Enigma_b raises some good points about reevaluating red's removal suite in the wake of Twin's absence. Is Instant as important? Albeit slower, Sorcery will offer more sizzle at a higher cost. By raising your spell cost, you can play with Chalice of the Void, a virtual wrecking ball when it's cast with 1 counter on it.
If you can sidestep 1-CMC spells in your build, and still maintain board control through alternative burn spells, you're getting a massive advantage. O.K., first you lose (4) Lightning Bolt and (4) Skred. In their stead, I propose you add Rift Bolt and Arc Trail. Arc Trail is especially devastating when you view the current gamescape: it's essentially Burn-Aggro-Infect-Zoo-Merfolk vs. Eldrazi/Tron. Hard truth: bolts/skred are as useless against Eldrazi/Tronas rift bolt/arc trail....Buuuuut, Arc Trail is better against Burn-Aggro-Infect-Zoo-Merfolk (for the most part). Although, Rift Bolt is certainly worse than a bolt/skred against these same decks, you have to recall that arc trail/rift bolt are being used against the backdrop of a Chalice on 1.
Picture the scene in facing the previously named quick decks or even a green deck with mana dorks, and it's turn 2. What do you want to cast? Either a 1-for-1 bolt? Or a 2-for-1 arc trail or a chalice on 1.
Personally, I've added multiple Slagstorm and moved away from the Rift Bolt. Right now, Slagstorm is top-tier utility card for mono-red decks that also run small critters. I view my deck as a cousin deck to what you folks are doing, so a lot of the mechanics translate well.
After testing this deck online, I can say its one of the worst decks to have on modern =/
It loses too much against things that should have no problem, like tron, merfolks, infect... Im note sure if this deck has any good MU. And yes, Im playing it right, just it is too slow and when it cast its win conditions, its too late. I will test further, but ultimating Koth or dealing damage with Reckoner is the only way I were able to win with this deck. I like it a lot, its fun and rare to see other ppl playing it, and I love Koth, but it just loses too much.
This is the decklist Im testing, any suggestions? I dont like the artifacts build because: people will side artifact hate and is a pain, cause we run many, and I like my creatures to survive the sweepers I have in the main.
Ensnaring Bridge and Rabblemaster plays terrible with each other. They'll always have blockers for your goblins. In fact, I don't think Bridge is needed at all in your deck. Definently not as a 4-of. Sure, it stops the bigger creatures.. You can just roast them out though. It's a pretty decent stall tactic, but all you're stalling for is some mediocre creatures. It just seems like it doesn't play well, to me at least.
As far as Chalice goes, I'm not saying to escue all 1-drops in favor of it because unless you have it in your opener, you may need some burn. I'm saying limit yourself to about 4. Either lightning bolt or even forked bolt as it would kill free mimics on t1. Then, have roasts or something similar for t2 burn.
After testing this deck online, I can say its one of the worst decks to have on modern =/
It loses too much against things that should have no problem, like tron, merfolks, infect... Im note sure if this deck has any good MU. And yes, Im playing it right, just it is too slow and when it cast its win conditions, its too late. I will test further, but ultimating Koth or dealing damage with Reckoner is the only way I were able to win with this deck. I like it a lot, its fun and rare to see other ppl playing it, and I love Koth, but it just loses too much.
This is the decklist Im testing, any suggestions? I dont like the artifacts build because: people will side artifact hate and is a pain, cause we run many, and I like my creatures to survive the sweepers I have in the main.
Well you are running a version that isn't great in the current meta. It's slow. You need to bring it further to the ground. I'll tell you right now 3 Stormbreath and 3 Wurmcoil is too slow. Reckoner isn't great at all. Kozilek's Return doesn't really fit in our deck. If you are trying to kill Pro Red then Pyrite Spellbomb is outright better for us since if it's a "dead" card you can just cycle it or use it with Pia and Kiran. Fallout is just better at 3 mana or Anger. I would look into Hangarback Walker and Pia and Kiran Nalaar. They protect Koth and late game represent lethal fast with the ability to attack then sack or destroy creatures.
Against Affinity/BG Rock/Abzan/Green-X and occasions of Burn/Zoo/Merfolk/Early Eldrzi plays....When you consider that you are playing Chalice of the Void with the knowledge that you can't include 1-drops in your own deck, then Arc Trail is indefatigably superior to 1-for-1 removal. Note: Goblin Guide/Monastery Swiftspear/Wild Nacatl and any number of other threats you didn't name are 1-CMC spells........when you run Chalice, these motherhumpers are dead issues - total non-threats when a Skred commits to switch from 1-shot kill spells to 2cmc spells. Jus' Sayin'. EDIT: Arc Trail is being used in a deck that plays its own creatures that will die to Pyroclasm.
Not looking to start a whole kerfuffle. Just saying that BOLT vs. ARC TRAIL is not apples to apples. They must be viewed against the very elementary fact that Arc Trail can play Chalice of the Void and Bolt can't.
Your Official Primer Author agreed that Chalice is an avenue worth exploring. I split for 1st at my FNM tonight - v. small tourney, but it worked. And, I attribute the wins to the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge - it's a house with a huge back porch.
I'll go silent for a while. I don't want to be the jackwagon that posts in a thread that isn't his with ideas that aren't native. So, cool - best wishes. I do often drop in for looksies to see what you folks are doing for ideas - all due respect for how they contribute to other builds. Appreciated.
I like the idea with Purphoros, God of the Forge a lot. Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier, it also synergizes well with Hangarbackwalkers. But what would you replace it with and how many should you run?
I was thinking about swapping 2 of them instead of Wurmcoil Engine as artifact hate is so rampant in my meta that they do not get to do much. Ending our curve on 5 instead of 6 smooths out the deck a bit as well.
They are also insanely hard to get rid of. As the only thing that can get them is exile. And path is the only card off the top of my head that people run.
Why run arc trail when pyroclasm is an option? The piddly burn damage is hardly a convincing upside compared to how much better pyroclasm is at just clearing the board.
We are, after all, a control deck. At the end of the day the best option will, most often, be the one that can more reliably net larger returns on card advantage.
And pyroclasm wins there.
Maybe in lists that run the nalaars, as they and their toys die to the ol clasm.
Now, it might make sense to just run both of em.
Ensnaring bridge does look pretty good too.
Especially with hoards of 1/1 tokens, more still when those tokens can get sent straight-to-face with the nalaars.
It might be a good idea to run hangarback+nalaars in that trading post shell.
I'd say that droping skred doesn't necessarily mean dropping scrying sheets tho. Hell, I'd say go with more utility lands, throw in 1 maybe 2 valakuts while we're at it. It's biggest drawback before was weakening early game skreds.
Something else I've found has been that trinisphere is definitely worth testing.
It shuts off a whole bunch of combo decks, or at the very least slows them down long enough for a SSG to win the game off beats by himself.
Aggro and burn slow to an absolute crawl as well.
There's also a pretty good chance you'll be able to keep some decks below 3 mana.
Ultimately, we just run more 3+ mana spells and more LD and more ramp than 90% of the field.
Thanks for the help, I changed my list and it looks a lil better. Can you give me any directions about the sweepers? Im not sure about how many or what should I use.
Thoughts? Reckoner is good on the list as he gave me some games by the damage opponents do to him + bolts, or opponents too afraid to atack into him when out of path/destroy, or just by skred/ Volcanic Fallout to the face + bolts help. Wurmcoil is there for getting extra life or win at late or just entering the board with Koth-2. Hangarback is just great at 2 mana, then slowly get to 3/3 or 4/4 and hit, waiting for opponent to kill it or skred/sac it with nalaar. At mid/late it can be headache for the opponent.
If we go chalice route we could add painter's servant than main deck rending volley instead of skred which opens back up reckoner. Painter set to white turns on Stormbreath and sulfur elemental. Also opens up more shrapnel blast fodder.
Thanks for the help, I changed my list and it looks a lil better. Can you give me any directions about the sweepers? Im not sure about how many or what should I use.
Thoughts? Reckoner is good on the list as he gave me some games by the damage opponents do to him + bolts, or opponents too afraid to atack into him when out of path/destroy, or just by skred/ Volcanic Fallout to the face + bolts help. Wurmcoil is there for getting extra life or win at late or just entering the board with Koth-2. Hangarback is just great at 2 mana, then slowly get to 3/3 or 4/4 and hit, waiting for opponent to kill it or skred/sac it with nalaar. At mid/late it can be headache for the opponent.
I'm gonna be testing this version of the deck over the next few weeks in my modern meta.
Storm is tough.. full 4 Relic's goes a long way to slowing them down. I also added 2 guttural responses in my sideboard if i felt i was going to see alot of storm. You've got the right things here so there's not much to add. You have dragon's claws, so i side those in also. A turn 1 relic, t2 claw, will 85% of the time win you the game or slow them down long enough. It was a lot harder when treasure cruise was in the format.
They do a lot of pain to themselves that sometimes just slowing them down long enough for you bolt them works out just fine
So this is what I have settled on moving from my demigod version of the deck. Not to say there was anything wrong with my demigod version, because honestly, it was winning a lot.
Just felt like changing it up a little bit and focus a little more on koth as my wincon. Since I changed the deck the SB is still under construction, just kinda threw it together. What do you guys think so far?
the Blasphemous act and Banefire actually do wonders. The Banefire has won me so many games out of nowhere and the Blasphemous Act wipes out of nowhere vs the UR Eldrazi and can even result in a win with reckoner, which I refuse to take out of my list. He is too good.
Why Chandra, Flamecaller? at 6 you could cast wormcoil and have a 6/6 which leaves two bodies behind if it dies, whereas hers are exiled? i mean the 0 is a nice feature, but for 6 i want to end the game, unless the goal for her is to help you grind out a stalled out game and if that was the case id rather cast a 4cmc Outpost siege.
And so far i have just been testing her. And have no been dissapointed at all.
It is either 6 spontanious damage that they can't deal with. Or it kills their blockers, or at times helps me dig for a card to win.
There have been quite a few times where i have played koth. to -2 him and play a chandra. Suddenly they are on a 2 turn clock with no board.
I was just testing it over pyromaster and so far have been very satisfied. It represents good card cycling (less relevent now that i don't have demigods)
and very good pressure.
And compared to outpost seige. I have never liked the pyromaster 0 or that card because oh so many cards you can brick on. Just what i have been testing and i have liked it.
I've actually had a pretty easy time against storm. Due largely to cards like trinisphere.
Generally we just lose to alot of these linear combo decks g1, but games 2&3 tend to be cakewalks assuming we have the right cards in our Sb's and we mull aggressively to find them.
Chalice of the void makes it impossible to lose to storm, just be sure to put it on 2, not 1. Trinisphere is just as powerful against storm for 1 less mana.
Also, always run 4 relics somewhere in the 75. They're also amazing against storm.
Finally, boil is a game ender against alot of blue decks. Turns out it's hard to win, combo deck or otherwise, after a one-sided Armageddon. Especially with a trinisphere in play.
The deck I'm having alot of trouble finding silver bullets for is ad nauseum and to a lesser extent the through the breach portion of grishoalbrand
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If you can sidestep 1-CMC spells in your build, and still maintain board control through alternative burn spells, you're getting a massive advantage. O.K., first you lose (4) Lightning Bolt and (4) Skred. In their stead, I propose you add Rift Bolt and Arc Trail. Arc Trail is especially devastating when you view the current gamescape: it's essentially Burn-Aggro-Infect-Zoo-Merfolk vs. Eldrazi/Tron. Hard truth: bolts/skred are as useless against Eldrazi/Tron as rift bolt/arc trail....Buuuuut, Arc Trail is better against Burn-Aggro-Infect-Zoo-Merfolk (for the most part). Although, Rift Bolt is certainly worse than a bolt/skred against these same decks, you have to recall that arc trail/rift bolt are being used against the backdrop of a Chalice on 1.
Picture the scene in facing the previously named quick decks or even a green deck with mana dorks, and it's turn 2. What do you want to cast? Either a 1-for-1 bolt? Or a 2-for-1 arc trail or a chalice on 1.
Personally, I've added multiple Slagstorm and moved away from the Rift Bolt. Right now, Slagstorm is top-tier utility card for mono-red decks that also run small critters. I view my deck as a cousin deck to what you folks are doing, so a lot of the mechanics translate well.
Creatures (9)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Spellskite
1 Magus of the Moon
Accelerators (6)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Desperate Ritual
Enchantments (4)
4 Blood Moon
Instant/Sorcery (7)
3 Arc Trail
3 Slagstorm
1 Earthquake
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Artifacts (8)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Lands (22)
17 Mountain
4 Mutavault
1 Gemstone Caverns
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Shattering Spree
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyroclasm
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spellskite
But yeah, I agree that in the current meta, the best way to beat Eldrazi is going to be joining them in Chalice-wielding.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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It loses too much against things that should have no problem, like tron, merfolks, infect... Im note sure if this deck has any good MU. And yes, Im playing it right, just it is too slow and when it cast its win conditions, its too late. I will test further, but ultimating Koth or dealing damage with Reckoner is the only way I were able to win with this deck. I like it a lot, its fun and rare to see other ppl playing it, and I love Koth, but it just loses too much.
This is the decklist Im testing, any suggestions? I dont like the artifacts build because: people will side artifact hate and is a pain, cause we run many, and I like my creatures to survive the sweepers I have in the main.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mind Stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Skred
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Koth of the Hammer
Enchants
3 Blood Moon
Lands
21 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets
2 Boil
4 Dragon's Claw
3 Molten Rain
2 Shattering Spree
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Roast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
As far as Chalice goes, I'm not saying to escue all 1-drops in favor of it because unless you have it in your opener, you may need some burn. I'm saying limit yourself to about 4. Either lightning bolt or even forked bolt as it would kill free mimics on t1. Then, have roasts or something similar for t2 burn.
Well you are running a version that isn't great in the current meta. It's slow. You need to bring it further to the ground. I'll tell you right now 3 Stormbreath and 3 Wurmcoil is too slow. Reckoner isn't great at all. Kozilek's Return doesn't really fit in our deck. If you are trying to kill Pro Red then Pyrite Spellbomb is outright better for us since if it's a "dead" card you can just cycle it or use it with Pia and Kiran. Fallout is just better at 3 mana or Anger. I would look into Hangarback Walker and Pia and Kiran Nalaar. They protect Koth and late game represent lethal fast with the ability to attack then sack or destroy creatures.
Against Affinity/BG Rock/Abzan/Green-X and occasions of Burn/Zoo/Merfolk/Early Eldrzi plays....When you consider that you are playing Chalice of the Void with the knowledge that you can't include 1-drops in your own deck, then Arc Trail is indefatigably superior to 1-for-1 removal. Note: Goblin Guide/Monastery Swiftspear/Wild Nacatl and any number of other threats you didn't name are 1-CMC spells........when you run Chalice, these motherhumpers are dead issues - total non-threats when a Skred commits to switch from 1-shot kill spells to 2cmc spells. Jus' Sayin'. EDIT: Arc Trail is being used in a deck that plays its own creatures that will die to Pyroclasm.
Not looking to start a whole kerfuffle. Just saying that BOLT vs. ARC TRAIL is not apples to apples. They must be viewed against the very elementary fact that Arc Trail can play Chalice of the Void and Bolt can't.
Your Official Primer Author agreed that Chalice is an avenue worth exploring. I split for 1st at my FNM tonight - v. small tourney, but it worked. And, I attribute the wins to the inclusion of Ensnaring Bridge - it's a house with a huge back porch.
I'll go silent for a while. I don't want to be the jackwagon that posts in a thread that isn't his with ideas that aren't native. So, cool - best wishes. I do often drop in for looksies to see what you folks are doing for ideas - all due respect for how they contribute to other builds. Appreciated.
Edit: paper tourney play has rendered a 3-1 and 2-0 for my Skred Spinoff deck: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/663335-hammers-slammer-koths-mono-red-prison?comment=44
I have not tried it, but I might do so. Anyone else have any experience with it?
Lately I have also tried Molten Rain maindeck. The land destruction subtheme is really good against many things in my meta.
They are also insanely hard to get rid of. As the only thing that can get them is exile. And path is the only card off the top of my head that people run.
We are, after all, a control deck. At the end of the day the best option will, most often, be the one that can more reliably net larger returns on card advantage.
And pyroclasm wins there.
Maybe in lists that run the nalaars, as they and their toys die to the ol clasm.
Now, it might make sense to just run both of em.
Ensnaring bridge does look pretty good too.
Especially with hoards of 1/1 tokens, more still when those tokens can get sent straight-to-face with the nalaars.
It might be a good idea to run hangarback+nalaars in that trading post shell.
I'd say that droping skred doesn't necessarily mean dropping scrying sheets tho. Hell, I'd say go with more utility lands, throw in 1 maybe 2 valakuts while we're at it. It's biggest drawback before was weakening early game skreds.
Something else I've found has been that trinisphere is definitely worth testing.
It shuts off a whole bunch of combo decks, or at the very least slows them down long enough for a SSG to win the game off beats by himself.
Aggro and burn slow to an absolute crawl as well.
There's also a pretty good chance you'll be able to keep some decks below 3 mana.
Ultimately, we just run more 3+ mana spells and more LD and more ramp than 90% of the field.
21 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets
Creatures
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalkers
4 Koth of the Hammer
3 Blood Moon
4 Skred
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Mind stone
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Dragon's Claw
3 Molten Rain
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Shattering Spree
1 Ratchet Bomb
Thoughts? Reckoner is good on the list as he gave me some games by the damage opponents do to him + bolts, or opponents too afraid to atack into him when out of path/destroy, or just by skred/ Volcanic Fallout to the face + bolts help. Wurmcoil is there for getting extra life or win at late or just entering the board with Koth-2. Hangarback is just great at 2 mana, then slowly get to 3/3 or 4/4 and hit, waiting for opponent to kill it or skred/sac it with nalaar. At mid/late it can be headache for the opponent.
If we go chalice route we could add painter's servant than main deck rending volley instead of skred which opens back up reckoner. Painter set to white turns on Stormbreath and sulfur elemental. Also opens up more shrapnel blast fodder.
I'm gonna be testing this version of the deck over the next few weeks in my modern meta.
They do a lot of pain to themselves that sometimes just slowing them down long enough for you bolt them works out just fine
Just felt like changing it up a little bit and focus a little more on koth as my wincon. Since I changed the deck the SB is still under construction, just kinda threw it together. What do you guys think so far?
the Blasphemous act and Banefire actually do wonders. The Banefire has won me so many games out of nowhere and the Blasphemous Act wipes out of nowhere vs the UR Eldrazi and can even result in a win with reckoner, which I refuse to take out of my list. He is too good.
4x Skred
3x Volcanic Fallout
2x Chandra, Flamecaller
4x Koth of the Hammer
2x Scrying Sheets
20x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Banefire
1x Blasphemous Act
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3x Hangarback Walker
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Mindstone
2x Molten Rain
2x Roast
2x Crumble to Dust
3x Dragon's Claw
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Shattering Spree
1x Shatterstorm
Would greatly appreciate feedback or any advice.
GRTitan ScapeshiftGR
UBRGrishoalbrandUBR
WRGNaya CompanyWRG
UREldrazi AggroUR
UMerfolkU
WRNorinWR
It is either 6 spontanious damage that they can't deal with. Or it kills their blockers, or at times helps me dig for a card to win.
There have been quite a few times where i have played koth. to -2 him and play a chandra. Suddenly they are on a 2 turn clock with no board.
I was just testing it over pyromaster and so far have been very satisfied. It represents good card cycling (less relevent now that i don't have demigods)
and very good pressure.
And compared to outpost seige. I have never liked the pyromaster 0 or that card because oh so many cards you can brick on. Just what i have been testing and i have liked it.
GRTitan ScapeshiftGR
UBRGrishoalbrandUBR
WRGNaya CompanyWRG
UREldrazi AggroUR
UMerfolkU
WRNorinWR
Generally we just lose to alot of these linear combo decks g1, but games 2&3 tend to be cakewalks assuming we have the right cards in our Sb's and we mull aggressively to find them.
Chalice of the void makes it impossible to lose to storm, just be sure to put it on 2, not 1. Trinisphere is just as powerful against storm for 1 less mana.
Also, always run 4 relics somewhere in the 75. They're also amazing against storm.
Finally, boil is a game ender against alot of blue decks. Turns out it's hard to win, combo deck or otherwise, after a one-sided Armageddon. Especially with a trinisphere in play.
The deck I'm having alot of trouble finding silver bullets for is ad nauseum and to a lesser extent the through the breach portion of grishoalbrand