Time Stop does something very different from Time Warp. Time Stop gives them a turn, it lets them untap and have mana up for something. This deck really cant handle anything in the upper CMC cards that aren't Time Walks; it cloggs your mana and hinders your combo.
I'm surprised I wasn't the only one considering Leyline of Anticipation with the same reasoning (EOT Howling Mine is pretty good!) but also another reason.
Anyone who's played this deck knows how powerful having multiple extra turns queued up is. EOT Time Warp is as good as miracle Temporal Mastery in that it gives you situations where you get an extra turn in which you are not committed to casting an extra turn spell.
By the way, it's perfectly okay to give your opponent a turn in many situations with this deck. Just establishing a situation where they can't do anything with their turn lets you treat saying 'go' like taking an extra turn, especially against Affinity postboard when holding Hurkyl's Recall, or vs creature-based decks when holding Cryptic Command.
Leyline seems okay, but how could be update the deck to put it in? We need to have 4 copies to guarantee it in our opening hand. I'm also concerned that, if it's not and we draw it later in the game, it's an actual dead card.
This deck doesn't need to be faster. Time Walks don't start on turn 5; they start on turns 2 (Remand) and 4 (Cryptic Command). Turn 5 is when your opponent can't actually play anymore. Farfishere has had really good results, and so has Dan at mtgostrat. The reason you don't see it more is that that site is mostly dedicated to Pauper and MTGO material. Give it time, though.
Time Stop does something very different from Time Warp. Time Stop gives them a turn, it lets them untap and have mana up for something. This deck really cant handle anything in the upper CMC cards that aren't Time Walks; it cloggs your mana and hinders your combo.
You let them cast something, Time Stop in response. Their mana is tapped, their spell is exiled, and its roughly the same as a Time Warp. I'm not saying its better than any of the other Time Warps available, but if you need an extra in the deck than it might be worthwhile. Or, if they're not playing counterspells, then you can just Time Stop during their upkeep, it prevents them from drawing any cards for the turn and without counters you're not really afraid of anything they can cast as an instant, are you?
Time Stop could be a good time warp effect. Similar to Cryptic Command. Let them untap, cast something, you counter it and end their turn. Or you cast it when they go to the beginning of combat. Maybe not as good as the other 6 mana time warps, but it could maybe have a place as a trick time warp? You could play it during their upkeep and its not even a trick...but it still lets them untap. Might still be worth testing though.
Against non-blue decks you can just cast that on the opponent's upkeep and have the ability to keep rolling for the most part. I suppose the one downside to it being the fact that they get to untap 'inbetween' your turns which isn't allowed for with the others. It does double as essentially a counterspell in that it exiles the stack, but I just don't see anything that I would want to replace with it.
- Time Warp costs less
- Walk the Aeons has buyback which I've used several times to keep going and end up winning
- Temporal Mastery has the miracle cost which has ramped me enough to out-tempo people OR cast mid-combo and keep mana up for other things.
- Cryptic Command - I'm very close to saying strictly better. I love this card in this deck.
Wouldn't Cryptic just be better? Deny them progress, draw a card for less mana than Time Stop.
Cryptic might as well be Time Walks 13-16 here.
Im not saying that Time Stop is bad at all, I've been dying to use it for ever.
Cryptic Command is most definitely time-walk 13-16, against almost all decks. Combo? Counter their combo piece and draw a card. Aggro? Tap their critters and bounce something/draw a card. I love that card, I think it's the best 'time-walk' card in the deck.
Tested it against 2-mans and 8-mans, good. Then took it to modern daily.
Lost 1-2 against UWR control.
Lost 1-2 against UR delver
Lost 0-2 against UWR midrange
Lost 0-2 against UWR gifts control.
I can't beat anything running a load of countermagic. I kept running into remands, cryptic commands and mana leak. In the sideboard, more spell snares and spell pierces. It's not even about siding in countermagic anymore. The problem is the thinning effect of their fetchlands start to kick in over the long course, and we just run out of countermagic by the time we want to go off!
Splash black for duress and inquisitions? Try to win faster using Azor's Elocutors? Sideboard transform into 15 islandwalking merfolk, hoping half the metagame plays islands, and race them using the timewalk effects? Splash red to blow up their lands (not a joke: this deck is so tightly constructed it doesn't sideboard very well anyway)?
I can't beat anything running a load of countermagic. I kept running into remands, cryptic commands and mana leak. In the sideboard, more spell snares and spell pierces. It's not even about siding in countermagic anymore.
Have you tried Gigadrowse. It is very effective against the control match up.
I was thinking about taking this to a local tournament as a metagame decision. I thought it was pretty far in the rogue category until I saw this. Anyway, I was wanting input on this since it is at least slightly related to this archetype.
The goal with this deck is to have multiple ways to do everything that this deck does. I'm assuming that there are a million sideboard cards that shut this deck down, and instead of trying to prevent hate from happening, I just have a plan B for everything. This creates a trap for opponents sideboarding.
There are two different draw engines. Looter il-kor and howling mine can provide continuous draw/filtering. With the presence of abrupt decay, I am just going to take the removal of howling mine for granted, and if it sticks, that's great. The other draw engine functions off of locket of yesterdays. It reduces the cost of everything over time. Soon you can play thirst for knowledge and compulsive research for U. More importantly, you will be able to play whispers of the muse late game with buyback for U. Keep in mind that your timewalk spells costs are also reduced, so it's more managable that you would think. If graveyard hate happens, it's not a big deal because I have alternatives.
I run three timewalk variants. Exhaustion is the only one needing discussion. While it isn't a timewalk, it eats up a bunch of time if you can catch your opponent tapped out. Against a creature based deck, this shouldn't be a problem since they are trying to race and use their mana as efficiently as possible to shut me down. This also enables me to go off more quickly.
I have two win conditions. One is continuously swinging with looter il-kor while I am timewalking. The other is forcing the opponent to draw their entire deck. To do this, I draw to the bottom card of my deck, and play memory's journey. I put these three cards on top of my deck: timewarp, memory's journey, and compulsive research on top of my deck. I draw all three by whatever means I have and then I play all three. Locket of yesterdays can bring this process all the way down to UUUU so it is a bit more manageable than you'd think.
I pretty much threw the sideboard together and it's not set in stone. Considering that it's bad matchups are most likely decks with counterspells, defense grid is in the sideboard. Gigadrowse is also there for similar reasons.
I intend to play this deck exclusively as a rogue deck. Once someone plays it once, I don't expect it to work on the same person again. This is why I don't run any counterspells in the main. I can get away with it because others players have to respect that possibility until they know that I don't run them.
I also run nothing but islands as lands. There are a few reasons for this. 1. I don't deal damage to myself. 2. whispers of the muse and locket of yesterdays practically necessitates a pure blue manabase. 3. I'm immune to blood moon and other nonbasic land hate. 4. I can't really seem to think of any lands that would really help. The ones I have thought about just don't seem to be worth it. 5. I can't get colorscrewed. If anyone can think of a land that would be worth adding, please mention it. It's really bizzare to have a deck built exclusively with basic lands.
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Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
I threw together a rough list on MTGO when I realized I had all of the expensive cards and played some 2-mans and practice rounds. I was surprised by how little time it takes to win with the combo (took me 7 minutes the first time I did it, but I was down to 3-4 by the end of the night). I won against Jund, White-splash Jund, Junk, UR Delver, a five-color Delver+Tarmogoyf deck with Knight of the Reliquary, and Mono-U Tron. The last match seemed the easiest while the BGx matchups were more difficult. The only discard effect I saw out of the five-color list was Inquisition, and he made a questionable decision of taking my Serum Visions when I had Howling Mine in hand.
Against Jund, we need a bit of luck, but they don't win quickly, so if we can land a Mine we can definitely take the game. Liliana does nothing as long as she doesn't get up to 6, and we have to survive the Tarmogoyfs. I brought in Aetherize, Trickbind and Hibernation (I was going to get Damping Matrix, but it's crazy expensive online for a bulk rare) and had an easier time in g2 and g3.
Working on a warp deck also. Very different in that timewarps are not my wincon, but rather the gain I get from them puts me over the edge. It is WU(b).
