As someone who has played and tested with vexing devil, I'd like to point out that more traditional tempo lists need their early creatures to stick in order to win. It's hard to get vexing devil to stick.
Then again, your deck has many interesting choices that I think should be looked at more in depth. For example:
~you include Remand but not snapcaster. Do you feel that snapcaster is too slow? Or leak not good enough? are you worried about them interfering with your two tombstalkers? (seems unlikely)
~Spell Snare over Spell Pierce? What 2 drops are you worried about? Typically the best targets for this are goyf and bob, but you run terminate so neither should be a problem.
Vexing Devil is really good with Bob. It doesn't matter the archetype, not all cards fall into these cute niches that so many of the current crop of players like to create out of thin air. Vexing Devil and Bob allow for extremely cheap pressure or damage for the minimal amount of cards, which is what Tempo is looking to do while having the ability to stop your opponent. Aggro is very similar, except it's not looking to stop the opponent from having a game plan, it's looking to keep the battlefield clear. Whether it be with Lightning Bolts or not though, it's the same. Any suggestion to it being otherwise is more or less you using the subjective, "I don't like it" because the card doesn't do what I think it should idea. That's more or less you only playing cards that fit your style of play, no matter it be wrong or the math doesn't work out for it.
Snapcaster sucks. I can't wait until everyone realizes it as I did a while ago. He's weak in most formats outside of Standard. Modern he's ok, but most of the time I would rather have another counter or removal. You know to make that Delver flip. Drawing another Snapcaster while you have one in hand usually sucks.
Remand works better with Tombstalker.
Gee what 2 drops would he be worried about, let's look at the two you mentioned him being able to use against those Goyfs and whatnot. Terminate, costs 2 mana, hmmm...... Tombstalkers are not easy to get into play for 2 mana, especially without free counters and stifle, might be a good creature to protect and keep in play.
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Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Vexing Devil is really good with Bob. It doesn't matter the archetype, not all cards fall into these cute niches that so many of the current crop of players like to create out of thin air. Vexing Devil and Bob allow for extremely cheap pressure or damage for the minimal amount of cards, which is what Tempo is looking to do while having the ability to stop your opponent. Aggro is very similar, except it's not looking to stop the opponent from having a game plan, it's looking to keep the battlefield clear. Whether it be with Lightning Bolts or not though, it's the same. Any suggestion to it being otherwise is more or less you using the subjective, "I don't like it" because the card doesn't do what I think it should idea. That's more or less you only playing cards that fit your style of play, no matter it be wrong or the math doesn't work out for it.
Snapcaster sucks. I can't wait until everyone realizes it as I did a while ago. He's weak in most formats outside of Standard. Modern he's ok, but most of the time I would rather have another counter or removal. You know to make that Delver flip. Drawing another Snapcaster while you have one in hand usually sucks.
Remand works better with Tombstalker.
Gee what 2 drops would he be worried about, let's look at the two you mentioned him being able to use against those Goyfs and whatnot. Terminate, costs 2 mana, hmmm...... Tombstalkers are not easy to get into play for 2 mana, especially without free counters and stifle, might be a good creature to protect and keep in play.
I can safely safe I am the "new crop of players". I play more type 2 and less legacy, so yes, I have far less experience in eternal formats. I didn't even start playing competitive magic till time spiral, so I'm "fairly" new. I don't know if that statement was directed to me or not, but if so, you hit it dead on. Whatever.
Vexing devil gives your opponent a choice. Yeah, I don't like him and he does't do what I think he should. That's why I just pointed out a flaw in him. I didn't recommend removing him, or anything of the sort. But regardless of my experience, I DID test with him because I thought he was interesting and red is my favorite color. And from the results of my testing with him(in various delver/fae tempo/burn decks) I pointed out why I do not like him.
He does not help in the matches I find troublesome(loam and various burn decks) and he hindered many of the good match ups(tron, control, and jund) by giving me opening hands where I knew that I had no pressure, even a snapcaster in my opening hand could provide a little amount of pressure. A vexing devil in the opening hand gives no pressure, which isn't what I was looking for from a 1 drop, regardless of the power/toughness. He could have been a 10/10 for R, still bad if he puts a dismember for zero mana in my opponents hand. So I tried him out in a burn slot rather than a creature slot, lowering my instant/sorcery count to 19 from 23(the bare minimum to flip delver) and he still did not preform because you can't count of him to finish off your opponent. If I'm dead on the swing back, a burst lightning, snapcaster, or bolt would be much better than vexing devil.
"Snapcaster sucks." Are you kidding? You gave so little evidence to this claim.
Drawing multiples sucks? Tell that to tombstalker, v.Clique, and GoST that doesn't make them less powerful cards, not even a little bit. The only logical thing you said on this topic is that he won't flip delver, but no other creature(vexing devil) will flip delver, doesn't mean you don't run any. Please, you just ripped on me for pointing out a minor flaw in Vexing devil and saying that my personal preference should not influence my decision on weather or not to run it, then you go right ahead and do the same thing about snapcaster mage. You didn't even mention the upsides in grixis colors, like snapping back IOK or bolt.
Also: I don't understand your comment about the two drops. Maybe I need some clarification? The way I see it: tempo decks seems to be a bit weak to turn 1 target discard and burn. Spell pierce does well on those fronts. There are many worth while 2 drops in modern which spellsnare can hit but I simply could not think of anything that would be worth hitting that pirce could not also hit.
Example cards that these types of countermagic can hit:
~terminate, 2 mana counters(leak, remand etc), and helix can all be countered by both pierce and snare. So these don't really add to this argument.
~goyf, bob, the snapcaster body, and Keldon Marauders. My argument was that goyf and bob can be dealt with via your maindeck removal(terminate, smother and
bolt) Yeah, snapcaster can get more value if you have to remove it, but you also stated that snapcaster is slow and bad in multiples, so you expect it to see less play.
~spellpeirce can hit and noncreature spell, but is close to useless after turn 5+, of course in the first 5 turn of the game, liliana, IOK, bolt, path(other removal I didn't mention), counter magic, and Isocron scepter, which I believe are more detrimental to a delver deck than any of the harsh 2 drops I mentioned.
In summary, I'd like to ask you(in more detail) what you think the upsides to Vexing devil are, the downsides to snapcaster mage, and any other reasons why spell snare would trump spell pierce. Are you running grixis? If so, would it be possible to see your build?
Hey guys, u/w/r delver player here. The grixis build started to catch my eye so I've started developing my own list. It seems like everyone is in agreement on the most optimal instant/sorcery package, but can't come to terms with the creature layout.
I have some ideas of my own, I'll share as soon as I do some testing this week. I have high hopes that we can put grixis on the map.
How do you fair against Jund decks? That match is super hard. My normal game against them is some combination of shackles and IOK, usually even more shackles post board.
Nice list though!
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
How do you fair against Jund decks? That match is super hard. My normal game against them is some combination of shackles and IOK, usually even more shackles post board.
Nice list though!
I dont have much experience versus jund. most of my meta is affinity and general Aggro strategies which this deck does very well versus. Will let you know in a bit.
I saw a legacy deck earlyer this week sporting death's shadow. I wonder if that is a good creature to compliment delver given that swords to plowshares is not* in the modern pool. Seems like I usually win with less than ten life, making shadow a 3+ creature for B. Thoughtseize, shock+fetch and Bob are all good effects that require life.
Shackles is good, but Anathemancer is insane against Jund. I board Anathemancer in my Jund for the mirror. It's also fits well in colours for Grixis.
here's a question about how you use anathermancer:
Do you drop it in early and have it deal less damage, or late when it can deal more but the odds of it getting stripped to IOK/thoughtseize to way up?
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
I saw a legacy deck earlyer this week sporting death's shadow. I wonder if that is a good creature to compliment delver given that swords to plowshares is not* in the modern pool. Seems like I usually win with less than ten life, making shadow a 3+ creature for B. Thoughtseize, shock+fetch and Bob are all good effects that require life.
*now and not are a very silly typo.
My experience with Death's Shadow is it is able to come down at a decent time and makes it very hard for them to race. It just gets so big so quickly, it demands removal most of the time and dodges a large amount of it too.
What Looks like a good spot for death's shadow? I'm trying to force it in, but I'm thinking I might have to rework the whole backbone to my deck in order to fit it.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Maybe the Suffer the Past slot to give you two and maybe electrolyze for a third if you want it. It's hard to say though, your list is really tight and I can see the trouble of what to cut, I guess just see how much you like them in the list and let us know.
so after a little work with death's shadow, I can safely say that he is not what this deck needs. The maximum amount of life you could want to lose turn 1 is 7(probe -2, fetch for shock -3, thought seize -2) Even with these plays(which are optimal) you can't land a death's shadow turn 2 making it about 99% worse than delver/dark confidant).
for this experiment, I used 2 lists. One based around delver+deaths shadow and one based around an even faster clock. Both decks worked "ok" but the shadow was the major disappointment.
so after a little work with death's shadow, I can safely say that he is not what this deck needs. The maximum amount of life you could want to lose turn 1 is 7(probe -2, fetch for shock -3, thought seize -2) Even with these plays(which are optimal) you can't land a death's shadow turn 2 making it about 99% worse than delver/dark confidant).
for this experiment, I used 2 lists. One based around delver+deaths shadow and one based around an even faster clock. Both decks worked "ok" but the shadow was the major disappointment.
I never really tried playing it that aggressively, it worked well that way. Having it come down a bit later when you have more control and have your life stabilized at 7-10 using it as a finisher is probably a better approach.
If you really want to get it out turn two you can do the turn 1 play you described and Dismember their 1 drop then drop Death's Shadow as a 4/4 or bigger depending on your 2nd turn fetch. It is certainty a suicide plan if you try that.
I never really tried playing it that aggressively, it worked well that way. Having it come down a bit later when you have more control and have your life stabilized at 7-10 using it as a finisher is probably a better approach.
You do understand the difference between tempo and control, don't you? because the bolded words are not really applicable to Delver.
Tempo is an aggro strategy that plays efficient threats early and then uses uses "control" cards (counters, discard, removal, bounce, etc.) to disrupt the opponent for long enough to win with your weenies.
If you want a deck that controls the early game, stabilizes, and then drops a late game finisher, I would recommend Blade, Teachings, Gifts, etc. You know, one of those threads in the "Control" subforum.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
4 Thoughtseize?
Might I ask why you guys are playing this over IoK? IoK hits everything we care about and doesn't shock us(seems like there was some concern about self damage).
Uranium, doesn't probe seem a bit outta place when you really don't need to see their hand on account of having access to target hand disruption? Feels like this slot would be better as any other cantrip (serum visions?)
I think we should start with a solid list of cards that are needed for this deck to function optimally, this way, even as we optimize our lists, we will all have a central base. Because I'm too lazy to make a primer this seems like a good place to start the brainstorming.
**note that the CMC of these cards should not exceed 4, because this is a tempo deck and so we can use bob optimally.
instants
x4 lightning bolt
x4 two drop counter magic (remand leak etc)
x2-4 one drop counter magic (so we are less likely to be hit by opposing duress, IoK, thoughtseize)
sorcery
x4 one drop hand manipulation
x4 target hand disruption (I think IoK would be best here)
Any thing that should be added/removed? I think with a 30ish card skeleton, that leaves enough flex room to customize the deck with removal/other triicks.
Looks like a good skeleton to me. Izzet Charm might merit consideration in the CMC2 counter slot as well.
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"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
So based on some ideas I've picked up from lurking this thread and spotting a couple Grixis Delver variants pop up on dailies, I decided to test this list extensively:
It has performed fairly well. It has some bad MU's however... The main nightmare MU that comes to mind is RDW. This deck takes a lot of shock from the lands and though it is fast and can race with the fastest of them, it does sometimes seem to fall short against RDW. Every other deck it seems like I've got a great shot at beating, and have beat them all, including RDW.
Would love to hear your opinions and take any suggestions you may have for the deck to increase its efficiency/sustain.
I've been playing RWU Delver, but trying to splash for confidant, but 4 colour is a little much, so I'm looking at ditching the helixes and paths for terminates and discard.
I've been playing RWU Delver, but trying to splash for confidant, but 4 colour is a little much, so I'm looking at ditching the helixes and paths for terminates and discard.
Probably too mana intensive for a 3 color deck. Also doesn't have any sacrifice synergy with the cards you generally want to use in this package. Would work well with Smallpox/Rusalka or something, I'd imagine.
Certainly not better than Vendilion Clique IMO in that spot.
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Vexing Devil is really good with Bob. It doesn't matter the archetype, not all cards fall into these cute niches that so many of the current crop of players like to create out of thin air. Vexing Devil and Bob allow for extremely cheap pressure or damage for the minimal amount of cards, which is what Tempo is looking to do while having the ability to stop your opponent. Aggro is very similar, except it's not looking to stop the opponent from having a game plan, it's looking to keep the battlefield clear. Whether it be with Lightning Bolts or not though, it's the same. Any suggestion to it being otherwise is more or less you using the subjective, "I don't like it" because the card doesn't do what I think it should idea. That's more or less you only playing cards that fit your style of play, no matter it be wrong or the math doesn't work out for it.
Snapcaster sucks. I can't wait until everyone realizes it as I did a while ago. He's weak in most formats outside of Standard. Modern he's ok, but most of the time I would rather have another counter or removal. You know to make that Delver flip. Drawing another Snapcaster while you have one in hand usually sucks.
Remand works better with Tombstalker.
Gee what 2 drops would he be worried about, let's look at the two you mentioned him being able to use against those Goyfs and whatnot. Terminate, costs 2 mana, hmmm...... Tombstalkers are not easy to get into play for 2 mana, especially without free counters and stifle, might be a good creature to protect and keep in play.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
I can safely safe I am the "new crop of players". I play more type 2 and less legacy, so yes, I have far less experience in eternal formats. I didn't even start playing competitive magic till time spiral, so I'm "fairly" new. I don't know if that statement was directed to me or not, but if so, you hit it dead on. Whatever.
Vexing devil gives your opponent a choice. Yeah, I don't like him and he does't do what I think he should. That's why I just pointed out a flaw in him. I didn't recommend removing him, or anything of the sort. But regardless of my experience, I DID test with him because I thought he was interesting and red is my favorite color. And from the results of my testing with him(in various delver/fae tempo/burn decks) I pointed out why I do not like him.
He does not help in the matches I find troublesome(loam and various burn decks) and he hindered many of the good match ups(tron, control, and jund) by giving me opening hands where I knew that I had no pressure, even a snapcaster in my opening hand could provide a little amount of pressure. A vexing devil in the opening hand gives no pressure, which isn't what I was looking for from a 1 drop, regardless of the power/toughness. He could have been a 10/10 for R, still bad if he puts a dismember for zero mana in my opponents hand. So I tried him out in a burn slot rather than a creature slot, lowering my instant/sorcery count to 19 from 23(the bare minimum to flip delver) and he still did not preform because you can't count of him to finish off your opponent. If I'm dead on the swing back, a burst lightning, snapcaster, or bolt would be much better than vexing devil.
"Snapcaster sucks." Are you kidding? You gave so little evidence to this claim.
Drawing multiples sucks? Tell that to tombstalker, v.Clique, and GoST that doesn't make them less powerful cards, not even a little bit. The only logical thing you said on this topic is that he won't flip delver, but no other creature(vexing devil) will flip delver, doesn't mean you don't run any. Please, you just ripped on me for pointing out a minor flaw in Vexing devil and saying that my personal preference should not influence my decision on weather or not to run it, then you go right ahead and do the same thing about snapcaster mage. You didn't even mention the upsides in grixis colors, like snapping back IOK or bolt.
Also: I don't understand your comment about the two drops. Maybe I need some clarification? The way I see it: tempo decks seems to be a bit weak to turn 1 target discard and burn. Spell pierce does well on those fronts. There are many worth while 2 drops in modern which spellsnare can hit but I simply could not think of anything that would be worth hitting that pirce could not also hit.
Example cards that these types of countermagic can hit:
~terminate, 2 mana counters(leak, remand etc), and helix can all be countered by both pierce and snare. So these don't really add to this argument.
~goyf, bob, the snapcaster body, and Keldon Marauders. My argument was that goyf and bob can be dealt with via your maindeck removal(terminate, smother and
bolt) Yeah, snapcaster can get more value if you have to remove it, but you also stated that snapcaster is slow and bad in multiples, so you expect it to see less play.
~spellpeirce can hit and noncreature spell, but is close to useless after turn 5+, of course in the first 5 turn of the game, liliana, IOK, bolt, path(other removal I didn't mention), counter magic, and Isocron scepter, which I believe are more detrimental to a delver deck than any of the harsh 2 drops I mentioned.
In summary, I'd like to ask you(in more detail) what you think the upsides to Vexing devil are, the downsides to snapcaster mage, and any other reasons why spell snare would trump spell pierce. Are you running grixis? If so, would it be possible to see your build?
I have some ideas of my own, I'll share as soon as I do some testing this week. I have high hopes that we can put grixis on the map.
3 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
2 Remand
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rise//Fall
4 Serum Visions
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Crypt
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Deathmark
2 Darkblast
2 Spellskite
1 Torpor Orb
How do you fair against Jund decks? That match is super hard. My normal game against them is some combination of shackles and IOK, usually even more shackles post board.
Nice list though!
I dont have much experience versus jund. most of my meta is affinity and general Aggro strategies which this deck does very well versus. Will let you know in a bit.
*now and not are a very silly typo.
Wait a sec...it's not in the M13 Complete Spoiler, and that's the most recently previewed/released Modern-legal set.
Sorry, StP still ain't Modern-legal (but Ground Seal and Rancor will be).
here's a question about how you use anathermancer:
Do you drop it in early and have it deal less damage, or late when it can deal more but the odds of it getting stripped to IOK/thoughtseize to way up?
My experience with Death's Shadow is it is able to come down at a decent time and makes it very hard for them to race. It just gets so big so quickly, it demands removal most of the time and dodges a large amount of it too.
Needs moar Delver.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 V.Clique
Other Spells 24
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Burst Lightning
1 Electrolyse
2 Remand
3 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Leak
1 Suffer the past
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Creeping tarpit
1 Blood Crypt
4 Misty rainforest
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
What Looks like a good spot for death's shadow? I'm trying to force it in, but I'm thinking I might have to rework the whole backbone to my deck in order to fit it.
Needs moar Delver.
for this experiment, I used 2 lists. One based around delver+deaths shadow and one based around an even faster clock. Both decks worked "ok" but the shadow was the major disappointment.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Death's Shadow
Other Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
3 Remand
3 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Seize
1 Suffer the past
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian probe
1 Creeping tarpit
2 Blood Crypt
4 Misty rainforest
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
The second list was based on a number of comments from NidStyles, props to you man.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vexing Devil
4 Death's Shadow
2 Grim lavamancer
Other Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Burst Lightning
3 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Seize
2 Spell Snare
4 Slight of hand
4 Gitaxian probe
2 Creeping tarpit
1 Blood Crypt
4 Misty rainforest
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
I never really tried playing it that aggressively, it worked well that way. Having it come down a bit later when you have more control and have your life stabilized at 7-10 using it as a finisher is probably a better approach.
If you really want to get it out turn two you can do the turn 1 play you described and Dismember their 1 drop then drop Death's Shadow as a 4/4 or bigger depending on your 2nd turn fetch. It is certainty a suicide plan if you try that.
Needs moar Delver.
You do understand the difference between tempo and control, don't you? because the bolded words are not really applicable to Delver.
Tempo is an aggro strategy that plays efficient threats early and then uses uses "control" cards (counters, discard, removal, bounce, etc.) to disrupt the opponent for long enough to win with your weenies.
If you want a deck that controls the early game, stabilizes, and then drops a late game finisher, I would recommend Blade, Teachings, Gifts, etc. You know, one of those threads in the "Control" subforum.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
This guy, he knows.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Looks like a good skeleton to me. Izzet Charm might merit consideration in the CMC2 counter slot as well.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Izzet charm sounds good but idk, I am thinking Blightning would be more useful all day every day.
With the current shell I would drop a bob and a mage +4 blightning and I really want to make use of vendetta.
Is bob really needed? cause imo I dont see the life loss any better than 1 more cmc on phyrexian arena.
What about bump in the night?
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
So based on some ideas I've picked up from lurking this thread and spotting a couple Grixis Delver variants pop up on dailies, I decided to test this list extensively:
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
Instants/Sorceries: 22
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Vapor Snag
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countersquall
2 Smother
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rain of Gore
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Annul
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Spell Snare
It has performed fairly well. It has some bad MU's however... The main nightmare MU that comes to mind is RDW. This deck takes a lot of shock from the lands and though it is fast and can race with the fastest of them, it does sometimes seem to fall short against RDW. Every other deck it seems like I've got a great shot at beating, and have beat them all, including RDW.
Would love to hear your opinions and take any suggestions you may have for the deck to increase its efficiency/sustain.
Thank you in advance.
I've been playing RWU Delver, but trying to splash for confidant, but 4 colour is a little much, so I'm looking at ditching the helixes and paths for terminates and discard.
Probably too mana intensive for a 3 color deck. Also doesn't have any sacrifice synergy with the cards you generally want to use in this package. Would work well with Smallpox/Rusalka or something, I'd imagine.
Certainly not better than Vendilion Clique IMO in that spot.