I've been playing this deck here recently, locally, and it's been quite the golden ticket to success. I, and a friend of mine, theory crafted how we could translate a sort of Deadguy Ale deck to the modern scene, which is the list you see here. Of course, it's blatantly missing the Vindicates of the common B/W Deadguy lists in Legacy, which sort of means it takes a hit to its denial strategy. Although, Mortify has been a decent enough stand-in catch-all.
Over-all, I haven't yet faced a rough match-up while playing this deck, which shocks me all the more due to the variety in my local meta. Few MUs are overwhelmingly in my favor, but the deck has a good day against the field, which is something I'm proud of.
If anyone has any opinions and/or suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. I don't know if there's a lot I will/can change, but I'm always up for being persuaded.
EDIT: As per request, I'm adding these decklists here in the OP until we obtain a proper primer, as these lists are the most recent proven lists for reference.
this got posted a few hours ago and does well when it shows up.
Thanks for the notification.
I like the inclusion of Gatekeeper of Malakir in one of those lists. I'm not sure the Victim of Night is necessary. I also see one list that isn't running Liliana of the Veil, which I think is an odd choice without knowing what kind of meta it's being played in. Also, the Disenchant in the sideboard is interesting, as I believe if you're going to set-up your mana base around being able to play Brimaz and the Crusader on turn 3, you might as well play sundering growth in the sideboard to get an extra Lingering Souls token on occasion. Then again, that's mostly negligible.
this got posted a few hours ago and does well when it shows up.
Thanks for the notification.
I like the inclusion of Gatekeeper of Malakir in one of those lists. I'm not sure the Victim of Night is necessary. I also see one list that isn't running Liliana of the Veil, which I think is an odd choice without knowing what kind of meta it's being played in. Also, the Disenchant in the sideboard is interesting, as I believe if you're going to set-up your mana base around being able to play Brimaz and the Crusader on turn 3, you might as well play sundering growth in the sideboard to get an extra Lingering Souls token on occasion. Then again, that's mostly negligible.
I'm the guy running the gatekeeper version.
On victim of night, it's nice to be able to kill things that doom blade can't (I'd most likely play doom blade over victim). Victim hits confidants, redcaps, and vault skirge, while doom blade can't.
I like disenchant over sundering growth because it's easier to cast, which is important if you need to kill blood moon.
I've talked to the guy that isn't running lili's and the only reason he's not running her is because he doesn't have her.
How has sword of fire and ice been for you? It seems pretty nice, I really should try it out, but I have no idea what to cut.
I also don't like crusader, sure he's good against b/g/x and pod, but 3 mana is a lot to invest in something that is easily bolted away, and doesn't provide immediate value.
For me, the worst matchups are easily r/g tron and scapeshift. It's just hard to interact with scapeshift since they can top deck scapeshift at any point (which is why I have the memoricide's), and turn 3 karn is really hard to beat.
What do you bring worship in against? Seems descent against storm, scapeshift, and burn. I might need to try that out. I also don't think we want kataki's in here, stony silence along with things like zealous persecution and lingering souls are enough to deal with affinity.
here's my list for anyone that didn't click the link.
I took out 1 gatekeeper and the mortify for 2 zealous persecution. Mortify is fine, but 3 mana is a lot for a kill spell, and that's generally all it is game 1, I really wish we had vindicate in the format, this deck needs it.
I also took out 1 drown in sorrow, fracturing gust, and 1 grafdigger's cage for 2 rest in peace and 1 rule of law.
I'm not sure if these changes are correct but they seem good.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
The deck looks sweet. I am thinking about testing this for the coming Modern season. I have a question though. Why Lingering Souls over Bitterblossom? did you test it with Bitterblossom?
I have tested bitterblossom. I find it's too slow and the lifeloss can be a liability in some matchups.
Lingering souls is better because you get an immediate board presence.
It is entirely possible that some combination of lingering souls and bitterblossom is correct though. We do have sword of war and peace and vault of the archangel to help offset lifeloss. but we also have bob, thoughtseize, fetches, and shocks that can, in combination with bitterblossom, put us in burn range.
But I have only tested 4 bitterblossom without the lingering souls. Maybe 4 lingering souls and 2 bitterblossom is the right number.
I have been thinking about cutting my 3 brimaz, since the big butt is only needed for blocking against pod and the odd zoo build you might come up against. But brimaz also ends the game quicker than bitterblossom plus equipment, which is relevant against combo decks like storm, scapeshift, etc...
I do think that this is a very competitive deck and is better than jund and g/b/x decks, but we need more people testing to find the best build.
One of the biggest issues with this deck is the high number of 3 cmc cards we have (the biggest reason why I would like to replace brimaz), and bitterblossom does lower our curve.
I'm probably going to try out replacing 3 brimaz with sword of fire and ice and 2 bitterblossom.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I like BB cause we get a creature every turn saving mana for removal or other.
im not sure which sword is better tbh, I love FnF and WaP, but want pro blue as well as the only green removal is tied to black and I love the untap on FnF.
Saw this in a legacy deck and thought I would see what yall thought I like it and it costs 2. Spirit of the Labyrinth. I still want to run batter skull as a 1 of, yes it dont play nice with everything else but that life gain and vig.
Think once I get my control deck finished I will try my hand at this deck.
I got like half the deck, wish it was the expensive half, since we don't have SFM I think spirit of the labyrinth will be a great card, I love gatekeeper of malakir but I think we are overloading on the 3cmc. I think dropping that, the victim of the night, maybe another card and then I dont think we need the tomb to make bbb easier. I would keep lil as the only double black cost card and we should cast it easier. this also helps out the mana base by giving us a land we can tap for mana.
I has no thoughtseize so I will run duress in its place with my iok. how about darkblast? wish we had a hymn.
Spirit is good, he just sees more legacy play as there is much more for him to hose in that format. Still, I only see him getting better over time as more cards are printed, but as it stands I think he is sideboard material at best in this deck, unless your meta has a lot of blue/draw in it.
I like BB cause we get a creature every turn saving mana for removal or other.
im not sure which sword is better tbh, I love FnF and WaP, but want pro blue as well as the only green removal is tied to black and I love the untap on FnF.
Saw this in a legacy deck and thought I would see what yall thought I like it and it costs 2. Spirit of the Labyrinth. I still want to run batter skull as a 1 of, yes it dont play nice with everything else but that life gain and vig.
Think once I get my control deck finished I will try my hand at this deck.
I got like half the deck, wish it was the expensive half, since we don't have SFM I think spirit of the labyrinth will be a great card, I love gatekeeper of malakir but I think we are overloading on the 3cmc. I think dropping that, the victim of the night, maybe another card and then I dont think we need the tomb to make bbb easier. I would keep lil as the only double black cost card and we should cast it easier. this also helps out the mana base by giving us a land we can tap for mana.
I has no thoughtseize so I will run duress in its place with my iok. how about darkblast? wish we had a hymn.
Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't do much in Modern. Most decks don't draw multiple cards per turn and the ones that do almost always also run Lightning Bolt. Also, why do you need protection from blue?
I like BB cause we get a creature every turn saving mana for removal or other.
im not sure which sword is better tbh, I love FnF and WaP, but want pro blue as well as the only green removal is tied to black and I love the untap on FnF.
Saw this in a legacy deck and thought I would see what yall thought I like it and it costs 2. Spirit of the Labyrinth. I still want to run batter skull as a 1 of, yes it dont play nice with everything else but that life gain and vig.
Think once I get my control deck finished I will try my hand at this deck.
I got like half the deck, wish it was the expensive half, since we don't have SFM I think spirit of the labyrinth will be a great card, I love gatekeeper of malakir but I think we are overloading on the 3cmc. I think dropping that, the victim of the night, maybe another card and then I dont think we need the tomb to make bbb easier. I would keep lil as the only double black cost card and we should cast it easier. this also helps out the mana base by giving us a land we can tap for mana.
I has no thoughtseize so I will run duress in its place with my iok. how about darkblast? wish we had a hymn.
We don't want sword of feast and famine. We can't use the untap effectively unless we have an active bob because it's turn 4 at the earliest that we would use it (turn 5+ more likely), the hand disruption is ok, but we have Liliana and discard spells. Plus abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse can kill the sword, investing 5 mana into something that probably won't effect the game outside of corner-case scenarios seems bad. SoFaI and SoWaP make more sense because the decks you want it against can't kill the sword and they both offer bolt protection, and SoWaP offers path protection. The swords are only good if they offer protection against the removal of the decks you are using them against. It's different for fae (who uses SoFaF) because they have counters.
Spirit is fine, but we really need each card to do something when we play it. We don't have a lot of ways to 2+-1 our opponent, so our threats need to either threaten to take over the game if they live, or change the game in some way. Spirit doesn't do much against decks running red (which are the decks you want spirit against). I feel like you are just asking to get blown out by electrolyze by including it.
Darkblast is a good sideboard card, it doesn't do enough in the main. Zealous is a better maindeck inclusion because it can help us swing for lethal if it can't kill anything.
I do like bitterblossom, but we probably need more lifegain to make it work, I've died from bitterblossom multiple times because we don't have a maindeck way of dealing with it. It does make mortify more attractive though. I've been increasingly tempted to try out a junk shell just so we have access to abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, and a good manland. It would also be nice to have scooze and goyf, but I'm not sure it's worth opening us up further to blood moon.
Something else that I haven't gotten around to testing with is thrull parasite. It's probably bad, but it's incremental lifegain and some pressure on our opponent. It's probably bad though because we like to curve out. It just seems like it could be a worse deathrite shaman. But it's 1cmc and would help soothe our life total a bit. Another interesting card is pack rat, because it lets us get rid of dead cards like bob's if it's too risky to play them, extra land, removal spells against control and combo, etc... it's also a threat that could take over the game quickly, and lets us hold up removal against decks like twin, pod, etc... and still pressure our opponent if they don't do anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I was just asking you don't need to get all mtgnerdangry on me with comments your just asking to be blown out. all you had to say was its good but here we have to worry about this. [you kids] need to communicate better. this community is horrible. im just out "."
I was just asking you don't need to get all mtgnerdangry on me with comments your just asking to be blown out. all you had to say was its good but here we have to worry about this. you kids need to communicate better. this community is horrible. im just out "."
I didn't realize I came off like that, I'm just explaining my thought process. Sorry if my comment sounded harsh, it was not meant to be.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Not sure where that vibe came from, I read the same post and didn't get any indication of angry nerd from it. I actually thought it was very informative and thought out, and provided a lot of additional context and reasoning behind why certain card choices are made. The term "blown out" is a very common phrase around here, us adults even use it. Probably just the nature of forums and a combination of projecting and reading it wrong based on past experiences.
Regardless, back on topic, this is a deck I've been looking at, as I've played BWR before. What advantages does straight up BW provide over BWR. Is it down to mana consistency at the cost of reach by having red (much like the BG vs Jund options?) Red seems to offer a variety of options, and I'm actually tempted to splash it just to be able to bring in blood moon and a few other red spells, but I don't have any experience with this deck to know the trade offs first hand.
First of all, sorry for being so late to reply to this topic. I've been playing at a few more local events with quite a bit of success, but more on that later.
I like BB cause we get a creature every turn saving mana for removal or other.
im not sure which sword is better tbh, I love FnF and WaP, but want pro blue as well as the only green removal is tied to black and I love the untap on FnF.
Saw this in a legacy deck and thought I would see what yall thought I like it and it costs 2. Spirit of the Labyrinth. I still want to run batter skull as a 1 of, yes it dont play nice with everything else but that life gain and vig.
Think once I get my control deck finished I will try my hand at this deck.
I got like half the deck, wish it was the expensive half, since we don't have SFM I think spirit of the labyrinth will be a great card, I love gatekeeper of malakir but I think we are overloading on the 3cmc. I think dropping that, the victim of the night, maybe another card and then I dont think we need the tomb to make bbb easier. I would keep lil as the only double black cost card and we should cast it easier. this also helps out the mana base by giving us a land we can tap for mana.
I has no thoughtseize so I will run duress in its place with my iok. how about darkblast? wish we had a hymn.
We don't want sword of feast and famine. We can't use the untap effectively unless we have an active bob because it's turn 4 at the earliest that we would use it (turn 5+ more likely), the hand disruption is ok, but we have Liliana and discard spells. Plus abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse can kill the sword, investing 5 mana into something that probably won't effect the game outside of corner-case scenarios seems bad. SoFaI and SoWaP make more sense because the decks you want it against can't kill the sword and they both offer bolt protection, and SoWaP offers path protection. The swords are only good if they offer protection against the removal of the decks you are using them against. It's different for fae (who uses SoFaF) because they have counters.
Spirit is fine, but we really need each card to do something when we play it. We don't have a lot of ways to 2+-1 our opponent, so our threats need to either threaten to take over the game if they live, or change the game in some way. Spirit doesn't do much against decks running red (which are the decks you want spirit against). I feel like you are just asking to get blown out by electrolyze by including it.
Darkblast is a good sideboard card, it doesn't do enough in the main. Zealous is a better maindeck inclusion because it can help us swing for lethal if it can't kill anything.
I do like bitterblossom, but we probably need more lifegain to make it work, I've died from bitterblossom multiple times because we don't have a maindeck way of dealing with it. It does make mortify more attractive though. I've been increasingly tempted to try out a junk shell just so we have access to abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, and a good manland. It would also be nice to have scooze and goyf, but I'm not sure it's worth opening us up further to blood moon.
Something else that I haven't gotten around to testing with is thrull parasite. It's probably bad, but it's incremental lifegain and some pressure on our opponent. It's probably bad though because we like to curve out. It just seems like it could be a worse deathrite shaman. But it's 1cmc and would help soothe our life total a bit. Another interesting card is pack rat, because it lets us get rid of dead cards like bob's if it's too risky to play them, extra land, removal spells against control and combo, etc... it's also a threat that could take over the game quickly, and lets us hold up removal against decks like twin, pod, etc... and still pressure our opponent if they don't do anything.
Well, I can say firsthand that Thrull is a very interesting card when I was play-testing it. It seems at first that it was hand-made for a grindier deck like this one, but that was not at all the case in the end. While we're not always able to do so, it's actually a better play just turn-one Thoughtseize or IoK, as it's more down the business road. I'm not going to say the Thrull is entirely off the testing charts right now, but I'd rather work the remaining kinks out of the core before I introduce something less business-oriented to the mainboard. I also want to try pack rat, knowing how big of a bomb that thing can be in limited.
Regardless, back on topic, this is a deck I've been looking at, as I've played BWR before. What advantages does straight up BW provide over BWR. Is it down to mana consistency at the cost of reach by having red (much like the BG vs Jund options?) Red seems to offer a variety of options, and I'm actually tempted to splash it just to be able to bring in blood moon and a few other red spells, but I don't have any experience with this deck to know the trade offs first hand.
Well, Modern is a format of typically over-stressed mana-bases. It's actually the same reason you'd choose BGx Rock over Jund - the manabase just hurts less. While limiting ourselves to two colors can seem to lower the amount of flexibility, it also allows for a more pointed strategy. If there was a single color I'd consider splashing for, it would be green and not red, as it suits what this deck is looking to accomplish more. I don't think it's at all necessary, however, as just going BW supplies more than enough ways to deal with quite a few threats (the sideboard is also quite the bomb). It also allows you to play more double black or double white creatures/spells, as we're less stressed to be able to pay those costs throughout the game.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out just how awesome I think Zealous Persecution is. It's actually won me quite a few games, and I'm surprised more decks that can run it aren't. Even when it isn't killing something, it's putting our creatures out of reach of being effectively blocked and creating very tough decisions for our opponents. I'm actually going to change up the list to add more. I'm also starting to agree with immapwner about the Mirran Crusader, as he just hasn't been as much of a bomb as I thought he'd be. I might consider cutting him altogether and just take some more business spells and a third Liliana in his place.
Regardless, back on topic, this is a deck I've been looking at, as I've played BWR before. What advantages does straight up BW provide over BWR. Is it down to mana consistency at the cost of reach by having red (much like the BG vs Jund options?) Red seems to offer a variety of options, and I'm actually tempted to splash it just to be able to bring in blood moon and a few other red spells, but I don't have any experience with this deck to know the trade offs first hand.
I've also played and had success with bwr.
With red you get lightning bolt, grim lavamancer, lightning helix, terminate, a manland, and some people play Ajani.
Lightning bolt and lightning helix can't kill goyf, spellskite, restoration angel, colonnade, or deceiver exarch. While it does give you reach, which is really nice, and bolt is only 1 cmc, I would rather play more actual kill spells.
Bwr also has a really weird curve, in your two drop spots you have terminate, lightning helix, and tidehollow sculler, chances are that you won't be able to cast the one in your hand while you have mana for the one you don't have in hand.
Bwr is also a lot more susceptible to blood moon than we are, this is the biggest reason I'm personally not playing red. Now lavamancer, terminate, and lavaclaw reaches are fantastic, and I'd certainly play them in here if they were black or white, but I don't think just those 3 cards are enough of a reason to make the manabase less consistent, just like I don't think abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, stirring wildwood, and scavenging ooze are enough to splash for green. I could be completely wrong here, but I'm terrified of blood moon, I've lost to it a lot and it really sucks
Bw also has a less painful manabase, I rarely have to lava axe myself turn 1 to cast a thoughtsieze and setup my manabase. That stuff adds up, especially if you have to fetch and shock again on turn 2.
You do get some sideboard options like sowing salt and anger of the gods, both of which are good, even though anger would be hard on the manabase. I'd especially like to play sowing salt in here.
I personally think that bwr is mostly this deck plus bolt, and while not having bolt makes us some-what slower, we are more consistent. If deathrite shaman was still around I could see bwr being the better choice, but without him I like the more consistent manabase.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I want to test out the Victim of Night's as well as the Gatekeeper of Malakir's, the latter I imagine to be great against ye olde Bogles. I've also sutured up the manabase a bit, growing less and less fond of the Isolated Chapels and wanting to fit in the fifth basic for the grindy games with Blood Moon involved (I have two Blue Moon players in my local meta). I still really like having the Sword of Fire and Ice in quite a few match-ups, as it has been a great source of literal card advantage and board advantage against Zoo (which I also have quite a bit of in my meta). Maybe I'll end up adding back in the Mirran Crusader's, as they're still great against Rock and the double strike with SoFaI is nice against Zoo (although, I admit, that's a pretty rare occurrence), and you can swing lethal in one turn against control with Sword of War and Peace. I've also changed up the sideboard, removing Kataki, War's Wage, as per suggestion. They were there, originally, as an extra boost against Affinity, as there used to be so much of it in my meta. That, however, has changed a lot, so their slots were better used for other cards.
I'll be seeing how this works out at the local event this Wednesday, but I like the changes, at least conceptually, and they look good on paper.
what do you guys think of that new JOU card: brain maggot. its not flashy nor a beater but it is tidehollow sculler 5-8 and i feel it had real potential when creating card advantage.
what do you guys think of that new JOU card: brain maggot. its not flashy nor a beater but it is tidehollow sculler 5-8 and i feel it had real potential when creating card advantage.
Tidehollow Sculler is more of a fill-in-the-gap card, in a way. Don't get me wrong, he can be really effective and I've grown to appreciate him for what he accomplishes, but he's no Bob or Goyf. I've already cut one of the 4 I was previously running, and would give no consideration to a less-functional pseudo-reprint as a reasonable replacement for anything in the deck. It just isn't feasible in my eyes.
First, I have to say that my dreams come true with this deck.
Finally a B/W Midrange deck that puts up good results. I think a lot of that has to do with
the great position of Zealous Persecution in the metagame right now. I like the maindeck a lot, there is only one thing I don't
get. The most successful list is playing 3 Doom Blade. Isnt't playing 2 Dismember and 1 Vicitim/Smother/Go for the Throat
just way better?
Anyone who has tested 3 Swords vs. 2 Swords? 3 seem a lot to me.
I, too am extremely happy about the results this deck is putting up.
I've tested with the mono-black removal quite a bit, and they each have their situational uses. I like Go for the Throat the least, as I don't like having dead removal cards against affinity... ever. As for which you should choose, I figure that's dependent on which removal hits the most creatures in your meta. I'm inclined to say that, in my experience, Smother is the safest way to go, as you do have Path's to take care of the bigger fatties out there.
On having three sword, I can't say as it is the right way to go. I'll be uploading a changed list later today where I've cut one of the Sword of War and Peace's. It hasn't been terrible, and in quite a few situations it's appreciable to have increased draw-chances on those swords, but in quite a few others it feels very clunky. Granted, this deck is still early in its development, so I still don't want to nail anything down just yet until much more testing is done.
-ktkenshinx-
2 Arid Mesa
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vault of the Archangel
Spells
1 Doom Blade
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Mortify
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of War and Peace
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
2 Sundering Growth
2 Stony Silence
2 Nevermore
1 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Worship
2 Fulminator Mage
I've been playing this deck here recently, locally, and it's been quite the golden ticket to success. I, and a friend of mine, theory crafted how we could translate a sort of Deadguy Ale deck to the modern scene, which is the list you see here. Of course, it's blatantly missing the Vindicates of the common B/W Deadguy lists in Legacy, which sort of means it takes a hit to its denial strategy. Although, Mortify has been a decent enough stand-in catch-all.
Over-all, I haven't yet faced a rough match-up while playing this deck, which shocks me all the more due to the variety in my local meta. Few MUs are overwhelmingly in my favor, but the deck has a good day against the field, which is something I'm proud of.
If anyone has any opinions and/or suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. I don't know if there's a lot I will/can change, but I'm always up for being persuaded.
EDIT: As per request, I'm adding these decklists here in the OP until we obtain a proper primer, as these lists are the most recent proven lists for reference.
