I've noticed how many played creatures there are with toughness 1, so I've added le secret tech: Orzhov Pontiff. That card is freakin awesome, and can be ridiculously good sometimes. Also handy when you have to get rid of opponents myr tokens! And with aether vial you can do some nasty combat tricks.
So far in testing, I haven't been disappointed too often in my 2nd Pandemonium, just as long as I have at least Norin/Genesis and another 1 drop in my opening hand. I have had many 1st game quits vs. R/anything when I land Mark/leyline. I think tomorrow I will try to work on adjusting the planeswalker & confusion approach. I also have an idea I'm working on to add green for a naya approach with Ulvenwald Tracker. I'll post the lists in the morning and some results.
I gave it some thought and testing vs. Bant Aggro and came up with this so far:
Did about 60-40 vs. Bant Aggro. Fighting mana dorks helped keep them slower. Veiled Garruk wolf token + mark + tracker = 2 mana, T tracker, kill target creature w/o prot vs black. It takes a lot to get to that point, but with the tokens from genesis, it makes getting garruk to veil is easier, not to mention if you don't want the wolf, ditch a myr for a creature card. Ajani G is pretty disgusting and rarely a dead draw for us. Tec Edge is there for Sun Titan return (if nothing else is more important) and all the shocks seemed to help after initial testing to keep mana problems short.
Getting to 6 mana for Sun Titan is really hard I think, can't imagine that you will be often able to cast him, why not play Mentor of the Meek for card advantage?
Also what do you guys think about Vigilante Justice? Its not as expensive to cast than Warstormsurge, but costs 1 less than Pandemonium, and doesn't threaten yourself like Pandemonium does, but Norin will only shot 1 damage instead of 2.
I dropped the Pridemates and Sun Titans for Mentor of the Meek x3, Kessig Cagebreakers x2 and the 4th Genesis Chamber from the Fight build. Thought behind KC - Champion, Warden and Mentor all get a lot of hate, so not uncommon for them to be in the grave. Might seem win-more, but comes in handy when trying to swing over opposing tokens.
Thoughts on Intangible Virtue? I think it seems arguably good, probably in place of Cagebreakers, but I like the gy interaction of KC.
Viscera does 2 things in the deck, artist interaction and the brief "oh crap, meliriapod" mindf*#&. Elesh is in there to have something to do if you happen to stall (or an opponent dropping a Boldwyr Heavyweights?). Curse kills their tokens, or yours for artist. Bond has good interaction with artist and warden for kill con. So far 2-0 vs. RG aggro (couldn't tell, had norin & friends both games and he conceded after 4 turns) and R Giants (? not sure on that one).
*edit* Forgot any kind of mainboard creature removal (Path)
On another note, I did find something interesting for the Fight list - Champion of Lambholt. The GG in the cost hurts, but I think they might warrant taking over the Cagebreaker's slot as they get big FAST with us and lets our swarm through their's w/ 1 chamber in play.
Here's the new Naya list I'm testing. I'm sure that there are better cards to use than Trackers, but they at least draw some of the heat away and can ping off their mana dorks and tokens if you don't hit a champion/Ajani G
Garruk has been helpful in: 1 - popping off a creature token/mana dork/soul sister etc, 2 - if he survives the next round fetch a champion of lambholt to swarm. Went 2-0 vs. WU Soul Sisters. Game 2 -Rather funny mirror first turns with Parish, but turn 2 they only dropped parish #2 whereas I had Parish #2 and Norin, swing for 3, they path my untapped parish, I get hit for 5 as they drop auriok champion, end, I drop 2 genesis on my turn. It goes downhill for them after that. I saw garruk twice that game and the 2nd time he survived to fetch lambholt and I had mana to drop him and another captain for gg.
I'm really up in the air about trying to decide which version to run, RWG or RWB. Lambholt has been an amazing game ender, more than I was anticipating. The 1GG cost is the only daunting thing, but the mana base has that covered pretty decently (9G, 9R, 10W). I have been kinda throwing myself into this deck creation and seriously hope it can make some appearances in events. I absolutely love the hilarity of a good deck that involves Norin.
I tried the Norin the Artist build and I didn't like it as much as my Wbr list that ran ~30 humans. I'd chalk it up to personal preference but the deck felt slow. The curve seemed a little weird at times but it got the job done. I was going to test it more, but then I played the Naya build.
That was effective, fast and I'd say one of the most fun decks I played. It was like playing Norin for the first time again. Mark of Asylum is cute with Ulvenwald Tracker but I'm not sure I'm going to keep it. When M13 comes out I think Rancor will go in that spot, for now I'm thinking either more O-Rings or something to protect the two champions. People sure do love to exile them.
I was thinking maybe Ranger's Guile, Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots to help with keeping Champion(s) alive. At least until Rancor comes out, which IMO should be a 3 of and maybe 2 greaves/boots in place of the trackers/mark.
I also don't know if it's just win-more or junk, but Beastmaster Ascension. I tried it in testing but it just seems underwhelming except when dropped when you have the 7 attackers that turn.
Also, Krosan Grip or similar should be somewhere in our SB vs. Torpor Orb. Ran into that issue during testing and it helps not having to waste an Oring on it.
I like running enough creatures to make Mass Appeal relevant because it seems like it could blossom here but it's been wishy-washy so far. Negate is nice because the deck's biggest problems are non-creature spells but Meddling Mage can be awesome if you name the right thing. I'll probably try it out a little more before going back to Wrb or Wrg but I figured I should throw this out there if anybody had suggestions.
Since we still are in the mass testing phase, I'll take a stab at WUR Norin. Meddling mage seems a must and unified will looks to be a possibility. Flying men anyone? Just joking. Delver seems ok for that list. List to come later today.
Here's what I have for a list so far that seems to do decent:
First test I did flopped, tried mixing Norin and ninjas...couldn't get it off the ground. 2nd time around I tried Lumengrid Sentinel with Mistblade and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, did better, but couldn't get there. Discovered in those 2 Mistblade ninjitsu cycling for U. Kinda fun to shell out triggers for U. Familiar's Ruse is a possibility, but mana intensive, and opted for Rune Snag instead. Grand Abolisher seems like he could be made useful in many Norin lists.
Naya - Tested Saffi...fail, but Eternal Witness seemed decent. Will try Grand Abolisher later.
At the very least, this testing has opened up some new channels and ideas at least for me to test. Possibly a quad colored deck (RGWU)? So far, imo, testing seems to point towards Norin the Champion (RGW) as the more consistent and resilient & Norin the Artist (RGB) the more explosive.
I know in testing, I actually find myself starting to miss Mark of Asylum from the MB lists. It just seemed to help keep our Wardens/low Champions alive.
Used what seemed to be the best of the toolbox that was in the 4 colors. Since U was available and we don't explode most times until Chamber hits play, Tezzeret was the choice for fetch and possible eventual token pump. Came across Damping Matrix while trolling other forums for SB. Doesn't hurt us at all and leaves it to planeswalkers as the answer to norin (for the most part). Tested vs bant aggro as normal, did well with Mistblade in early turns.
*Testing Results Update*
Norin the Varied (RGUW) has been pretty fun for me to run, and it won about 75%, about half of those without Norin, but it did struggle to get there at times. the low CC creatures keeps things going. I would at least recommend ppl to test it a couple times and see what they think on it. Probably needs a little mana base tweaking, but never really had too many mana issues.
Norin the Champion (RGW) has continued to thrive in most games, and still a favorite to run. I think maybe a singleton Time of Need in the SB for use when popping in Thalia so we don't have a dead draw. Most games lost were due to not having Norin or just couldn't keep a single champion out there. This version seems to put up the best fight (pun mildly intended) vs. everything else minus Combo. Tormod's Crypt seems to come to mind vs. an apparent increasing number of Glass Cannon Grisselbrand decks. Maybe even Chalice of the void for 2 (best to set after a chamber of course). I'm just really struggling with good ideas to counteract the meta. What would be our answer to Hivepact? Maybe Angel's Grace wouldn't be a bad idea in the SB. Sigarda works well vs. Emrakul, but I know I rarely see 5 mana in those games.
I just had a funny thought, singleton/duo of Doubling Season? Seems abusive/win-more, but ups the curve a little (the only 5 drops in the Champion list) and has a tendency to end the game sooner for us the longer it is out.
Interesting, I wouldn't have put it in if you hadn't said but I think it's certainly worth a try. I want to try Norin the Varied, I'll run it within the next few days. I'm thinking of returning to my original WR list and tweaking it. I like Fortune Thief, I used to have Ali From Cairo in my Imperial Painter toolbox.
I agree with headley, I think Odrik should be a good fit for us. Yet another excuse for us to possibly think about running a time of need in the RGW champion list. Probably best to fit in the 2x slot of Doubling Season, Ranger's guile, or Emerge Unscathed that just don't quite seem to get there for me. I'm havng the same kind of difficulty on where to put rancor in the list. I think in garruks slot, but there is an argument to that one. Anyone try knight of the white orchid or weathered wayfarer in RW yet?
Not the knight but I did run Wayfarer for a while. I liked him, but I didn't want to run too many of him to get in the way of Norin and the sisters and if he doesn't come early he loses some value. I'd say he fits some decks but he's only alright.
Reduced the land count to 19 because after running Norin for so long, many games you only need 1-2 land in your opening hand to get going, 3 to play out 90% of the deck. Once Odric becomes legal, I definitely see him being a 2-3 of in this version and potentially raising the land count back to 20-21. Only got the chance to play it against Karn Tron (seemed to be the only thing he could draw), and his spot removal took game 1 away from a blood moon misplay on my part. Game 2 was short and sweet, 4 turns in had 2 champion, norin, 1 warden and 2 chamber, 3rd in hand. Game 3 was a one land hand (and game) and he reset karn w/ 2 thalia and a chamber removed, followed by a disconnect. Probably not the best test, but it let me get the feel for having the enchantment mix.
Good choice on the land count. I've gone as low as 17 in Norin just because of how low the curve is but that seemed a little too low. As for land choice though I think I'd up the number of plains just because of how much white there is in the deck and Blood Moon. Maybe even just +2 plains and -2 Rugged Prarie.
Will test this later, Intangible Virtue seems like such an obvious choice I can't believe I didn't run it. All in all though it looks better than what I've been running Norin-Enchantment wise. I'll probably test less for the next two weeks because I'm trying to brew Slumbering Dragon.