Could you test Leyline vs Burn? I think we'd all be very interested in the stats vs Nyx.
That should be doable. I'll probably make some clear parameters on when we mull for Leyline. Something like this:
7 cards: If Leyline, keep. If no Leyline, mull unless hand has Syphon and/or BB, and 2+ selective discard/removal and a clock.
6 cards: If Leyline, keep. If no Leyline, mull unless hand has above.
5 cards: Keep no matter what.
I dont understand the logic of being afraid to run a full set of Leylines to crush burn. If it did nothing else for me, that would be more than enough. Its just like Bridge in that it must be dealt with in order for certain plans to proceed. Bridge + Leyline = lockout. Leyline also has some splash hate against random decks that sometimes crop up like ad nauseum and gifts combo. It used to be great against storm, but I dont trust it as completely as I once did there as they tend to run bounce more often now. I also do not buy the "they will remove it with white disenchants" argument. First they are not expecting it from a mono black deck. Second they need to be racing us, and utility cards slow them down. Burn's best approach is just to win first...you know like how they always try to do. If you think bridge is bad here its because you havent locked people out with bridge and Leyline. This is an old trick that I used to use as a primary lock tool in my RW lockdown deck. Oddly the RW lockdown deck is what 8Rack evolved out of for me as I started experimenting with different colors while still using that same lockout.
@DM- No I wasnt siding out for the nyx vs GoyfTwin, I was using the (crappy) list by that IQ top 16 winner. I was intending to show how it was bad in the video, but it ended up working as a great alt win con vs GoyfTwin. The thing is, I dont need any more help there, the only thing I was proving is just how bad Twin is vs hand control in general.
Bridge is often too slow for Storm, regardless of bounce, and if we run Blight, there's even less reason to use it. Burn sides it in regardless for Bridge and Rack. Only some lists run Wear/Tear - most seems to run Destructive Revelry these days, and some run Smash to Smithereens. I have locked them out with Bridge and Leyline - my issue is that now especially, it's not consistent.
This is prolly one of those times where I should just nod my head and agree with you guys about Nyx and just let you get bored with it. It's cute like Tombstalker and it has some tactical applications, but its not unlocking any doors that were previously closed off to us. If you need ktk to mechanically grind you off some data sets to confirm that then so be it. If Nyx blows up affinity then you prolly have a case for both Nyx and Leyline in your side, but I dont really see them caring too much. Really though IIRC you have always jsut had a hard time with Burn. You have never gotten behind Leyline, and looked for things like Sun Droplet to help you out. To each his own, but hopefully you will reconsider if the "data sets" confirm what I am saying.
@ktk- make sure you test on the draw vs on the play. I like to be on the draw vs Burn but others dont. On the draw, even if I drop leyline T0 and they open with T1 Wear, I am pretty ok with that. they have 5 cards left over, at least 1 of which you can assume is land. They are already in danger of just running out of gas. If they are using destructive revelry I will have at least 1 turn to get rid of it potentially, which will let leyline buy me some time. Bridge is not useless against Burn either, but you may not want a full 4 copies of it. I could see siding 1-2 out for 1-2 smother / other removal / siphon life. I am actually really happy to see destructive revelry coming into fashion over ancient grudge. Small zoo with ancient grudge is a nightmare.
According to this link Destructive revelry is now in 93% of zoo decks, but only 50% of Burn decks. So roughly half of them are running the card at 1-3 max sideboard slots. Then you have to assume that not everyone will even side it in against mono black... Sorry but I like my real world odds here regardless of what your tests may show.
Leyline has been good to me sometimes and I've used it for lack of better options, but I've never liked the card a lot even after playing with it extensively. I don't consider myself biased against it - I'll play whatever gets me the most wins, I just really don't think Leyline is it. If the data proves me wrong then I may switch back to Leyline (Nyx usage vs other decks must also be considered). You originally suggested Sun Droplet - I tested it and ultimately was much happier with Leyline.
The 93% figure is for Standard. 50% (actually 53%, and even that's probably not accurate from what I understand of MTG data sites) is plenty enough reason for me to reconsider Leyline. In my experience, they always bring in artifact and/or enchantment destruction. If it's not always, it's so close it's insignificant.
According to this link Destructive revelry is now in 93% of zoo decks, but only 50% of Burn decks. So roughly half of them are running the card at 1-3 max sideboard slots. Then you have to assume that not everyone will even side it in against mono black... Sorry but I like my real world odds here regardless of what your tests may show.
Actually according to that link its in 93% of Standard RG decks. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-burn-16304#online shows thats being played as a 4 of in 73% of modern burn decks... so even if we average these numbers out thats a lot of revelries. They will certainly bring it in when you show racks, afflictions, and bridges as thats tons of targets for them.
Look at game 1 in this vid, I completely commit to Pack Rat as the win con (primarily because I draw no others) and within 2 turns it takes over the game.
I think that Leyline of Sanctity is a classic crutch and trap card. It is not as powerful as it was pre-khans against red decks. We have to remember there is a distinction between Burn and RedDeckWins. Leyline works extraordinarily well against burn and well against RedDeckWins. But, today's decks are better than both as they have splashed to include other critical win-assist cards, i.e. Destructive Revelry and Wear/Tear. It was just cited that revelry is 50% of burn decks. What about wear/tear? What's their appearance rate?
Further, I think it's dangerous to believe that these cards won't come in against a black deck. Consider how a burn player views us after playing game 1. He knows a black deck has two forms of resources: Black and Artifact, that's it. So, if I am a burn player, and I see that a dude is running a mono-black deck - that is pretty obviously a rack deck ((c'mon, the shark fin of a black rack deck rides pretty high above the waves these days, i.e. the swimmers can all see what you are)), then I am definitely bringing in cards (revelry/wear-tear) that will negate a whole segment of your resources (artifacts). So, it's fair to assume that these spoiler cards are coming in. They are instants and will be fired off upon being drawn. Your leyline is already on the board, and you'll never get another one. That's IF you even get one in the first place: 48.5% chance.
As for 'playing it right', Memorylapse just said that he doubts ktkenshinx is playing his 8rack deck right......and, yet, Memorylapse says the correct strategy against today's Red-Burn decks is to play 2nd against them. All due respect, but that spun my head around. I gotta believe that Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil and Grim Lavamancer would thank you for that decision. And, it's fair to note, none of them care about Leyline of Sanctity. Now, Nyxathid on the other hand....
There is no distinction - all of the lists run about the same number of creatures. RDW is a Standard term - it's more appropriate because Standard decks have less burn spells and more creatures.
Yes, Wear//Tear must be considered too. The link on that site for the card doesn't work, though.
Agreed on playing second, and the creatures. Creatures are the reason to play first - T1 Guide/Spear/Lavamancer drastically improves their win rate.
Agree with Destroyermaker: there really is no distinction now. There used to be a difference between red burn and rdw, and, in fairness to memorylapse, it also did used to make some amount of sense to go 2nd against a pure burn deck as they would start out with one card less in their hand (that much closer to rack damage range), and they don't care about ramp or landing early permanents, like creatures, that can deliver cumulative damage.
On the flipside, I think it's wholly unfair to label the deck by pacmansmash as 'crappy', memorylapse. It top 16ed an IQ. It's got some novel synergies. It's different, and it demonstrated itself to be the exact opposite of 'crappy'. It won. It was the meta-assassin from the shadows. Perhaps folks thought, 'oh, this is 8rack, and then got smashed in the face by a nyxathid when they freely threw out their creature kill cards. The more I think about it, the more I think that Pacmansmash had it backwards: Ensnaring Bridge should be in the main and Nyxathid should be the 'surprise' sideboard swap, but again, I haven't tested it enough. Don't be so quick to quash novel ideas. All good deck tech and concepts started out as being laughed at.
So, anyhoo, yeah, "Burn" is the commonplace term for a Modern deck that uses burn, creatures, and some splash.
I don't see ML's logic on the Enchant/Artifact removal. If I'm playing 8 Rack I automatically assume that there will be 12 targets for my removal. Who in the world wouldn't side in their hate? Since Affinity is a thing you have overlapping match-ups that only increase the amount of possible hate. Honestly people have less hate for a 7/7 than they do an enchantment or artifact.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Lost to Amulet in the daily - bad hand game 1 + Leyline game 2. Leyline is a bigger problem in their deck vs us than others because our Rat isn't great against them and Nyx is awful if they have Leyline out (and even if not, it's not great). I think Rat is the best shot but it's pretty underwhelming overall. I expect the matchup to be a lot more common now because of the two high place finishes for it at PTFRF. Any ideas on what we should do about it, if anything? If nothing, how should we board? My feeling is drop a Rack for an extra Rat, but I'm open to ideas.
Lost to Amulet in the daily - bad hand game 1 + Leyline game 2. Leyline is a bigger problem in their deck vs us than others because our Rat isn't great against them and Nyx is awful if they have Leyline out (and even if not, it's not great). I think Rat is the best shot but it's pretty underwhelming overall. I expect the matchup to be a lot more common now because of the two high place finishes for it at PTFRF. Any ideas on what we should do about it, if anything? If nothing, how should we board? My feeling is drop a Rack for an extra Rat, but I'm open to ideas.
Shadow of Doubt feels a bit narrow, but Fulminator mage should do some good work.
I don't see ML's logic on the Enchant/Artifact removal. If I'm playing 8 Rack I automatically assume that there will be 12 targets for my removal. Who in the world wouldn't side in their hate? Since Affinity is a thing you have overlapping match-ups that only increase the amount of possible hate. Honestly people have less hate for a 7/7 than they do an enchantment or artifact.
Well red decks have less hate for it sure. Black and white decks are a diff story. My point in all of this is trying to find out what decks Nyx is good against that we are currently bad at. OTHER than red burn, which people for some reason have a problem with, what decks do we need him for? If the answer is none then hes out for me, but can be put in the same category as Tombstalker as a tactical sideboard card. If you wanna go ahead and drop him for Leyline or vice versa I dont really see much of a big deal either way TBH. I like Leyline, always have and probably always will. I know how to aggressively mulligan though, and some folks cant/wont do that. Pick your best play style I guess is the moral here.
I don't see ML's logic on the Enchant/Artifact removal. If I'm playing 8 Rack I automatically assume that there will be 12 targets for my removal. Who in the world wouldn't side in their hate? Since Affinity is a thing you have overlapping match-ups that only increase the amount of possible hate. Honestly people have less hate for a 7/7 than they do an enchantment or artifact.
Well red decks have less hate for it sure. Black and white decks are a diff story. My point in all of this is trying to find out what decks Nyx is good against that we are currently bad at. OTHER than red burn, which people for some reason have a problem with, what decks do we need him for? If the answer is none then hes out for me, but can be put in the same category as Tombstalker as a tactical sideboard card. If you wanna go ahead and drop him for Leyline or vice versa I dont really see much of a big deal either way TBH. I like Leyline, always have and probably always will. I know how to aggressively mulligan though, and some folks cant/wont do that. Pick your best play style I guess is the moral here.
Yeah, I can agree with that. I really like Necroplasm against the Junk decks. Wipes up souls, keeps coming back after removal, but hey people don't like it.
Nyx to me seems like a great choice for Rack's 9-12. I think people are looking at it wrong. I mean really Nihilith is also a card that you could play but you need to jump through some hoops.
In testing I have found Tasigur to be great sometimes and a real worthless pile others. I love his p/t at 1 mana. Since I'm rocking Smallpox, he comes out really fast. Issue with him becomes the activated ability. I'm not sure that getting into either green or blue is correct but he has done some good things. In contrast to Tombstalker, which has the whole BB cost min, Tasigur is a reliable 1 mana cc for most games.
I think we need to look at options, as right now the deck is out of position in the meta. I have looked at Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime as a way to reliably get peoples hands empty. Green gives the deck mana to activate Tasigur and also gives the option to play Goyf and Abrupt Deccay.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I don't see ML's logic on the Enchant/Artifact removal. If I'm playing 8 Rack I automatically assume that there will be 12 targets for my removal. Who in the world wouldn't side in their hate? Since Affinity is a thing you have overlapping match-ups that only increase the amount of possible hate. Honestly people have less hate for a 7/7 than they do an enchantment or artifact.
Well red decks have less hate for it sure. Black and white decks are a diff story. My point in all of this is trying to find out what decks Nyx is good against that we are currently bad at. OTHER than red burn, which people for some reason have a problem with, what decks do we need him for? If the answer is none then hes out for me, but can be put in the same category as Tombstalker as a tactical sideboard card. If you wanna go ahead and drop him for Leyline or vice versa I dont really see much of a big deal either way TBH. I like Leyline, always have and probably always will. I know how to aggressively mulligan though, and some folks cant/wont do that. Pick your best play style I guess is the moral here.
Yeah, I can agree with that. I really like Necroplasm against the Junk decks. Wipes up souls, keeps coming back after removal, but hey people don't like it.
Nyx to me seems like a great choice for Rack's 9-12. I think people are looking at it wrong. I mean really Nihilith is also a card that you could play but you need to jump through some hoops.
In testing I have found Tasigur to be great sometimes and a real worthless pile others. I love his p/t at 1 mana. Since I'm rocking Smallpox, he comes out really fast. Issue with him becomes the activated ability. I'm not sure that getting into either green or blue is correct but he has done some good things. In contrast to Tombstalker, which has the whole BB cost min, Tasigur is a reliable 1 mana cc for most games.
I think we need to look at options, as right now the deck is out of position in the meta. I have looked at Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime as a way to reliably get peoples hands empty. Green gives the deck mana to activate Tasigur and also gives the option to play Goyf and Abrupt Deccay.
Been wanting to try the Loam combo for a while. Does it work well? Seems like a decent amount of the overall discard could be cut, as one good instance would empty even a decent sized hand, so I'd imagine it would shape into a different kind of deck. Opening up artifact and enchanment removal would hardly be a bad thing.
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The answer is purple because ice cream has no bones.
Nyxathid and Tombstalker are not the same thing and can't be easily lumped together as sideboard options to be incorporated in a classic 8rack shell in what is being purported to be somewhat of a whimsical addition. I wish Smashpacman would come back, and speak a little more about how Nyxathid interacts, or get a little more insight from other folks that have the time to test him out on the track.
Nyxathid was specifically bred for a deck that has 4 blightning and, to a lesser degree, direct damage like 4 lightning bolt --- yet, this is a critical inclusion, like 4 terminate, as this allowed for the total absence of Ensnaring Bridge. I don't believe nyxathid's power is as unmitigated without that kind of double-shot, scorched earth hand kill. The draw engines in modern are dead (treasure cruise and birthing pod [a non-drawing board state accelerator]). So, I actually believe that Black Rack decks are well positioned in the meta. It's just a case of proactive or reactive and the right tools for the job. What I don't think needs any further testing is the classic 8rack deck that hasn't put up a top 16 in a premier event (ever) with haphazard plug-ins of cards like tombstalker and nyxathid. Work some new angles, develop different Black Rack archetypes, and specifically look to overcome the unseen failings and exploit the unrevealed weaknesses of the current gamescape.
Typically Loam decks dive really deep into what they can do with loam instead of just an engine for raven's crime. Post the list you're thinking and we should be able to direct you a little better.
At least one of the lists runs Racks. I'm open to revisiting whether a list like BatHickey's is acceptable to discuss here, but not much has changed (just the Rack count requirement) so I'm guessing it wouldn't be.
That should be doable. I'll probably make some clear parameters on when we mull for Leyline. Something like this:
7 cards: If Leyline, keep. If no Leyline, mull unless hand has Syphon and/or BB, and 2+ selective discard/removal and a clock.
6 cards: If Leyline, keep. If no Leyline, mull unless hand has above.
5 cards: Keep no matter what.
Bridge is often too slow for Storm, regardless of bounce, and if we run Blight, there's even less reason to use it. Burn sides it in regardless for Bridge and Rack. Only some lists run Wear/Tear - most seems to run Destructive Revelry these days, and some run Smash to Smithereens. I have locked them out with Bridge and Leyline - my issue is that now especially, it's not consistent.
@ktk- make sure you test on the draw vs on the play. I like to be on the draw vs Burn but others dont. On the draw, even if I drop leyline T0 and they open with T1 Wear, I am pretty ok with that. they have 5 cards left over, at least 1 of which you can assume is land. They are already in danger of just running out of gas. If they are using destructive revelry I will have at least 1 turn to get rid of it potentially, which will let leyline buy me some time. Bridge is not useless against Burn either, but you may not want a full 4 copies of it. I could see siding 1-2 out for 1-2 smother / other removal / siphon life. I am actually really happy to see destructive revelry coming into fashion over ancient grudge. Small zoo with ancient grudge is a nightmare.
According to this link Destructive revelry is now in 93% of zoo decks, but only 50% of Burn decks. So roughly half of them are running the card at 1-3 max sideboard slots. Then you have to assume that not everyone will even side it in against mono black... Sorry but I like my real world odds here regardless of what your tests may show.
The 93% figure is for Standard. 50% (actually 53%, and even that's probably not accurate from what I understand of MTG data sites) is plenty enough reason for me to reconsider Leyline. In my experience, they always bring in artifact and/or enchantment destruction. If it's not always, it's so close it's insignificant.
Actually according to that link its in 93% of Standard RG decks.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-burn-16304#online shows thats being played as a 4 of in 73% of modern burn decks... so even if we average these numbers out thats a lot of revelries. They will certainly bring it in when you show racks, afflictions, and bridges as thats tons of targets for them.
How exactly are tests not real world odds???
This BR/Mardu burn deck died out with Deathrite Shaman, and is not the deck we are talking about.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Further, I think it's dangerous to believe that these cards won't come in against a black deck. Consider how a burn player views us after playing game 1. He knows a black deck has two forms of resources: Black and Artifact, that's it. So, if I am a burn player, and I see that a dude is running a mono-black deck - that is pretty obviously a rack deck ((c'mon, the shark fin of a black rack deck rides pretty high above the waves these days, i.e. the swimmers can all see what you are)), then I am definitely bringing in cards (revelry/wear-tear) that will negate a whole segment of your resources (artifacts). So, it's fair to assume that these spoiler cards are coming in. They are instants and will be fired off upon being drawn. Your leyline is already on the board, and you'll never get another one. That's IF you even get one in the first place: 48.5% chance.
