take that as far as it can go. Something like:
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Flickerwisp
2 Restoration Angel
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Hero's Blade
3 Vapor Snag
Lands (23)
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Island
I guess I'm just not sure why you would run green in a build designed to abuse GoST.
I think you did a good job with the manabase. If it works consistently, your manabase will end up much better than mine. From a deckbuilding perspective, most of the time that a player runs lands that cause self-inflicted damage, that player is trading life for tempo. With this deck, I'll make that exchange any day of the week. The question isn't "should we trade life for tempo?" but rather "what is the minimum amount of life that we can trade without affecting our tempo?" It's possible (and likely) that I'm slightly overextended on fixing elements.
If you get the chance, give KotR a try. You're right, tutoring up a Ghost Quarter can be a very powerful play, especially because your KotR gets a permanent +2/+2 (first for the land that you sacrifice, and second for the cracked Ghost Quarter). By the time you have access to that line of play, you seldom worry about paying 2 for Arbiter, because it's just worth it. But in my experience, KotR instantly draws out removal. I've run 3 before, but if I could find the room, I'd like to add the 4th.
Sorry, I meant my list needs work, not yours.
Let me know if you want to bounce ideas around. Feel free to PM me. I just try to leave the atypical builds out of the competitive thread.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I feel similarly about Kotr, but yeah, I'll give him a shot at some point here.
Haha, I see. my list needs work too though. Roger that though. I'll try to put out some results with this bad boy before bringing it up again xP.
The reason I want to splash G and U is for the explosive speed of G with the tempo of U. Exalted on a turn 2 GoST feels great.
@mightbenno I've never seen meddling mage as a reason to splash U. You really need to know their hand to make it at all worth while. If I ran 3 vendillion as well, maybe I'd consider it, but I really don't think of it as a reason to run U. In my opinion the reasons to splash U are moorland haunt, SB options, Vendillion, GoST, Ephara, and maybe phantasmal image. Geist gets around cards like path, terminate, and bolt, abrupt decay, murderous cut, etc where the others don't. Lili is really the main threat to him, but I can usually guarantee other creatures are in play at the same time. burn sweepers are gonna hurt regardless, but Eiganjo actually does a lot of work with geist.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
4x AEther Vial
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Creature (28)
4x Judge's Familiar
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Restoration Angel
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Faerie Conclave
4x Seachrome Coast
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Oboro, Palace In The Clouds
3x Plains
1x Island
There are a few extra tricks to consider in this deck. One is that Glen Elendra can be bounced to reset persist. Another is that Spellstutter Sprites can be bounced as additional counterspells or Clique as additional hand disruption. The deck still runs four Flickerwisps as they are honestly the best thing about it. Instant speed Flickerwisp via vial or bouncing a Flickerwisp via Angel is brutal for disrupting their landbase. Cavern helps vs. the likes of Spellsnare targeting Thalia. I like Oboro vs. Liliana's +1 and opposing Tectonic Edges. I don't use Mutavault because I don't want more colourless land and Faerie Conclave while more expensive has evasion. It does come in tapped though so really it's up for debate but personally I want the extra coloured land.
Good match ups is any kind of control like Jeskai or Grixis, it does really well against Tron and any kind of combo like Twin, Bloom and Scapeshift, the added element of the counterspells shuts down spell heavy decks. Bad match ups are creature heavy aggro with smooth mana like Merfolk, Affinity and Elves. Jund is VERY swingy, three colour landbases are vulnerable to hate and Jund runs a lot of spells which are vulnerable to this decks hate. It can also be bled out. On the flipside Goyf can be a problem as can a weak opening hand vs. disruption + removal.
The splash of blue for WGu has been researched and develop before many pages ago in here. The most powerful and only cards to splash for are:
- Phantasmal image
- Mulldrifter
- Celestial Colonnade
This is from building and playing the deck in competition. Geist is a trap stay away from him we are not aggro, using a flickerwisp to keep him alives is losing value. V.clique as a one off is ok but is too heavy on the mana.
4 flickerwisp
4 leonin arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of thraben
3 mirran crusader
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Spellskite
2 Serra Avenger
1 Aven mindcensor
1 vryn Wingmare
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Linvala, Keeper of silence
4 Æther Vial
4 path to exile
3 Lingering Souls
Lands(23)
4 Ghost quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mutavault
7 Plains
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Auriok Champion
1 Burrenton forge-tender
2 engineered explosives
1 Celestial Purge
2 Relic of progenitus
1 Spellskite
2 Worship
1 Dismember
Like I said 2 days ago, I wasn't fond of Leyline anymore, So I will try something like sin collector and O-ring for now. If you have playtested with these, tell me how it went. I really like this mana base knowing that the splash we need for black only include pontiff and lingering. I was using canopy while having less plain, but I do love smoothing up the base with 7 plain to provide the turn two or three chapel. I fell more confident with that. The upside of utility like eiganjo and shizo does not worth the risk. Maybe i Will cut a plain for Shizo or shambling vent, but im not quite sure.
This version is surprisingly strong and fast, thank to kytheon, lingering, serra and crusader. You still keep the tax part, but you are able to push damage airborne while protecting your ass and tax at the same time. Next time I will give another try to the GW version since I played it the most. I do want to play 2 Gaddock teeg main!
If you have any hint or ideas let me know, and like I said in my other post, IF your did not give a try to kytheon in monowhite or BW, *JUST DO IT*. I will never turn back. The number of kytheon is the only issue. Maybe I will cut down to two, but I am not quite sure. Kytheon Protect other threat only by being a nuisance as a 1 drop. and he is the guy you want to have as a bodyguard on the ground, and you don't need him flipped to do so. He block tasigur and gurmag for days. So why would you care wounding your topdeck mode with dryad anymore! Dryad or owl slow them. Kytheon block them! Anyway that's all for now. Have a great day guys!
Pierre-Alexandre
I am working on an aristocrats deck so I just don't have the money for them right now, but I love the death and taxes strategy..
So I guess my question is this, can I make a death and taxes list somehow..or do I have to go over to the hatebears thread instead?
I have played hatebears quite a few times, but I always found myself leaning more towards the areas that I know DnT tends to specialize in.
Also, I am very interested in that bant "microsplash" list. Thanks for any and all help
Edit: also I love how active this thread is
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Vryn Wingmare
4 Flickerwisp
1 Spellskite
2 Restoration Angel
3 Serra Avenger
3 Blade Splicer
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Archangel of Tithes
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Lands (23)
13 Plains
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Mutavault
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Stonecloaker
1 Sunlance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Paraselene
1 Worship
1 Wrath of God
I moved the Mirran Crusader to MD from the board and dropped 1 Blade Splicer from the list to make game 1 vs. elves/jund/grixis a little better (I think?).
The two cards that gave me hell last tournament were Liliana of the Veil and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy so I added 3 Leyline of Sanctity and a Sunlance to the board. I included 1 copy of Paraselene as that would be an awesome topdeck against tokens and bogles, though it could potentially interfere with my single copy of Worship.
My tentative boarding plans for my two trouble matches from last tourney would be:
Grixis Twin
In Leylines, Sunlance, 1BFT, Purge, RIPs, Stonecloaker, Worship
Out 2 Blade splicer, 3 Serra avenger, 1 Aether vial, 1 Archangel of Tithes, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Thalia, SoLaS
I'm not sure if bringing in Leylines is right in this MU, though I did get IOK'd turn 3 of game 1 (Crusader) and turn 1 of game 2 (worship) last time. If not, I'd leave in Thalia, Wingmare and a Blade splicer I think.
Jund
In Leylines, Purge, RIPs (Worship?)
Out SoLaS, 3 Serra Avenger, 1 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Blade Splicer (Blade splicer?)
Here I think the Leylines are a must and RIPs cut off goyfs, scooze and finks.
I THINK these are correct decisions based on how my matches played out but I'm not sure.
I have also considered adding Phyrexian Revoker somewhere in the 60 to help against elves and maybe catch a liliana or jace in game 1.
Any feedback is welcome please!
Going off of Karsten's article, here are the most restrictive mana costs that you have:
G: 14 G sources
WG: 20 W OR G sources, with at least 13 W sources AND 13 G sources
WW: 20 W sources
1WW: 19 W sources
Then, he recommends counting the Hierarchs as 0.5 sources each: But of course, all of that, as you mention, is before Æther Vial.
First, the bad news:
Without running Karsten's simulation myself, I can't give you an exact answer, because he has mulligan rules in place. If I used statistics to calculate probabilities, many "failures" would be hands that you would mulligan anyway. For example, Karsten suggests having 14 G sources in order to be able to cast Hierarch on T1 with a 90% probability. However, in order to have a 90% chance of drawing a G source in the first 7 cards of your deck, you need to be running 16 sources. (In practice, the odds are actually worse, because you have to find the G source in 6 cards, not 7, because that last one must be the Hierarch.)
But of course, Æther Vial messes with that number. For a Noble Hierarch, this is actually pretty simple, because you're probably interested in the odds that you draw either a G source OR an Æther Vial. In that case, for the purpose of casting a Noble Hierarch, you can just consider Æther Vial as another G source. Given you're running 4 Vials, you only need 12 G sources, before mulligan rules. (If you're considering the 6-card case, you would need the same 14 G sources that Karsten predicts, still before mulligan rules.)
Next, the worse news:
The math you're looking for is difficult. Consequently, I'm not going to do it. (Sorry.) Honestly, it's easier to simulate using Monte Carlo, which is why Karsten did that.
Finally, some good news:
I built you a manabase! Try this:
3 Windswept Heath
3 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
1 Forest
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Hey! I'm more than willing to give you some advice...
Briarhorn is not that good. If you want to keep it, it costs 6. I know you can get in +3/+3, but the best creature you could put it on in your deck can't be targeted by it because it has pro green... I don't know how you feel about aven mindcensor, but I'd go with at least 2, if not 3 because of it's T2 playability with hierarch. It really adds a lot to be able to flash it in like that.
As for your lands, I would not go below 23. I know GW CAN go to 22, but I really would not recommend it. 23 is really consistent. First off, a major reason to splash for GW is gavony township so I'd go for 1 or 2 of those. Pretty much any GW list you run across should be running those, 4 razorverge thicket, 4 temple garden, 2 horizon canopy, 4 ghost quarter, and then some combination of mutas, tecs, others(like Eiganjo), basics, and if you want to run fetches to make it even more consistent, you can, but I don't think it needs them. Your list isn't too heavy on G, so you can probably get away with maybe 1 forest, depending on how greedy you want to be.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
I knew that I wanted 6 fetch+shocks, so I could either go 4/2, 3/3, or 2/4. I was originally going to go with 4/2 (fetch/shock), because your list probably never needs double green. This gives you a virtual 6 copies of Temple Garden, but any redundant fetches would grab Plains instead. However, I thought it was likely that the first fetch would always go for a Temple Garden, so I opted to split the difference to save you from an extra point of damage.
It comes down to how often you want to be fetching for Temple Garden relative to other things. If you always want to find a Temple Garden, run that instead of the fetchlands. If you normally want to find Temple Garden, but also think it's likely you'll use a fetchland to get out from under a Blood Moon, split the difference. If you only need to find one Temple Garden, run more fetchlands but use the redundant fetchlands to grab basics.
If he isn't running maindeck Kitchen Finks, then double Canopy hands will destroy him, especially if he also runs fetches and shocks. Canopy is great, but I wouldn't run the third without having 2-3 maindeck Finks.
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The Reserved List
Heat Maps
an idea) so I went to my lgs shop and proxied out a DnT type deck that I tested a bit-and it seemed pretty good. Here is my list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-wb-death-and-taxes/
So yeah, I tried out pack rat-has anyone done this before? Thanks for any and all help
Anyways I have a question I hope you kind folks would be willing to help me out with. I was browsing recent SCG events and I came across this deck.
2 Archangel of Tithes
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Dryad Militant
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Serra Avenger
4 Vryn Wingmare
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Path to Exile
I know the primer recommends NO swords but this list seemed to do well (I believe second at a premier IQ) running the 2 swords. I guess I was wondering if people could explain the pro's and con's of running 1 of each of those swords. (I Know this is probably a frequent question and I apologize but I'm really just trying to get a better understanding while working to build my list (Which I can post in another post if people would be willing to help me out))
Thanks and love the Primer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Restoration Angel
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (4)
4 AEther Vial
Lands (22)
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Spellskite
2 Sunlance
1 Dismember
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Kataki, War's Wage
Let us know how it goes!
I look forward to hearing what kind of results you can put up.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Hey,
So I'm sorry to tell you it, but you really NEED vial. You went heavily into black without vial. Even if I ran your list with vial, I'd have to add fetches.
4 wingmare and 3 thalia is really going to hurt your hand disruption and lingering souls. Take a look at Death & Catmix's lingering taxes list. I think you probably don't want wingmare if you go for lingering. As for hand disruption, sculler is better than spells for us. If you go this route, I'd go for wasteland strangler which I think is going to better than shriekmaw. You also need 4 flickerwisp. Always. Without wisp or vial, your list really isn't D&T.
Yeah, packrat has been tried before. I've never run it as a 4 of personally. I think PasstheChips tried it as a 4 of with conifdant as well. Perhaps he can provide some insight towards having that many, but I usually only want it as a 2 of. It gets a lot better with vial so you can flash it in and then discard to make a token. Also you can throw extra vials to it.
I am curious how well the new lili works. It is a card I've been meaning to give a spin for a while. We all got pretty excited about it, but I don't remember anybody really testing her. Let us know on that one.
Sorry, but your list really just isn't D&T right now. To make it work, you need fetches to start. Then if you want to make it into D&T you need wisp and vial.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance