Regarding more anthems: exactly the role that Sorin and Gideon can play. They're very strong, since you don't get the same feel-bad when playing Intangible Virtue without any token producers.
How many Secure - I believe that the vast majority of Modern decks I've played against lately don't give us enough of a "late game" for Secure the Wastes (or Gideon ) to shine, so I will not be running any this weekend. The creatures other decks have also make the soldiers from Raise the Alarm seem weak unless Intangible Virtue is out, so I'm not playing them either. I will bet that Bitterblossom + removal + life-gain will work out.
Removal - I'm still very fearful of all the Wild Nacatl & Merfolk decks, so I am considering cutting the 3rd Sorin for another removal spell.
24 lands - I really don't want to miss any land drops. I've seen the discussion above about Windbrisk Heights vs. Shambling Vent. Vent didn't work out for me before, but now that I am going to run Dismembers in the main deck (mainly vs Twin), it would be nice to have extra B that doesn't hurt. Flipping an anthem off Heights is awesome... but having an extra way to gain life in a pinch sounds good too. You guys just might have convinced me to put a couple Vents back in.
I agree now that splashing red just for Crumble to Dust is not good. Having Lightning Bolt sounds good too, but I'd rather be able to fetch basics and protect my life total.
Thanks again everyone for all of your thoughts. I'm off to GP Pittsburgh tomorrow, hopefully in time to play a little that night. I'll do what I can with my 2 byes!
Good luck at the GP! I'm excited to hear how it goes. The deck looks sweet.
I have to agree with your assertion that games are too quick for Secure to matter. I'm running 1 of them, and I like how it feels against things like Abzan and Jund where you'll be playing a little longer, but I wouldn't be super pumped to see it against Affinity/Burn.
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What this deck needs to do is to stall when we don't have the optimal hand - a good balance of an anthem, token generators, discard, and removal. I like to treat the 1-2 mana drops as "stalls" basically. Bitterblossom doesn't fulfil that role as well as raise the alarm and it's too slow in the late game.
BB fits the role of "stalling" pretty well in these scenarios, it produces blockers every turn and has the added benefit of being a one time mana investment. I agree that raise the alarm is also a good stalling card but it doesn't fit into the 75 of all BW tokens builds.
It has been discussed in this thread that there are at least two different core approaches to this deck: one that runs 3-4 BB and one that runs 3-4 additional white token generators. Both are viable builds but will change the composition of each deck's 75 accordingly. BB and Lili work really well together, whereas white token generators and honor of the pure pair up nicely. Auriok goes well everywhere right now... but that is besides the point.
So, after testing both types of BW tokens builds extensively I can say in a white token oriented build, jongsl5's statements and assessments hold water. They do not directly correlate with the BB/Lili oriented builds because the cards aren't the same.
What this deck needs to do is to stall when we don't have the optimal hand - a good balance of an anthem, token generators, discard, and removal. I like to treat the 1-2 mana drops as "stalls" basically. Bitterblossom doesn't fulfil that role as well as raise the alarm and it's too slow in the late game.
BB fits the role of "stalling" pretty well in these scenarios, it produces blockers every turn and has the added benefit of being a one time mana investment. I agree that raise the alarm is also a good stalling card but it doesn't fit into the 75 of all BW tokens builds.
It has been discussed in this thread that there are at least two different core approaches to this deck: one that runs 3-4 BB and one that runs 3-4 additional white token generators. Both are viable builds but will change the composition of each deck's 75 accordingly. BB and Lili work really well together, whereas white token generators and honor of the pure pair up nicely. Auriok goes well everywhere right now... but that is besides the point.
So, after testing both types of BW tokens builds extensively I can say in a white token oriented build, jongsl5's statements and assessments hold water. They do not directly correlate with the BB/Lili oriented builds because the cards aren't the same.
Thanks for your comment. The reason why I regarded bitterblossom as a mediocre stalling card (despite a free blocker every turn) is for two reasons: (1) the life loss which is relevant mid-late game and (2) if drawn late, it takes an additional turn for the token to come down. Raise the alarm is an instant (makes it usable) and generates two immediately; combined with bolt, raise the alarm gives me the versatility of being both damage removal and extra token generator for both attacking and blocking.
Raise the alarm is pretty mediocre in some match-ups and it's not the 2-drop this deck deserves but I would run them if you don't run a BB/ Liliana focused build. I think they are not entirely bad however because they're quite good in certain match-ups (jund, junk, tron, etc.)
The point to having 4x Bitterblossom isn't necessarily to put more than one on the field but to improve our chances of having it to put out on the T2 or T3.
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever been sad to have multiples on the field at once. Our lists generally play a lot of MB lifegain effects, and having 2 flying, vigilant 2/2's every turn is something I'm pumped about. I definitely pump the brakes if I'm against Burn et. al. but I absolutely love dropping multiple copies of Blossom.
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I am moving my list back up to 4 BB mainboard, and up to 24 lands. The draws felt clunky and the 1 of ghost quarter hurt more than having 2 with 24 lands.
2 things that I have not seen talked about are : Hangerback walker and Obelisk of Urd. I don't know if hangerback can be worth it but I thought it deserves a mention at least. Granted path to exile is a card but I love the idea of it dieing and us having intangible virtue out it could be a HUGE deterrent for attacking, and if they want to counter that instead of my BB I think thats a job well done.
Obelisk is kind of a pet card but I've seen this card just takeover the game if we see it early enough. Granted its not as good with kolaghan's command around but that could be said about intangible virtue and abrupt decay. So say I work in 1 mainboard do people that would just be a waste?
I've never had a problem moving the deck around with 23 lands. Since the majority of my spells are 3 or less it shouldn't be an issue with 23. But that's just my preference.
It would have to be spirit or fairie. I would pretty much always choose spirits though. Makes spectral and lingering all that more effective. Granted its a 6 drop that you may need to tap out your creatures for (convoke makes this SO much easier to play) for and it may be destroyed by K command, but dang talk about a finisher. That would be insane to drop this THEN drop SORIN. Can you say GG!? I know it's kind of ridiculous and may suck at times but dang that would be hilarious lol I REALLY wanna try it out. And it permanently gets out out of pyroclasm range, which could be HUGE.
It would have to be spirit or fairie. I would pretty much always choose spirits though. Makes spectral and lingering all that more effective. Granted its a 6 drop that you may need to tap out your creatures for (convoke makes this SO much easier to play) for and it may be destroyed by K command, but dang talk about a finisher. That would be insane to drop this THEN drop SORIN. Can you say GG!? I know it's kind of ridiculous and may suck at times but dang that would be hilarious lol I REALLY wanna try it out. And it permanently gets out out of pyroclasm range, which could be HUGE.
Am i the only one interested? lol
Not at all. Obelisk of Urd was a ton of fun to play in my standard b/w warriors deck; I've been trying to work it into my modern builds and b/w tokens has shown the best results. It's possible to cast it on turn 3 and it can be a finisher in the late game.
It would have to be spirit or fairie. I would pretty much always choose spirits though. Makes spectral and lingering all that more effective. Granted its a 6 drop that you may need to tap out your creatures for (convoke makes this SO much easier to play) for and it may be destroyed by K command, but dang talk about a finisher. That would be insane to drop this THEN drop SORIN. Can you say GG!? I know it's kind of ridiculous and may suck at times but dang that would be hilarious lol I REALLY wanna try it out. And it permanently gets out out of pyroclasm range, which could be HUGE.
Am i the only one interested? lol
Not at all. Obelisk of Urd was a ton of fun to play in my standard b/w warriors deck; I've been trying to work it into my modern builds and b/w tokens has shown the best results. It's possible to cast it on turn 3 and it can be a finisher in the late game.
I'm glad to see someone else reaching for the stars lol I will be playtesting it as a 1 of in my list. Probably replacing my zealous persecution 1 of.
I've never had a problem moving the deck around with 23 lands. Since the majority of my spells are 3 or less it shouldn't be an issue with 23. But that's just my preference.
Yup I'm not sure what your build is but I had a hard time reaching 4 consecutively so it's back up for me lol
So I brought BW tokens to a small FNM only 12 players
Round 1 vs Abzan CoCo
Not really anything to say here. Both games were fairly straight forward. Play a bunch of token makers and anthems. Beat face. Just overwhelmed them with tokens. I actually forced them to use Orzhov Pontiff defensively game 2 in order to save his board from Zealous Persecution and this left me free to push harder with the token makers.
1-0
Round 2 vs Elemental Tribal
Game 1 I thoughtseize turn 1 and take their mana dork. I IoK turn 2 and take their other dork. They don't draw a third land.
Game 2 Goes fairly back and forth though I never really feel too pressured. I have out a bitterblossom and 2 virtues so every token I make is a 3/3. I get to Timely for full value and drop 3 3/3s into play. I path their blocker and attack for more than lethal.
