Let's not get caught up in the semantics of the title of this forum. Look to the Win!
Well, there is an extent to which we need to observe some standards around the deck. It's obviously not okay to go into the Junk thread in Established and say "don't play so much white; just splash Red or only use Lingering Souls." Because even though that might help the deck win more, that's no longer Junk. That's BG Rock, BG Souls, or Jund. Similarly, just because a deck uses The Rack, that does not necessarily mean it should be discussed here. It would just as obviously be problematic if we discussed RUG Twin, UR Twin, WR Twin, BWR Twin, and Grixis Twin in the UR Twin thread in Proven, even if there are overlapping cards between those decks.
It isn't hard to figure out where the line is. If it's a discard control deck, it can definitely go here. If it's a rack-based other deck, just use common sense. I shouldn't need to post a guide for how to do this; it works just fine in every other thread.
To be fair though, in the case of the Twin / BGx discussions ALL of those variants have at least been proven to be effective through widespread use and tourney results.
8rack has one thing and one thing only that keeps it included in the Established forum: the ability of the thread posters here to use it to assassinate the online meta with such a high rate of success. The problem posters in here are trolls that keep suggesting radical departures from the main deck that is actually putting up the only results keeping us here. My core continues to work just fine as a surgical tool that slips through the cracks of netdeckers and their predicable builds.
If you want to keep these loam lock deck in here fine, but their proponents need to start helping fulfill the conditions that keeps this deck Established. Start winning dailies. Start winning big tourneys that count for established criteria. They have to put up useful results or be made to gtfo by a mod.
I would think that the goal of this thread is to get 8Rack past just 3-1/4-0 status in a dozen dailies and get it to T8 more paper events, make more GP day 2s, or even sneak into a GP T16. That probably doesn't mean "radical" departures from the maindeck, but it might mean some departures from the so-called core. This deck hasn't changed much in 12 months or so, and yet it still never gets more than just over the bare minimum for MTGO dailies, and never qualifies for Established in any paper venues. People know about the deck. People have tested it, brought to big events, and tried to win with it. But something isn't working in all those instances. I would hope that people here want the deck to make it past this current plateau by whatever means necessary.
Also, this language around "my core", "my thread", "my deck" is really offputting and is likely one of the barriers to further innovation. Not only does it do a huge disservice to every contributor in the thread, it is also just not how Magic deck development works.
See here is where we diverge. While a big tourney top 8 finish would be cool for a bit, it would ultimately serve to unravel the whole strategy. I have said it so many times, the deck CANNOT ever become popular! It's far too easily hated out and any popularity leads to myriad sideboard scenarios that shut the deck down. This is a deck meta assassin, nothing more nothing less. Its anonymity is its biggest strength. The following statements are true about 8Rack:
You can use 8Rack to go infinite on MTGO.
You can use 8Rack to blow up your LGS tourneys until they catch on, then you hit them with something else.
I never promised anything beyond that. If you think you have a build that can go beyond that and still be called 8Rack then prove it. Until that happens keep the crap out of this thread. Having 6 rack minimum to any list is a good start.
So your conceding that the whole intent is to spike daily events or small tournaments, but that the deck will only operate until hate is pointed at it?
I think it has more potential than that honestly. Mindcrank infinite combo's can spike a daily as well, but we can devastate that deck with simplicity.
If we already assume the deck cannot go further than that, thats unfortunate.
It isn't hard to figure out where the line is. If it's a discard control deck, it can definitely go here. If it's a rack-based other deck, just use common sense. I shouldn't need to post a guide for how to do this; it works just fine in every other thread.
This is where the problem lies! It ISN'T hard to figure out where the line is, yet the last 10 pages are filled with people that have no idea where it is all the same. I do not know why this thread attract these types of people, but since it obviously does, we obviously need special "mod approved" rules for posting in this thread.
So far we have:
1) Deck must contain a minimum of 6 Racks
2) Deck must have a good reason to radically depart from certain core cards (Lili, bridge, ???)
Its a really good start. Can we start the process of infracting decks that do not meet these requirements?
One thing I could also do to get the thread back on track is to list in the Primer what I feel are really bad things to try and do with 8Rack ie:
-Do not try and make this an inefficient, goyfless rock deck
-Do not try to make this an inefficient, dredgeless Loam deck
-Do not try and make this an inefficient, artifactless UB Tezz deck
I will not post any specific lists so as to not "single people out", but I will damn sure put up a bunch of warning signs so folks can avoid these awful traps. Is that allowed?
I'm aware that I'm antagonistic at times, but I am 100% shocked at the apparent goals of the mod for this deck.
See here is where we diverge. While a big tourney top 8 finish would be cool for a bit, it would ultimately serve to unravel the whole strategy. I have said it so many times, the deck CANNOT ever become popular! It's far too easily hated out and any popularity leads to myriad sideboard scenarios that shut the deck down. This is a deck meta assassin, nothing more nothing less. Its anonymity is its biggest strength. The following statements are true about 8Rack:
You can use 8Rack to go infinite on MTGO.
You can use 8Rack to blow up your LGS tourneys until they catch on, then you hit them with something else.
I never promised anything beyond that. If you think you have a build that can go beyond that and still be called 8Rack then prove it. Until that happens keep the crap out of this thread. Having 6 rack minimum to any list is a good start.
It's not going to discourage people; they're going to do what they want to do anyway. Better to just nail down a core and enforce it.
I don't know why you're shocked; rogue decks that blindside people then disappear for awhile are a long-running thing in Magic. I think there's a chance we could go beyond that, at least some day (perhaps with new cards), but it's probably more likely Memory is right. If cards like Obstinate Baloth, Chalice of the Void, and Leyline are in every other sideboard partly for us, we're going to have a hard time. Possibly we could adjust our lists a fair bit to accommodate, but that might just hurt our strategy too much for us to be truly successful.
Rather than a certain limit to the number of racks, I'd say a better description would be that they use either the rack or shreiking affliction as their primary wincon. A deck with only one rack that uses Trinket Mage to tutor for it as their primary wincon counts, for example.
It isn't hard to figure out where the line is. If it's a discard control deck, it can definitely go here. If it's a rack-based other deck, just use common sense. I shouldn't need to post a guide for how to do this; it works just fine in every other thread.
This is where the problem lies! It ISN'T hard to figure out where the line is, yet the last 10 pages are filled with people that have no idea where it is all the same. I do not know why this thread attract these types of people, but since it obviously does, we obviously need special "mod approved" rules for posting in this thread.
So far we have:
1) Deck must contain a minimum of 6 Racks
2) Deck must have a good reason to radically depart from certain core cards (Lili, bridge, ???)
Its a really good start. Can we start the process of infracting decks that do not meet these requirements?
I don't think you're going to get people infracted for posting their own take on the deck.
I don't think you're going to get people infracted for posting their own take on the deck.
If someone comes in here and posts a 3 Rack list that's UBW or something similar and wins with Tezzeret's ult, I'm going to verbally warn them that their deck needs to be discussed in a different thread. Much how I would do the same if someone brought a Jund deck into Junk. If they keep posting, warnings and infractions will follow.
But by a similar token, if some dedicated 8Rack champion responds to that guy and says "gtfo kid; enjoy the infraction", then they are going to get infracted themselves (and you can rest assured that it will be an infraction and not a warning).
To be completely fair, our "true" (as some people have called it) version of the deck has never actually been brought to a large paper event by significant names (a.k.a. "pro-players").
There were a couple that everybody refers to and we all know them very well, but it wasn't the 8Rack deck. It was (and still is) called Mono-black Control and they played Bob and Smallpox. I don't want to bring back the old discussions where Bob should be in this deck, because (not without extensive testing) it was decided he's not (I even remember that at some point the deck was supposed to be creatureless, making all of the opponent's removal dead weight/draws). Smallpox was one of the cards included in the original 8Rack deck, you can see it in the (now pretty old) primer video. It, too, was dropped from the deck a long time before those people brought it to the large paper events.
Now, before you go on a "well they have better results with that version than with anything you got" rampage, I want to point out that I feel (and I believe Memory does as well, feel free to correct me on that one) that they would've made better results with the "core" or "stock" list that this thread has provided (the only real change since then has been the inclusion of Pack Rat). The people who played Mono-black Control (as they later admitted) had not even heard of the name "8Rack" or ever visited (or generally known) about this thread.
So, what I'm trying to say is that, in a sense, 8Rack hasn't been represented in big events by players who would do it justice.
People know about the deck. People have tested it, brought to big events, and tried to win with it. But something isn't working in all those instances. I would hope that people here want the deck to make it past this current plateau by whatever means necessary.
I mean, if you are talking about your general MTG "enthusiast" who shows up at an event with a brew or, in this case, 8Rack... that's not fair. Tons of people show up to events with UWR Control, Pod, Twin, etc., but only the best players make it to day 2 / top 16 / top 8.
Yeah, I've said for a long time those guys could've done better with better lists. A card like Smallpox just isn't reliable enough to hack it in a paper tourney. Plus, Memory and I have a lot more experience playing the deck, so between our lists and experience, I think we'd have a shot at a respectable finish. Doing well at a Modern paper tourney is all about knowing your deck inside out, including how it should interact with different decks.
Yeah, I've said for a long time those guys could've done better with better lists. A card like Smallpox just isn't reliable enough to hack it in a paper tourney. Plus, Memory and I have a lot more experience playing the deck, so between our lists and experience, I think we'd have a shot at a respectable finish. Doing well at a Modern paper tourney is all about knowing your deck inside out, including how it should interact with different decks.
Hell, I bet even I could do better than the MBC lists, considering the only time I haven't made top 4 was a 2-1-2 Pod,Tron,Hatebears,Affinity,Tron before Pack Rats.
The core list can day 2, it hasn't because people haven't taken it to events in a grand scale.
As for the thread, "it's a black discard deck so it's 8rack" is bull, if rack effects aren't your primary wincon you should go to the Mono Black Control thread, let them deal with your crazy splashes for a week and then tell us we're the unreasonable ones.
I won't even read posts with decklists that don't contain that, because to tell the truth, I haven't made over $500 on store credit these past months listening to people other than MemoryLapse and destroyermaker
MemoryLapse quoted:
[/quote]
See here is where we diverge. While a big tourney top 8 finish would be cool for a bit, it would ultimately serve to unravel the whole strategy. I have said it so many times, the deck CANNOT ever become popular! It's far too easily hated out and any popularity leads to myriad sideboard scenarios that shut the deck down. This is a deck meta assassin, nothing more nothing less. Its anonymity is its biggest strength. The following statements are true about 8Rack:
You can use 8Rack to go infinite on MTGO.
You can use 8Rack to blow up your LGS tourneys until they catch on, then you hit them with something else.
I never promised anything beyond that. If you think you have a build that can go beyond that and still be called 8Rack then prove it. Until that happens keep the crap out of this thread. Having 6 rack minimum to any list is a good start.
[/quote]
The second example is how I view the deck.
It is somehow a Dredge in Modern to a lesser extent.
Hopefully it can go beyond an LGS from time to time.
Well, there is an extent to which we need to observe some standards around the deck. It's obviously not okay to go into the Junk thread in Established and say "don't play so much white; just splash Red or only use Lingering Souls." Because even though that might help the deck win more, that's no longer Junk. That's BG Rock, BG Souls, or Jund. Similarly, just because a deck uses The Rack, that does not necessarily mean it should be discussed here. It would just as obviously be problematic if we discussed RUG Twin, UR Twin, WR Twin, BWR Twin, and Grixis Twin in the UR Twin thread in Proven, even if there are overlapping cards between those decks.
It isn't hard to figure out where the line is. If it's a discard control deck, it can definitely go here. If it's a rack-based other deck, just use common sense. I shouldn't need to post a guide for how to do this; it works just fine in every other thread.
See here is where we diverge. While a big tourney top 8 finish would be cool for a bit, it would ultimately serve to unravel the whole strategy. I have said it so many times, the deck CANNOT ever become popular! It's far too easily hated out and any popularity leads to myriad sideboard scenarios that shut the deck down. This is a deck meta assassin, nothing more nothing less. Its anonymity is its biggest strength. The following statements are true about 8Rack:
You can use 8Rack to go infinite on MTGO.
You can use 8Rack to blow up your LGS tourneys until they catch on, then you hit them with something else.
I never promised anything beyond that. If you think you have a build that can go beyond that and still be called 8Rack then prove it. Until that happens keep the crap out of this thread. Having 6 rack minimum to any list is a good start.
I think it has more potential than that honestly. Mindcrank infinite combo's can spike a daily as well, but we can devastate that deck with simplicity.
If we already assume the deck cannot go further than that, thats unfortunate.
Spirits
By that logic, we can discuss all BGx decks here, and the monoblack Infect deck...
This is where the problem lies! It ISN'T hard to figure out where the line is, yet the last 10 pages are filled with people that have no idea where it is all the same. I do not know why this thread attract these types of people, but since it obviously does, we obviously need special "mod approved" rules for posting in this thread.
So far we have:
1) Deck must contain a minimum of 6 Racks
2) Deck must have a good reason to radically depart from certain core cards (Lili, bridge, ???)
Its a really good start. Can we start the process of infracting decks that do not meet these requirements?
You guys are ridiculous. I already said it has to have 6-8 racks. Is this really that difficult? It's like moderating a kindergarten classroom.
-Do not try and make this an inefficient, goyfless rock deck
-Do not try to make this an inefficient, dredgeless Loam deck
-Do not try and make this an inefficient, artifactless UB Tezz deck
I will not post any specific lists so as to not "single people out", but I will damn sure put up a bunch of warning signs so folks can avoid these awful traps. Is that allowed?
I don't know why you're shocked; rogue decks that blindside people then disappear for awhile are a long-running thing in Magic. I think there's a chance we could go beyond that, at least some day (perhaps with new cards), but it's probably more likely Memory is right. If cards like Obstinate Baloth, Chalice of the Void, and Leyline are in every other sideboard partly for us, we're going to have a hard time. Possibly we could adjust our lists a fair bit to accommodate, but that might just hurt our strategy too much for us to be truly successful.
I don't think you're going to get people infracted for posting their own take on the deck.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
If someone comes in here and posts a 3 Rack list that's UBW or something similar and wins with Tezzeret's ult, I'm going to verbally warn them that their deck needs to be discussed in a different thread. Much how I would do the same if someone brought a Jund deck into Junk. If they keep posting, warnings and infractions will follow.
But by a similar token, if some dedicated 8Rack champion responds to that guy and says "gtfo kid; enjoy the infraction", then they are going to get infracted themselves (and you can rest assured that it will be an infraction and not a warning).
There were a couple that everybody refers to and we all know them very well, but it wasn't the 8Rack deck. It was (and still is) called Mono-black Control and they played Bob and Smallpox. I don't want to bring back the old discussions where Bob should be in this deck, because (not without extensive testing) it was decided he's not (I even remember that at some point the deck was supposed to be creatureless, making all of the opponent's removal dead weight/draws). Smallpox was one of the cards included in the original 8Rack deck, you can see it in the (now pretty old) primer video. It, too, was dropped from the deck a long time before those people brought it to the large paper events.
Now, before you go on a "well they have better results with that version than with anything you got" rampage, I want to point out that I feel (and I believe Memory does as well, feel free to correct me on that one) that they would've made better results with the "core" or "stock" list that this thread has provided (the only real change since then has been the inclusion of Pack Rat). The people who played Mono-black Control (as they later admitted) had not even heard of the name "8Rack" or ever visited (or generally known) about this thread.
So, what I'm trying to say is that, in a sense, 8Rack hasn't been represented in big events by players who would do it justice.
I mean, if you are talking about your general MTG "enthusiast" who shows up at an event with a brew or, in this case, 8Rack... that's not fair. Tons of people show up to events with UWR Control, Pod, Twin, etc., but only the best players make it to day 2 / top 16 / top 8.
Hell, I bet even I could do better than the MBC lists, considering the only time I haven't made top 4 was a 2-1-2 Pod,Tron,Hatebears,Affinity,Tron before Pack Rats.
The core list can day 2, it hasn't because people haven't taken it to events in a grand scale.
As for the thread, "it's a black discard deck so it's 8rack" is bull, if rack effects aren't your primary wincon you should go to the Mono Black Control thread, let them deal with your crazy splashes for a week and then tell us we're the unreasonable ones.
6 Rack effects MINIMUM
6 Targeted discard MINIMUM
6 Open discard MINIMUM
6 Continuous discard MINIMUM
I won't even read posts with decklists that don't contain that, because to tell the truth, I haven't made over $500 on store credit these past months listening to people other than MemoryLapse and destroyermaker
Looks like people are trying to brew another discard deck.
MemoryLapse quoted:
[/quote]
See here is where we diverge. While a big tourney top 8 finish would be cool for a bit, it would ultimately serve to unravel the whole strategy. I have said it so many times, the deck CANNOT ever become popular! It's far too easily hated out and any popularity leads to myriad sideboard scenarios that shut the deck down. This is a deck meta assassin, nothing more nothing less. Its anonymity is its biggest strength. The following statements are true about 8Rack:
You can use 8Rack to go infinite on MTGO.
You can use 8Rack to blow up your LGS tourneys until they catch on, then you hit them with something else.
I never promised anything beyond that. If you think you have a build that can go beyond that and still be called 8Rack then prove it. Until that happens keep the crap out of this thread. Having 6 rack minimum to any list is a good start.
[/quote]
The second example is how I view the deck.
It is somehow a Dredge in Modern to a lesser extent.
Hopefully it can go beyond an LGS from time to time.