As for 'playing it right', Memorylapse just said that he doubts ktkenshinx is playing his 8rack deck right......and, yet, Memorylapse says the correct strategy against today's Red-Burn decks is to play 2nd against them. All due respect, but that spun my head around. I gotta believe that Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil and Grim Lavamancer would thank you for that decision. And, it's fair to note, none of them care about Leyline of Sanctity. Now, Nyxathid on the other hand....
Yes, Wear//Tear must be considered too. The link on that site for the card doesn't work, though.
Agreed on playing second, and the creatures. Creatures are the reason to play first - T1 Guide/Spear/Lavamancer drastically improves their win rate.
On the flipside, I think it's wholly unfair to label the deck by pacmansmash as 'crappy', memorylapse. It top 16ed an IQ. It's got some novel synergies. It's different, and it demonstrated itself to be the exact opposite of 'crappy'. It won. It was the meta-assassin from the shadows. Perhaps folks thought, 'oh, this is 8rack, and then got smashed in the face by a nyxathid when they freely threw out their creature kill cards. The more I think about it, the more I think that Pacmansmash had it backwards: Ensnaring Bridge should be in the main and Nyxathid should be the 'surprise' sideboard swap, but again, I haven't tested it enough. Don't be so quick to quash novel ideas. All good deck tech and concepts started out as being laughed at.
So, anyhoo, yeah, "Burn" is the commonplace term for a Modern deck that uses burn, creatures, and some splash.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Shadow of Doubt feels a bit narrow, but Fulminator mage should do some good work.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
Well red decks have less hate for it sure. Black and white decks are a diff story. My point in all of this is trying to find out what decks Nyx is good against that we are currently bad at. OTHER than red burn, which people for some reason have a problem with, what decks do we need him for? If the answer is none then hes out for me, but can be put in the same category as Tombstalker as a tactical sideboard card. If you wanna go ahead and drop him for Leyline or vice versa I dont really see much of a big deal either way TBH. I like Leyline, always have and probably always will. I know how to aggressively mulligan though, and some folks cant/wont do that. Pick your best play style I guess is the moral here.
Yeah, I can agree with that. I really like Necroplasm against the Junk decks. Wipes up souls, keeps coming back after removal, but hey people don't like it.
Nyx to me seems like a great choice for Rack's 9-12. I think people are looking at it wrong. I mean really Nihilith is also a card that you could play but you need to jump through some hoops.
In testing I have found Tasigur to be great sometimes and a real worthless pile others. I love his p/t at 1 mana. Since I'm rocking Smallpox, he comes out really fast. Issue with him becomes the activated ability. I'm not sure that getting into either green or blue is correct but he has done some good things. In contrast to Tombstalker, which has the whole BB cost min, Tasigur is a reliable 1 mana cc for most games.
I think we need to look at options, as right now the deck is out of position in the meta. I have looked at Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime as a way to reliably get peoples hands empty. Green gives the deck mana to activate Tasigur and also gives the option to play Goyf and Abrupt Deccay.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Been wanting to try the Loam combo for a while. Does it work well? Seems like a decent amount of the overall discard could be cut, as one good instance would empty even a decent sized hand, so I'd imagine it would shape into a different kind of deck. Opening up artifact and enchanment removal would hardly be a bad thing.
Nyxathid was specifically bred for a deck that has 4 blightning and, to a lesser degree, direct damage like 4 lightning bolt --- yet, this is a critical inclusion, like 4 terminate, as this allowed for the total absence of Ensnaring Bridge. I don't believe nyxathid's power is as unmitigated without that kind of double-shot, scorched earth hand kill. The draw engines in modern are dead (treasure cruise and birthing pod [a non-drawing board state accelerator]). So, I actually believe that Black Rack decks are well positioned in the meta. It's just a case of proactive or reactive and the right tools for the job. What I don't think needs any further testing is the classic 8rack deck that hasn't put up a top 16 in a premier event (ever) with haphazard plug-ins of cards like tombstalker and nyxathid. Work some new angles, develop different Black Rack archetypes, and specifically look to overcome the unseen failings and exploit the unrevealed weaknesses of the current gamescape.
I would still be playing racks.
Typically Loam decks dive really deep into what they can do with loam instead of just an engine for raven's crime. Post the list you're thinking and we should be able to direct you a little better.
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact