You yourself mistook Jund and Junk for hand control strategies and only ceded that they were indeed board control after I pointed it out to you. So yeah, it seems obvious once someone points it out, but not everyone can be counted on to figure out the difference on their own. It's a subtle difference, but one of the secrets of deckbuilding is realizing how much power there is in nuance.
I never mistook Jund for being a mono black discard deck, and I never ceded that it was "indeed board control" afterward. If we're being realistic, it's board control, hand control, and aggro all in one unique ball.. aka, it's a tier 1 midrange deck that isn't defined by one singular aspect.
Also. I think we need to define how we are defining "hand control" since this seems largely like a semantic argument that magic players love getting into (see midrange vs. tempo). From my perspective, hand control is a disruption technique, and in some cases, it's a strategy. It's not a deck.
The point I was trying to make when I brought up Jund was that it was the most competitive deck that uses discard in the meta, and that there was a reason it doesn't play tons of hand control, that being the fact that removal, powerful creatures, and burn are simply more efficient as well as more versatile than playing tons of redundant hand control cards. Hand control also sees diminishing value the longer a game lasts (which may or may not be an issue). Also, by diversifying it's disruption suite, and overall strategy, it avoids hate, and has better all-around matchups.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Long story short, this isn't a new strategy, and you're not the first one who thought of bridge-rack control. It's a cool and unique strategy, but it has a ton of weaknesses.
Hey guys I just uploaded a video with commentary of the deck in action. Check it out here: http://youtu.be/vVD6eKj_rKI
@Rickster thanks for those lists. Seeing how other people are using the strategy gives me inspiration. These are the kinds of decks that I hope to discuss on MTGS forums, either here, or in my future primer.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Hrm. The video makes me want to try the deck at least a little.
At anyrate, I got to move this over to deck creation if this keeps going more into deck creation, rather than the idea of a discard deck. Would you perfer that memory?
Edit: played a game on cockatrice. Rage quit. Pretty funny. I'd like to test a green splash, for things like deathrite, or pulse.
Lots of theoretical discussion in this thread with very little testing data. I quickly tested the list in the OP against the Melira Pod list from GP Portland, running it with my buddies. We did 5 matches on the play and 5 matches on the draw with 8Rack, testing out both game 1 and game 2 postboard. That brought the total number of matches to 20 (5/5 play/draw in game 1, 5/5 play/draw in game 2). It's not a perfect test run, but it's a whole lot better than what we are currently dealing with.
Here are the critical statistics from those games against Melira Pod. Game 1 on the play record: 1-4 (20% win)
Game 1 on the draw record: 1-4 (20% win)
Game 2/3 on the play record: 2-3 (40% win)
Game 2/3 on the draw record: 3-2 (60% win)
Estimated Melira Pod game 1 win percentage: 30%
Estimated Melira Pod game 2/3 win percentage: 50%
Based on the twenty games, here are some observations about the cards in the deck and its general gameplay. These observations are both generalizable and specific to the Melira Pod matchup.
Need more removal
8Rack losses resulted from 3 different Pod win routes - 1) Beatdown, 2) Melira/Finks combo, and 3) DRS pings. Of those three win routes, both 2 and 3 could have been prevented and possibly turned around into wins if 8Rack had more removal at its disposal. The beatdown path is harder to stop because of Finks persisting and Gavony Township. But the other two could have been stopped if we had more than just 4 Disfigure. The DRS win route is particularly annoying because it always happened after Bridge was up and supposedly protecting us. As to the life combo, I played out most of those hoping that 8Rack could stall and win via decking. Unfortunately, once Pod gets into topdeck mode without fear of Rack/Affliction, it can just play everything and eventually overwhelm.
As a final note on this point, unless you already had Bridge out and/or Pod got a terrible hand, it is very hard to protect an active Lilly from just getting beaten to death. More removal would help keep her around.
Given the mono black focus of the deck, I would love to see cards like Smallpox, Victim of the Night, or just Dismember.
Raven's Crime is an MVP
Crime puts in a lot of work by keeping opponents in Rack range and locked out by Bridge. Excellent card. Unfortunately, given the prevalence of DRS, Crime often does a lot less work than it could do if we had a reliable way to kill Shaman before he starts winning Pod the game.
8Rack has a surprisingly fast clock once it starts dealing damage
Pod tends to bring itself down to about 15 or so life just because of fetchlands, shocklands, and Pod itself. Once at 15 life, all it takes is 3-4 upkeeps of some combination of Rack and Affliction to end the game. Lilly, Crime, and Bridge can definitely stall long enough for that to happen. I won games without Bridge and Removal just by getting 3 Rack effects out and keeping Pod's hand low.
Grafdigger's Cage saves games 2 and 3
Of the 5 games I won in games 2 and 3, I had Cage out in 4 of them. Had Cage not been out, topdecked Pods or Chords would have been game over. Moreover, Cage completely wrecked Finks as part of either the combo or just as a beatdown engine. Without this card, the Pod matchup approaches unwinnable.
8Rack has terrible topdecks
8Rack has a lot of dead draws starting at around turn 4. Nothing is worse than drawing Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind, or Duress when you are facing down 2-3 Pod beaters. Drawing a Bridge is always good, and drawing a Rack effect is often good. Drawing Lilly is only helpful if you can protect her, although multiple Lilly's are more welcome under M14 rules. Crime shines here by turning topdecked lands into value, but only if a) Crime is in the graveyard and not exiled by DRS and b) if you need to be trimming down Pod's hand. This suggests that we might want a card draw engine, whether good old Bob or something else like Phyrexian Arena.
The deck has a lot more potential than many players probably realize, but it also has quite a bit of room for improvement. That might not come as a surprise to some players, but it is nice to confirm in actual tests. Overall, I would say that the deck's areas that are most in need of help are:
1. Lack of removal
2. Lack of a draw engine
Again, these observations are all drawn from 20 games against Melira Pod. They would probably change if I had played against Jund, Junk, UWR, Zoo, Affinity, Scapeshift, etc. But as a starting point, this is a good place for us to work.
I'm on the Smallpox bandwagon for this deck. You restrict their hand, their mana base and have another sac effect, which will become more relevant against Geist with the new rules in m14. Other smaller sweepers like Infest could help against stuff like Affinity (and Geist it so happens), which I expect to see more of once people can abuse Mox Opal with the new rules.
So now you're saying the deck should rely on a 4-mana blue enchantment, as well? What ever happened to just playing 2-3 efficient discard spells, clearing the board, and then putting a draw engine and a clock on the table?
Would Armageddon be similarly unplayable in modern because it costs four? I think it's a nice sideboard idea to lower the boom against control decks with excellent topdeck potential, like Tron.
No one has mentioned the words "Shrieking" or "Affliction" much in the past few posts, though there is lots of deck building. Perhaps this is a "Single Card Discussion" no longer, no?
No one has mentioned the words "Shrieking" or "Affliction" much in the past few posts, though there is lots of deck building. Perhaps this is a "Single Card Discussion" no longer, no?
Per Modern Forum Policy, since the OP now contains a decklist.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Thanks for moving the thread cardfather. I will turn the original post into a full primer when i get home. I already have a bunch of lists that abuse Pox. They will get a lot of attention in the primer. Ive had decent sucess with deathrite as well. I will post more videos too.
I'm on the Smallpox bandwagon for this deck. You restrict their hand, their mana base and have another sac effect, which will become more relevant against Geist with the new rules in m14. Other smaller sweepers like Infest could help against stuff like Affinity (and Geist it so happens), which I expect to see more of once people can abuse Mox Opal with the new rules.
You just mentioned the cards that are contained in my list.
Infest was soo good in many games. My list is a first draft the I have played with a lot but haven't tinkered with. I like the 8 Rack idea and might consider moving my numbers a bit to fit 2-3 Afflictions in. I would really like to find a sub for Wrench Mind.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
You just mentioned the cards that are contained in my list.
Infest was soo good in many games. My list is a first draft the I have played with a lot but haven't tinkered with. I like the 8 Rack idea and might consider moving my numbers a bit to fit 2-3 Afflictions in. I would really like to find a sub for Wrench Mind.
What is your list that you were using? Just at first glance of the deck and its underlying strategy, I would be very hesitant to remove any of the 8Racks themselves; they just clock too effectively. If we think of the 8Rack package like a burn strategy, each of those 8 spells puts in the works of multiple Lava Spike, Bump in the Night, Boros Charm, etc. They end the game in a hurry and only at the cost of 8 slots. Removing clock for control might put us in a position where we can't seal a game that needs to end ASAP, instead of trying to prolong untenable board positions with a few more removal spells.
That said, I think that your suspicion about Wrench Mind is a good one. Wrench just isn't as good as it appears. Or, another way of thinking about WM, it isn't as good as the other cards that could go in its slot. The strongest candidates for that slot are currently either Infest or Smallpox, the latter of which I think is better in our strategy, especially if we can get some Life from the Loam action up in here.
Most games are won by a combination of Rack damage and recurring beats. What seems to be lost on you is that you can still play creatures. Just play ones that are either hard to kill (Mutavault/Bloodghast) or that have an effect then they go away.
This is what I have been playing lately. I actually have only 1 loss with the deck. That could be more about the guys on Cockatrice than the list though. That isn't a match loss that is 1 game loss. Which was game 1 versus RG Tron.
I do concede that this deck isn't as all in as a standard 8rack deck. Thinking Bob might be the draw engine in that deck. I think omitting Smallpox is crazy. It fills the role this deck needs. I tried Blood Scrivener but he wasn't were I wanted to be. If you look into the available cards there are tons of options. Ensnaring Bridge does blank a ton of the aggro decks. My issue with the OP's build is it's weakness to Death and Taxes. Which in testing his build is around a 40% matchup. Thalia is a nightmare for this deck. Especially if they keep you off your lands with Quarters.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
A big concern of mine for people looking to play this deck is how do you deal with Leyline of Sanctity? I've basically come to sideboarding this card as a 3 of in all decks with white in the mana base.
Another list. Dakmor can serve as a every turn discard.
DolZero I think the right move would be 2 colors to kill leyline.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
DolZero I think the right move would be 2 colors to kill leyline.
Green for Maelstrom Pulse would probably be best (taking out all Leylines in one go). Then you could still benefit from Deathrite Shaman and Life from the Loam. The only real problem is that you still won't be able to answer it with Pulse until turn 3, and most of the time you will want to blow through your hand disruption during the first 3 turns. Maybe Nature's Claim if you want that turn 1 response.
Green for Maelstrom Pulse would probably be best (taking out all Leylines in one go). Then you could still benefit from Deathrite Shaman and Life from the Loam. The only real problem is that you still won't be able to answer it with Pulse until turn 3, and most of the time you will want to blow through your hand disruption during the first 3 turns. Maybe Nature's Claim if you want that turn 1 response.
Green seems like the answer. I am testing mono for now. But my first list ran enough non basics to make me think you could run green. Pulse is good as is Claim or even Naturalize. Loam would give the deck a engine to really destroy hands with Ravens Crime. I need to see the matches where Leyline matters and other things like having the 8racks destroyed.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
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I never mistook Jund for being a mono black discard deck, and I never ceded that it was "indeed board control" afterward. If we're being realistic, it's board control, hand control, and aggro all in one unique ball.. aka, it's a tier 1 midrange deck that isn't defined by one singular aspect.
Also. I think we need to define how we are defining "hand control" since this seems largely like a semantic argument that magic players love getting into (see midrange vs. tempo). From my perspective, hand control is a disruption technique, and in some cases, it's a strategy. It's not a deck.
The point I was trying to make when I brought up Jund was that it was the most competitive deck that uses discard in the meta, and that there was a reason it doesn't play tons of hand control, that being the fact that removal, powerful creatures, and burn are simply more efficient as well as more versatile than playing tons of redundant hand control cards. Hand control also sees diminishing value the longer a game lasts (which may or may not be an issue). Also, by diversifying it's disruption suite, and overall strategy, it avoids hate, and has better all-around matchups.
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Shrieking%20Affliction
2 Bojuka Bog
22 Swamp
Spells 36
2 Disfigure
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Raven's Crime
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Sign in Blood
4 Smallpox
2 Stupor
2 Surgical Extraction
4 The Rack
4 Wrench Mind
2 Infest
4 Rain of Tears
2 Unmake
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Victim of Night
Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Bojuka Bog
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures 4
4 Dark Confidant
Spells 32
4 Disfigure
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Funeral Charm
2 Go for the Throat
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Smallpox
2 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
1 Darkblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Torpor Orb
@Rickster thanks for those lists. Seeing how other people are using the strategy gives me inspiration. These are the kinds of decks that I hope to discuss on MTGS forums, either here, or in my future primer.
It can chump block 'goyfs and has an instant, self-sacrificing ability so your opponent's removal doesn't really count. Oh, and it's instant discard.
It might be one of the only creatures worth running in a hardcore discard deck. The way burn just might play Vexing Devil.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
At anyrate, I got to move this over to deck creation if this keeps going more into deck creation, rather than the idea of a discard deck. Would you perfer that memory?
Edit: played a game on cockatrice. Rage quit. Pretty funny. I'd like to test a green splash, for things like deathrite, or pulse.
Here are the critical statistics from those games against Melira Pod.
Game 1 on the play record: 1-4 (20% win)
Game 1 on the draw record: 1-4 (20% win)
Game 2/3 on the play record: 2-3 (40% win)
Game 2/3 on the draw record: 3-2 (60% win)
Estimated Melira Pod game 1 win percentage: 30%
Estimated Melira Pod game 2/3 win percentage: 50%
Based on the twenty games, here are some observations about the cards in the deck and its general gameplay. These observations are both generalizable and specific to the Melira Pod matchup.
Need more removal
8Rack losses resulted from 3 different Pod win routes - 1) Beatdown, 2) Melira/Finks combo, and 3) DRS pings. Of those three win routes, both 2 and 3 could have been prevented and possibly turned around into wins if 8Rack had more removal at its disposal. The beatdown path is harder to stop because of Finks persisting and Gavony Township. But the other two could have been stopped if we had more than just 4 Disfigure. The DRS win route is particularly annoying because it always happened after Bridge was up and supposedly protecting us. As to the life combo, I played out most of those hoping that 8Rack could stall and win via decking. Unfortunately, once Pod gets into topdeck mode without fear of Rack/Affliction, it can just play everything and eventually overwhelm.
As a final note on this point, unless you already had Bridge out and/or Pod got a terrible hand, it is very hard to protect an active Lilly from just getting beaten to death. More removal would help keep her around.
Given the mono black focus of the deck, I would love to see cards like Smallpox, Victim of the Night, or just Dismember.
Raven's Crime is an MVP
Crime puts in a lot of work by keeping opponents in Rack range and locked out by Bridge. Excellent card. Unfortunately, given the prevalence of DRS, Crime often does a lot less work than it could do if we had a reliable way to kill Shaman before he starts winning Pod the game.
8Rack has a surprisingly fast clock once it starts dealing damage
Pod tends to bring itself down to about 15 or so life just because of fetchlands, shocklands, and Pod itself. Once at 15 life, all it takes is 3-4 upkeeps of some combination of Rack and Affliction to end the game. Lilly, Crime, and Bridge can definitely stall long enough for that to happen. I won games without Bridge and Removal just by getting 3 Rack effects out and keeping Pod's hand low.
Grafdigger's Cage saves games 2 and 3
Of the 5 games I won in games 2 and 3, I had Cage out in 4 of them. Had Cage not been out, topdecked Pods or Chords would have been game over. Moreover, Cage completely wrecked Finks as part of either the combo or just as a beatdown engine. Without this card, the Pod matchup approaches unwinnable.
8Rack has terrible topdecks
8Rack has a lot of dead draws starting at around turn 4. Nothing is worse than drawing Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Wrench Mind, or Duress when you are facing down 2-3 Pod beaters. Drawing a Bridge is always good, and drawing a Rack effect is often good. Drawing Lilly is only helpful if you can protect her, although multiple Lilly's are more welcome under M14 rules. Crime shines here by turning topdecked lands into value, but only if a) Crime is in the graveyard and not exiled by DRS and b) if you need to be trimming down Pod's hand. This suggests that we might want a card draw engine, whether good old Bob or something else like Phyrexian Arena.
The deck has a lot more potential than many players probably realize, but it also has quite a bit of room for improvement. That might not come as a surprise to some players, but it is nice to confirm in actual tests. Overall, I would say that the deck's areas that are most in need of help are:
1. Lack of removal
2. Lack of a draw engine
Again, these observations are all drawn from 20 games against Melira Pod. They would probably change if I had played against Jund, Junk, UWR, Zoo, Affinity, Scapeshift, etc. But as a starting point, this is a good place for us to work.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I took out disfigurs for abrupt decay, and one land for deathrite (as a 9th rack. It actually works btw.)
Would Armageddon be similarly unplayable in modern because it costs four? I think it's a nice sideboard idea to lower the boom against control decks with excellent topdeck potential, like Tron.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
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You just mentioned the cards that are contained in my list.
Infest was soo good in many games. My list is a first draft the I have played with a lot but haven't tinkered with. I like the 8 Rack idea and might consider moving my numbers a bit to fit 2-3 Afflictions in. I would really like to find a sub for Wrench Mind.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
What is your list that you were using? Just at first glance of the deck and its underlying strategy, I would be very hesitant to remove any of the 8Racks themselves; they just clock too effectively. If we think of the 8Rack package like a burn strategy, each of those 8 spells puts in the works of multiple Lava Spike, Bump in the Night, Boros Charm, etc. They end the game in a hurry and only at the cost of 8 slots. Removing clock for control might put us in a position where we can't seal a game that needs to end ASAP, instead of trying to prolong untenable board positions with a few more removal spells.
That said, I think that your suspicion about Wrench Mind is a good one. Wrench just isn't as good as it appears. Or, another way of thinking about WM, it isn't as good as the other cards that could go in its slot. The strongest candidates for that slot are currently either Infest or Smallpox, the latter of which I think is better in our strategy, especially if we can get some Life from the Loam action up in here.
This is what I have been playing lately. I actually have only 1 loss with the deck. That could be more about the guys on Cockatrice than the list though. That isn't a match loss that is 1 game loss. Which was game 1 versus RG Tron.
I do concede that this deck isn't as all in as a standard 8rack deck. Thinking Bob might be the draw engine in that deck. I think omitting Smallpox is crazy. It fills the role this deck needs. I tried Blood Scrivener but he wasn't were I wanted to be. If you look into the available cards there are tons of options. Ensnaring Bridge does blank a ton of the aggro decks. My issue with the OP's build is it's weakness to Death and Taxes. Which in testing his build is around a 40% matchup. Thalia is a nightmare for this deck. Especially if they keep you off your lands with Quarters.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 The Rack
23 Swamp
3 Wrench Mind
3 Duress
2 Gibbering Descent
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Raven's Crime
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Another list. Dakmor can serve as a every turn discard.
DolZero I think the right move would be 2 colors to kill leyline.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Green for Maelstrom Pulse would probably be best (taking out all Leylines in one go). Then you could still benefit from Deathrite Shaman and Life from the Loam. The only real problem is that you still won't be able to answer it with Pulse until turn 3, and most of the time you will want to blow through your hand disruption during the first 3 turns. Maybe Nature's Claim if you want that turn 1 response.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Green seems like the answer. I am testing mono for now. But my first list ran enough non basics to make me think you could run green. Pulse is good as is Claim or even Naturalize. Loam would give the deck a engine to really destroy hands with Ravens Crime. I need to see the matches where Leyline matters and other things like having the 8racks destroyed.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77