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Temple of Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mutavault
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures: 13
2 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Pack Rat
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
4 Path to Exile
1 Smother
4 Lingering Souls
1 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Arena
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
1 Rest in Peace
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Damnation
2 Memoricide
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Blade Splicer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
2 Restoration Angel
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells: 18
2 Darkblast
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize
2 Arid Mesa
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Mutavault
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Damnation
2 Disenchant
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Memoricide
1 Rest in Peace
1 Rule of Law
2 Stony Silence
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange
this got posted a few hours ago and does well when it shows up.
Thanks for the notification.
I like the inclusion of Gatekeeper of Malakir in one of those lists. I'm not sure the Victim of Night is necessary. I also see one list that isn't running Liliana of the Veil, which I think is an odd choice without knowing what kind of meta it's being played in. Also, the Disenchant in the sideboard is interesting, as I believe if you're going to set-up your mana base around being able to play Brimaz and the Crusader on turn 3, you might as well play sundering growth in the sideboard to get an extra Lingering Souls token on occasion. Then again, that's mostly negligible.
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange
I like it so far but I got ideas I wish I could try.
I'm the guy running the gatekeeper version.
On victim of night, it's nice to be able to kill things that doom blade can't (I'd most likely play doom blade over victim). Victim hits confidants, redcaps, and vault skirge, while doom blade can't.
I like disenchant over sundering growth because it's easier to cast, which is important if you need to kill blood moon.
I've talked to the guy that isn't running lili's and the only reason he's not running her is because he doesn't have her.
How has sword of fire and ice been for you? It seems pretty nice, I really should try it out, but I have no idea what to cut.
I also don't like crusader, sure he's good against b/g/x and pod, but 3 mana is a lot to invest in something that is easily bolted away, and doesn't provide immediate value.
For me, the worst matchups are easily r/g tron and scapeshift. It's just hard to interact with scapeshift since they can top deck scapeshift at any point (which is why I have the memoricide's), and turn 3 karn is really hard to beat.
What do you bring worship in against? Seems descent against storm, scapeshift, and burn. I might need to try that out. I also don't think we want kataki's in here, stony silence along with things like zealous persecution and lingering souls are enough to deal with affinity.
here's my list for anyone that didn't click the link.
1 fetid heath
3 godless shrine
4 marsh flats
2 temple of silence
3 verdant catacombs
2 plains
2 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 tectonic edge
2 vault of the archangel
Creatures: 13
4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
2 gatekeeper of malakir
3 brimaz, king of oreskos
1 slaughter pact
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
2 victim of night
2 zealous persecution
4 lingering souls
Other: 5
3 Liliana of the veil
2 sword of war and peace
2 grafdigger's cage
2 disenchant
2 rest in peace
3 stony silence
1 drown in sorrow
1 rule of law
2 fulminator mage
2 memoricide
I took out 1 gatekeeper and the mortify for 2 zealous persecution. Mortify is fine, but 3 mana is a lot for a kill spell, and that's generally all it is game 1, I really wish we had vindicate in the format, this deck needs it.
I also took out 1 drown in sorrow, fracturing gust, and 1 grafdigger's cage for 2 rest in peace and 1 rule of law.
I'm not sure if these changes are correct but they seem good.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I have tested bitterblossom. I find it's too slow and the lifeloss can be a liability in some matchups.
Lingering souls is better because you get an immediate board presence.
It is entirely possible that some combination of lingering souls and bitterblossom is correct though. We do have sword of war and peace and vault of the archangel to help offset lifeloss. but we also have bob, thoughtseize, fetches, and shocks that can, in combination with bitterblossom, put us in burn range.
But I have only tested 4 bitterblossom without the lingering souls. Maybe 4 lingering souls and 2 bitterblossom is the right number.
I have been thinking about cutting my 3 brimaz, since the big butt is only needed for blocking against pod and the odd zoo build you might come up against. But brimaz also ends the game quicker than bitterblossom plus equipment, which is relevant against combo decks like storm, scapeshift, etc...
I do think that this is a very competitive deck and is better than jund and g/b/x decks, but we need more people testing to find the best build.
One of the biggest issues with this deck is the high number of 3 cmc cards we have (the biggest reason why I would like to replace brimaz), and bitterblossom does lower our curve.
I'm probably going to try out replacing 3 brimaz with sword of fire and ice and 2 bitterblossom.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
im not sure which sword is better tbh, I love FnF and WaP, but want pro blue as well as the only green removal is tied to black and I love the untap on FnF.
Saw this in a legacy deck and thought I would see what yall thought I like it and it costs 2.
Spirit of the Labyrinth. I still want to run batter skull as a 1 of, yes it dont play nice with everything else but that life gain and vig.
Think once I get my control deck finished I will try my hand at this deck.
I got like half the deck, wish it was the expensive half, since we don't have SFM I think spirit of the labyrinth will be a great card, I love gatekeeper of malakir but I think we are overloading on the 3cmc. I think dropping that, the victim of the night, maybe another card and then I dont think we need the tomb to make bbb easier. I would keep lil as the only double black cost card and we should cast it easier. this also helps out the mana base by giving us a land we can tap for mana.
I has no thoughtseize so I will run duress in its place with my iok. how about darkblast? wish we had a hymn.
Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't do much in Modern. Most decks don't draw multiple cards per turn and the ones that do almost always also run Lightning Bolt. Also, why do you need protection from blue?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
We don't want sword of feast and famine. We can't use the untap effectively unless we have an active bob because it's turn 4 at the earliest that we would use it (turn 5+ more likely), the hand disruption is ok, but we have Liliana and discard spells. Plus abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse can kill the sword, investing 5 mana into something that probably won't effect the game outside of corner-case scenarios seems bad. SoFaI and SoWaP make more sense because the decks you want it against can't kill the sword and they both offer bolt protection, and SoWaP offers path protection. The swords are only good if they offer protection against the removal of the decks you are using them against. It's different for fae (who uses SoFaF) because they have counters.
Spirit is fine, but we really need each card to do something when we play it. We don't have a lot of ways to 2+-1 our opponent, so our threats need to either threaten to take over the game if they live, or change the game in some way. Spirit doesn't do much against decks running red (which are the decks you want spirit against). I feel like you are just asking to get blown out by electrolyze by including it.
Darkblast is a good sideboard card, it doesn't do enough in the main. Zealous is a better maindeck inclusion because it can help us swing for lethal if it can't kill anything.
I do like bitterblossom, but we probably need more lifegain to make it work, I've died from bitterblossom multiple times because we don't have a maindeck way of dealing with it. It does make mortify more attractive though. I've been increasingly tempted to try out a junk shell just so we have access to abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, and a good manland. It would also be nice to have scooze and goyf, but I'm not sure it's worth opening us up further to blood moon.
Something else that I haven't gotten around to testing with is thrull parasite. It's probably bad, but it's incremental lifegain and some pressure on our opponent. It's probably bad though because we like to curve out. It just seems like it could be a worse deathrite shaman. But it's 1cmc and would help soothe our life total a bit. Another interesting card is pack rat, because it lets us get rid of dead cards like bob's if it's too risky to play them, extra land, removal spells against control and combo, etc... it's also a threat that could take over the game quickly, and lets us hold up removal against decks like twin, pod, etc... and still pressure our opponent if they don't do anything.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Warning for Flaming. t_c
I didn't realize I came off like that, I'm just explaining my thought process. Sorry if my comment sounded harsh, it was not meant to be.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Regardless, back on topic, this is a deck I've been looking at, as I've played BWR before. What advantages does straight up BW provide over BWR. Is it down to mana consistency at the cost of reach by having red (much like the BG vs Jund options?) Red seems to offer a variety of options, and I'm actually tempted to splash it just to be able to bring in blood moon and a few other red spells, but I don't have any experience with this deck to know the trade offs first hand.
Well, I can say firsthand that Thrull is a very interesting card when I was play-testing it. It seems at first that it was hand-made for a grindier deck like this one, but that was not at all the case in the end. While we're not always able to do so, it's actually a better play just turn-one Thoughtseize or IoK, as it's more down the business road. I'm not going to say the Thrull is entirely off the testing charts right now, but I'd rather work the remaining kinks out of the core before I introduce something less business-oriented to the mainboard. I also want to try pack rat, knowing how big of a bomb that thing can be in limited.
Well, Modern is a format of typically over-stressed mana-bases. It's actually the same reason you'd choose BGx Rock over Jund - the manabase just hurts less. While limiting ourselves to two colors can seem to lower the amount of flexibility, it also allows for a more pointed strategy. If there was a single color I'd consider splashing for, it would be green and not red, as it suits what this deck is looking to accomplish more. I don't think it's at all necessary, however, as just going BW supplies more than enough ways to deal with quite a few threats (the sideboard is also quite the bomb). It also allows you to play more double black or double white creatures/spells, as we're less stressed to be able to pay those costs throughout the game.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out just how awesome I think Zealous Persecution is. It's actually won me quite a few games, and I'm surprised more decks that can run it aren't. Even when it isn't killing something, it's putting our creatures out of reach of being effectively blocked and creating very tough decisions for our opponents. I'm actually going to change up the list to add more. I'm also starting to agree with immapwner about the Mirran Crusader, as he just hasn't been as much of a bomb as I thought he'd be. I might consider cutting him altogether and just take some more business spells and a third Liliana in his place.
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange
I've also played and had success with bwr.
With red you get lightning bolt, grim lavamancer, lightning helix, terminate, a manland, and some people play Ajani.
Lightning bolt and lightning helix can't kill goyf, spellskite, restoration angel, colonnade, or deceiver exarch. While it does give you reach, which is really nice, and bolt is only 1 cmc, I would rather play more actual kill spells.
Bwr also has a really weird curve, in your two drop spots you have terminate, lightning helix, and tidehollow sculler, chances are that you won't be able to cast the one in your hand while you have mana for the one you don't have in hand.
Bwr is also a lot more susceptible to blood moon than we are, this is the biggest reason I'm personally not playing red. Now lavamancer, terminate, and lavaclaw reaches are fantastic, and I'd certainly play them in here if they were black or white, but I don't think just those 3 cards are enough of a reason to make the manabase less consistent, just like I don't think abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, stirring wildwood, and scavenging ooze are enough to splash for green. I could be completely wrong here, but I'm terrified of blood moon, I've lost to it a lot and it really sucks
Bw also has a less painful manabase, I rarely have to lava axe myself turn 1 to cast a thoughtsieze and setup my manabase. That stuff adds up, especially if you have to fetch and shock again on turn 2.
You do get some sideboard options like sowing salt and anger of the gods, both of which are good, even though anger would be hard on the manabase. I'd especially like to play sowing salt in here.
I personally think that bwr is mostly this deck plus bolt, and while not having bolt makes us some-what slower, we are more consistent. If deathrite shaman was still around I could see bwr being the better choice, but without him I like the more consistent manabase.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Verdant Catacombs
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of War and Peace
3 Thoughtseize
2 Victim of Night
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
2 Sundering Growth
3 Stony Silence
2 Nevermore
2 Rest in Peace
1 Worship
2 Fulminator Mage
I want to test out the Victim of Night's as well as the Gatekeeper of Malakir's, the latter I imagine to be great against ye olde Bogles. I've also sutured up the manabase a bit, growing less and less fond of the Isolated Chapels and wanting to fit in the fifth basic for the grindy games with Blood Moon involved (I have two Blue Moon players in my local meta). I still really like having the Sword of Fire and Ice in quite a few match-ups, as it has been a great source of literal card advantage and board advantage against Zoo (which I also have quite a bit of in my meta). Maybe I'll end up adding back in the Mirran Crusader's, as they're still great against Rock and the double strike with SoFaI is nice against Zoo (although, I admit, that's a pretty rare occurrence), and you can swing lethal in one turn against control with Sword of War and Peace. I've also changed up the sideboard, removing Kataki, War's Wage, as per suggestion. They were there, originally, as an extra boost against Affinity, as there used to be so much of it in my meta. That, however, has changed a lot, so their slots were better used for other cards.
I'll be seeing how this works out at the local event this Wednesday, but I like the changes, at least conceptually, and they look good on paper.
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange
Tidehollow Sculler is more of a fill-in-the-gap card, in a way. Don't get me wrong, he can be really effective and I've grown to appreciate him for what he accomplishes, but he's no Bob or Goyf. I've already cut one of the 4 I was previously running, and would give no consideration to a less-functional pseudo-reprint as a reasonable replacement for anything in the deck. It just isn't feasible in my eyes.
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange
I, too am extremely happy about the results this deck is putting up.
I've tested with the mono-black removal quite a bit, and they each have their situational uses. I like Go for the Throat the least, as I don't like having dead removal cards against affinity... ever. As for which you should choose, I figure that's dependent on which removal hits the most creatures in your meta. I'm inclined to say that, in my experience, Smother is the safest way to go, as you do have Path's to take care of the bigger fatties out there.
On having three sword, I can't say as it is the right way to go. I'll be uploading a changed list later today where I've cut one of the Sword of War and Peace's. It hasn't been terrible, and in quite a few situations it's appreciable to have increased draw-chances on those swords, but in quite a few others it feels very clunky. Granted, this deck is still early in its development, so I still don't want to nail anything down just yet until much more testing is done.
I hope this helped somewhat.
Modern Decks:
Grixis Twin
Abzan/Junk Midrange