MTG Salvation

I might imagine that Kiki pod has the chance to be a worse matchup than Melira pod mostly from Zealous Conscripts being able to do nasty things to any board state.

Thanks destroyer/sled for the input. That was the sense I was getting from reading the thread, but it's nice to get confirmation from two longtime players.

From what I know of the metagame and other decks I test and play, it's fine to punt a matchup like RG Tron. We should figure out what cards can go in the board to make it more winnable, but honestly it's not that big of a deal if we bat 30/70 against it. The deck isn't widely played and has enough horrible matchups of its own that we can just gamble on not facing it in larger events, especially if we can make it through earlier rounds where there is more deck variance.

Having a bad Melira Pod and BGx Midrange matchup, however, is absolutely not okay. Those decks make up about 25% of the format in both MTGO and paper venues. They are also going to appear at all levels of an event, whether in the opening rounds before people scrub out, the top tables of a day 1 GP, or the T8 of an LCS weekend Modern tournament. It'd be like playing a Theros Standard tournament and having both a bad Mono U Devotion and Mono B Devotion matchup; you can't expect to excel in major events if those are your problem matchups. Now, if those matchups are more the 45/55 kind of bad, then that's more operable. Sideboard tweaks can help those kinds of matchups. But if they are the 30-40/70-60 kind of bad, that's when the maindeck needs tweaking too, because you can't rely on your sideboard alone to carry you 2-1 in those matches.

So...what helps those matchups? The most obvious card is the previously mentioned Path to Exile. It causes a lot of issues for both decks, and neither of them can do much with the extra land. Sure, Melira Pod can take advantage of that +1 mana (they'd rather have the creatures though), but BG Midrange decks really can't. They just don't have any rampable threats in their good-stuff gameplan, and those low-cost, high-value critters do not like eating a Path. Path is also just a great catchall in the Affinity matchup, which although not as bad as many think, still would be benefited by some added ammunition.

Path is a reactive answer to those matchups. It's also an easy splash that would absolutely not be too painful. Now let's think of a proactive one.

Pack Rat is definitely a step in the right direction. It's grindy, it synergizes well with Bridge, it's in our main color, and it is good in lots of matchups, not just the bad ones it is seeking to improve. The obvious Pack Rat 5-8 is Bitterblossom, a card that I know was tested here and I know was found to be strong for a while. If the damn search feature worked (yup, Curse knows and is looking into it...) then I would go back and look at the previous discussions on it. But because I cannot, I'm bringing it back up for reconsideration, even if it's more of answer to BG Midrange than to Pod.

What other thoughts do people have on these particular matchups?

It's not even 30/70, though, it really is about 10/90, maybe even worse. Every time I see it, part of me is tempted to just concede cause I know what a waste of time it is almost every time. I say this having played Rat against it I think just once, but I doubt it makes much of a difference either way.

I should say I'm still in the testing phase with Rat, so it could move the BGx and Pod matchups from bad to 50/50, or at least closer toward it (again, I'm having fine matches against BGx lately). I'm currently testing two main and one side, which doesn't help matters. Memory's input would be very welcome, here. Comparing Standard meta to Modern meta is silly; the latter is far more diverse.

You talk about Path like we can just add it to the current list and it's better for it; we'd have to take out removal or Rat for it. With that in mind, Path would offer a very minor edge over current removal in the BGx and Affinity matchups; against Pod I could see it being just okay or good.

I doubt we should even use 4 Rats (mainboard), let alone 5-8. Again, we'd have to cut removal, which makes me quite uncomfortable. Memory likes Bitterblossom a lot but prefers Rat; I loved and hated Bitterblossom because it worked through Bridge and sometime won the game on its own, but also there's its inconsistency and how terrible it is against Affinity, Burn, and often URx decks.

Waste Not is good against Pod and BGx; maybe we should use those somewhere.

Sirius, read all of what I wrote. Scapeshift's strength is despite how oppressive we are, it can still win out of nowhere sometimes on a topdecked Scapeshift (harder or imposssible post-board). And Baloth is a very real threat, with little luck required for it to be good.

UW Tron is fine, and also extremely rare...

For the games we have a tough time with there are answers. Against pod grafdigger's cage shuts down pod and persist. Other grave hate like leyline of the void or rest in peace does too. Stony Silence cancels podding. The issue is how much removal for all those things they carry around. Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Harmonic Sliver, the cat you sac to destroy artifacts, and they pod/e witness/reveillark them all back. Their creatures offer terrific value with persist or that dang Voice of Resurgence. You really need something like Supreme Verdict or terminus, neither of which 8rack can support. Other stuff like ghostly prison or damping matrix might be options, but how much do you water down the deck? How do other decks beat pod?

For RG tron it has to be a race. The end game inevitability is too oppressive in tron's favor, so you have to start punishing them early and often, which isn't easy for 8rack either because the biggest sticks, rats, take 3 turns to really get going and are still vulnerable to pyroclasm until turn 4. If you aren't dealing damage by then you're in trouble because here comes wurmcoil or O stone. What sort of conversion package could 8rack offer that accelerates the game for us? I think even having rats + bitterblossom might be too slow, and that sets making rats back a turn to get BB out. Who beats tron? Burn, infect, super aggro. We aren't any of that.

I'm finding that 2x Waste Not seem about the perfect amount to me. I get them often enough early to get advantage, and don't draw them often late, and by then it can be discard to rats or Lili. I think WN is a good card. Another card I'm loving is Night of Souls' Betrayal. This is an absolute hoser against most aggro decks, and even against decks with bigger dudes it tempers damage so I can stabilize. Again, just 2 of. And I know it's a nonbo with rats unless you get rats out first, but it is normally a surprise for the opponent and seems to always be effective. I wanted to run curse of death's hold but the casting cost is too high and just that one turn is often the difference.

@doctoor: I never thought about Smallpox as an out vs Merfolk. Using it to blow up your own land to remove Spreading Seas seems like a good play. Good call.

2x Waste Not has been mostly very good to me. If we use it, I believe 2 is the right number. It's possible we should jam 3-4 somewhere amongst the 75 for Tron and maybe other decks (I've crushed Tron before with a turn 2 Waste Not).

I'd say 2 or 3 waste not for sure. That explosiveness in a deck so built to take advantage of it CAN'T get skipped. The idea that every card needs to do something when it comes into play is totally false. Keranos says hello. With smallpoxing with a waste not in play is also amazing.

I've never felt that Cage was enough for Pod. It stalls them for as long as it takes for them to draw any one of their many, many artifact/enchantment removals. Something that Torpor Orb helps shut down about half of them. So hard to fit so many of these answers into the sideboard, which is already full of 3-4-ofs like cage, Leyline (white, sometimes black too), darkblast, extractions/extirpates, pithing needle, and others.

Side note. There are a lot of decks that extractions are the answer to for this deck that it seems better as a MB card than a SB.

Quote from DOLZero »

@doctoor: I never thought about Smallpox as an out vs Merfolk. Using it to blow up your own land to remove Spreading Seas seems like a good play. Good call.

*****. Why have I never thought of that? There's 2 Merfolk in my play group darnnit

Right now I don't really find the black leyline all that useful, and a no-bo with surgical/extirpate.


Cage is better than torpor orb, but I'd bring in both I think. Cage shuts down pod, which means that only 3-5 cards can topdecked to save them (quasili/abrupt decay), while shutting down all the ways to use a 1-drop to find said 2 drop. It shuts down the best card in their deck and the cords. Torpor orb takes care of 31 cards in their deck, except that they can still use pridemage off a 1 drop to kill it and continue on their way winning.

I honestly don't see how Grafdigger's cage is being used in the sideboard for Pod. I get that it shuts down a huge portion of their deck, but they can remove it so easily and I'd bet there isn't a single pod deck that doesn't side in artifact hate postboard. I think what needs to happen for the pod matches is destroying the pods. Nature's claim for green splashes, Dinsenchant for white, or Smash to Smithereens for a red splash. I guess Repeal for blue. hurkyl's recall would serve double duty in afinitty match ups.I honestly don't know how much black has on it's own.

Edit: I'm not saying those are the best options each colour has, just mentioning a few. I'm currently testing Nature's Claim, but I'm not huge on gain 4 life. Maybe something like Sundering Growth which is iffy, but could populate Pack Rats, or Naturalize which has no downside, or Krosan Grip which is expensive, but more useful against Tron (for hitting egg, and Maps).

When I've sided cage in against pod they switch to an aggro beatdown plan, which we're soft to but can hold off for a while, or they side in tons of artifact hate and blow away Cage/Torpor Orb and then use them to remove Rack/Ensnaring Bridge to take down our clock/protection. The problem with pod is it's so toolboxy that no one thing you'll do with shut it down for long. I really think the sideboard needs artifact hate, and some measure of surgicals to remove their flexibility. After that's done you can stand a chance with Pack rat/Liliana/Ensnaring Bridge.

Quote from dark494 »

I've never felt that Cage was enough for Pod. It stalls them for as long as it takes for them to draw any one of their many, many artifact/enchantment removals. Something that Torpor Orb helps shut down about half of them. So hard to fit so many of these answers into the sideboard, which is already full of 3-4-ofs like cage, Leyline (white, sometimes black too), darkblast, extractions/extirpates, pithing needle, and others.

Side note. There are a lot of decks that extractions are the answer to for this deck that it seems better as a MB card than a SB.

I suppose that's why I've found it less effective lately; they run more Abrupt Decay now I think?

The problem with Orb is they can tutor for Pridemage and blow it up. Although they only run one (sometimes another sb). Also, letting them Pod and Chord freely (except for ETB stuff) makes me very nervous. Still, I'd like to test it; maybe Crime + Orb is better than Cage and no Crime overall. How effective was Orb before for people when it used to be run?

Quote from BatHickey »

Right now I don't really find the black leyline all that useful, and a no-bo with surgical/extirpate.


Cage is better than torpor orb, but I'd bring in both I think. Cage shuts down pod, which means that only 3-5 cards can topdecked to save them (quasili/abrupt decay), while shutting down all the ways to use a 1-drop to find said 2 drop. It shuts down the best card in their deck and the cords. Torpor orb takes care of 31 cards in their deck, except that they can still use pridemage off a 1 drop to kill it and continue on their way winning.

Void is disgusting against Storm, but that's about it. (There's Living End, too, but that's rare) It has other applications but I don't think they're worth siding it in for.

Quote from Phone »

I honestly don't see how Grafdigger's cage is being used in the sideboard for Pod. I get that it shuts down a huge portion of their deck, but they can remove it so easily and I'd bet there isn't a single pod deck that doesn't side in artifact hate postboard. I think what needs to happen for the pod matches is destroying the pods. Nature's claim for green splashes, Dinsenchant for white, or Smash to Smithereens for a red splash. I guess Repeal for blue. hurkyl's recall would serve double duty in afinitty match ups.I honestly don't know how much black has on it's own.

Edit: I'm not saying those are the best options each colour has, just mentioning a few. I'm currently testing Nature's Claim, but I'm not huge on gain 4 life. Maybe something like Sundering Growth which is iffy, but could populate Pack Rats, or Naturalize which has no downside, or Krosan Grip which is expensive, but more useful against Tron (for hitting egg, and Maps).

When I've sided cage in against pod they switch to an aggro beatdown plan, which we're soft to but can hold off for a while, or they side in tons of artifact hate and blow away Cage/Torpor Orb and then use them to remove Rack/Ensnaring Bridge to take down our clock/protection. The problem with pod is it's so toolboxy that no one thing you'll do with shut it down for long. I really think the sideboard needs artifact hate, and some measure of surgicals to remove their flexibility. After that's done you can stand a chance with Pack rat/Liliana/Ensnaring Bridge.

Black has Pithing Needle and that's about it.

Cage + Bridge is absurd against them, to the point it makes Pod look like a bad deck. The problem is getting both can be difficult, and also keeping them in play long enough to win.

Well, that's what I mean. By destroying Pod them down you can have more time to find Bridge, limit their options to find Pridemages. I still feel like Surgicals could do an alright Cage impression in the sense that you can respond to the Persist trigger and strip out all their Finks/Redcaps, etc. I do agree that Cage would hold off a greater number of things, but I still think it's too susceptible to being destroyed. When you say it's hard to get both, I would think it would be even tougher to get both, and then redundant copies to have them stick.

How do you feel about Damnation in this deck? I added some sideboard a while ago but haven't had the chance to use them when I've had them in. I feel like it could also help against some matchups as a psuedo-Bridge 5-6. Mostly against Midrange decks that seem to pack removal for Bridge and also efficient beaters like Goyf, etc.

Let me be a bit more informational about what I meant with Pod. There's no doubt that cage shuts down Pod, which is their swiss army knife of tutoring most of their answers.

Pod has lots of artifact removal answers, though almost all of them are 1-2-ofs, but they're varied and they all have them in some combination MB and SB: Qasali Pridemage, Abrupt Decay, Acidic Slime, Creeping Corrosion, Kataki, War's Wage, Harmonic Sliver, Maelstrom Pulse, Reclamation Sage. These are all cards that some variation of Pod will run. Add onto the fact that they have cards to replay them in Eternal Witness, Restoration Angel, Reveillark , Entomber Exarch. Some of them advocate running Spike Feeder for winning without caring about cage or torpor orb. That doesn't seem well accepted so it's not a big deal.

It's interesting going through their thread and seeing just what they're thinking. They're (recently) talking about how to deal with 8rack, so interpret that how you like. Their plan against 8rack is to board in more of the removal cards I listed above, as well as annoying cards like Sigarda, Host of Herons (anti-liliana and smallpox), Linvala, Keeper of Silence (anti-pack rat, but less accepted), Lingering Souls (swings under bridge) and Obstinate Baloth, as well as more disruption with Exarch and Sin Collector in addition to the MB thoughtseizes.

Tron happens to be their worst MU as well, and it's weird that it's ours as well. A big part of their plan against tron is hand disruption; playing thoughtseize and replaying thoughtseize-like effects (by replaying Exarch looks like). They're also talking about Stain the Mind against them to just be rid of O.stones and Karn and maybe Emrakul, similar to our plan by getting them to pitch it and extracting them away. Path for wurmcoil, maelstrom pulse for everything else, some artifact removal, and Vampire Hexmage for blowing up Karn. They're even trying to plan on actively dealing with Emrakul when it hits the board, like they expect it to. Pithing needle is still good against tron, though they prefer Phyrexian Revoker for synergy.

That tron matchup shouldn't be that terrible for 8rack. It seems like it just needs more extractions to cripple their deck and probably Path to deal with wurmcoil effectively, or other forms of removal. Their only solution after that is to hard cast Emrakul which should take them longer to get out than winning through rack effects.

I'm flattered they consider us a problem. Heh. Thanks for checking in. I'm quite interested in any other relevant discussion on that front going forward.

It should be that terrible. The deck is crazy redundant, which we hate, and it removes all of our permanents, which we hate. I've seen them win through horrible hands + discard + Extraction; it's absurd. Playing against it feels like the deck was custom made to beat us. Some (most?) lists also run Ulamog (which we hate). Karn ultimate is a real thing, too (I've never seen them use it but that's because they haven't had to). I agree Path would be nice, though. Maybe not nice enough, but nice.

There are a ton of people playing discard/racks online it seems today. 3 Mirrors (in archetype) in a row, even someone running a Grixis build like mine.

They have mostly come down to who gets the most racks down first, though I did burn one guy out with Lightning Bolts and Keranos.

I've had a ton of issue with Tron as well. I've beaten it with Smallpox, but most of the time its simply too fast for me to handle at this point.

I'd hardly say that. Stoney Silence is huge here. From what I've read on their thread it's a real tough card for them. And white would provide more options as far as splashes go, IMO.