Yes i totally think sin prodder can make some work in a sked deck..i would have loved it if he was a 2/4 Basically with Koth,Demigod, Stormbreath, Thunderbreak, you have about 40% odds in those decks of flipping a 4 or 5 damage spell or Card advantage engine.
Yes i totally think sin prodder can make some work in a sked deck..i would have loved it if he was a 2/4 Basically with Koth,Demigod, Stormbreath, Thunderbreak, you have about 40% odds in those decks of flipping a 4 or 5 damage spell or Card advantage engine.
- 2/4 would make him... just overpowered. Surviving Bolts, Angers, .... blocking Nacatls, ... and his pricetag would be easily around 50Euro
Private Mod Note
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"From my rotting body,
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
Not sure he's that good. On top of being suceptible to every removal spell that exists (as noted), he gives our opponent the choice. Obviously, any land will get sent to the bottom. So will most of our burn spells (take 1 to avoid Lightning Bolt is pretty obvious). And, because our creatures have Haste, they're probably going to send to the bottom any Koth or Dragon rather than receive an attack. It's probably therefore reasonable to assume that every card it turns gets milled unless the opponent is at low life total, in which case something else might finish the job.
So, in effect, it should be looked at as a 3-mana permanent that will do damage per turn (starting next turn) equal to the average CC of the deck (about 2) at most, and dies to our own sweepers and any opposing creature removal. I feel like we can do better for 3 mana.
Edit: actually, this looks very comparable to Browbeat. I don't think I'd play that, either.
Edit: actually, this looks very comparable to Browbeat. I don't think I'd play that, either.
Browbeat says "Let your opponent draw or take damage" - Sin Prodder says "Let your opponent draw or take damage and put this card in his Graveyard"
- Abusing this is possible aka. Chandra's PhoenixFlamewake PhoenixDemigod of Revenge
- Hes a beater, Menace is awesome
- He can be hit by ANY removal in the format
- At least Bolt will hit him instead of Chandra or Koth
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"From my rotting body,
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
I'd abstain from this one, except for perhaps Dragon Stompy where you have a higher curve and plenty of ways to protect your devil. Especially if you cheat and use Moltensteel Dragon as a "4" drop and give them the option of giving you a dragon or burning them for 6...
Edit: actually, this looks very comparable to Browbeat. I don't think I'd play that, either.
Browbeat says "Let your opponent draw or take damage" - Sin Prodder says "Let your opponent draw or take damage and put this card in his Graveyard"
- Abusing this is possible aka. Chandra's PhoenixFlamewake PhoenixDemigod of Revenge
- Hes a beater, Menace is awesome
- He can be hit by ANY removal in the format
- At least Bolt will hit him instead of Chandra or Koth
I can definitely see the argument with the Phoenixes. Maybe the Demigods, but maybe not (after all, you still have to hit another one). The fact that it soaks up burn or removal isn't as much a detriment, I guess. But it still makes me wonder what I'd cut to make room? I certainly wouldn't cut traditional burn, Koth, Dragons, or other things like that. The only things I could see are sweepers (who are almost directly antagonistic and fill the exact opposite purpose) or other mid-cost CA spells like Outpost Siege, Commune with Lava, or Chandra, Pyromaster.
Not sure he's that good. On top of being suceptible to every removal spell that exists (as noted), he gives our opponent the choice. Obviously, any land will get sent to the bottom. So will most of our burn spells (take 1 to avoid Lightning Bolt is pretty obvious). And, because our creatures have Haste, they're probably going to send to the bottom any Koth or Dragon rather than receive an attack. It's probably therefore reasonable to assume that every card it turns gets milled unless the opponent is at low life total, in which case something else might finish the job.
So, in effect, it should be looked at as a 3-mana permanent that will do damage per turn (starting next turn) equal to the average CC of the deck (about 2) at most, and dies to our own sweepers and any opposing creature removal. I feel like we can do better for 3 mana.
Edit: actually, this looks very comparable to Browbeat. I don't think I'd play that, either.
You are correct to it dying to removal but for the rest of your paragraph I believe you are evaluating the card wrong. It's all about probability and the variance of a shuffled deck. You aren't really giving your opponent choice here since they cannot affect the top of your deck. IT's a free draw. You still get your draw step and no matter how you look it if you untap you start drawing free cards. IF you reveal a land and they bottom it? You get your draw step and could just as easily rip another land off. The chances of them bottoming a land and it effecting your land drops are miniscul. If they bottom a lightning bolt? They still take 1 dmg and you could easily draw a skred, or a needed land drop or koth or any other card in your deck since they cannot affect the draw step.
This is technically by definition a punisher mechanic and most players don't like punisher mechanics but this is read as the most different punisher mechanic printed. Once you untap this is a free effect and costs you nothing anymore.
So with the way probability works at least in Magic you're opponent is not actually decreasing the quality of your draw by denying you those cards, it's just straight free damage. The true question is do you want play a 3 drop that just dies to every piece of removal without doing anything till next turn? Thats the true question.
I mean some versions already run Reckoner and he gets absolutely no value half the time. I think this card is worth trying but in a deck that draws removal like with Reckoner and bigger finishers (demigod, thundermaw, wurmcoil, storm) etc.
You are correct to it dying to removal but for the rest of your paragraph I believe you are evaluating the card wrong.
...
No, I get how it works. I wasn't saying his ability was a drawback. I was saying it's just not that good. Look at him for what he is: A 3-cc, semi-evasive, generally fragile creature that may deal some extra damage each turn. He is a cheap threat.
With 3 mana, I probably need to stabilize the board or buy time, which is done by Blood Moon, Molten Rain, Anger of the Gods, Boros Reckoner.
With 4+ mana, I can play either a more consistent and durable threat or CA source (like Chandra, Pyromaster).
And that's the problem. He's useless defensively, which is the mana-spot he competes with. He's worse than any 4cc+ threat or CA source. And, to make matters worse, he's the CA when you'd rather the threat, the threat when you'd rather the CA. He does two things well, but is always doing the wrong one!
Cards like this have come along before. There's a reason why they have never been good enough. This would serve better in a deck where a 3-mana 3-power body would be more useful (so any ability would just be a bonus). But for us, 3-mana is a busy place, the 3/2 isn't as useful, and a the ability is probably not enough to make up the difference.
I mean some versions already run Reckoner and he gets absolutely no value half the time. I think this card is worth trying but in a deck that draws removal like with Reckoner and bigger finishers (demigod, thundermaw, wurmcoil, storm) etc.
Reckoner almost single-handedly dominates ground-combat, amplifies the power of your anti-creature burn and sweepers, penalizes opponent's attempts to remove him with burn, and can occassionally be a powerful enough threat to win the game. Of those four things, Sin Prodder only does the last of them.
Still, I agree that if I were to run Sin Prodder, I'd play as many creatures as possible to saturate opposing removal. The longer Sin Prodder can stick around, the more advantage he provides.
But for my money, I'd rather play the card that does what I need it to rather than what my opponent wants it to.
Been testing the card with my friends these past few days, and I love it!
After play-testing, I've seen myself playing him only when I either have a fourth land in my hand in turn 3, or I have a mind stone to tap for 4 mana when I only have 3 lands in play during turn 4. Sometimes blood moon doesn't do too much (we've all been there), but having the option of casting this on turn 3 is pretty nice for skred. Flipping Koth, Pyromaster, or Pia, when you already have one on board is amazing. They either give you card advantage or they take 4.
But yes, even thought it is 'random,' sometimes the land situation gets a bit weird. When they mill the land you need, it's a bit of a pain: that's why I tend to only play it in situations mentioned above.
Also, that body and evasion does help. Most of the time, unless you are running hangarback walkers (I've seen some builds using it), you don't have a body to block attacks which are directed at your planeswalker which you played during turn 4.
I think this card is the card advantage engine skred needed for a while. Yes it is punisher, but the fact that you still get your normal draw is amazing.
This card is almost all upside.
I still need to test this and see if I make the final call to swap out my mainboard molten rains for this.
For info, I ran 3x copies (going to try 4x soon). And I played against jund, naya, infect, and delver.
I'm at work right now so I have to remember it from the top of my head.
4x Bolt
4x Skred
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pia and Kalaar
3x Koth
3x Blood Moon
3x Hangarback Walkers (friend persuaded me, amazing stalling and gas for pia, but weird interaction with Sin prodder, so testing here as well. But more often than not, during late game, when they mill Hangarback - most of the time they will because it's no damage for them - I'm actually super okay with that cause that's the last thing I really want to draw).
3x Molten rain/Sin Prodder (testing still)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Chandra, Flamecaller (this card is insane, it literally is just 'this resolves turn 6...okay I win')
2x Goblin Dark-dweller
2x Pyroclasm
2x Mindstone
2x scrying sheet
rest are snow-covered
Also, I'm okay with the opponent using a removal spell to take out sin fodder. The pia and kalaar follow up really helps stalling the board to draw your other outs, and the fact you probably still have a relic, mindstone, or thopter tokens out from hangarback means you can control the board with the threat of the 2 damage burn from Pia
Well you just have to know when to use it and when not to use it. Am I going to die to a 'become immense' infect attack; or some reanimator shenanigans; or my favourite, turn 2-3 tasigur? There are too many graveyard interactions in the meta that warrants having relics. Also, I only run two, and most of the times I've played, even with cracking relics, Goblin on turn 6 with a bolt in hand is pretty amazing. Also, with Sin Prodder, during mid-late game, if they make me discard relic, I think I'm winning (basically, it lets me draw the real threats in my deck).
Same deck as the last time I ran it. I went 3-1 and got 5th out of 21. Can't really complain. Won against Affinity x2 and BW Tokens (very budget) so not much to really go by). My only lost was against boggles and all my SB was in the bottom of the deck. Overall, still enjoying this deck. Might cut Chandra since I never really wanted to play her. Might put in something else next time.
Played some more matches with Sin Prodder, and it's pretty much unanimous amongst my playgroup: the card is nuts!
When people are fetching and shocking themselves for mana, Sin Prodder becomes amazing, especially if you add thoughtseize damage into the equation. The moment you start flipping your 3+ drops (molten rain, blood moon, sin prodders, koth, chandra, pia and kalaar, etc.), your opponent is going to have a bad time. Having two of these on the field is no joke: the menace is super relevant. Following up Sin Prodder with Pia and Kalaar is great (it clogs up the field). I've replaced my 2x Pyromaster for Thunderbreak Regent for more damage and it's been doing great.
But again, playing this on turn 3 when you don't have a 4th land in hand is a bit annoying. Yes it's "random" but having your opponent land starve you is a bit annoying. But if you have a mindstone turn 2, or you have a 4th land in hand already, get ready to seriously wreck face.
My favourite moment of the day would be my opponent having to decide whether or not he wants me to draw flamecaller or take 6 to the face.
Every time I play Sin Prodder, it becomes priority #1 for my opponents to get rid of it. I'm okay with them using a 'kill spell' to get rid of it because I know I have bigger fatties coming my way in the form of dragons and mom & dad.
Also, can't stress how amazing this is during late game. It let's you dig further down into your deck (it gets rid of that unwanted land). And even if they flip your finishers, that's still damage going directly to their face - anything to put them near bolt range is pretty good.
But, I'm not sure if this will still replace my molten rain + goblin dark-dweller package (it's just too good). It plays different roles, with Sin Prodder, it really does become a "red control" kind of deck with card advantage. I already preordered a set and I'm not regretting it yet so I'm pretty happy!
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
- 2/4 would make him... just overpowered. Surviving Bolts, Angers, .... blocking Nacatls, ... and his pricetag would be easily around 50Euro
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
So, in effect, it should be looked at as a 3-mana permanent that will do damage per turn (starting next turn) equal to the average CC of the deck (about 2) at most, and dies to our own sweepers and any opposing creature removal. I feel like we can do better for 3 mana.
Edit: actually, this looks very comparable to Browbeat. I don't think I'd play that, either.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Browbeat says "Let your opponent draw or take damage" - Sin Prodder says "Let your opponent draw or take damage and put this card in his Graveyard"
- Abusing this is possible aka. Chandra's Phoenix Flamewake Phoenix Demigod of Revenge
- Hes a beater, Menace is awesome
- He can be hit by ANY removal in the format
- At least Bolt will hit him instead of Chandra or Koth
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
I can definitely see the argument with the Phoenixes. Maybe the Demigods, but maybe not (after all, you still have to hit another one). The fact that it soaks up burn or removal isn't as much a detriment, I guess. But it still makes me wonder what I'd cut to make room? I certainly wouldn't cut traditional burn, Koth, Dragons, or other things like that. The only things I could see are sweepers (who are almost directly antagonistic and fill the exact opposite purpose) or other mid-cost CA spells like Outpost Siege, Commune with Lava, or Chandra, Pyromaster.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
You are correct to it dying to removal but for the rest of your paragraph I believe you are evaluating the card wrong. It's all about probability and the variance of a shuffled deck. You aren't really giving your opponent choice here since they cannot affect the top of your deck. IT's a free draw. You still get your draw step and no matter how you look it if you untap you start drawing free cards. IF you reveal a land and they bottom it? You get your draw step and could just as easily rip another land off. The chances of them bottoming a land and it effecting your land drops are miniscul. If they bottom a lightning bolt? They still take 1 dmg and you could easily draw a skred, or a needed land drop or koth or any other card in your deck since they cannot affect the draw step.
This is technically by definition a punisher mechanic and most players don't like punisher mechanics but this is read as the most different punisher mechanic printed. Once you untap this is a free effect and costs you nothing anymore.
So with the way probability works at least in Magic you're opponent is not actually decreasing the quality of your draw by denying you those cards, it's just straight free damage. The true question is do you want play a 3 drop that just dies to every piece of removal without doing anything till next turn? Thats the true question.
I mean some versions already run Reckoner and he gets absolutely no value half the time. I think this card is worth trying but in a deck that draws removal like with Reckoner and bigger finishers (demigod, thundermaw, wurmcoil, storm) etc.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/390366#online
You could go -1 fanatic and -1 commune/pia and go +2 spell skite as well or one more Sin. Either way it's shell
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/390366#online
You could go -1 fanatic and -1 commune/pia and go +2 spell skite as well or one more Sin. Either way it's shell
No, I get how it works. I wasn't saying his ability was a drawback. I was saying it's just not that good. Look at him for what he is: A 3-cc, semi-evasive, generally fragile creature that may deal some extra damage each turn. He is a cheap threat.
With 3 mana, I probably need to stabilize the board or buy time, which is done by Blood Moon, Molten Rain, Anger of the Gods, Boros Reckoner.
With 4+ mana, I can play either a more consistent and durable threat or CA source (like Chandra, Pyromaster).
And that's the problem. He's useless defensively, which is the mana-spot he competes with. He's worse than any 4cc+ threat or CA source. And, to make matters worse, he's the CA when you'd rather the threat, the threat when you'd rather the CA. He does two things well, but is always doing the wrong one!
Cards like this have come along before. There's a reason why they have never been good enough. This would serve better in a deck where a 3-mana 3-power body would be more useful (so any ability would just be a bonus). But for us, 3-mana is a busy place, the 3/2 isn't as useful, and a the ability is probably not enough to make up the difference.
Reckoner almost single-handedly dominates ground-combat, amplifies the power of your anti-creature burn and sweepers, penalizes opponent's attempts to remove him with burn, and can occassionally be a powerful enough threat to win the game. Of those four things, Sin Prodder only does the last of them.
Still, I agree that if I were to run Sin Prodder, I'd play as many creatures as possible to saturate opposing removal. The longer Sin Prodder can stick around, the more advantage he provides.
But for my money, I'd rather play the card that does what I need it to rather than what my opponent wants it to.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Been testing the card with my friends these past few days, and I love it!
After play-testing, I've seen myself playing him only when I either have a fourth land in my hand in turn 3, or I have a mind stone to tap for 4 mana when I only have 3 lands in play during turn 4. Sometimes blood moon doesn't do too much (we've all been there), but having the option of casting this on turn 3 is pretty nice for skred. Flipping Koth, Pyromaster, or Pia, when you already have one on board is amazing. They either give you card advantage or they take 4.
But yes, even thought it is 'random,' sometimes the land situation gets a bit weird. When they mill the land you need, it's a bit of a pain: that's why I tend to only play it in situations mentioned above.
Also, that body and evasion does help. Most of the time, unless you are running hangarback walkers (I've seen some builds using it), you don't have a body to block attacks which are directed at your planeswalker which you played during turn 4.
I think this card is the card advantage engine skred needed for a while. Yes it is punisher, but the fact that you still get your normal draw is amazing.
This card is almost all upside.
I still need to test this and see if I make the final call to swap out my mainboard molten rains for this.
For info, I ran 3x copies (going to try 4x soon). And I played against jund, naya, infect, and delver.
4x Bolt
4x Skred
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pia and Kalaar
3x Koth
3x Blood Moon
3x Hangarback Walkers (friend persuaded me, amazing stalling and gas for pia, but weird interaction with Sin prodder, so testing here as well. But more often than not, during late game, when they mill Hangarback - most of the time they will because it's no damage for them - I'm actually super okay with that cause that's the last thing I really want to draw).
3x Molten rain/Sin Prodder (testing still)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Chandra, Flamecaller (this card is insane, it literally is just 'this resolves turn 6...okay I win')
2x Goblin Dark-dweller
2x Pyroclasm
2x Mindstone
2x scrying sheet
rest are snow-covered
Also, I'm okay with the opponent using a removal spell to take out sin fodder. The pia and kalaar follow up really helps stalling the board to draw your other outs, and the fact you probably still have a relic, mindstone, or thopter tokens out from hangarback means you can control the board with the threat of the 2 damage burn from Pia
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Magma Jet
4x Skred
Sorcery (5)
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Roast
Land (23)
3x Scrying Sheets
20x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Hangarback Walker
3x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Artifact (4)
3x Relic of Progenitus
Enchantment (3)
3x Blood Moon
Planeswalker (4)
4x Koth of the Hammer
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Boil
3x Dragon's Claw
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Molten Rain
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Shattering Spree
Same deck as the last time I ran it. I went 3-1 and got 5th out of 21. Can't really complain. Won against Affinity x2 and BW Tokens (very budget) so not much to really go by). My only lost was against boggles and all my SB was in the bottom of the deck. Overall, still enjoying this deck. Might cut Chandra since I never really wanted to play her. Might put in something else next time.
How are the maindeck Roast and Magma Jet working for you? and why you play 23Lands?
...and why Anger of the Gods+Reckoner instead of Volcanic Fallout + Reckoner?
flowers shall grow
and I am in them
and that is eternity."
Anger is the better sweeper. I've been playing the deck long enough to know when to play certain cards before other cards. Exile is very relevant.
23 lands has always been fine. I curve to four. Don't need more than that
When people are fetching and shocking themselves for mana, Sin Prodder becomes amazing, especially if you add thoughtseize damage into the equation. The moment you start flipping your 3+ drops (molten rain, blood moon, sin prodders, koth, chandra, pia and kalaar, etc.), your opponent is going to have a bad time. Having two of these on the field is no joke: the menace is super relevant. Following up Sin Prodder with Pia and Kalaar is great (it clogs up the field). I've replaced my 2x Pyromaster for Thunderbreak Regent for more damage and it's been doing great.
But again, playing this on turn 3 when you don't have a 4th land in hand is a bit annoying. Yes it's "random" but having your opponent land starve you is a bit annoying. But if you have a mindstone turn 2, or you have a 4th land in hand already, get ready to seriously wreck face.
My favourite moment of the day would be my opponent having to decide whether or not he wants me to draw flamecaller or take 6 to the face.
Every time I play Sin Prodder, it becomes priority #1 for my opponents to get rid of it. I'm okay with them using a 'kill spell' to get rid of it because I know I have bigger fatties coming my way in the form of dragons and mom & dad.
Also, can't stress how amazing this is during late game. It let's you dig further down into your deck (it gets rid of that unwanted land). And even if they flip your finishers, that's still damage going directly to their face - anything to put them near bolt range is pretty good.
But, I'm not sure if this will still replace my molten rain + goblin dark-dweller package (it's just too good). It plays different roles, with Sin Prodder, it really does become a "red control" kind of deck with card advantage. I already preordered a set and I'm not regretting it yet so I'm pretty happy!