I tested the first place Cloudstone Curio list, and have not liked the Curios at all. They don't do enough, and the fact that they generally take up your whole T2 or T3 just feels so awful. Drawing more than one feels terrible too. Not necessary, but if you insist on the idea, it should be 1, maybe two copies. I would rather have something that contributes a lot to devotion or maybe Abundant Growths.
It took me a while to find the win-con. Basically it is the same as combo elves.
After a big Gen Wave or such, assemble Curio, 2 Garruks, and 2 Eternal Witness. Have 1 Nykthos in play.
Play witness to bounce witness with curio and return Garruk from GY to hand.
Play Garruk, sac other Garruk, use Garruk to untap Nykthos and some other land. As long as Nykthos + other land totaled at least 8 mana, you generate a net of 1 mana.
Repeat until you have infinite mana.
If you haven't found it already, alternate Elvish Visionary with another creature via Curio until you draw your Primeval Command.
Then alternate 2 Witnesses and play Command an infinite number of times, gaining infinite life and putting all your opponent's non-land permanents into their library.
This guarantees a win next turn.
I also heard about the alternating Garruk with Karn win con so your opponent also has no creatures to block with (along with having no lands and having to topdeck land).
This is what I've been playing on MTGO to some success. It's not the best deck and I have some bad matchups, but it sure is fun when IT happens. You know what IT is when you look at the list...
Mana Reflection is awesome. I just basically wanted to play a deck that had Mana Reflection that isn't Commander/EDH format.
Anyway, that's my current pet-deck. It's super-fun to pilot, and drops jaws when it works as intended. If left alone, or not killed fast enough, it will work as intended. Good thing other decks like Jund interact with me, else I'd be winning GPs n'stuff, right?
I also heard about the alternating Garruk with Karn win con so your opponent also has no creatures to block with (along with having no lands and having to topdeck land).
If done right you can pretty much win the game on turn 3. It's hard but it happens.
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Both lists in the OP are quite the brews and I love them. I feel like the GR list is more stable, while the Combo list is nice as well. The combo list, however, could use some tweaking.
Its quite draw dependent and a bit hard to understand. Another important note here is you can bounce Nykthos with Curio off of a Primeval Titan tutor and replay it untapped as your land for turn.
I really want another draw spell here. Maybe Abundant Growth over Fertile Ground...but you need the extra mana for early Primal Commands to help set up.
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Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
So from my previous post, I took Gavin's list to my LGS's Thursday Modern night. I played the list card for card, with the exception of the fetches and the Horizon Canopy, and with no sideboard. I also kept sketchy hands all night, mulliganing only once when I had a Nykthos and a bunch of high casting cost cards. This was done intentionally; I wanted to use the tournament as a learning tool, to see how the deck operates against top level decks in the format, what its limitations are with respect to opening hands, and what I have to worry about in sideboarding.
At the end of the night, I ended up 1-3. I beat Pod, lost to Affinity twice and Jund once. I actually got mispaired in round two as my Jund opponent actually lost his first round but had it recorded as a win. However, playing Jund was a good experience.
Some lessons learned:
- If your opponent has minimal ways to interact with you in the first few turns, you'll run right over them. This is what happened with my Pod opponent. Even with a Linvala on the table, it was too slow to stop me from going absolutely crazy and Genesis Waving for over 20. I dropped a turn 3 Prime Time in game 2 and my opponent basically said "How do I stop a Primeval Titan, and on turn 3 no less!"
- The deck lives and dies on its ability to get out an early active Nykthos. That means you either have to have it in your opening hand with at least 4 green mana symbols, or you have to be able to cast an early Primeval Titan to fetch up a Nykthos.
- This is what feels like the proper order to fetch up lands with a Primeval Titan - Nykthos, Wolf Run, Stomping Grounds. Once those are on the table, it's your choice
- I was surprised at how good Harmonize is. 4 mana, even in the early stages of the game, shouldn't be an issue, and is even reasonable on turn 2. That being said, I feel like it would be the first card to get boarded out in games 2 and 3 if I'm on the play. On the draw, I want to pull ahead quickly and this would be a decent way to do so.
- If my opponent has a way to interact with my board early, it can spell trouble, especially if the keep is sketchy. One landers can be keepable with the right cards, but if they have a way to deal with early mana dorks, you can be in trouble. You should play more conservatively, unless you just have the nut and can go on turn 3. That being said, a timely Pyroclasm or Maelstrom Pulse can just wreck you.
- Affinity comes down to one card: Cranial Plating. You can actually fight through one Cranial Plating, but two is pretty much lights out unless you can go off quickly. The deck does have ways to do that, but the window to do so closes quickly.
- With respect to sideboarding, I like Jarvis Yu's take on the board. While I didn't play any blue, I like Vexing Shusher vs anything that runs counter magic. I was thinking Boseiju, but Shusher seems just as effective. Given the nature of the deck, I prefer more permanents, but I can get behind his choices.
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Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I feel like Yu's version of the deck probably the most consistent. Although, congrats on getting your deck posted on the Mothership and featured for an article there. I had one deck of mine featured in that article, but as an honorable mention...it was like the last one listed too.
Your evaluation of the deck is spot on. I played a few rounds with it last night and it has starts that are absolutely devastating with minimal opponent interaction. It has the same mindset of Elves, but not has heavy with various decision trees and pin-point accuracy one has to have with Elves. You can punt with this deck and you can end up in a better position to keep going. I'm a big fan of the small, more value Genesis Waves when setting up (like for 4-5) and those have helped maintain a nice inevitability. That said, you can get lucky with small Waves. I hit 2 BTEs, Nykthos and Garruk one game and just creamed him.
One of the things I disliked about the Yu deck was the kill--Primal Command loop with Curio and Eternal Witness. You actually have to have a way to get infi mana and show the opponent how before you start Plow Under-ing their lands and getting Infi Life. I like the Karn-Garruk loop more; it's more cleaner and not as confusing the first time. However, most opponents I faced scooped when I casted a Genesis Wave for over 15.
Although, once you Waved enough into play, having a slew of creatures and 4 Prime Times in play turn 3-5 is enough to have them pack it in.
With respect to sideboarding, I like Jarvis Yu's take on the board. While I didn't play any blue, I like Vexing Shusher vs anything that runs counter magic. I was thinking Boseiju, but Shusher seems just as effective. Given the nature of the deck, I prefer more permanents, but I can get behind his choices.
Couldn't agree more here. Also, Vexing Shusher has the same amount of devotion that BTE has, which is big. Harmonize, both main and side, have been all-stars in the Jund/Midrange and Control match ups as a way to answer their draw spells. It's not as big as say Sphinx's Rev, but it's certainly a boost in cards. I thought about maybe playing Eldrazi somewhere in the 75--since this deck can make a ton of mana, Spawnsire plus sideboard Eldrazi seems likely. I'm for just having 2 Eldrazi cards to cast (Emrakul and Eldrazi Conscription) just to end the game right away. It's a nice way to attempt to circumvent Slaughter Games, but just going big with Prime Times could just be enough and maybe the Eldrazi aren't necessary.
Apparently this has been picking up quite a bit of steam online. 2 lists have placed first in the events in the last few days, and I've heard people mentioning that it's very common online now.
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I've tested a bit with Thorn vs Blue decks (UW, BUG, and UR Delver) and want to try with Spellskite for things like Twin. Any thoughts?
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So this deck (see list below) got first in one of the small daily events recently, and I decided to load it up on cockatrice to give it a few test runs. Here are my thoughts from playing it.
The first thing I noticed is how much I hated burning-tree emissary. I would much rather it be Strangleroot Geist, or even the higher cmc Predator Ooze or Leatherback Baloth. Emissary just didn't do enough, even if it offered a rare mana explosion in tandem with Nykthos.
The second thing I didn't like was the inclusion of blue. Coiling Oracle was very mediocre, and even Elvish Visionary was "meh" without any way to abuse it such as Cloudstone Curio.
Third, there wasn't enough land. You don't want to flood out, but you also end up mulling a lot more than you should simply from not getting 2 lands in your opener, which you ideally want.
Fourth, there was no way to search for Nykthos, and without an active Nykthos, the deck was just bad. Even playing something like Primeval Titan could help solve this issue. I still stand by Sylvan Scrying as the best means to find Nykthos, and I like how it also lets you lower the land count of your deck while still hitting land drops.
I do like the genesis wave variant. I've played with it a bit on MTGO, and it can definitely hold it's own, but I don't think this list was even close to optimal.
Could Heartbeat of Spring work in this deck?
Probably, but sometimes you just lose when you give your opponent tons of extra mana + an untap. Assuming your deck can consistenly find Nykthos every game (which is why you play scrying), you shouldn't have to rely on other mana boosting cards like Heartbeat.
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I play a mono-green beatdown deck and one creature I have been very pleased with that I haven't even seen mentioned here is Thornling.
He's an all-star mana dump.
Some thoughts, considering discussion has started again:
-mouthbreather's list is good, but some of the card choices are quite odd: no Primeval Titan, Witness or Visionary? Eldrazi? Polukranos? Most of the core creatures are staples here. Voyaging Satyr is slow and Garruk outclasses him instantly. He needs a turn to set up and can't contribute mid combo like Garruk can...assuming you go off through Garruk instead. No witness is astounding; the point of witness is that it buys back Genesis Waves and Legend Ruled Garruks. Its odd that its not here.
-Also, on Eldrazi, how often are you casting them? I find that i Genesis Waved them in more often than cast. A waved Emrakul doesnt win you the game...it just sits there. A hastey Emrakul is a different story.
-All the new sideboard cards that were overlooked seem like great additions. Ill adjust mine accordingly.
-Any deck playing mana dorks and x/1s and x/2s is going to get blown out by Pyroclasm...that's a given.
-The Primal command loop is WAY too clunky for me. I would rather forgo it and just do the Karn-Garruk loop. It ensures the win instantly.
If i was to play in a tournament tomorrow, I'd play this:
I've just played several games against Nykthos green with Master of Waves UR devotion deck. The first game my opponent had Primeval Titan turn 3, turn 4 found Craterhoof from Genesis wave...
Next games he couldn't do anything - Pyroclasm wrecks the deck totally
Which is why I've been an advocate multiple times in this thread for not playing a ridiculous amount of mana dorks, or creatures that are vulnerable to bolts and clasms.
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Some thoughts, considering discussion has started again:
-mouthbreather's list is good, but some of the card choices are quite odd: no Primeval Titan, Witness or Visionary? Eldrazi? Polukranos? Most of the core creatures are staples here. Voyaging Satyr is slow and Garruk outclasses him instantly. He needs a turn to set up and can't contribute mid combo like Garruk can...assuming you go off through Garruk instead. No witness is astounding; the point of witness is that it buys back Genesis Waves and Legend Ruled Garruks. Its odd that its not here.
Prime time is there, look carefully. This list is dedicated more towards getting a big wave or an early prime time instead of the combo. I played it yesterday and it works beautifully, though i would strongly recommend a couple of vexing shusher or defense grid in the sideboard.
Satyrs make the deck vulnerable to pyroclasm though, so a suitable replacement would be good.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
4x Arbor Elf
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primeval Titan
2x Primal Command
3x Fertile Ground
3x Utopia Sprawl
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Karn Liberated
16x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
It took me a while to find the win-con. Basically it is the same as combo elves.
After a big Gen Wave or such, assemble Curio, 2 Garruks, and 2 Eternal Witness. Have 1 Nykthos in play.
Play witness to bounce witness with curio and return Garruk from GY to hand.
Play Garruk, sac other Garruk, use Garruk to untap Nykthos and some other land. As long as Nykthos + other land totaled at least 8 mana, you generate a net of 1 mana.
Repeat until you have infinite mana.
If you haven't found it already, alternate Elvish Visionary with another creature via Curio until you draw your Primeval Command.
Then alternate 2 Witnesses and play Command an infinite number of times, gaining infinite life and putting all your opponent's non-land permanents into their library.
This guarantees a win next turn.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Arbor Elf
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Eternal Witness
4 Predator Ooze
2 Spawnsire of Ulamog
1 Acidic Slime
4 Fertile Ground
4 Genesis Wave
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Mana Reflection
2 Primal Command
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 All is Dust
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Cloudthresher
3 Torpor Orb
2 Pithing Needle
3 Trinisphere
3 Witchbane Orb
Mana Reflection is awesome. I just basically wanted to play a deck that had Mana Reflection that isn't Commander/EDH format.
Anyway, that's my current pet-deck. It's super-fun to pilot, and drops jaws when it works as intended. If left alone, or not killed fast enough, it will work as intended. Good thing other decks like Jund interact with me, else I'd be winning GPs n'stuff, right?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
If done right you can pretty much win the game on turn 3. It's hard but it happens.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
BB, I love you, man.
Its quite draw dependent and a bit hard to understand. Another important note here is you can bounce Nykthos with Curio off of a Primeval Titan tutor and replay it untapped as your land for turn.
I really want another draw spell here. Maybe Abundant Growth over Fertile Ground...but you need the extra mana for early Primal Commands to help set up.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
My version of the deck from Gavin Verhey's ReConstructed article on Tuesday
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
7 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Primeval Titan
4 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Expedition Map
4 Genesis Wave
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Gavin's version of it
1 Stomping Ground
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
10 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Arbor Elf
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Regal Force
3 Eternal Witness
3 Harmonize
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Genesis Wave
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
From Jarvis Yu's article on Gathering Magic
4 Arbor Elf
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Eternal Witness
4 Primeval Titan
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
Spells (16)
1 Primal Command
2 Harmonize
4 Genesis Wave
4 Fertile Ground
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Cloudstone Curio
16 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Damping Matrix
1 Dismember
1 Beast Within
2 Nature's Claim
2 Primal Command
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Harmonize
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
At the end of the night, I ended up 1-3. I beat Pod, lost to Affinity twice and Jund once. I actually got mispaired in round two as my Jund opponent actually lost his first round but had it recorded as a win. However, playing Jund was a good experience.
Some lessons learned:
- If your opponent has minimal ways to interact with you in the first few turns, you'll run right over them. This is what happened with my Pod opponent. Even with a Linvala on the table, it was too slow to stop me from going absolutely crazy and Genesis Waving for over 20. I dropped a turn 3 Prime Time in game 2 and my opponent basically said "How do I stop a Primeval Titan, and on turn 3 no less!"
- The deck lives and dies on its ability to get out an early active Nykthos. That means you either have to have it in your opening hand with at least 4 green mana symbols, or you have to be able to cast an early Primeval Titan to fetch up a Nykthos.
- This is what feels like the proper order to fetch up lands with a Primeval Titan - Nykthos, Wolf Run, Stomping Grounds. Once those are on the table, it's your choice
- I was surprised at how good Harmonize is. 4 mana, even in the early stages of the game, shouldn't be an issue, and is even reasonable on turn 2. That being said, I feel like it would be the first card to get boarded out in games 2 and 3 if I'm on the play. On the draw, I want to pull ahead quickly and this would be a decent way to do so.
- If my opponent has a way to interact with my board early, it can spell trouble, especially if the keep is sketchy. One landers can be keepable with the right cards, but if they have a way to deal with early mana dorks, you can be in trouble. You should play more conservatively, unless you just have the nut and can go on turn 3. That being said, a timely Pyroclasm or Maelstrom Pulse can just wreck you.
- Affinity comes down to one card: Cranial Plating. You can actually fight through one Cranial Plating, but two is pretty much lights out unless you can go off quickly. The deck does have ways to do that, but the window to do so closes quickly.
- With respect to sideboarding, I like Jarvis Yu's take on the board. While I didn't play any blue, I like Vexing Shusher vs anything that runs counter magic. I was thinking Boseiju, but Shusher seems just as effective. Given the nature of the deck, I prefer more permanents, but I can get behind his choices.
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Your evaluation of the deck is spot on. I played a few rounds with it last night and it has starts that are absolutely devastating with minimal opponent interaction. It has the same mindset of Elves, but not has heavy with various decision trees and pin-point accuracy one has to have with Elves. You can punt with this deck and you can end up in a better position to keep going. I'm a big fan of the small, more value Genesis Waves when setting up (like for 4-5) and those have helped maintain a nice inevitability. That said, you can get lucky with small Waves. I hit 2 BTEs, Nykthos and Garruk one game and just creamed him.
One of the things I disliked about the Yu deck was the kill--Primal Command loop with Curio and Eternal Witness. You actually have to have a way to get infi mana and show the opponent how before you start Plow Under-ing their lands and getting Infi Life. I like the Karn-Garruk loop more; it's more cleaner and not as confusing the first time. However, most opponents I faced scooped when I casted a Genesis Wave for over 15.
Although, once you Waved enough into play, having a slew of creatures and 4 Prime Times in play turn 3-5 is enough to have them pack it in.
Couldn't agree more here. Also, Vexing Shusher has the same amount of devotion that BTE has, which is big. Harmonize, both main and side, have been all-stars in the Jund/Midrange and Control match ups as a way to answer their draw spells. It's not as big as say Sphinx's Rev, but it's certainly a boost in cards. I thought about maybe playing Eldrazi somewhere in the 75--since this deck can make a ton of mana, Spawnsire plus sideboard Eldrazi seems likely. I'm for just having 2 Eldrazi cards to cast (Emrakul and Eldrazi Conscription) just to end the game right away. It's a nice way to attempt to circumvent Slaughter Games, but just going big with Prime Times could just be enough and maybe the Eldrazi aren't necessary.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
I've tested a bit with Thorn vs Blue decks (UW, BUG, and UR Delver) and want to try with Spellskite for things like Twin. Any thoughts?
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Decklist
4 Breeding Pool
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures
4 Arbor Elf
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Eternal Witness
4 Fertile Ground
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Genesis Wave
1 Karn Liberated
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Primal Command
The first thing I noticed is how much I hated burning-tree emissary. I would much rather it be Strangleroot Geist, or even the higher cmc Predator Ooze or Leatherback Baloth. Emissary just didn't do enough, even if it offered a rare mana explosion in tandem with Nykthos.
The second thing I didn't like was the inclusion of blue. Coiling Oracle was very mediocre, and even Elvish Visionary was "meh" without any way to abuse it such as Cloudstone Curio.
Third, there wasn't enough land. You don't want to flood out, but you also end up mulling a lot more than you should simply from not getting 2 lands in your opener, which you ideally want.
Fourth, there was no way to search for Nykthos, and without an active Nykthos, the deck was just bad. Even playing something like Primeval Titan could help solve this issue. I still stand by Sylvan Scrying as the best means to find Nykthos, and I like how it also lets you lower the land count of your deck while still hitting land drops.
I do like the genesis wave variant. I've played with it a bit on MTGO, and it can definitely hold it's own, but I don't think this list was even close to optimal.
Probably, but sometimes you just lose when you give your opponent tons of extra mana + an untap. Assuming your deck can consistenly find Nykthos every game (which is why you play scrying), you shouldn't have to rely on other mana boosting cards like Heartbeat.
He's an all-star mana dump.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
17 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Eye of Ugin
Creatures (22)
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Primeval Titan
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Arbor Elf
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Genesis Wave
4 Fertile Ground
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Dismember
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spellskite
3 Beast Within
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
-mouthbreather's list is good, but some of the card choices are quite odd: no Primeval Titan, Witness or Visionary? Eldrazi? Polukranos? Most of the core creatures are staples here. Voyaging Satyr is slow and Garruk outclasses him instantly. He needs a turn to set up and can't contribute mid combo like Garruk can...assuming you go off through Garruk instead. No witness is astounding; the point of witness is that it buys back Genesis Waves and Legend Ruled Garruks. Its odd that its not here.
-Also, on Eldrazi, how often are you casting them? I find that i Genesis Waved them in more often than cast. A waved Emrakul doesnt win you the game...it just sits there. A hastey Emrakul is a different story.
-All the new sideboard cards that were overlooked seem like great additions. Ill adjust mine accordingly.
-Any deck playing mana dorks and x/1s and x/2s is going to get blown out by Pyroclasm...that's a given.
-The Primal command loop is WAY too clunky for me. I would rather forgo it and just do the Karn-Garruk loop. It ensures the win instantly.
If i was to play in a tournament tomorrow, I'd play this:
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Eternal Witness
4 Primeval Titan
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Fertile Ground
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Karn Liberated
1 Cloudstone Curio
4 Genesis Wave
2 Harmonize
16 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nix
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Harmonize
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Spellskite
2 Wrap in Vigor
1 Beast Within
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Which is why I've been an advocate multiple times in this thread for not playing a ridiculous amount of mana dorks, or creatures that are vulnerable to bolts and clasms.
Prime time is there, look carefully. This list is dedicated more towards getting a big wave or an early prime time instead of the combo. I played it yesterday and it works beautifully, though i would strongly recommend a couple of vexing shusher or defense grid in the sideboard.
Satyrs make the deck vulnerable to pyroclasm though, so a suitable replacement would be good.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay