I tested Bitterblossom quite a bit before MM2 was announced, and I'm a pretty big fan of it, especially with Auriok Champion on the board. Getting a free token on the board each turn allows me to focus on how to optimally play my opponent's deck, and it takes some of the focus off of developing my own board. Knowing that I will likely be getting another token on upkeep, I'm more likely to be less aggressive, leaving land untapped for a larger Secure the Wastes or instant speed removal. If your deck has to race in a matchup, it might seem a bit slow, but I played a match where I was able to withstand the Annihilator trigger from Emrakul, the Aeons Torn between some tokens, BB itself, and lands on the table. On my turn, I attacked back with Zealous Persecution pump on my remaining tokens for the win. You might argue that I could've had that without playing BB, but I'm not so sure. Being able to sac BB to annihilator turned out to be pretty sweet. What is your decklist? You might just prefer a different style and prefer not to play BB, and I don't know if there is a consensus on it right now. For my play style, I'm glad that my friends and I found a couple in our MM2 pack wars, and now I can actually play them in Modern.
Second, i would like to say i love @Trapped deck list... i run a similar one, but instead of 3 windbrisk and 2 chapels, i choose to play 3 chapels and only 2 windbrisks. Can i ask you why you cut the hero of bladehold? other than that i really like the hour of reckoning SB, its a great idea, however not sure if its to hard to cast but i could test it myself.
Twice, this week I have drawn the triple Isolated Chapel hand. Never again. I'm trying to max out on fetches and maybe even the shockland, just to guarantee that never happens. Before I played with the third Windbrisk Heights, I felt that the deck flooded too often. Heights completely changes that. Essentially, it says Scry 4, except you put the three that you don't want on bottom and one under your land. I've noticed that often I put one awkward card to the bottom, two lands to the bottom, and grab something decent enough.
As for Hero of Bladehold, I never cut, because I never ran him. I wouldn't want him maindeck turning on spot removal and I need to many spots against combo decks post-board to waste the slots on him. I'm sure that he helps us race combo, but he still doesn't win by turn 4 so we can't just race combo and he doesn't contribute to disrupting them
Third, i sure want (like @Adams) to hear about the 2 vs 3 vs 4 bitterblossons MB, and if the 1xFulminator mage is doing stuff for you after SB, cuz its sort of an expensive card to make an investment.
I often win games that I draw double Bitterblossom, but playing online BB isn't great against burn and so I've never bumped up to the fourth one. That being said, if I had the fourth, I would test it in paper. My list runs seven ways for the life gain to not matter, with Vault, Sorin, and Champion. I always feel like Bitterblossom is amazing, and wouldn't play this deck without it. Fulminator Mage is a concession that Tron and Bloom are unbeatable for the deck and so just trying to help in that matchup. I'm almost considering running Hero's Downfall to hit Karn and Ugin, and Primeval Titan. It would be additional removal against Infect and against Jace, Architect of Thought if you see him post-board. Fulminator isn't worth what it does, but I see that deck online too often to not try something slowing it down.
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I do think one's choice in builds informs that a bit too. At least one person on here has said that Abzan is impossible or burn is impossible. I think that has more to do with their choice in builds (control or aggro) instead of a straight up good or bad. Ageless, are you going with Bitterblossom or Raise the Alarm?
You need 3 Duress to have any chance to beat decks like Storm. They also swap out rather evenly with Thoughtseize against Burn. Could probably be replaced by some other combo hoser depending on your meta. Like Liliana, for instance.
My opinion on IcingInferno's matchup summary, Bloom titan is worse than RG Tron. Both are bad marchups. Burn is a good matchup with Champion, Sorin. And Vault. Jund is a good matchup, while Abzan is a bit more difficult depending on the particular builds.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
What are people's general thoughts on liliana? I've been running between 1 and 3 and she seems.... ok... but I seem to win more often the games I dont see her, I thought our top decks would be better than most other decks but I wonder if it would be better to just always use her slot for targeted discard..
The most notably absent card is spectral proseccion, I sometimes would not have triple white t3 and felt the instant speed of midnight haunting would help vs control.
I would play white fetches before playing black off color fetches. Flooded Strand, in particular, for budget reasons. Liliana is worth running, but I think it is just out of the board.
Spectral will make Windbrisk Heights better. That third token is noticeably good in a lot of situations.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Just started playing BW tokens and was using the list from page 104, post #2599. However, I have made a few changes since playing it over the past few days, especially to the sideboard.
I cut a Secure the Waste and Vault of the Archangel from the main board and moved a Timely Reinforcements and a Zealous Persecution from the sideboard. Secure just sits in hand too often and replaced it with another Timely since the meta is getting more aggressive and bw tokens is more of a control deck. Cut to 23 lands since being flooded happens too often it seems. I also added a Bojuka Bog to the main in place of a Windbrisk Heights for exiling graves especially against Goyf and added an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth since I'm now running 3x Fulminator Mage and 1x Liliana in the side. Mana base will get better after I add 4x Marsh Flats and 2 Fetid Heaths that are on the way. However, in my sideboard is where the real changes have been made:
By adding Suppression Field, a third Fulminator Mage, and a Dictate of Erebos I feel like this gives BW Tokens a better chance against Tron, our worst match up. Suppression field slows down the use of the artifacts that search for their lands, Karn activations, and Ugin activations unless they pay 2 extra, while the 3 Fulminator Mages destroy their lands to keep them from assembling tron. Still thinking about adding a Surgical Extration to use with Fulminator Mage after destroying tron lands to cut them completely off from tron, but haven't decided yet. Suppression field is also very good against Affinity, Planeswalkers, and Inkmoth or Blinkmoth Nexus and other activations. As more of a control deck, I feel BW tokens needs this.
I was also looking for a card other than Devour Flesh that can kill an Emrakul at instant speed, but I did not want to allow the opponent to gain 15 life from doing so. In came Dictate of Erebos. It can actually kill an Emrakul when opponents enter combat since we can just sac tokens to the annihilator triggers if we have any out (which we should). Hopefully at that point we have enough tokens to sacrifice to allow us to keep enough land permanents and allow us to somehow get back in the game. Bogles, another bad matchup for bw tokens, is another matchup where I feel Dictate of Erebos could shine. Other possibilities for Dictate are against Goyf, Abzan, or other aggro decks when on the defense and we're going into chump blocking mode. Idk, I could be wrong, but feel this gives BW tokens better flexibility in our bad match ups against Tron and bogles, and in mirror match ups. Thoughts?
That is an odd decklist. It has only 9 ways to get turn 1 discard and is running a total of 11 Discard effects mainboard. Not sure what the function of Flagstones are, I think having other land like windbrisks, other fetch lands, a caves of koilos or a swamp are all better choices. Although you can't argue with results. Good job to the guy that pulled it off, the only real complaint I have is with the manabase, that thing does look quite ugly.
That's true, didn't actually notice the lack of Planeswalkers. Tidehollow has definitely fallen out of favour with many of us, but I would say it's still an option for the deck. Just doesn't surprise me to see it as it's part of what is considered "the norm" for BW tokens.
Well, remember that Wescoe argued about 18 months ago against the inclusion of any walkers in the deck because they slowed it down. I noted this a while back on here that, depending upon the meta, walkers are not always the best approach. That was before Sorin, SV though. I think that Sorin is a solid card though. However, if I was really going for an even more aggro build, then I would run Raise the Alarm, Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, and 4 of Secure the Wastes plus anthems, discard, and removal. In the side, then maybe include some utility such as Sorin.
Having said all of this, I think most of the deck lists we are toying with here are good. I don't think there are better cards. Shoot, I am even taking out my Hero of Bladeholds for Secure the Wastes.
I'm gonna test the Dictate of Erebos tonight. Hoping to bring it in against Esper Mentor or Abzan Liege.
Suppression Field isn't asymmetric enough for us to warrant being used in the deck. I've considered it.
The green splash for Gavony isn't worth it.
Beat Abzan and Grixis Twin tonight, with a loss to wonky UR Delver build. Four maindeck Vapor Snag, at least two Cryptic, and two Shackles in board.
Dictate is cute, but it doesn't shore up the bad matchups in any way. I ran a fourth Bitterblossom for the first time ever. Lost two games to BB trigger... I've lost to it four times in the previous two months. Seems not great if opponents have ways of keeping you off Sorin. Final sideboard for tomorrow:
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Go for the Throat
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Hour of Reckoning
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I'm gonna test the Dictate of Erebos tonight. Hoping to bring it in against Esper Mentor or Abzan Liege.
Suppression Field isn't asymmetric enough for us to warrant being used in the deck. I've considered it.
The green splash for Gavony isn't worth it.
Beat Abzan and Grixis Twin tonight, with a loss to wonky UR Delver build. Four maindeck Vapor Snag, at least two Cryptic, and two Shackles in board.
Dictate is cute, but it doesn't shore up the bad matchups in any way. I ran a fourth Bitterblossom for the first time ever. Lost two games to BB trigger... I've lost to it four times in the previous two months. Seems not great if opponents have ways of keeping you off Sorin. Final sideboard for tomorrow:
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Go for the Throat
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Hour of Reckoning
The only bad matchup I think Dictate is good against is Tron. That said, I've really enjoyed it against against the more fair/midrange decks (particularly ones with Seige Rhino) since it just stomps on their face instead of making it take an eternity of top-deck wars to grind them out.
Only thing I don't like about this general/stock list is the Flagstones. Manabase otherwise seems normal. Rest of the deck is pretty typical.
I just noticed the lack of Auriok Champion and Sorin SV, as well as the omittance of Spellskite. Also, from what I had gleaned from discussions here and on reddit, Tidehollow Sculler was considered suboptimal, to say the least...
The more you're in an aggro-tempo build, the better Tidehollow is, probably.
Can't seem to beat Jund/Abzan builds with Collected Company.
I bring in removal and discard, he just still outvalues me a million to none. Birds into Hierarch into Company, that's it.
Suggestions?
When I play Junk Company I really hate to see Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage with both having pros and cons. I guess it depends which card is more effective for the rest of your meta.
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Modern: BW Tokens, BW Deadguy Ale,RWG Burn, GBW Kitchen Company
How much better is the Tron match-up post-board with Fulminators? I know it improves it, but does it improve it enough. I don't have Fulminator Mages right now, but I'd go get them in a heart beat if those of you using them think it gives us the best shot against tron.
Also, I think the Brimaz, King of Oreskos or Hero of Bladehold is an underrated sideboard plan. I've seen players at my store use it to great effect when their opponents board out 1-for-1 removal, thoughts on this?
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Modern: WUBRGHumansWUBRG
EDH: WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG UGEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG
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I tested Bitterblossom quite a bit before MM2 was announced, and I'm a pretty big fan of it, especially with Auriok Champion on the board. Getting a free token on the board each turn allows me to focus on how to optimally play my opponent's deck, and it takes some of the focus off of developing my own board. Knowing that I will likely be getting another token on upkeep, I'm more likely to be less aggressive, leaving land untapped for a larger Secure the Wastes or instant speed removal. If your deck has to race in a matchup, it might seem a bit slow, but I played a match where I was able to withstand the Annihilator trigger from Emrakul, the Aeons Torn between some tokens, BB itself, and lands on the table. On my turn, I attacked back with Zealous Persecution pump on my remaining tokens for the win. You might argue that I could've had that without playing BB, but I'm not so sure. Being able to sac BB to annihilator turned out to be pretty sweet. What is your decklist? You might just prefer a different style and prefer not to play BB, and I don't know if there is a consensus on it right now. For my play style, I'm glad that my friends and I found a couple in our MM2 pack wars, and now I can actually play them in Modern.
As for Hero of Bladehold, I never cut, because I never ran him. I wouldn't want him maindeck turning on spot removal and I need to many spots against combo decks post-board to waste the slots on him. I'm sure that he helps us race combo, but he still doesn't win by turn 4 so we can't just race combo and he doesn't contribute to disrupting them
I often win games that I draw double Bitterblossom, but playing online BB isn't great against burn and so I've never bumped up to the fourth one. That being said, if I had the fourth, I would test it in paper. My list runs seven ways for the life gain to not matter, with Vault, Sorin, and Champion. I always feel like Bitterblossom is amazing, and wouldn't play this deck without it. Fulminator Mage is a concession that Tron and Bloom are unbeatable for the deck and so just trying to help in that matchup. I'm almost considering running Hero's Downfall to hit Karn and Ugin, and Primeval Titan. It would be additional removal against Infect and against Jace, Architect of Thought if you see him post-board. Fulminator isn't worth what it does, but I see that deck online too often to not try something slowing it down.
It also depends on your build. Auriok champion helps our resilience against abzan for example.
Even
Bad
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord UB
R Godo, Bandit Warlord R
My opinion on IcingInferno's matchup summary, Bloom titan is worse than RG Tron. Both are bad marchups. Burn is a good matchup with Champion, Sorin. And Vault. Jund is a good matchup, while Abzan is a bit more difficult depending on the particular builds.
2 bloodstained mire
3 vault of the archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 godless shrine
3 isolated chapel
3 plains
2 Swamp
1 urborg
3 inquestion of kozilek
4 path to exile
1 Dismember
4 lingering souls
2 Secure the Wastes
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 midnight haunting
4 bitterblossom
4 intangible virtue
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 liliana of the veil
2 Auriok Champion
The most notably absent card is spectral proseccion, I sometimes would not have triple white t3 and felt the instant speed of midnight haunting would help vs control.
Spectral will make Windbrisk Heights better. That third token is noticeably good in a lot of situations.
2x Auriok Champion
Enchantment:
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Bitterblossom
Instant:
1x Dismember
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
1x Murderous Cut
1x Zealous Persecution
Planeswalker:
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorcery:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Godless Shrine
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Sundering Growth
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Duress
2x Suppression Field
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Liliana of the Veil
I cut a Secure the Waste and Vault of the Archangel from the main board and moved a Timely Reinforcements and a Zealous Persecution from the sideboard. Secure just sits in hand too often and replaced it with another Timely since the meta is getting more aggressive and bw tokens is more of a control deck. Cut to 23 lands since being flooded happens too often it seems. I also added a Bojuka Bog to the main in place of a Windbrisk Heights for exiling graves especially against Goyf and added an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth since I'm now running 3x Fulminator Mage and 1x Liliana in the side. Mana base will get better after I add 4x Marsh Flats and 2 Fetid Heaths that are on the way. However, in my sideboard is where the real changes have been made:
Old SB:
2x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Hour of Reckoning
1x Disenchant
1x Go for the Throat
1x Zealous Persecution
New SB:
2x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Suppression Field
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sundering Growth
1x Dictate of Erebos
2x Duress
2x Rest in Peace
By adding Suppression Field, a third Fulminator Mage, and a Dictate of Erebos I feel like this gives BW Tokens a better chance against Tron, our worst match up. Suppression field slows down the use of the artifacts that search for their lands, Karn activations, and Ugin activations unless they pay 2 extra, while the 3 Fulminator Mages destroy their lands to keep them from assembling tron. Still thinking about adding a Surgical Extration to use with Fulminator Mage after destroying tron lands to cut them completely off from tron, but haven't decided yet. Suppression field is also very good against Affinity, Planeswalkers, and Inkmoth or Blinkmoth Nexus and other activations. As more of a control deck, I feel BW tokens needs this.
I was also looking for a card other than Devour Flesh that can kill an Emrakul at instant speed, but I did not want to allow the opponent to gain 15 life from doing so. In came Dictate of Erebos. It can actually kill an Emrakul when opponents enter combat since we can just sac tokens to the annihilator triggers if we have any out (which we should). Hopefully at that point we have enough tokens to sacrifice to allow us to keep enough land permanents and allow us to somehow get back in the game. Bogles, another bad matchup for bw tokens, is another matchup where I feel Dictate of Erebos could shine. Other possibilities for Dictate are against Goyf, Abzan, or other aggro decks when on the defense and we're going into chump blocking mode. Idk, I could be wrong, but feel this gives BW tokens better flexibility in our bad match ups against Tron and bogles, and in mirror match ups. Thoughts?
Having said all of this, I think most of the deck lists we are toying with here are good. I don't think there are better cards. Shoot, I am even taking out my Hero of Bladeholds for Secure the Wastes.
Suppression Field isn't asymmetric enough for us to warrant being used in the deck. I've considered it.
The green splash for Gavony isn't worth it.
Beat Abzan and Grixis Twin tonight, with a loss to wonky UR Delver build. Four maindeck Vapor Snag, at least two Cryptic, and two Shackles in board.
Dictate is cute, but it doesn't shore up the bad matchups in any way. I ran a fourth Bitterblossom for the first time ever. Lost two games to BB trigger... I've lost to it four times in the previous two months. Seems not great if opponents have ways of keeping you off Sorin. Final sideboard for tomorrow:
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Go for the Throat
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Hour of Reckoning
The only bad matchup I think Dictate is good against is Tron. That said, I've really enjoyed it against against the more fair/midrange decks (particularly ones with Seige Rhino) since it just stomps on their face instead of making it take an eternity of top-deck wars to grind them out.
The more you're in an aggro-tempo build, the better Tidehollow is, probably.
When I play Junk Company I really hate to see Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage with both having pros and cons. I guess it depends which card is more effective for the rest of your meta.
Also, I think the Brimaz, King of Oreskos or Hero of Bladehold is an underrated sideboard plan. I've seen players at my store use it to great effect when their opponents board out 1-for-1 removal, thoughts on this?
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
EDH:
WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG
UGEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG