@tomathan88. I noticed you took Leonine Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor out of ALL of your lists and was wondering why. Regarding 4x Stonecloaker, do you ever get them clogged up your hand due to a lack of other creatures and thus slowing the whole deck down? Lastly, you made a mistake in your Flickerwisp>Mangara tricks. You can't block the third creature since you already declared blocks with your Mangara :P.
@tomathan88. I noticed you took Leonine Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor out of ALL of your lists and was wondering why. Regarding 4x Stonecloaker, do you ever get them clogged up your hand due to a lack of other creatures and thus slowing the whole deck down? Lastly, you made a mistake in your Flickerwisp>Mangara tricks. You can't block the third creature since you already declared blocks with your Mangara :P.
hey, thanks for the feedback.
i took out the leonin arbiter because it cripples SFM, but i'm in the process of testing with it. aven mc simply can't do all the work on it's own, so that's out as well.
as for stonecloaker, you are right. i think i'm putting him down to 3 and jotun grunt up to 4. grunt beats SFM and bob, and can go toe to toe with goyf and win.
just played a quick match best 2 of 3, and lost. the deck preformed very well, but i was playing against 5cc and the continuous wraths/counter magic/removal hurt. he beat me 2-1. it was pretty close though, and even though i lost, i'm more impressed with the deck than i am disappointed. after all, the list i played was just the rough draft.
anyways, he had the grove/punishing combo, and i was extremely scared, until i remembered the tec edges. i think i am going to play 2x ghost quarter as well though, just to make sure i kill the combo. hurting man-lands is nice as well. i don't want to run too many ghost quarters though, as without arbiter and mindcensor they just make me lose a land and they stay the same. and they produce colorless mana.
EDIT: i might consider 3, but i think 2 is good atm, at least for testing.
EDIT#2: revoker also seemed good. i'm still inclined to leave it as a 2-of in the main, at least for now, but as i test i shall see whether it proves itself or not; whether i should have four or zero.
hey guys, just a quick thought, a buddy and i were talking about doing something like this for modern but he said he would want a 1 drop just to make it so aether vial isnt doing nothing the first two turns its out. so i sugested weathered wayfarer. what do you guys think of him? hew thins the deck as well as fetching out land and at worse hes just a body.
also, i was thinking. maybe a blue splash would be in order? just for countermagic and maybe mulldrifter?
and finally, would momentary blink find a place in this deck?
@apocalypse: tordeck is right, wayfarer was used to get karakas, and it doesn't seem very good without that application. over discussion with some of the other guys on this forum, it seems that if you are to play a one drop it should be giddeon's lawkeeper or that other one that's a kithkin that does the same thing (i forget the name atm). even better than student of warfare. stopping blockers/their biggest attacker is pretty relevant.
@tordeck: off the top of my head, vendillion clique goes quite nicely with the theme of 3 power fliers for 3. it's ability is also nice to do over again with a flickerwisp or stonecloaker bounce. preordain would also be a good card to play.
@nonamebob: i assume you've tested a u/w d+t list? i'd love to see it, you should post it sometime!
I'd been brainstorming a UW list for Modern, and came up with some possible inclusions, but I haven't tested them out yet, or even made a good list to test.
So I started my own thread for Life and Taxes, but Tomathan says it's similar enough that it should be included in this thread. The decklist that I'm at right now is:
The deck has some of the same hatebears as traditional Death and Taxes lists, but forgoes Mangara and Flickerwisp shenanigans for a lifegain package to help the deck stay in the game longer and allow for some very powerful starts (turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 vial in Martyr, sac revealing 4+ cards and play Serra Ascendant as a 6/6 flier with lifelink). Sword of Light and Shadow combines extremely well with Martyr of Sands. The Harrier/Lawkeepers (split to help protect against Maelstrom Pulse) can stall out decks that run a small number of large creatures. I haven't gotten a chance to actually test the list, but I used to run a fairly similar list in Legacy and did decently with it.
I don't really feel that the land destruction package is good enough in Modern to bother with. I might be proven wrong with testing, or it might prove necessary to deal with problem lands such as Grove of the Burnwillows and Dark Depths (assuming it's not banned), but for now I think I'd rather just run either Mutavaults or Plains.
I think that the Sword of Fire and Ice will be better maindeck than the Sword of War and Peace because of the large amount of card advantage that it can generate, drawing you a card and shocking a creature, but that will definitely be something that I test when I get the chance.
As for decklists already in the thread, if you're running a land D package, Weathered Wayfarer might be a worthy inclusion, enabling you to search out multiple tectonic edges or Ghost Quarters. And if you're running WU you might consider Fathom Seer (who also works well with Weathered Wayfarer - the two were run together in UW tempo in Legacy, which is basically the deck you're talking about), and Visions of Beyond with Sword of Body and Mind. Since most decks are going to be focused around CMC 1-2 you should also consider Spellstutter Sprite for a UW build.
@thraish: i personally like your list; however, it has one problem (one i struggled with as well): arbiter's interaction with sfm. i wanted to play arbiter as well, along with aven mindcensor, to make cards like path to exile and ghost quarter extra powerful. however, i don't like paying 4 mana for my sfm. if you've tested, or are testing, or plan to test, let me know if the problem comes up much and how you feel about it. if you aren't going with the quarter plan i mentioned, you could always run mindcensor over the arbiter, as it doesn't affect you; and it has flying so it's a decent beater.
@tordeck: i'm afraid i disagree with you here, i think at least the last canonist should be there. storm-type decks really hurt D+T. i guess sobm might be good in the side though...
@feathers: other people on this thread suggested that as well... i'm trying to figure out why. it doesn't seem very good to me... it's really conditional, and i'd rather keep my avenger/wisp/grunt instead of a 2/2... i guess it does bounce your guy and draw a card, but it just seems really conditional.
I'm not sure how big of a deal SFM + Arbiter will actually be. You want to vial in SFM if at all possible to avoid counters anyway, so you will often only be paying 2, which shouldn't be a problem for what you get. I'd also usually prioritize casting SFM turn 2 over Arbiter (unless I was trying to bait a counter) so that I could plop down a turn 3 Batterskull. I guess it might depend a bit more on the situation, like against Zoo or another heavy fetch deck, I might want Arbiter turn 2 on the play to try and lock them out of getting a second land, but if you manage that there's a decent chance they're either going to blow a removal spell on it on their turn or you're going to be so far ahead from them not having land that it won't matter that you have to wait a couple turns to play SFM. Also, since my list doesn't run any of the mana denial package, I shouldn't have as many problems hitting 4 mana as the lists running Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge.
If I were to add in more Swords to the SB, I would probably either take out Leonin Relic-Warders or take something out of the MD to put SoWaP in and put one of the other swords into that slot in the SB. Almost all of the wins I've had against combo decks playing D+T in Legacy have been on the back of Canonist (the ones not because of canonist were because of Revoker naming LED). It is also absurdly good against decks that run cantrips, especially in modern where decks will be using preordain and ponder which are sorcery speed, making it so that if they cantrip they can't play anything else on their turn. And Abolisher just seems like it will be GG if you resolve it against a counter-based deck.
As far as Ninja of the Deep Hours goes, I think if you're going to use that, it encourages you to run other cards that take you further and further away from D+T. If you're interested in the card, though, I recommend checking out the legacy deck FaerieNinjaStill - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=172132
Unfortunately, the deck concept is much weaker without Standstill and Force of Will.
As far as UW goes, I'm really excited to try out a deck with SFM, SoBaM and Visions of Beyond. It just seems nuts. It wouldn't be anything like D+T though, so I'm going to stop myself from posting a list and sidetracking the thread
Visions of Beyond says "a graveyard". You connect with a creature holding SoBaM twice (or, depending on the deck you're playing against, just once) and it becomes Ancestral Recall. I'm not sure how good it will actually be, because if you connect with a creature holding SoBaM twice, you're probably winning anyway, but at worst it cycles for a blue.
Edit: Ooooh, if it's a Mirran Crusader that you connect with, then it only requires one swing, and that card's probably good enough to run in some builds anyway.
Visions of Beyond says "a graveyard". You connect with a creature holding SoBaM twice (or, depending on the deck you're playing against, just once) and it becomes Ancestral Recall. I'm not sure how good it will actually be, because if you connect with a creature holding SoBaM twice, you're probably winning anyway, but at worst it cycles for a blue.
Edit: Ooooh, if it's a Mirran Crusader that you connect with, then it only requires one swing, and that card's probably good enough to run in some builds anyway.
oh yah, my bad. lol.
are you sure about the double strike interaction though? i'm not sure that works. if it does, sounds like an awesome deck.
I think that if you really want this to be up as a stickied primer, you need to spend more time working on it.
Currently, it is at best, a collection of ideas and thoughts from some posters compiled by you. It hardly resembles a primer.
Just saying.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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are you sure about the double strike interaction though? i'm not sure that works. if it does, sounds like an awesome deck.
Yeah, I'm sure. Sword of Body and Mind reads "Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, you put a 2/2 green Wolf creature token onto the battlefield and that player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." With double strike, the creature deals first strike damage then normal damage, so the swords trigger twice. So connect once with Mirran Crusader equipped with SoBaM and they mill 20 and you get 2 wolves. The only problem with that that I can see is that if you connect once like that you deal 8 damage and have 12 damage on the field for the next turn, so it seems like Visions of Beyond would probably end up being a little win more.
I think that if you really want this to be up as a stickied primer, you need to spend more time working on it.
Currently, it is at best, a collection of ideas and thoughts from some posters compiled by you. It hardly resembles a primer.
I agree to a certain extent. I think you do a good job of explaining your specific take on D+T, but I think you fail to explain other routes people can take with the deck. There are a lot of options with the deck, even just within Mono-White. Look at the differences between my list and yours to see how different they can be. I would add a section explaining possible card choices for different builds (such as the different hatebears) and how they can affect different matchups.
In my opinion, Death and Taxes' greatest strength is its ability to be pre-sideboarded versus certain strategies. MD Cannonist, for example can greatly improve combo matchups, especially in Modern where the combos are generally going off turn 2-4 instead of Legacy's turns 1-3. MD Martyr of Sands helps a great deal against dredge, removing Bridge From Belows in their GY, and gaining you life to help survive any zombies they've already gotten. Jotun Grunt is great against any GY strategy, be it Dredge, Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary or Life from the Loam. I haven't actually gotten to play any games with him yet, but Grand Abolisher seems like it will make any counter-heavy deck weep.
In your primer you say that D+Ts loses some speed going from Legacy to Modern, but I'd actually say it probably gains some speed. In legacy, D+T uses a lot of its mana/land in order to hinder the opponent, so we actually gain speed by using that mana instead on playing out spells, we just lose the ability to hinder the opponent's development. In addition, the switch from Swords to Plowshares to Path to Exile means that when we use our removal on an opp's goyf, it doesn't make it take longer to kill them.
Additionally, I'd mention in the primer that a big strength that you gain going from Legacy to Modern with D+T is the mana base. That probably sounds outlandish considering we lose Karakas, Wasteland and Rishidan Port, but consider that most decks that make the transition from Legacy to Modern end up with a much more painful manabase and susceptibility to Anathemancer, Magus of the Moon, and other similar effects, but the number of basics that D+T runs actually goes up during the transition. While other decks will be bolting themselves the first turn by fetching into an untapped shockland, Mono-White D+T's manabase doesn't harm us at all.
It's a little heavier on burn than most decks will probably be, but maybe not by all that much when compared to Zoo or Boros. (this BR list is my own creation, and I think it will be pretty solid) Wheel of Sun and Moon might be a decent sideboard card to add to the deck as well. It stops dredge and Punishing Groves and Punishing Groves seems like it will be good against all the builds of this deck since we run such small critters.
what are some specific suggestions either of you have? which section needs the most work?
i mean, i guess i could add another section named "alternate routes"... does that sound good? it would provide some other decklists and card choices.
any other suggestions? i went to jhoria's dredge primer and tried to pick up some pointers; however, i feel she even had less insight, just pictures. some good background info though.
EDIT: made a new section V. it contains a large amount of card options and a few other decklists. enjoy!
hey, thanks for the feedback.
i took out the leonin arbiter because it cripples SFM, but i'm in the process of testing with it. aven mc simply can't do all the work on it's own, so that's out as well.
as for stonecloaker, you are right. i think i'm putting him down to 3 and jotun grunt up to 4. grunt beats SFM and bob, and can go toe to toe with goyf and win.
and yah, silly me. i'll fix that section shortly.
again, thanks for the feedback
anyways, he had the grove/punishing combo, and i was extremely scared, until i remembered the tec edges. i think i am going to play 2x ghost quarter as well though, just to make sure i kill the combo. hurting man-lands is nice as well. i don't want to run too many ghost quarters though, as without arbiter and mindcensor they just make me lose a land and they stay the same. and they produce colorless mana.
EDIT: i might consider 3, but i think 2 is good atm, at least for testing.
EDIT#2: revoker also seemed good. i'm still inclined to leave it as a 2-of in the main, at least for now, but as i test i shall see whether it proves itself or not; whether i should have four or zero.
also, i was thinking. maybe a blue splash would be in order? just for countermagic and maybe mulldrifter?
and finally, would momentary blink find a place in this deck?
What are your thoughts of other U playables other than the counters and Drifter?
Maybe a 1-of Venser?
The Family
@tordeck: off the top of my head, vendillion clique goes quite nicely with the theme of 3 power fliers for 3. it's ability is also nice to do over again with a flickerwisp or stonecloaker bounce. preordain would also be a good card to play.
@nonamebob: i assume you've tested a u/w d+t list? i'd love to see it, you should post it sometime!
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Momentary Blink
Turn to Mist
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (allowing for all sorts of neat instant-speed tricks)
...along with your typical countermagic.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
4 Serra Ascendant
1 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Gideon's Lawkeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Grand Abolisher
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
16 Plains
4 Mutavault
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grand Abolisher
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of War and Peace
The deck has some of the same hatebears as traditional Death and Taxes lists, but forgoes Mangara and Flickerwisp shenanigans for a lifegain package to help the deck stay in the game longer and allow for some very powerful starts (turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 vial in Martyr, sac revealing 4+ cards and play Serra Ascendant as a 6/6 flier with lifelink). Sword of Light and Shadow combines extremely well with Martyr of Sands. The Harrier/Lawkeepers (split to help protect against Maelstrom Pulse) can stall out decks that run a small number of large creatures. I haven't gotten a chance to actually test the list, but I used to run a fairly similar list in Legacy and did decently with it.
I don't really feel that the land destruction package is good enough in Modern to bother with. I might be proven wrong with testing, or it might prove necessary to deal with problem lands such as Grove of the Burnwillows and Dark Depths (assuming it's not banned), but for now I think I'd rather just run either Mutavaults or Plains.
I think that the Sword of Fire and Ice will be better maindeck than the Sword of War and Peace because of the large amount of card advantage that it can generate, drawing you a card and shocking a creature, but that will definitely be something that I test when I get the chance.
As for decklists already in the thread, if you're running a land D package, Weathered Wayfarer might be a worthy inclusion, enabling you to search out multiple tectonic edges or Ghost Quarters. And if you're running WU you might consider Fathom Seer (who also works well with Weathered Wayfarer - the two were run together in UW tempo in Legacy, which is basically the deck you're talking about), and Visions of Beyond with Sword of Body and Mind. Since most decks are going to be focused around CMC 1-2 you should also consider Spellstutter Sprite for a UW build.
The Family
@tordeck: i'm afraid i disagree with you here, i think at least the last canonist should be there. storm-type decks really hurt D+T. i guess sobm might be good in the side though...
@feathers: other people on this thread suggested that as well... i'm trying to figure out why. it doesn't seem very good to me... it's really conditional, and i'd rather keep my avenger/wisp/grunt instead of a 2/2... i guess it does bounce your guy and draw a card, but it just seems really conditional.
If I were to add in more Swords to the SB, I would probably either take out Leonin Relic-Warders or take something out of the MD to put SoWaP in and put one of the other swords into that slot in the SB. Almost all of the wins I've had against combo decks playing D+T in Legacy have been on the back of Canonist (the ones not because of canonist were because of Revoker naming LED). It is also absurdly good against decks that run cantrips, especially in modern where decks will be using preordain and ponder which are sorcery speed, making it so that if they cantrip they can't play anything else on their turn. And Abolisher just seems like it will be GG if you resolve it against a counter-based deck.
As far as Ninja of the Deep Hours goes, I think if you're going to use that, it encourages you to run other cards that take you further and further away from D+T. If you're interested in the card, though, I recommend checking out the legacy deck FaerieNinjaStill -
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=172132
Unfortunately, the deck concept is much weaker without Standstill and Force of Will.
As far as UW goes, I'm really excited to try out a deck with SFM, SoBaM and Visions of Beyond. It just seems nuts. It wouldn't be anything like D+T though, so I'm going to stop myself from posting a list and sidetracking the thread
Edit: Ooooh, if it's a Mirran Crusader that you connect with, then it only requires one swing, and that card's probably good enough to run in some builds anyway.
oh yah, my bad. lol.
are you sure about the double strike interaction though? i'm not sure that works. if it does, sounds like an awesome deck.
Currently, it is at best, a collection of ideas and thoughts from some posters compiled by you. It hardly resembles a primer.
Just saying.
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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Yeah, I'm sure. Sword of Body and Mind reads "Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, you put a 2/2 green Wolf creature token onto the battlefield and that player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." With double strike, the creature deals first strike damage then normal damage, so the swords trigger twice. So connect once with Mirran Crusader equipped with SoBaM and they mill 20 and you get 2 wolves. The only problem with that that I can see is that if you connect once like that you deal 8 damage and have 12 damage on the field for the next turn, so it seems like Visions of Beyond would probably end up being a little win more.
I agree to a certain extent. I think you do a good job of explaining your specific take on D+T, but I think you fail to explain other routes people can take with the deck. There are a lot of options with the deck, even just within Mono-White. Look at the differences between my list and yours to see how different they can be. I would add a section explaining possible card choices for different builds (such as the different hatebears) and how they can affect different matchups.
In my opinion, Death and Taxes' greatest strength is its ability to be pre-sideboarded versus certain strategies. MD Cannonist, for example can greatly improve combo matchups, especially in Modern where the combos are generally going off turn 2-4 instead of Legacy's turns 1-3. MD Martyr of Sands helps a great deal against dredge, removing Bridge From Belows in their GY, and gaining you life to help survive any zombies they've already gotten. Jotun Grunt is great against any GY strategy, be it Dredge, Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary or Life from the Loam. I haven't actually gotten to play any games with him yet, but Grand Abolisher seems like it will make any counter-heavy deck weep.
In your primer you say that D+Ts loses some speed going from Legacy to Modern, but I'd actually say it probably gains some speed. In legacy, D+T uses a lot of its mana/land in order to hinder the opponent, so we actually gain speed by using that mana instead on playing out spells, we just lose the ability to hinder the opponent's development. In addition, the switch from Swords to Plowshares to Path to Exile means that when we use our removal on an opp's goyf, it doesn't make it take longer to kill them.
Additionally, I'd mention in the primer that a big strength that you gain going from Legacy to Modern with D+T is the mana base. That probably sounds outlandish considering we lose Karakas, Wasteland and Rishidan Port, but consider that most decks that make the transition from Legacy to Modern end up with a much more painful manabase and susceptibility to Anathemancer, Magus of the Moon, and other similar effects, but the number of basics that D+T runs actually goes up during the transition. While other decks will be bolting themselves the first turn by fetching into an untapped shockland, Mono-White D+T's manabase doesn't harm us at all.
EDIT:
I just tested this deck against a BR deck running Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows and... ouch. I definitely think Burrenton Forge-Tender or Kor Firewalker deserve a spot in the 75.
The deck I tested against was:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Staggershock
4 Blightning
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
It's a little heavier on burn than most decks will probably be, but maybe not by all that much when compared to Zoo or Boros. (this BR list is my own creation, and I think it will be pretty solid) Wheel of Sun and Moon might be a decent sideboard card to add to the deck as well. It stops dredge and Punishing Groves and Punishing Groves seems like it will be good against all the builds of this deck since we run such small critters.
i mean, i guess i could add another section named "alternate routes"... does that sound good? it would provide some other decklists and card choices.
any other suggestions? i went to jhoria's dredge primer and tried to pick up some pointers; however, i feel she even had less insight, just pictures. some good background info though.
EDIT: made a new section V. it contains a large amount of card options and a few other decklists. enjoy!