Working pretty well so far.
Hussar acts as a HM while also doubling as a possible win con once I can set up a few turns. I prefer him over mine as it is one sided and can attack like a champ in a pinch.
Souls buys you time while also activating Hussar, attacking whenever possible, and shrinking PWs. A nice pitch early turns
Crucible sets up a situation where every 3 turns I will walk.
Haunting is the weakest card in the deck. It is good at Eot activating Hussar though. It's also ok at messing up combat math. Like when people think it is safe to attack with Deathrites and Lavamancers.
Verdict is another walk vs a lot of decks. It is bad in I have to play another souls or haunting to get Hussar back online, but so many decks in my area just lose to it. I had Wrath of God in its place, but too often the delver or goyf player could just counter wrath.
Been watching someone play this on twitch to great effect, going to sleeve it up and start taking it to my store, we just started running a weekly modern.
Thinking the OP's list is the best I saw so far, except I'll MD Lab Maniacs since I want an actual win condition instead of just "infinite turns, I can find some way to mill you, next game?"
I built a deck in Mirrodin Kamigawa Standard that was on this game plan. I find it to be so much fun I have kept it to this day and I use it to play once against someone if I feel like being a troll. There might be some value in seeing it.
I just ran the deck thought a small tourney. Lost game one to Melita pod. Well really it was a draw because we went to time at 1:1 and I could not finish it in 5 turns. It was my first time playing the deck so I was playing rather slowly. The match felt very winnable though. Round two I won 2:0 against goblins. Pretty easy as the build was not optimal plus the pilot was a bit clueless. Round three was a 2:0 against melira pod. He was competent, it's just that I started to get hang of the deck by that time. Round four was a 1:2 loss to nyxos ramp. He managed to lock me with command - witness lock one game. Another game I fizzled and he killed me. On the surface the matchup looked easy but it was not. Remands are ineffective against him.
Perhaps running a one-off Panoptic Mirror would be great for a surprise method of going infinite. You can put a Time Warp on it with its trigger on the stack during your next upkeep. Thus you can go infinite after just a one-turn window for your opponent.
I just ran the deck thought a small tourney. Lost game one to Melita pod. Well really it was a draw because we went to time at 1:1 and I could not finish it in 5 turns. It was my first time playing the deck so I was playing rather slowly. The match felt very winnable though. Round two I won 2:0 against goblins. Pretty easy as the build was not optimal plus the pilot was a bit clueless. Round three was a 2:0 against melira pod. He was competent, it's just that I started to get hang of the deck by that time. Round four was a 1:2 loss to nyxos ramp. He managed to lock me with command - witness lock one game. Another game I fizzled and he killed me. On the surface the matchup looked easy but it was not. Remands are ineffective against him.
Mind sharing a list?
Since I found Maze's End as a deck highly entertaining in Standard and Stasis is not in this format,
I considered giving this deck a spin. I found Red's (?) List from P2 highly
interesting but would like to get more input to make a more qualified decision
if I would like to go Time Walking (preferred) or foggin in minor events -
I run a self build Esper Fiends list in major events with a huge sucess ratio.
Until then those spells will simply gather more dust in their binders.
Regards,
Matt
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you will clarify I would be more than happy to help out in any way I can (:
Perhaps running a one-off Panoptic Mirror would be great for a surprise method of going infinite. You can put a Time Warp on it with its trigger on the stack during your next upkeep. Thus you can go infinite after just a one-turn window for your opponent.
You may be on to something there. It definitely warrants testing! Have you had any experience with it personally?
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Agreed. The knocks against mirror is that it would be far too slow or a regular game. I could see it in a control or against midrange or something of that nature. But against pod/affinity/merfolk/zoo/etc it would be far too slow. In certain metas it could prevail but I would not bring it to a big event personally (The deck with the artifact)
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
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"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Anyone who's played this deck knows how powerful having multiple extra turns queued up is. EOT Time Warp is as good as miracle Temporal Mastery in that it gives you situations where you get an extra turn in which you are not committed to casting an extra turn spell.
By the way, it's perfectly okay to give your opponent a turn in many situations with this deck. Just establishing a situation where they can't do anything with their turn lets you treat saying 'go' like taking an extra turn, especially against Affinity postboard when holding Hurkyl's Recall, or vs creature-based decks when holding Cryptic Command.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Leyline seems okay, but how could be update the deck to put it in? We need to have 4 copies to guarantee it in our opening hand. I'm also concerned that, if it's not and we draw it later in the game, it's an actual dead card.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372
You let them cast something, Time Stop in response. Their mana is tapped, their spell is exiled, and its roughly the same as a Time Warp. I'm not saying its better than any of the other Time Warps available, but if you need an extra in the deck than it might be worthwhile. Or, if they're not playing counterspells, then you can just Time Stop during their upkeep, it prevents them from drawing any cards for the turn and without counters you're not really afraid of anything they can cast as an instant, are you?
Cryptic might as well be Time Walks 13-16 here.
Im not saying that Time Stop is bad at all, I've been dying to use it for ever.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Against non-blue decks you can just cast that on the opponent's upkeep and have the ability to keep rolling for the most part. I suppose the one downside to it being the fact that they get to untap 'inbetween' your turns which isn't allowed for with the others. It does double as essentially a counterspell in that it exiles the stack, but I just don't see anything that I would want to replace with it.
- Time Warp costs less
- Walk the Aeons has buyback which I've used several times to keep going and end up winning
- Temporal Mastery has the miracle cost which has ramped me enough to out-tempo people OR cast mid-combo and keep mana up for other things.
- Cryptic Command - I'm very close to saying strictly better. I love this card in this deck.
Cryptic Command is most definitely time-walk 13-16, against almost all decks. Combo? Counter their combo piece and draw a card. Aggro? Tap their critters and bounce something/draw a card. I love that card, I think it's the best 'time-walk' card in the deck.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Lost 1-2 against UWR control.
Lost 1-2 against UR delver
Lost 0-2 against UWR midrange
Lost 0-2 against UWR gifts control.
I can't beat anything running a load of countermagic. I kept running into remands, cryptic commands and mana leak. In the sideboard, more spell snares and spell pierces. It's not even about siding in countermagic anymore. The problem is the thinning effect of their fetchlands start to kick in over the long course, and we just run out of countermagic by the time we want to go off!
Splash black for duress and inquisitions? Try to win faster using Azor's Elocutors? Sideboard transform into 15 islandwalking merfolk, hoping half the metagame plays islands, and race them using the timewalk effects? Splash red to blow up their lands (not a joke: this deck is so tightly constructed it doesn't sideboard very well anyway)?
Have you tried Gigadrowse. It is very effective against the control match up.
4 thirst for knowledge
4 whispers of the muse
4 locket of yesterdays
4 walk the aeons
4 time warp
2 memory's journey
4 exhaustion
4 howling mine
4 looter il-kor
4 gigadrowse
4 repeal
4 muddle the mixture
3 defense grid
I was thinking about taking this to a local tournament as a metagame decision. I thought it was pretty far in the rogue category until I saw this. Anyway, I was wanting input on this since it is at least slightly related to this archetype.
The goal with this deck is to have multiple ways to do everything that this deck does. I'm assuming that there are a million sideboard cards that shut this deck down, and instead of trying to prevent hate from happening, I just have a plan B for everything. This creates a trap for opponents sideboarding.
There are two different draw engines. Looter il-kor and howling mine can provide continuous draw/filtering. With the presence of abrupt decay, I am just going to take the removal of howling mine for granted, and if it sticks, that's great. The other draw engine functions off of locket of yesterdays. It reduces the cost of everything over time. Soon you can play thirst for knowledge and compulsive research for U. More importantly, you will be able to play whispers of the muse late game with buyback for U. Keep in mind that your timewalk spells costs are also reduced, so it's more managable that you would think. If graveyard hate happens, it's not a big deal because I have alternatives.
I run three timewalk variants. Exhaustion is the only one needing discussion. While it isn't a timewalk, it eats up a bunch of time if you can catch your opponent tapped out. Against a creature based deck, this shouldn't be a problem since they are trying to race and use their mana as efficiently as possible to shut me down. This also enables me to go off more quickly.
I have two win conditions. One is continuously swinging with looter il-kor while I am timewalking. The other is forcing the opponent to draw their entire deck. To do this, I draw to the bottom card of my deck, and play memory's journey. I put these three cards on top of my deck: timewarp, memory's journey, and compulsive research on top of my deck. I draw all three by whatever means I have and then I play all three. Locket of yesterdays can bring this process all the way down to UUUU so it is a bit more manageable than you'd think.
I pretty much threw the sideboard together and it's not set in stone. Considering that it's bad matchups are most likely decks with counterspells, defense grid is in the sideboard. Gigadrowse is also there for similar reasons.
I intend to play this deck exclusively as a rogue deck. Once someone plays it once, I don't expect it to work on the same person again. This is why I don't run any counterspells in the main. I can get away with it because others players have to respect that possibility until they know that I don't run them.
I also run nothing but islands as lands. There are a few reasons for this. 1. I don't deal damage to myself. 2. whispers of the muse and locket of yesterdays practically necessitates a pure blue manabase. 3. I'm immune to blood moon and other nonbasic land hate. 4. I can't really seem to think of any lands that would really help. The ones I have thought about just don't seem to be worth it. 5. I can't get colorscrewed. If anyone can think of a land that would be worth adding, please mention it. It's really bizzare to have a deck built exclusively with basic lands.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
I threw together a rough list on MTGO when I realized I had all of the expensive cards and played some 2-mans and practice rounds. I was surprised by how little time it takes to win with the combo (took me 7 minutes the first time I did it, but I was down to 3-4 by the end of the night). I won against Jund, White-splash Jund, Junk, UR Delver, a five-color Delver+Tarmogoyf deck with Knight of the Reliquary, and Mono-U Tron. The last match seemed the easiest while the BGx matchups were more difficult. The only discard effect I saw out of the five-color list was Inquisition, and he made a questionable decision of taking my Serum Visions when I had Howling Mine in hand.
Against Jund, we need a bit of luck, but they don't win quickly, so if we can land a Mine we can definitely take the game. Liliana does nothing as long as she doesn't get up to 6, and we have to survive the Tarmogoyfs. I brought in Aetherize, Trickbind and Hibernation (I was going to get Damping Matrix, but it's crazy expensive online for a bulk rare) and had an easier time in g2 and g3.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Walk the Aeons
2 Time Warp
4 Remand
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 Midnight Haunting
4 Howling Mine
2 Crucible of Worlds
23 Lands Still working on what is best.
Working pretty well so far.
Hussar acts as a HM while also doubling as a possible win con once I can set up a few turns. I prefer him over mine as it is one sided and can attack like a champ in a pinch.
Souls buys you time while also activating Hussar, attacking whenever possible, and shrinking PWs. A nice pitch early turns
Crucible sets up a situation where every 3 turns I will walk.
Haunting is the weakest card in the deck. It is good at Eot activating Hussar though. It's also ok at messing up combat math. Like when people think it is safe to attack with Deathrites and Lavamancers.
Verdict is another walk vs a lot of decks. It is bad in I have to play another souls or haunting to get Hussar back online, but so many decks in my area just lose to it. I had Wrath of God in its place, but too often the delver or goyf player could just counter wrath.
Thinking the OP's list is the best I saw so far, except I'll MD Lab Maniacs since I want an actual win condition instead of just "infinite turns, I can find some way to mill you, next game?"
11 Island
11 Forest
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Okina, Temple of the Grandfathers (enables winning by attacking with Azami for extra trolling)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Thought Courier
3 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Memnarch (Steal all their stuff: "Stop punching yourself")
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror (Bonus points for making 20 tokens in one turn and killing them)
1 Jushi Apprentice (Fun for making them draw their deck)
3 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time of Need
2 Rampant Growth
3 Heartbeat of Spring
4 Beacon of Tomorrows
3 Time Stop
2 Mindslaver
No Sideboard because no one ever wants to play a second game.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you will clarify I would be more than happy to help out in any way I can (:
You may be on to something there. It definitely warrants testing! Have you had any experience with it personally?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge