It may take a while before I complete the deck so the testing results would take time.
I just thought of Leechridden Swamp since most of the time I see the result of a match down the wire and both players are on topdeck mode. I feel the card doesn't hurt the deck that much if it replaces a Dakmor Salvage when played. Unlike Bump in the Night, which most likely would fight for a slot for a discard or removal piece. Not to mention the red splash if Flashback is used. With regards to tying 2 lands to use it, I often see that there are 3 lands in play in the mid to late game where most of the time only 1 mana is spent so I guess there is enough room for 2 to spend.
It also helps you finish the match faster since this deck goes down the wire most of the time and I've seen lots of comment in the lines of: "I could have won had he taken his next turn", "My opponent was down to one life and one more turn I would have won", "He got lucky and topdecked a xxx, another turn and he is dead".
Still, this is just theory and will update the thread if it is worth it once the deck is complete.
To one of the posters who said they cut Raven's crime, I just want to tell you how my game 1 and 2 went against merfolk tonight at FNM. Keep a hand with a little bit of action, a pack rat, 4 lands and Raven's crime. Proceed to raven's crime every turn: t1 do it once; t2 do it twice; t3 do it once, and drop pack rat; t4+ beat with pack rats which he was helpless to deal with. Game 2: keep a hand with 6 lands and a Raven's Crime, t1 Crime once, t2 crime twice, t3 topdeck pack rat again, crime 3 times, t4 beatdown with pack rat. I was extremely surprised by how easily Raven's crime can dump a player's hand. Obviously you want to lead off on an IOK/Thoughtseize to stall them, but I found Raven's crime still does some serious heavy lifting.
I will mention that my comment is not specific to any variant. Monoblack uses raven's crime crazy well, as does Loam. I assume other plashes would too.
Also, managed to go 2-2 with my deck tonight. Currently half of it's in the mail and so it's nowhere near done. I always managed to win on the back of pack rat or worm harvest because, both the Rack and Shrieking affliction are on their way.... That was really awkward, thinking I had added them and then realize I was just discarding/Poxing without a serious win-con. Awkward. Oh, well. Hopefully they'll be here next week and I'll be able to do better.
Edit: Also, as far as topdecks go, take funeral charm. I don't think there's any reason to use piracy charm, even if you're already splashing blue for some reason. I think Isonchron + Funeral Charm/Piracy charm is another deck. I'd love to see it, but it honestly sounds like a Blue combo deck running mad cantrips to hit the combo pieces early and splashes for thoughtseize/iok/shrieking affliction. It could be fun, but I'm not sure how that would work out. Like a tezzeret variant or something.
Opening this up again. Please remember to follow the site rules when posting here. Amongst other things, that means:
1. No flaming/trolling. Disagree constructively and with good arguments.
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3. Just be respectful.
In every other thread in the Modern forums, users are able to discuss a wide variety of builds, criticize and develop ideas, and generally get along. That's as true in proven archetypes like Melira Pod and Affinity, up and coming decks like Deadguy Ale and Nykthos Green, and decks still trying to sneak on the competitive scene like Green Sun's Zenith or Junk Haakon Loam. There is absolutely no reason that shouldn't be true here.
Please message me if you have concerns
Please note, we are opening this up on a trial basis. If the thread derails into a flame war again, it will be immediately closed down. ~Lantern
I don't know if anyone is following the site mtgstocks.com but The Rack and Blackmail have been seen dramatic price increases due to the popularity of this deck. Blackbordered Racks and blackmails each hit their all time high price in the last week.
Just a reminder that a lot of people love this deck and want to see it go places
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12/1/2004: Yes, you're allowed to have a deck consisting of sixty Relentless Rats and nothing else.
So Mogis is in the middle of a guitar solo, and then Phenax jumps in with
"I like big butts and I cannot lie..."
Decks:
BFZ Standard
Nothing yet Modern RBWMardu BurnWBR Legacy UUUPTSD NoughtUUU EDH WUDaxos VoltronUW UBRJeleva - Oops all your spellsRBU UBUVela, the Ninja Clad (retired)UBU
I've modded my own Bw list a bit. The main deck isn't any better, though path to exile fixes some problematic creature issues, but the sideboard becomes a lot more versatile. I've added Timely Reinforcements for the games that are races and it's been solid. I also have dropped to 6 rack effects and mainboard 2 extirpate. Until yesterday this deck was just killing. Yesterday I was getting a lot of unbalanced land draws in both directions for a mediocre run of games.
So the big differences in my deck v. stock list is 4 path, 2 extirpate, 2 rats, 2 waste not, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal (this card has been an all star) main deck. Sideboard of 2 torpor orb, 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2 stony silence, 2 timely reinforcements, 3 leyline of sanctity, 2 grafdigger cage, 2 disenchant.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I've been recently trying to make a black discard deck and turned to 8Rack. I have a few questions regarding the deck as a whole:
- Aren't these lists playing too many win conditions? My reasoning here is simply if the main objective of the deck is to significantly disrupt and hinder the opponents game plan to the point where there is nothing they can do, why does the deck go out of it's way to incorporate so many cards that don't actively contribute to this game plan? By my cont at least half of the non-land cards in these decks are win conditions.
- How come these decks don't play more land disruption? A very effective way of dealing with topdecks is to make sure that the opponent is incapable of casting whatever he topdecks into and thus forming a Legacy-like disruption bridge. Smallpox seems obvious, but cards like Fulminator Mage, Rain of Tears or even Ghost Quarter (basic lands aren't exactly a thing in Modern) and Tectonic Edge might also fit the bill, perhaps even splashing red for cheaper LD effects?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I've been recently trying to make a black discard deck and turned to 8Rack. I have a few questions regarding the deck as a whole:
- Aren't these lists playing too many win conditions? My reasoning here is simply if the main objective of the deck is to significantly disrupt and hinder the opponents game plan to the point where there is nothing they can do, why does the deck go out of it's way to incorporate so many cards that don't actively contribute to this game plan? By my cont at least half of the non-land cards in these decks are win conditions.
- How come these decks don't play more land disruption? A very effective way of dealing with topdecks is to make sure that the opponent is incapable of casting whatever he topdecks into and thus forming a Legacy-like disruption bridge. Smallpox seems obvious, but cards like Fulminator Mage, Rain of Tears or even Ghost Quarter (basic lands aren't exactly a thing in Modern) and Tectonic Edge might also fit the bill, perhaps even splashing red for cheaper LD effects?
I agree with too many racks, at least for the moment. Part of the reason land disruption isn't prevalent is the desire to keep casting costs to a bare minimum tethered with the theory that you pull out all the important stuff they would cast anyway. By the time they are in top deck mode you should have control, probably a bridge or liliana down, and it doesn't matter what they draw. There are plenty of folks who do run smallpox, and I've tinkered with it as well. If you like it go for it, this deck can be built in a variety of ways depending on play style. Part of the reason some people don't use smallpox is because this deck runs just fine on 3 lands, pitching extras to raven's crime. So you have to be smart about using pox. Alternatively some people do run ghost quarter, and many don't for the same reasons mentioned about pox. I like rain of tears, but 3cc is too much for that card for some people. Another option would be shadow of doubt and cast it when someone tries to use a fetchland. All viable cards.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
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What about Contaminated Ground and/or Evil Presence? They aren't exactly LD spells but they do do a good job of answering manlands, limiting the opponent's topdeck effectiveness (they can play whatever they draw as long as it is a mono black or colourless card) and dealing with Tron lands up to a point (the targeted land will provide only B but will still help pump the other parts of the cycle since it checks names and nothing else). Both are also cheaper mana-wise then the other black LD options.
Regarding win conditions, excluding a splash for Tarmogoyf (which I'm not against but am currently exploring possible finishers in mono black), how do Nantuko Shade or Tombstalker sound? While we are at it, delve cards should be carefully considered for this deck since they could effortlessly be played at bargain prices. Pack Rat also sounds good (though it's slower then the other two it can be very hard to kill). Most if not all of these cards conflict with Ensnaring Bridge though, so does this mean that wins via combat damage are off the table or that the bridge should be relegated to the sideboard (if it is to be played at all)?
I'm not sure if playing 8 rack effects is justifiable, but playing them in some number does sound reasonable.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Pack Rat has the following things going for him in the typical 8-Rack build:
-It turns dead top-decks into potential win-cons.
-It gives you an out to bullets like Leyline of Sanctity.
-It gives you another way to hold off aggro besides Ensnaring Bridge.
Note that it can attack through an Ensnaring Bridge, becoming more effective with each Mutavault you control. The icing on the cake is that it's also difficult to spot remove, which gives you a hearty way to both directly win and survive more often.
Splashes (any changes, really) should be done from the standpoint of shoring up where the deck lacks, not adding more of what it already does well. What is this a dog against? In what situations does the package fall flat?
You have to consider the main point is to not have creatures, which makes all your opponent's removal useless, so you can be more selective with your disruption. Often I throw rats out just to draw removal and get a card out of their hand, not because I'm going to beat them down. First wincon, racks. Alt wincon, rats. And rats are great because they eat up opponents resources while using your dead cards. Yep, they nonbo with bridge, but if bridge is down all you have to worry about is burn, so who cares anyway? I'm not trying to throw and grow rats, I'm disrupting their hand and putting out rats later to shore up the game. It's a different mindset to win with racks. I don't really want tombstalker because it only takes one kill card to trade, rats often take several removals and often take other creatures along with them. That may not sound like card advantage because you discard to make a rat, but I'd be discarding something useless, which makes every draw valuable for me. Let the opponent worry about board state, I'm just trying to focus on one or two tasks and killing them a little bit every turn. Similarly I don't get bummed out when something I play gets countered, because it essentially turns into a discard spell which is what I'm trying to do anyway. Well, sometimes I get bummed like when I really could use bridge down.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
The version that I've been working on most diligently is a Black/blue Rack deck with varied win conditions, soft locks, and recursive abilities. Rather than subscribe to a doctrine of heavy redundancy, there are a lot of different cards in the 75 - it's not a deck of 4-ofs. Since, I can't count on seeing any given spell in the course of a game, the cards drawn must have adaptable applications (i.e. engineered explosives and spellskite).
Bathickey wrote recently about the principles of diminishing returns on the subject of discard. Indeed, your first Inquisition of Kozilek is your best one. The 2nd and 3rd ones cast follow a diminishing curve of effectiveness. Once an opponent has ramped up their full mana curve, these discard cards become useless, since your opponent is casting cards drawn off the top of their deck. The foundation of a classic 8 rack shell compensates for this fundamental failing by running a high number of Rack effects. The Racks are the sharpened sticks at the bottom of the pit, but they also have little game impact when they are brought into play. I have asked this before: From a skill build standpoint, why the number 8? Successful rack decks have existed long before shrieking affliction was ever printed.
My Mission over the past year: Assemble the best discard package, complement it with the right number of rack effects, and add some board control, draw engines, and alternate win conditions to produce a deck that is slower, but a little more balanced than mono-black rack:
Dark Confidant. This guys is an auto-include. When you look at him 'on paper', he doesn't seem to be a fit. But, hey, we used to say that about Pack Rat. He has been hotly contested since the beginning, and I'm baffled as to why more people don't use him. Statistically, more large tournament top-showing Rack decks have achieved With Dark Confidant than Without. He can hasten your demise, but he can also turbo boost you towards a win that you never would have achieved without him on the board.
Pack Rat. A turn 2 Pack Rat can easily turn into a GG a few turns later. Even as a nonbo, He can shore up behind an ensnaring bridge, and put use to the cards that would have been discarded to a Liliana of the Veil.
Spellskite. He blocks. He anti-TWINS. He steals effects from Infect and Bogle. He shields you from Lightning Bolts. He protects your ensnaring bridge. Lastly, with a blue mana base, he activates with no pain to you.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Again, you can search my posts to see more of what I've written about my favorite planeswalker (hit the blue arrow beside my name -- you'll see that I'm posting a fair amount on Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas Control Decks FORUM in the Experimental/Development page of MTGsalvation). All three of his abilities are titanic. The life gaining can be critical, and one cool trick in this deck is to turn your ensnaring bridge into a creature, then sac it to Liliana of the Veil. Do this after you have assembled a rat army, and then break the dam!
Raven's Crime. 4-of, required. Every time I have tried to drop the count on this spell, I suffer for my folly. Four!
Consult the Necrosages. This is superior to Wrench Mind as a single. Esper Charm is pretty hot these days in Bant decks, and this swiss army knife of draw/discard performs the same primary functions. The sorcery speed drawback is minimal as the rest of the deck is mostly sorcery speed.
3-1'd another daily. Standings screenshot; in-game screenshot. Lost to Pod; beat UWR, Affinity, Merfolk. Tried 4 Rats again; didn't really like it so I'm going back down to 3.
Murderous Cut seems like it could be golden here. It's not exactly a one mana kill all spell but it's pretty darn close. Will try them alongside Dismember. With it the removal package, broadly speaking, would look something like this:
I think it looks good on paper, however I have to ask about people's experiences with Dismember in this deck. The card seems like a natural fit in this type of deck since it's cheap and doesn't cost you a turn of forcing your opponent to discard (though I would take Snuff Out over it in a heartbeat). Murderous Cut seems attractive for similar reasons.
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Dismember is great, it hits all the important dudes that bother us except wurmcoil. On the "turn land into swamp", I think maybe those are sideboard cards at best. I just don't see as much value from them.
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I'll bite, I've tried the contaminated ground/ evil presence thing after playing a lot of merfolk and really feeling the power of spreading seas. seemed like it would be good in a rack-ish type shell with vial and pack rat and bob and auger of skulls (skulls can be vialed in on an upkeep and act like a hymn to tourach)
The problem is that turning something into an island is in general more powerful than turning it into a swamp (maybe this changes depending on the meta). Seas cantrips which is really what makes it so much better, and the syngergy now with merfolk decks and devotion.
The other problem is that locking a person out of a color is much harder to make actually crippling compared to 'normal' ld, so you also have to run a lot of the effect before you can reliably pull it off while your opponent tries to outrace it. If you think about it, they run around 24 effects (and fetches), vs. your 4/8/12 do nothing spells that you have to draw more of while racing them for the strat to be effective. They do turn off manlands, so a deck trying to win with colonnade is a pretty good target for a contaminated ground in the SB, but other than that...eh.
In my BG build I like smallpox a lot, which is an LD effect, and I use ghost quarter too--but they really work differently than ground and presence. ghost quarter mostly doesn't really feel like its taking up a spell slot too, which is nice, so I can run 8 effects for the price of 4.
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On this deck running too many win-cons, I think the classic build just runs too many redundant cards, 8 is the general agreed upon number for hitting an effect at a mana cost most consistently before running into serious diminishing returns. You can't run 16 discard effects that all are just variations on a theme and don't effect the board and rely soly on liliana and bridge to 'save you'.
Those turn to swamp enchantments would work out well if you went with a bit of a black devotion build. Run contaminated ground, use underworld connections for card draw, shrieking affliction for rack stuff, pack rats, liliana, and use gray merchant of asphodel for a burn style finisher/life gain.
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@BatHickey: have you tried Elixir of Immortality in the LoamRack build? I was thinking of having it in there as a 1-3 of as a way to recycle the graveyard and a bit of a buffer for aggro/burn matchups. This deck likes to go long, but I still have trouble with topdecks and if Loam can only recur lands then burning through our removal too fast has left me vulnerable to late game topdecks, when you know you don't have much removal left in the deck.
Also testing 2 damnation in the sideboard. Just some mass removal to help with Affinity, Pod, and Tron which I consider to be the deck's hardest matchups.
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I'll bite, I've tried the contaminated ground/ evil presence thing after playing a lot of merfolk and really feeling the power of spreading seas. seemed like it would be good in a rack-ish type shell with vial and pack rat and bob and auger of skulls (skulls can be vialed in on an upkeep and act like a hymn to tourach)
The problem is that turning something into an island is in general more powerful than turning it into a swamp (maybe this changes depending on the meta). Seas cantrips which is really what makes it so much better, and the syngergy now with merfolk decks and devotion.
The other problem is that locking a person out of a color is much harder to make actually crippling compared to 'normal' ld, so you also have to run a lot of the effect before you can reliably pull it off while your opponent tries to outrace it. If you think about it, they run around 24 effects (and fetches), vs. your 4/8/12 do nothing spells that you have to draw more of while racing them for the strat to be effective. They do turn off manlands, so a deck trying to win with colonnade is a pretty good target for a contaminated ground in the SB, but other than that...eh.
In my BG build I like smallpox a lot, which is an LD effect, and I use ghost quarter too--but they really work differently than ground and presence. ghost quarter mostly doesn't really feel like its taking up a spell slot too, which is nice, so I can run 8 effects for the price of 4.
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On this deck running too many win-cons, I think the classic build just runs too many redundant cards, 8 is the general agreed upon number for hitting an effect at a mana cost most consistently before running into serious diminishing returns. You can't run 16 discard effects that all are just variations on a theme and don't effect the board and rely soly on liliana and bridge to 'save you'.
Much obliged for this feedback. Thinking about it I've come to a similar conclusion that you can't include enough of these effects in the maindeck to be relevant without seriously impacting the effectiveness of the discard package. Smallpox aside, I couldn't incorporate more then 3 "swamp morphs" into the deck so I'm not sure how much of an impact just those three cards would make. It's still something I will try at some point, but for my first build I think something more mainstream is in order.
Bottom line, Ghost Quarter is probably the more powerful LD effect. The fact that it leaves a land behind doesn't make it worse, just like Path to Exile isn't "bad" because it leaves a land behind. Trying out two, but could easily see playing a 3rd one. Shadow of Doubt is kind of iffy and could possibly be replaced by Deathmark in case aggro decks are more popular in the local meta. Leyline is just a great catch-all card against graveyard strategies that doesn't stop us from playing stuff like Raven's Crime in those matchups where that card shines. Pithing Needle is there mostly for Vial and Tron decks. No dedicated anti-swarm cards so far (Drown in Sorrow).
Thoughts, suggestions and criticism are all welcome.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I think we'll be able to avoid more trouble if from here onward we are all expected to show result for our ideas instead of expecting the guys winning dailys to test them for us.
And in the end splashing or not will be decided by match-up math, the traditional build has one bad match-up, two unfavorable match-ups, a whole lot of fair matches and a whole archetype of good match-ups. If splashes can't produce either less unfavorable matches or much more dominant favorable matches without worsening our unfavorable matches, splashing is not worth it because as creative and progressive as you may be, you'll be losing more often.
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It may take a while before I complete the deck so the testing results would take time.
I just thought of Leechridden Swamp since most of the time I see the result of a match down the wire and both players are on topdeck mode. I feel the card doesn't hurt the deck that much if it replaces a Dakmor Salvage when played. Unlike Bump in the Night, which most likely would fight for a slot for a discard or removal piece. Not to mention the red splash if Flashback is used. With regards to tying 2 lands to use it, I often see that there are 3 lands in play in the mid to late game where most of the time only 1 mana is spent so I guess there is enough room for 2 to spend.
It also helps you finish the match faster since this deck goes down the wire most of the time and I've seen lots of comment in the lines of: "I could have won had he taken his next turn", "My opponent was down to one life and one more turn I would have won", "He got lucky and topdecked a xxx, another turn and he is dead".
Still, this is just theory and will update the thread if it is worth it once the deck is complete.
I will mention that my comment is not specific to any variant. Monoblack uses raven's crime crazy well, as does Loam. I assume other plashes would too.
Also, managed to go 2-2 with my deck tonight. Currently half of it's in the mail and so it's nowhere near done. I always managed to win on the back of pack rat or worm harvest because, both the Rack and Shrieking affliction are on their way.... That was really awkward, thinking I had added them and then realize I was just discarding/Poxing without a serious win-con. Awkward. Oh, well. Hopefully they'll be here next week and I'll be able to do better.
Edit: Also, as far as topdecks go, take funeral charm. I don't think there's any reason to use piracy charm, even if you're already splashing blue for some reason. I think Isonchron + Funeral Charm/Piracy charm is another deck. I'd love to see it, but it honestly sounds like a Blue combo deck running mad cantrips to hit the combo pieces early and splashes for thoughtseize/iok/shrieking affliction. It could be fun, but I'm not sure how that would work out. Like a tezzeret variant or something.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
1. No flaming/trolling. Disagree constructively and with good arguments.
2. If you see someone breaking rules, report it and don't respond.
3. Just be respectful.
In every other thread in the Modern forums, users are able to discuss a wide variety of builds, criticize and develop ideas, and generally get along. That's as true in proven archetypes like Melira Pod and Affinity, up and coming decks like Deadguy Ale and Nykthos Green, and decks still trying to sneak on the competitive scene like Green Sun's Zenith or Junk Haakon Loam. There is absolutely no reason that shouldn't be true here.
Please message me if you have concerns
Please note, we are opening this up on a trial basis. If the thread derails into a flame war again, it will be immediately closed down. ~Lantern
Just a reminder that a lot of people love this deck and want to see it go places
Decks:
BFZ Standard
Nothing yet
Modern
RBWMardu BurnWBR
Legacy
UUUPTSD NoughtUUU
EDH
WUDaxos VoltronUW
UBRJeleva - Oops all your spellsRBU
UBUVela, the Ninja Clad (retired)UBU
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So the big differences in my deck v. stock list is 4 path, 2 extirpate, 2 rats, 2 waste not, 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal (this card has been an all star) main deck. Sideboard of 2 torpor orb, 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2 stony silence, 2 timely reinforcements, 3 leyline of sanctity, 2 grafdigger cage, 2 disenchant.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
- Aren't these lists playing too many win conditions? My reasoning here is simply if the main objective of the deck is to significantly disrupt and hinder the opponents game plan to the point where there is nothing they can do, why does the deck go out of it's way to incorporate so many cards that don't actively contribute to this game plan? By my cont at least half of the non-land cards in these decks are win conditions.
- How come these decks don't play more land disruption? A very effective way of dealing with topdecks is to make sure that the opponent is incapable of casting whatever he topdecks into and thus forming a Legacy-like disruption bridge. Smallpox seems obvious, but cards like Fulminator Mage, Rain of Tears or even Ghost Quarter (basic lands aren't exactly a thing in Modern) and Tectonic Edge might also fit the bill, perhaps even splashing red for cheaper LD effects?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I agree with too many racks, at least for the moment. Part of the reason land disruption isn't prevalent is the desire to keep casting costs to a bare minimum tethered with the theory that you pull out all the important stuff they would cast anyway. By the time they are in top deck mode you should have control, probably a bridge or liliana down, and it doesn't matter what they draw. There are plenty of folks who do run smallpox, and I've tinkered with it as well. If you like it go for it, this deck can be built in a variety of ways depending on play style. Part of the reason some people don't use smallpox is because this deck runs just fine on 3 lands, pitching extras to raven's crime. So you have to be smart about using pox. Alternatively some people do run ghost quarter, and many don't for the same reasons mentioned about pox. I like rain of tears, but 3cc is too much for that card for some people. Another option would be shadow of doubt and cast it when someone tries to use a fetchland. All viable cards.
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Regarding win conditions, excluding a splash for Tarmogoyf (which I'm not against but am currently exploring possible finishers in mono black), how do Nantuko Shade or Tombstalker sound? While we are at it, delve cards should be carefully considered for this deck since they could effortlessly be played at bargain prices. Pack Rat also sounds good (though it's slower then the other two it can be very hard to kill). Most if not all of these cards conflict with Ensnaring Bridge though, so does this mean that wins via combat damage are off the table or that the bridge should be relegated to the sideboard (if it is to be played at all)?
I'm not sure if playing 8 rack effects is justifiable, but playing them in some number does sound reasonable.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
-It turns dead top-decks into potential win-cons.
-It gives you an out to bullets like Leyline of Sanctity.
-It gives you another way to hold off aggro besides Ensnaring Bridge.
Note that it can attack through an Ensnaring Bridge, becoming more effective with each Mutavault you control. The icing on the cake is that it's also difficult to spot remove, which gives you a hearty way to both directly win and survive more often.
Splashes (any changes, really) should be done from the standpoint of shoring up where the deck lacks, not adding more of what it already does well. What is this a dog against? In what situations does the package fall flat?
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Legacy
RB Goblins
Bathickey wrote recently about the principles of diminishing returns on the subject of discard. Indeed, your first Inquisition of Kozilek is your best one. The 2nd and 3rd ones cast follow a diminishing curve of effectiveness. Once an opponent has ramped up their full mana curve, these discard cards become useless, since your opponent is casting cards drawn off the top of their deck. The foundation of a classic 8 rack shell compensates for this fundamental failing by running a high number of Rack effects. The Racks are the sharpened sticks at the bottom of the pit, but they also have little game impact when they are brought into play. I have asked this before: From a skill build standpoint, why the number 8? Successful rack decks have existed long before shrieking affliction was ever printed.
My Mission over the past year: Assemble the best discard package, complement it with the right number of rack effects, and add some board control, draw engines, and alternate win conditions to produce a deck that is slower, but a little more balanced than mono-black rack:
Brack
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tezzert, Agent of Bolas
2 Dark Confidant
2 Pack Rat
2 Spellskite
4 The Rack
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Waste Not
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
1 Consult the Necrosages
1 Damnation
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mutavault
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Darkblast
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Spellskite
Notes on Some Elements of the Deck:
CREATURES
Dark Confidant. This guys is an auto-include. When you look at him 'on paper', he doesn't seem to be a fit. But, hey, we used to say that about Pack Rat. He has been hotly contested since the beginning, and I'm baffled as to why more people don't use him. Statistically, more large tournament top-showing Rack decks have achieved With Dark Confidant than Without. He can hasten your demise, but he can also turbo boost you towards a win that you never would have achieved without him on the board.
Pack Rat. A turn 2 Pack Rat can easily turn into a GG a few turns later. Even as a nonbo, He can shore up behind an ensnaring bridge, and put use to the cards that would have been discarded to a Liliana of the Veil.
Spellskite. He blocks. He anti-TWINS. He steals effects from Infect and Bogle. He shields you from Lightning Bolts. He protects your ensnaring bridge. Lastly, with a blue mana base, he activates with no pain to you.
PLANESWALKERS
Liliana of the Veil. For this deck? Auto-include.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Again, you can search my posts to see more of what I've written about my favorite planeswalker (hit the blue arrow beside my name -- you'll see that I'm posting a fair amount on Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas Control Decks FORUM in the Experimental/Development page of MTGsalvation). All three of his abilities are titanic. The life gaining can be critical, and one cool trick in this deck is to turn your ensnaring bridge into a creature, then sac it to Liliana of the Veil. Do this after you have assembled a rat army, and then break the dam!
DISCARD
Thoughtseize. 2 Damage sucks. Only 3.
Inquisition of Kozilek. 4-of, all day long.
Raven's Crime. 4-of, required. Every time I have tried to drop the count on this spell, I suffer for my folly. Four!
Consult the Necrosages. This is superior to Wrench Mind as a single. Esper Charm is pretty hot these days in Bant decks, and this swiss army knife of draw/discard performs the same primary functions. The sorcery speed drawback is minimal as the rest of the deck is mostly sorcery speed.
RACKS
The Rack. 4. Simple. Effective. Classic.
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Mutavault
4x Pack Rat
4x Raven's Crime
4x Shrieking Affliction
13x Swamp
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Victim of Night
4x Wrench Mind
4x Darkblast
4x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Surgical Extraction
I think it looks good on paper, however I have to ask about people's experiences with Dismember in this deck. The card seems like a natural fit in this type of deck since it's cheap and doesn't cost you a turn of forcing your opponent to discard (though I would take Snuff Out over it in a heartbeat). Murderous Cut seems attractive for similar reasons.
Still no comments on Evil Presence/Contaminated Ground?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
The problem is that turning something into an island is in general more powerful than turning it into a swamp (maybe this changes depending on the meta). Seas cantrips which is really what makes it so much better, and the syngergy now with merfolk decks and devotion.
The other problem is that locking a person out of a color is much harder to make actually crippling compared to 'normal' ld, so you also have to run a lot of the effect before you can reliably pull it off while your opponent tries to outrace it. If you think about it, they run around 24 effects (and fetches), vs. your 4/8/12 do nothing spells that you have to draw more of while racing them for the strat to be effective. They do turn off manlands, so a deck trying to win with colonnade is a pretty good target for a contaminated ground in the SB, but other than that...eh.
In my BG build I like smallpox a lot, which is an LD effect, and I use ghost quarter too--but they really work differently than ground and presence. ghost quarter mostly doesn't really feel like its taking up a spell slot too, which is nice, so I can run 8 effects for the price of 4.
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On this deck running too many win-cons, I think the classic build just runs too many redundant cards, 8 is the general agreed upon number for hitting an effect at a mana cost most consistently before running into serious diminishing returns. You can't run 16 discard effects that all are just variations on a theme and don't effect the board and rely soly on liliana and bridge to 'save you'.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Also testing 2 damnation in the sideboard. Just some mass removal to help with Affinity, Pod, and Tron which I consider to be the deck's hardest matchups.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Much obliged for this feedback. Thinking about it I've come to a similar conclusion that you can't include enough of these effects in the maindeck to be relevant without seriously impacting the effectiveness of the discard package. Smallpox aside, I couldn't incorporate more then 3 "swamp morphs" into the deck so I'm not sure how much of an impact just those three cards would make. It's still something I will try at some point, but for my first build I think something more mainstream is in order.
Without further ado, my first draft:
4 Mutavault
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Pack Rat
2 Dismember
2 Murderous Cut
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
Bottom line, Ghost Quarter is probably the more powerful LD effect. The fact that it leaves a land behind doesn't make it worse, just like Path to Exile isn't "bad" because it leaves a land behind. Trying out two, but could easily see playing a 3rd one. Shadow of Doubt is kind of iffy and could possibly be replaced by Deathmark in case aggro decks are more popular in the local meta. Leyline is just a great catch-all card against graveyard strategies that doesn't stop us from playing stuff like Raven's Crime in those matchups where that card shines. Pithing Needle is there mostly for Vial and Tron decks. No dedicated anti-swarm cards so far (Drown in Sorrow).
Thoughts, suggestions and criticism are all welcome.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
And in the end splashing or not will be decided by match-up math, the traditional build has one bad match-up, two unfavorable match-ups, a whole lot of fair matches and a whole archetype of good match-ups. If splashes can't produce either less unfavorable matches or much more dominant favorable matches without worsening our unfavorable matches, splashing is not worth it because as creative and progressive as you may be, you'll be losing more often.