In regards to claw... I too hate it, but I don't know that I hate it as much as you guys. You have to keep in mind, we will be countering spells, which met us 1 life each time. This is how I have won most of my games. That said I still want there to be something better than claw... I immediately fell in love with monastery for burn siege a while back, but at the point it comes down... We will already likely be down pretty low, so even if they have to slow down, we will have to card for card match their burn, and since their burn density is greater than our counters... They will obviously win that race. Not to mention we will be on our back foot for the rest of the game. I guess it depends on your counter density for the first two turns.
That said, I would love for it to work, so let me know how testing goes. I just hope that it isn't the answer to our problems as I would love a hard fix for the matchup.
Gotta say I am surprised you guys like jace. I'll have to see how he does. As for thundermaw, I'll probably pick up a copy, but I am liking izzet staticaster.
It's also worth noting that if siege is in your opener, you really shouldn't use any of your dispels, negates or any sort of countermagic until after you've resolved it (assuming this is going to happen turn 3). The only thing worth dealing with prior to landing siege are creatures and the only thing worth actually countering is eidolon. This is another matchup I actually like angler in, he's a 4th tasigur, kills a turn quicker than tasigur, doesn't die to searing effects and gets through eidolon pain.
A turn 2 tasigur into monastery seige is very difficult for burn to deal with no matter how much damage they deal the 1st 2 turns. Their draw has to be all creatures while we do nothing for they restof the game.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
I'm starting work on the primer, reached up to the core, but i will need help on the card choices since there are simply too many.
Most likely there will be 4 sections: creatures, spells, lands, sideboard
not sure if to split the spells into "instants and sorceries", and others, since i don't know of any artifact or enchantment that stays maindeck, except for sword of light and shadow which is my pet peeve
It would help if you would suggest cards and give an explanation of why they should be in the deck
I'm starting work on the primer, reached up to the core, but i will need help on the card choices since there are simply too many.
Most likely there will be 4 sections: creatures, spells, lands, sideboard
not sure if to split the spells into "instants and sorceries", and others, since i don't know of any artifact or enchantment that stays maindeck, except for sword of light and shadow which is my pet peeve
It would help if you would suggest cards and give an explanation of why they should be in the deck
Grixis Delver evolved from the original UR Delver as players tried to address the main weaknesses of the UR build, mainly the inability to kill fat creatures, and the lack of a way to pull ahead in grindy games, and as a result. These made UR Delver weak to most midrange and control decks in the format, which makes up a significant portion of the metagame. Original builds started with Dark Confidant, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Terminate as ways to address the problem with grinds and fat creatures, but still had problems, as the deck used too much of its life as a resource without a real way to gain it back. Young Pyromancer gave us another threat, but Grixis Delver only really became viable with the printing of Tasigur, which gave us a big creature and gave us game against the other variants.
Pros
Most versatile and efficient answers
Able to grind out advantages in long games
Has the potential to be the most explosive variant due to 1 mana Tasigurs
Cons
No way to gain life to counteract damage from mana base
No answer to problematic enchantments beyond countering and discard
Increased weakness to graveyard hate
UR Delver: Without Treasure Cruise, UR Delver becomes a strict tempo deck, since to have a chance to win it needs to come out fast and strong so that it has enough burn to finish the opponent off before it runs out of gas. Even then, the deck has trouble drawing cards efficiently, and has no way to remove fat creatures such as Rhino and Goyf, both of which block very well and race faster than Delver. Until they print a good enough draw spell or more cards to support a tempo plan, UR delver is barely playable in the current meta.
Temur Delver: Essentially UR Delver, but with 4 Goyfs and Ancient Grudge with Nature's Claim in the sideboard. This version has more threats, but ultimately the tempo plan in Modern is still not effective enough for the deck to work. The deck works in Legacy because it has the ability to restrict the opponent's mana and use free counterspells. None of those are in Modern.
UWR Delver: UR Delver with much more efficient spells and resilient threats. The problem now is that Geist matches up quite poorly against all the big creatures. The removal of choice, path to exile doesn't really fit a tempo plan and can create headaches for you by ramping the opponent. The main draws to UWR is the lifegain that allows you to stabilise late into the game, as well as the ridiculous sideboard options that white provides, but though its sideboard is powerful, they only answer very specific matchups
The number of creatures in the deck should not exceed 15 if you want Delver to be consistent enough. Other than the mandatory 4 Delvers, the rest of the core are flexible, though you are highly recommended not to run less than 3 copies of any of them.
Delver of Secrets The namesake of the deck, and the reason why the deck is so explosive. No less than 4
Young Pyromancer One of the best threats in the deck, can take over the game quickly if unanswered. Getting a Pyro out with a few cantrips also helps stabilise your defense against opposing ground forces. Run 3 or 4.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang Our Goyf, except it draws cards and can cost 1 mana. But it's a Legendary, which is the only drawback. This is the card that made Grixis Delver competitive. Run 3
Snapcaster Mage Best blue card in Modern. The deck uses it's graveyard a lot, and this may not always have a lot of options available. Run 3-4
Lightning Bolt Best red card in the format, possibly the entire game. Run 4.
Serum Visions This is the best Modern has to offer in terms of card selection. Run 4.
Gitaxian Probe Gives you information and cantrips for just 2 life. Fills your yard, spawns elementals, lets you prioritize counters. Run 4
Thought Scour This is what gives you deck its explosiveness. It is however disappointing to draw more than 1, or late game. Run 2 - 4
Murderous Cut The main reason to play black. Kills a creature at instant speed for potentially 1 mana. Run 1-2
Terminate Backup removal if you don't have a yard, which is rare, but happens. Run 1-2
Electrolyze 3 mana instant speed 2/3 for 1. Gives extra reach too. Run 2-3
I'm not including counterspells in the core since there are too many variations between decks. In fact the makeup of the counterspells is probably the single biggest difference between all the various build of Grixis Delver. However, the most common number to run is 7, with occasional variations to 6 or 8. The elaboration on these will be in the card choices section.
This is a generally accepted mana base, not much explanation needed. We try not to run too many shocks since we lack life gain options to make up for shock lands. Sulfur Falls/ Darkslick shores will depend on individual build, but this should really be the UR fastland. The purpose is to give a dual land that can etb untapped without taxing your life, and as insurance against choke.
Vendillion Clique" target="blank">Vendillion Clique Excellent disruptive creature and decent clock. However, it is bad against a field of Lingering Souls. It's getting played less now simply because Tasigur makes a much bigger impact, but this can be sort of your 4th Tasigur. If you run this, make sure to pack ways to clear those pesky spirit tokens.
Grim Lavamancer" target="blank">Grim Lavamancer This seems rather debated. On one hand, it is ridiculous against a field of burn, infect, abzan, twin and affinity. That's basically more than half the meta. It also clears up the yard for stronger Tasigur activation. However, getting it turn 1 may put a strain on your graveyard between the Tasigurs and Cuts. Any more than 1 needs to be supplemented with more Thought Scours
Deprive" target="blank">Deprive Hard counter, but the drawback makes it worse in the early game, especially as a tempo deck. Unlike Mana Leak or Spell Pierce it's not a card you would be sad to see late game.
Mana Leak" target="blank">Mana Leak In direct competition with Deprive. Stronger in the early game, weaker in the late game. The choice between both would have to be a meta call. If you expect games to go long, play Deprive, and if you expect a lot of Aggro, Combo, Burn decks run Mana Leak.
Spell Snare" target="blank">Spell Snare Most efficient counterspell. Counters Goyf, Confidant, Ooze, RIP, Thalia, Daybreak Coronet, Ravager, Plating, Overseer, Remand, Leak, Helix, Eidolon, Skullcrack, Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm. You don't want to overload on these though.
Spell Pierce" target="blank">Spell Pierce Very high variance. Either very good, or ridiculously bad. Since we're playing Tasigur, I wouldn't play this since I wouldn't want to get it back with Tasigur. But some people like this, so it's up for consideration and debate.
Remand" target="blank">Remand Best tempo counterspell, besides Memory Lapse which is not legal. It does cantrip, so even late game it's not so useless, but some people would rather get rid of a problem permanently than to hope to draw another answer. Even so, a Remand or 2 early in the game can put you very far ahead of the game.
For Lands, the flexible spots are for sure the sulfur falls vs darkslick shores. and for fetches, Bloodstained mire, polluted delta, and steam vents are the best options available, the best being the last 2. Filter lands can work out well, but are bad when they are alone on the board and/or require at least one other untapped land to make use of that filter. Quick lands and Buddy lands preferred over filter lands. 17-19 lands is where you want to be with the deck.
Nice work so far, Frankie. Clique should probably get a mention as it's a 1 or 2-of in some lists. Olivia might be worthwhile to throw in there too, but you definitely have the core.
Nice job on the primer. For other card options, Ive been running a 1 of darkblast. Its essentially my 4th copy of thought scour while also being my 2nd copy of electrolyze. Its great to have against affinity and infect, its great at handling lingering souls, and it can help tasigur eat goyf, rhino and enemy tasigurs.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
darkblast seems solid in the meta.it also helps tasigur take out opposing goys, rhinos and tasigurs. might try that too. I'm wary of cards that may require me to spend black mana on turn 1 though
I don't know about you guys but I start almost every game by either lava axing or bolting myself between fetching shocks and probing. A turn one watery grave is my most common play probably because I'm generally trying to play tasigur by turn 2. Especially if you're up against infect and your life total is basically just a resource (dont get too cocky though because modern ug infect can win through damage) having a turn 1 darkblast is a major issue for them.
Against everything but burn this really cavalier attitude towards our life total isn't easy to punish because we are excellent at gumming the ground with bananamen and elementals and getting aggressive in the sky, all while still being reactive with removal and cm.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
My MTGO version plays Deprive over Remand as I haven't spent much on it so far, and I haven't missed Remand a single bit. I think 3 Mana Leak and 2 Deprive is the way to go, and give you an even mix of counters for early and late game use. Remand andManaleak both drops off in value a lot as the game progresses. Also, if you wantto shore up any weaknesses against Abzan, Deprive over Remand is a good place to start. The bounce land drawback is sometimes not even significant since you don't have a land drop anyway
Sorry for the multiple posts but it isn't letting me edit my last one...
In my list above, I'm cutting the sleight of hand For the 3rd remand. Reason should be fairly obvious and I dont know why I didnt think it before but sleight sucks so more action that draws a card still is much better
Also I'm liking these lists. Its good to see everyone moving away from maindeck discard like in the lists that were showing up a month ago.
I will be bringing this to a pptq on saturday. I'll type a report saturday night or sunday hopefully. So lets hope I get a good result and its worth the read (Not to mention the 2 and a half hour drive). I have a lot of homework this weekend but I'm sure I'll find the time
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
That said, I would love for it to work, so let me know how testing goes. I just hope that it isn't the answer to our problems as I would love a hard fix for the matchup.
Gotta say I am surprised you guys like jace. I'll have to see how he does. As for thundermaw, I'll probably pick up a copy, but I am liking izzet staticaster.
A turn 2 tasigur into monastery seige is very difficult for burn to deal with no matter how much damage they deal the 1st 2 turns. Their draw has to be all creatures while we do nothing for they restof the game.
Most likely there will be 4 sections: creatures, spells, lands, sideboard
not sure if to split the spells into "instants and sorceries", and others, since i don't know of any artifact or enchantment that stays maindeck, except for sword of light and shadow which is my pet peeve
It would help if you would suggest cards and give an explanation of why they should be in the deck
Since there are so many options of what to do, we should assign people with getting this information and making it look pretty. I can handle getting the creature info, also i think we don't need to split between instants and sorceries. Everyone would agree possible cards for creatures we consider is: Delver of secrets, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, Vendilion Clique, Monastery Swiftspear, and Grim Lavamancer. anything else that i could have missed?
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Grixis Delver evolved from the original UR Delver as players tried to address the main weaknesses of the UR build, mainly the inability to kill fat creatures, and the lack of a way to pull ahead in grindy games, and as a result. These made UR Delver weak to most midrange and control decks in the format, which makes up a significant portion of the metagame. Original builds started with Dark Confidant, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, Terminate as ways to address the problem with grinds and fat creatures, but still had problems, as the deck used too much of its life as a resource without a real way to gain it back. Young Pyromancer gave us another threat, but Grixis Delver only really became viable with the printing of Tasigur, which gave us a big creature and gave us game against the other variants.
Pros
- Most versatile and efficient answers
- Able to grind out advantages in long games
- Has the potential to be the most explosive variant due to 1 mana Tasigurs
Cons
- No way to gain life to counteract damage from mana base
- No answer to problematic enchantments beyond countering and discard
- Increased weakness to graveyard hate
UR Delver: Without Treasure Cruise, UR Delver becomes a strict tempo deck, since to have a chance to win it needs to come out fast and strong so that it has enough burn to finish the opponent off before it runs out of gas. Even then, the deck has trouble drawing cards efficiently, and has no way to remove fat creatures such as Rhino and Goyf, both of which block very well and race faster than Delver. Until they print a good enough draw spell or more cards to support a tempo plan, UR delver is barely playable in the current meta.
Temur Delver: Essentially UR Delver, but with 4 Goyfs and Ancient Grudge with Nature's Claim in the sideboard. This version has more threats, but ultimately the tempo plan in Modern is still not effective enough for the deck to work. The deck works in Legacy because it has the ability to restrict the opponent's mana and use free counterspells. None of those are in Modern.
UWR Delver: UR Delver with much more efficient spells and resilient threats. The problem now is that Geist matches up quite poorly against all the big creatures. The removal of choice, path to exile doesn't really fit a tempo plan and can create headaches for you by ramping the opponent. The main draws to UWR is the lifegain that allows you to stabilise late into the game, as well as the ridiculous sideboard options that white provides, but though its sideboard is powerful, they only answer very specific matchups
The number of creatures in the deck should not exceed 15 if you want Delver to be consistent enough. Other than the mandatory 4 Delvers, the rest of the core are flexible, though you are highly recommended not to run less than 3 copies of any of them.
Delver of Secrets The namesake of the deck, and the reason why the deck is so explosive. No less than 4
Young Pyromancer One of the best threats in the deck, can take over the game quickly if unanswered. Getting a Pyro out with a few cantrips also helps stabilise your defense against opposing ground forces. Run 3 or 4.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang Our Goyf, except it draws cards and can cost 1 mana. But it's a Legendary, which is the only drawback. This is the card that made Grixis Delver competitive. Run 3
Snapcaster Mage Best blue card in Modern. The deck uses it's graveyard a lot, and this may not always have a lot of options available. Run 3-4
Lightning Bolt Best red card in the format, possibly the entire game. Run 4.
Serum Visions This is the best Modern has to offer in terms of card selection. Run 4.
Gitaxian Probe Gives you information and cantrips for just 2 life. Fills your yard, spawns elementals, lets you prioritize counters. Run 4
Thought Scour This is what gives you deck its explosiveness. It is however disappointing to draw more than 1, or late game. Run 2 - 4
Murderous Cut The main reason to play black. Kills a creature at instant speed for potentially 1 mana. Run 1-2
Terminate Backup removal if you don't have a yard, which is rare, but happens. Run 1-2
Electrolyze 3 mana instant speed 2/3 for 1. Gives extra reach too. Run 2-3
I'm not including counterspells in the core since there are too many variations between decks. In fact the makeup of the counterspells is probably the single biggest difference between all the various build of Grixis Delver. However, the most common number to run is 7, with occasional variations to 6 or 8. The elaboration on these will be in the card choices section.
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Sulfur Falls/Darkslick shores
This is a generally accepted mana base, not much explanation needed. We try not to run too many shocks since we lack life gain options to make up for shock lands. Sulfur Falls/ Darkslick shores will depend on individual build, but this should really be the UR fastland. The purpose is to give a dual land that can etb untapped without taxing your life, and as insurance against choke.
Vendillion Clique" target="blank">Vendillion Clique Excellent disruptive creature and decent clock. However, it is bad against a field of Lingering Souls. It's getting played less now simply because Tasigur makes a much bigger impact, but this can be sort of your 4th Tasigur. If you run this, make sure to pack ways to clear those pesky spirit tokens.
Grim Lavamancer" target="blank">Grim Lavamancer This seems rather debated. On one hand, it is ridiculous against a field of burn, infect, abzan, twin and affinity. That's basically more than half the meta. It also clears up the yard for stronger Tasigur activation. However, getting it turn 1 may put a strain on your graveyard between the Tasigurs and Cuts. Any more than 1 needs to be supplemented with more Thought Scours
Deprive" target="blank">Deprive Hard counter, but the drawback makes it worse in the early game, especially as a tempo deck. Unlike Mana Leak or Spell Pierce it's not a card you would be sad to see late game.
Mana Leak" target="blank">Mana Leak In direct competition with Deprive. Stronger in the early game, weaker in the late game. The choice between both would have to be a meta call. If you expect games to go long, play Deprive, and if you expect a lot of Aggro, Combo, Burn decks run Mana Leak.
Spell Snare" target="blank">Spell Snare Most efficient counterspell. Counters Goyf, Confidant, Ooze, RIP, Thalia, Daybreak Coronet, Ravager, Plating, Overseer, Remand, Leak, Helix, Eidolon, Skullcrack, Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm. You don't want to overload on these though.
Spell Pierce" target="blank">Spell Pierce Very high variance. Either very good, or ridiculously bad. Since we're playing Tasigur, I wouldn't play this since I wouldn't want to get it back with Tasigur. But some people like this, so it's up for consideration and debate.
Remand" target="blank">Remand Best tempo counterspell, besides Memory Lapse which is not legal. It does cantrip, so even late game it's not so useless, but some people would rather get rid of a problem permanently than to hope to draw another answer. Even so, a Remand or 2 early in the game can put you very far ahead of the game.
I roughly have the core section done, but i need more on the other non-core options. In other words, the flexi slots, where i need a lot of opinions.
Let me know what to add, and what to improve.
Needs more pictures and color, but the content's the most important for now
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Against everything but burn this really cavalier attitude towards our life total isn't easy to punish because we are excellent at gumming the ground with bananamen and elementals and getting aggressive in the sky, all while still being reactive with removal and cm.
4 young pyromancer
3 tasigur, the golden fang
3 snapcaster mage
4 serum visions
4 gitaxian probe
3 thought scour
1 sleight of hand
1 darkblast
1 electrolyze
1 terminate
1 murderous cut
1 deprive
2 mana leak
2 remand
2 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
4 polluted delta
2 steam vents
2 watery grave
1 sulfur falls
1 darkslick shores
3 island
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 thundermaw hellkite
1 spellskite
1 gurmag angler
1 murderous cut
1 negate
2 dispel
2 engineered explosives
2 monastery seige
2 rakdos charm
2 duress
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
1 Spell Snare
4 Deprive
2 Terminate
2 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Electrolyze
4 Thought Scour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Lands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Combust
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Flashfreeze
2 Blood Moon
3 Monastery Siege
4 delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
3 snapcaster mage
3 tasigur, the golden fang
Instants (20)
2 spell snare
1 deprive
2 mana leak
2 remand
1 terminate
2 murderous cut
4 lightning bolt
2 electrolyze
1 darkblast
3 thought scour
4 gitaxian probe
4 serum visions
Lands (18)
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 steam vents
2 watery grave
3 island
1 swamp
1 darkslick shores
1 sulfur falls
2 engineered explosives
2 blood moon
1 dispel
2 flashfreeze
1 negate
2 monastery siege
1 terminate
2 duress
1 rakdos charm
1 shatterstorm
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
2 Murderous Cut
2 Electrolyze
1 Terminate
1 Forked Bolt
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Grim Lavamancer
If I wanted to try a maindeck Darkblast, I would probably replace the Forked Bolt. I decided to cut the sword for a second Electrolyze too.
I haven't gotten a sideboard yet, so this is untested but this is what I'm aiming for:
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Deathmark
2 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
2 Combust
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
My MTGO version plays Deprive over Remand as I haven't spent much on it so far, and I haven't missed Remand a single bit. I think 3 Mana Leak and 2 Deprive is the way to go, and give you an even mix of counters for early and late game use. Remand andManaleak both drops off in value a lot as the game progresses. Also, if you wantto shore up any weaknesses against Abzan, Deprive over Remand is a good place to start. The bounce land drawback is sometimes not even significant since you don't have a land drop anyway
Also, 4 Monastery Siege is A LOT
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/new-technology-lion-mastery-and-curse/
Thoughts on the Curse? IMO mana cost too restrictive. 5 mana and 2 of those in our tertiary color
In my list above, I'm cutting the sleight of hand For the 3rd remand. Reason should be fairly obvious and I dont know why I didnt think it before but sleight sucks so more action that draws a card still is much better
Also I'm liking these lists. Its good to see everyone moving away from maindeck discard like in the lists that were showing up a month ago.
I will be bringing this to a pptq on saturday. I'll type a report saturday night or sunday hopefully. So lets hope I get a good result and its worth the read (Not to mention the 2 and a half hour drive). I have a lot of homework this weekend but I'm sure I'll find the time
Looks like UR Delver finally got their out to Tasigur, Rhino and Goyf
Silumgar's Command sucks, fingers crossed for Kolaghan's Command
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598510-grixis-delver
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