2-0
Round 3 vs Green Devotion
Game 1 They had a turn 3 Prime Time into turn 4 Wolfrun for 6 dmg.
Game 2 More or less the same. They flood the board and I don't draw my Hour of Reckoning to save me from Craterhoof.
2-1
Round 4 vs UR Pyromancer
Game 1 Very pack and forth. I have a bunch of pressure from Virtue and token generators. They manage to fog for 2 turns with Cryptic before I manage to take the game
Game 2 The only token maker I draw is Bitterblossom and I get overwhelmed by double Young Pyromancer
Game 3 Opening 7 is 5 lands, 2 Lingering. 6 is 5 cards I really want but the only land is a Windbrisk. 5 is 1 land but if I curve out I'm fine and I don't really want to risk 4 cards. I don't draw the second land until turn 4 and I'm not in the game at all which sucks because both game 1 and 2 were really close and well played by both of us. Its depressing for a match between two skilled players to just end because of mana screw.
2-2
I get 5th place just outside of cashing. I probably should have offered to draw with my round 4 opponent as I would have locked top 4 I just didn't check standings to see if I could.
I tested 1 Shambling Vents over the 4th Windbrisk and honestly I didn't notice a difference. I never activated Vents as I was either casting stuff or just never drew it.
There was at least 1 other person on Green Devotion which I feel is a horrible match up in that they can go over the top really quickly. I'm not really sure what a good card for this match up would be but it seems to be popular at my LGS.
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I am moving my list back up to 4 BB mainboard, and up to 24 lands. The draws felt clunky and the 1 of ghost quarter hurt more than having 2 with 24 lands.
2 things that I have not seen talked about are : Hangerback walker and Obelisk of Urd. I don't know if hangerback can be worth it but I thought it deserves a mention at least. Granted path to exile is a card but I love the idea of it dieing and us having intangible virtue out it could be a HUGE deterrent for attacking, and if they want to counter that instead of my BB I think thats a job well done.
Obelisk is kind of a pet card but I've seen this card just takeover the game if we see it early enough. Granted its not as good with kolaghan's command around but that could be said about intangible virtue and abrupt decay. So say I work in 1 mainboard do people that would just be a waste?
I hope you do well At Pittsburgh Thumbs!
I've been thinking about Hangarback walker. I think it's interesting. I agree that path punishes us, but it could be versatile enough that we could try 1-2. I like that it could double as a mana sink, letting us get a little more efficient with our mana at times, and obviously cracking it for 2-3 vigilant thopters is fun. I'm not crazy about the idea of obelisk, but I can't see any reason not to test it out. I'd be curious what you have to say about it.
I've never had a problem moving the deck around with 23 lands. Since the majority of my spells are 3 or less it shouldn't be an issue with 23. But that's just my preference.
I think that you're correct. I've been running 23 lately and it feels fine, but I'm bumping up the concentration of high cmc cards (Obzedat, Sorin, Gideon) along with cards like Raven's crime. What I've been seeing is that if you're mostly <3 cmc then 23 is where it's at, decks that go a little bigger will want 24.
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Thanks... I just wanted the 14th black mana on turn 1 to cast a discard spell more than I wanted the 21st white source for Spectral Procession, and I was too afraid to run a 2nd Fetid Heath and draw both to start the game.
I just came across this card: Devouring Greed. I think this could be some real interesting tech as a two-off to just finish the game off. Like a four mana triple bolt.
T2: Virtue
T3: Spectral
T4: 6 from attackers, and 8 from Devouring Greed.
I haven't tested this out, but I'm curious if anyone else has tried this before I got at it?
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Good luck at the GP! I'm excited to hear how it goes. The deck looks sweet.
I have to agree with your assertion that games are too quick for Secure to matter. I'm running 1 of them, and I like how it feels against things like Abzan and Jund where you'll be playing a little longer, but I wouldn't be super pumped to see it against Affinity/Burn.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I'll take your word for it. Thanks for your input.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Thanks for your comment. The reason why I regarded bitterblossom as a mediocre stalling card (despite a free blocker every turn) is for two reasons: (1) the life loss which is relevant mid-late game and (2) if drawn late, it takes an additional turn for the token to come down. Raise the alarm is an instant (makes it usable) and generates two immediately; combined with bolt, raise the alarm gives me the versatility of being both damage removal and extra token generator for both attacking and blocking.
Raise the alarm is pretty mediocre in some match-ups and it's not the 2-drop this deck deserves but I would run them if you don't run a BB/ Liliana focused build. I think they are not entirely bad however because they're quite good in certain match-ups (jund, junk, tron, etc.)
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I only have one comment on your deck (other than lack of Auriok Champion, which I think is a house):
You don't need two basic swamps. Two swamps and two vaults do not play very nicely with Spectral
2 things that I have not seen talked about are : Hangerback walker and Obelisk of Urd. I don't know if hangerback can be worth it but I thought it deserves a mention at least. Granted path to exile is a card but I love the idea of it dieing and us having intangible virtue out it could be a HUGE deterrent for attacking, and if they want to counter that instead of my BB I think thats a job well done.
Obelisk is kind of a pet card but I've seen this card just takeover the game if we see it early enough. Granted its not as good with kolaghan's command around but that could be said about intangible virtue and abrupt decay. So say I work in 1 mainboard do people that would just be a waste?
I hope you do well At Pittsburgh Thumbs!
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
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Am i the only one interested? lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Not at all. Obelisk of Urd was a ton of fun to play in my standard b/w warriors deck; I've been trying to work it into my modern builds and b/w tokens has shown the best results. It's possible to cast it on turn 3 and it can be a finisher in the late game.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I'm glad to see someone else reaching for the stars lol I will be playtesting it as a 1 of in my list. Probably replacing my zealous persecution 1 of.
Yup I'm not sure what your build is but I had a hard time reaching 4 consecutively so it's back up for me lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
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Round 1 vs Abzan CoCo
Not really anything to say here. Both games were fairly straight forward. Play a bunch of token makers and anthems. Beat face. Just overwhelmed them with tokens. I actually forced them to use Orzhov Pontiff defensively game 2 in order to save his board from Zealous Persecution and this left me free to push harder with the token makers.
1-0
Round 2 vs Elemental Tribal
Game 1 I thoughtseize turn 1 and take their mana dork. I IoK turn 2 and take their other dork. They don't draw a third land.
Game 2 Goes fairly back and forth though I never really feel too pressured. I have out a bitterblossom and 2 virtues so every token I make is a 3/3. I get to Timely for full value and drop 3 3/3s into play. I path their blocker and attack for more than lethal.
2-0
Round 3 vs Green Devotion
Game 1 They had a turn 3 Prime Time into turn 4 Wolfrun for 6 dmg.
Game 2 More or less the same. They flood the board and I don't draw my Hour of Reckoning to save me from Craterhoof.
2-1
Round 4 vs UR Pyromancer
Game 1 Very pack and forth. I have a bunch of pressure from Virtue and token generators. They manage to fog for 2 turns with Cryptic before I manage to take the game
Game 2 The only token maker I draw is Bitterblossom and I get overwhelmed by double Young Pyromancer
Game 3 Opening 7 is 5 lands, 2 Lingering. 6 is 5 cards I really want but the only land is a Windbrisk. 5 is 1 land but if I curve out I'm fine and I don't really want to risk 4 cards. I don't draw the second land until turn 4 and I'm not in the game at all which sucks because both game 1 and 2 were really close and well played by both of us. Its depressing for a match between two skilled players to just end because of mana screw.
2-2
I get 5th place just outside of cashing. I probably should have offered to draw with my round 4 opponent as I would have locked top 4 I just didn't check standings to see if I could.
I tested 1 Shambling Vents over the 4th Windbrisk and honestly I didn't notice a difference. I never activated Vents as I was either casting stuff or just never drew it.
There was at least 1 other person on Green Devotion which I feel is a horrible match up in that they can go over the top really quickly. I'm not really sure what a good card for this match up would be but it seems to be popular at my LGS.
-Anonymous
I've been thinking about Hangarback walker. I think it's interesting. I agree that path punishes us, but it could be versatile enough that we could try 1-2. I like that it could double as a mana sink, letting us get a little more efficient with our mana at times, and obviously cracking it for 2-3 vigilant thopters is fun. I'm not crazy about the idea of obelisk, but I can't see any reason not to test it out. I'd be curious what you have to say about it.
I think that you're correct. I've been running 23 lately and it feels fine, but I'm bumping up the concentration of high cmc cards (Obzedat, Sorin, Gideon) along with cards like Raven's crime. What I've been seeing is that if you're mostly <3 cmc then 23 is where it's at, decks that go a little bigger will want 24.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
T2: Virtue
T3: Spectral
T4: 6 from attackers, and 8 from Devouring Greed.
I haven't tested this out, but I'm curious if anyone else has tried this before I got at it?
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG