I think the biggest argument for infect being "more consistant" than this deck is because it runs cards like vines of vastwood to protect its creatures from removal. Nivmagus can counter removal with pact of negation(which synergizes with the deck as it can just be eaten).
So to say they are equally countered by a single removal spell is a bit shortsighted.
If that was directed at me, I do not compare how the decks do against other decks, I compare them to how they do vs each other.
Infect is in no way impaired from a removal spell as this deck is.
However, vs infect they need to be on the play with a nut draw to win on turn 2, otherwise I get off, I have not lost to infect yet, but I've only had about 4 one match games, I cant say how infect would fare against this particular deck game 2.
Anyways, I'm really trying to think up cards for the SB that would help game 2 without disrupting the combo, so far switching the 4 Cavern of Souls for 4 Gemstone Cavern is the only thing I can think up. Anything else just ups the chance of the combo whiffing.
The deck works, its the sb for game 2 that needs a LOT of tinkering.
4 of everything except grapeshot makes it as consistent as it can get, thats why siding anything in sucks.
I'm running 1 Hallowed Fountain since I was getting screwed at times by having my mox tapped and not being able to shoot a retract. the last plain could be a fountain as well being that you don't really care about paying the 2 life since you win so fast.
Sigil is the equip I would side out game 2, but for what?
EDIT: Doesn't the image on grapeshot reflect Paladin throwing all the equips at the opponent? : )
zerodown, I'm running nothing but rainbow lands, which really helps with the mana issues, but really leaves you suspectible to Ghost Quarter.
As for your sideboard, what decks do you see in your meta that are giving you problems? Are you using an Affinity sideboard or a sideboard for protecting your combo? Pact of Negation and Turn Aside are good counters for protecting Puresteel Paladin. Mizzium Skin is also good for protecting Puresteel Paladin, though you do need to slow you combo down to be able to cast Turn Aside and Mizzium Skin.
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What transformable sideboard beats all the creature removal most decks are going to be keeping/bringing in for paladin?
It would be hard to go full aggro enough to overwhelm it. Etched Champion for sure, easy metal craft and go for the beats. And always Arcbound Ravager to make big swings on Champion
Would Leonin Elder help against burn at all? Or would it dilute too much?
zerodown, Repeal, Shattering Spree, and Smelt are all one mana answers to Chalice of the Void. There are various 2 mana answers as well. I would recommend Repeal as a sideboard card as it gets rid of various problem permanents and replaces itself upon resolving.
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What transformable sideboard beats all the creature removal most decks are going to be keeping/bringing in for paladin?
It would be hard to go full aggro enough to overwhelm it. Etched Champion for sure, easy metal craft and go for the beats. And always Arcbound Ravager to make big swings on Champion
Would Leonin Elder help against burn at all? Or would it dilute too much?
Just throwing out ideas, the deck really needs a great sideboard.
I wouldn't count too much on many artifacts coming in on game 2 as without Paladin the cantrips just dont cantrip.
I'd definitely leave Bone Saw (+1 Power) and Sigil of Distinction (+X power) on the main as well as the Accorder's Shields (+3 toughness & vigilance) and maybe (just maybe) the Paradise Mantles.
as for the sb package, this seems like a good starting point for a transformable sideboard against sideboarded removal?
What if we ran a sideboard with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and combo protection? Do you guys think it would be viable? Otherwise, I would stick the transformable Affinity sideboard.
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What if we ran a sideboard with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and combo protection? Do you guys think it would be viable? Otherwise, I would stick the transformable Affinity sideboard.
Anything above 3 mana is too hard to get into play imho, as the deck plays so few mana sources.
Anything above 3 mana is too hard to get into play imho, as the deck plays so few mana sources.
Which is why the nexuses serve a double purpose on the sideboard. (And maybe Blinkmoth might be more useful since I'm gong for the juggular with Champions and Ravagers and Platings.)
Anyways, the tezz idea sounds funky, we could try a planeswalker sideboard as well, we got a rainbow mana base, so we could play various different walkers, I'll try to make some kind of walker sb list after work.
EDIT: Just some random talk but if this is going to get competitive and since it is artifact based it is a good idea to have many different sb variants because that way at a tournament your opponents won't know for certain which variant you are playing. I mean they won't be able to say "ah you're running cheerios so your sideboard is X" cause your sideboard might be x, w or Z. get it?
Say there are lists with affinity sb, planeswalker sb, infect sb, et cetera...
EDIT 2: Infect sb? Hmmmm... 4 Inkmoth, 4 Mirran Mettle, et cetera... see how easy it is to shift an artifact based deck? lol.
I want to work on various sideboards, this is interesting.
Surely the best 'counterspell' for this deck is just Apostle's Blessing?
I can see that coming in on Game 2 along with Gemstone Caverns if one were to go for the storming grapeshot on game 2 as well. The problem is, removal is not the only answer to this deck, Chaliice of the Void kills it, so does Trinisphere, et cetera.
I was skeptical of Pact of Negation because of our mana base, I rarely get up to 5 mana, I win or lose before reaching 5 mana usually so pact would be a dead card IMO.
EDIT:
Tip - Never use Spoils on turn 1 to fetch Paladin, Wait till the opponent's EOT. That way they can't thoughtsieze your Paladin.
Apostle's Blessing costs 1 mana; if you run a 1-mana answer, it should be Silence.
The point with Pact of Negation is that you never have to pay for it. Drop the Pally the same turn you go off, Pact their removal spell.
The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of people will tap out eventually. They'll think your turn 2 win was a fluke, or if you sandbag it a couple turns, that you don't have it.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
First I'd like to say how awesome this deck is. Secondly, I was thinking about Muddle the mixture as a way to tutor Puresteel Paladin without Spoils of the vault as some of you mentioned you thought spoils was dangerous. It's much slower however.
It's slower, and a little harder on the manabase. I run nothing but gold lands and a single plains, but 3 of those (Cavern of Souls) only tap colors for cretures, 4 of them (Glimmervoid) are dangerous to put down before going off, and 4 of them (Gemstone Mine) have a limited use and can't really hang out until turn 3 or 4.
That leaves the singleton City of Brass I've started running. It's a better tutor, but I don't really want to slow the deck down two turns AND jeopardize my lands.
Sideboard: If you run the transformational Affinity board, side out 4 Spoils, 4 Probes, and all but 1 Grapeshot. Take any leftover slots from the equipments of your choice. I would still be worried about Chalice@0, but people should've sided out their board wipes, you still have an ok chance at just going off, and you can side in 10-12 creatures and be very aggressive. I might only run 3 Etched Champion and maybe bring in a Flayer Husk or two instead. Retract can be board protection instead of a combo piece, which is pretty awesome.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Apostle's Blessing costs 1 mana; if you run a 1-mana answer, it should be Silence.
The point with Pact of Negation is that you never have to pay for it. Drop the Pally the same turn you go off, Pact their removal spell.
The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of people will tap out eventually. They'll think your turn 2 win was a fluke, or if you sandbag it a couple turns, that you don't have it.
Ah! I get it now. I thought the Pact was to counter their combo on Game 2, didn't realize it was to protect Paladin. Makes much more sense now and if you put it lke that then that really is the best (free) protection we can run.
On the tap out thing, well thats what I meant when I said "dropping the Paladin is the single most important skill". For instance, my last match earlier was vs a Red deck:
Turn 1 He plays a mountain. I play Glimmervoid and Opal then spoils for paladin. Turn 2 He taps out to destroy my land (shrine). I play hallowed fountain but hold on to my Pal because I would have needed to drop 2 equips to activate mox and Pal wouldn't get off. Turn 3 he drops another mountain and passes the turn. I played a land but held on to my Pal for fear he would tap a mountain and bolt it. Turn 4 he drops a mountain and taps out to play Shivan wumpus, i let it stay. In my turn I dropped the Paladin, started the cantrips, drew another Paladin and a land, dropped the second paladin, kept cantripping tapped mox for retract and got the storm off easy.
Its rather surprising how easy you can get the second pal out once it goes off, with two out there is virtually no way the combo will whiff.
Its the only two sources I could find with the same idea.
EDIT2: Pic vs Valakut, he was on the play.
Turn 1 he plays Valakut. I play Shirne, Mox, 2 equips and Paladin. Turn 2 he plays a land and sakura tribe elder, I started the cantrips, retracted, dropped a second paladin, double cantrips into grapeshot for 19.
Those lists look fine, but from looking at them i'd say the first list is not only slower but whiffs regularly, on the second list they are kind of discussing how to find Paladin (they dont have SPoils) and keep it alive.
Notice in the spain link, in one of the posts there is a spoiler, within that spoiler is a picture of someone apparently taking the deck to a tournament, but the comment on it are that they depend on multiple grapeshots to finish the job, not just one.
The affinity sb didn't convince me, the opening hands were too goddamn bad, affinity is affinity for a reason lol. I'm working right now on a planeswalker sb. Its looking sweet, the rough list is:
the rough plan: Paladin will be sideboarded out along with 9 equips and 2 retracts. That way any removal sided in is automatically disabled. Then I play the remaning equips for free to activate mox ASAP, Spoils will be used to fetch the rings as the top priority, it will fetch mox second and a planewalkers third, the goal is to drop tamiyo, ajani or both to keep most everything tapped with the rings help until ajani gets the ultimate off or tezzeret starts pumping 5/5s.
Sound good? I'll test it tomorrow all day and comment on it.
Have I mentioned how much I love this deck?: Pic vs Storm!!!
Turn 1, he plays Gitaxian Probe, then steam vents. I played Godless Shrine. Turn 2 he plays Goblin Electromancer, I play Glimmervoid, Paladin, start the cantrips, draw a mox off the last cantrip (6th), retract, restart cantrips, reveal grapeshot to opponent halfway through, he mocks me saying "you still need mana" to which I respond "don't worry, watch", I keep the cantrips going, retracted yet again to find the third mox, drop mox, tap for red, drop mox legend rule, drop mox tap for red, grapeshot.
The Legacy list looks terrible. There's absolutely no reason to run this in Legacy when you could be playing Glimpse of Nature, which is my pet Legacy deck and the reason I built this. Aside from that, 17 lands is way too many, it looks extremely budget, and it has no tutor or Retract effect. Cheeri0s has been around for ages in Legacy, thanks to my close friend, and there's not really a better engine for it than Glimpse.
Anyways. Glad everyone is enjoying this. The amount of support and interest has been overwhelming, but most of all, it seems everybody who picks it up is having fun.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
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Possible, but it wouldn't be as fast or consistent. There's no mechanism in Modern to get AN out by turn 2-3 consistently, so you'd be better off playing Angel's Grace/Ad Nauseam with Lightning Storm.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Those lists look fine, but from looking at them i'd say the first list is not only slower but whiffs regularly, on the second list they are kind of discussing how to find Paladin (they dont have SPoils) and keep it alive.
Notice in the spain link, in one of the posts there is a spoiler, within that spoiler is a picture of someone apparently taking the deck to a tournament, but the comment on it are that they depend on multiple grapeshots to finish the job, not just one.
The affinity sb didn't convince me, the opening hands were too goddamn bad, affinity is affinity for a reason lol. I'm working right now on a planeswalker sb. Its looking sweet, the rough list is:
the rough plan: Paladin will be sideboarded out along with 9 equips and 2 retracts. That way any removal sided in is automatically disabled. Then I play the remaning equips for free to activate mox ASAP, Spoils will be used to fetch the rings as the top priority, it will fetch mox second and a planewalkers third, the goal is to drop tamiyo, ajani or both to keep most everything tapped with the rings help until ajani gets the ultimate off or tezzeret starts pumping 5/5s.
Sound good? I'll test it tomorrow all day and comment on it.
I don't like the idea, sorry.
Without the option to combo off, or draw a bunch of cards, because you sided the paladin out, you really have to rely on the Planeswalkers.
If you don't have a mox some decks kill you before you drop a walker. And if you manage to get one out, I doubt it will live for long. If your opponent has more than one creature, the tapping down effects won't help you.
To me winning of planeswalkers seems much harder than comboing through removal.
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If that was directed at me, I do not compare how the decks do against other decks, I compare them to how they do vs each other.
Infect is in no way impaired from a removal spell as this deck is.
However, vs infect they need to be on the play with a nut draw to win on turn 2, otherwise I get off, I have not lost to infect yet, but I've only had about 4 one match games, I cant say how infect would fare against this particular deck game 2.
Anyways, I'm really trying to think up cards for the SB that would help game 2 without disrupting the combo, so far switching the 4 Cavern of Souls for 4 Gemstone Cavern is the only thing I can think up. Anything else just ups the chance of the combo whiffing.
The deck works, its the sb for game 2 that needs a LOT of tinkering.
This is the list I've been running:
3 Glimmervoid
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bone Saw
4 Spiderslik Net
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Kite Shield
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Mox Opal
4 Retract
4 Spoils of the Vault
3 Grapeshot
4 of everything except grapeshot makes it as consistent as it can get, thats why siding anything in sucks.
I'm running 1 Hallowed Fountain since I was getting screwed at times by having my mox tapped and not being able to shoot a retract. the last plain could be a fountain as well being that you don't really care about paying the 2 life since you win so fast.
Sigil is the equip I would side out game 2, but for what?
EDIT: Doesn't the image on grapeshot reflect Paladin throwing all the equips at the opponent? : )
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
As for your sideboard, what decks do you see in your meta that are giving you problems? Are you using an Affinity sideboard or a sideboard for protecting your combo? Pact of Negation and Turn Aside are good counters for protecting Puresteel Paladin. Mizzium Skin is also good for protecting Puresteel Paladin, though you do need to slow you combo down to be able to cast Turn Aside and Mizzium Skin.
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I seriously think this needs a drastically transformable sideboard, its just too weak to sb answers.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
It would be hard to go full aggro enough to overwhelm it. Etched Champion for sure, easy metal craft and go for the beats. And always Arcbound Ravager to make big swings on Champion
Would Leonin Elder help against burn at all? Or would it dilute too much?
Glaze Fiend could get lethal quickly.
Just throwing out ideas, the deck really needs a great sideboard.
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I wouldn't count too much on many artifacts coming in on game 2 as without Paladin the cantrips just dont cantrip.
I'd definitely leave Bone Saw (+1 Power) and Sigil of Distinction (+X power) on the main as well as the Accorder's Shields (+3 toughness & vigilance) and maybe (just maybe) the Paradise Mantles.
as for the sb package, this seems like a good starting point for a transformable sideboard against sideboarded removal?
4 Faithless Looting To dig through whatever you cant side out.
3 Etched Champion protection from all colors
3 Invisible Stalker Hexproof & Unblockable
2 Geist of Saint Traft Hexproof & a 4/4 beater
3 Sword of War and Peace Extra damage and life gain.
or
3 Cranial Plating a nice target for Spoils for a last swing.
the faithless could be anything else, maybe even Ravager.
EDIT: I'll run variants of this until sunday and see what happens:
4 Etched Champion
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Cranial Plating
You can try and beat with Champ and if it fails drop everything unto Nexus for a 2 turn kill.
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Anything above 3 mana is too hard to get into play imho, as the deck plays so few mana sources.
Which is why the nexuses serve a double purpose on the sideboard. (And maybe Blinkmoth might be more useful since I'm gong for the juggular with Champions and Ravagers and Platings.)
Anyways, the tezz idea sounds funky, we could try a planeswalker sideboard as well, we got a rainbow mana base, so we could play various different walkers, I'll try to make some kind of walker sb list after work.
EDIT: Just some random talk but if this is going to get competitive and since it is artifact based it is a good idea to have many different sb variants because that way at a tournament your opponents won't know for certain which variant you are playing. I mean they won't be able to say "ah you're running cheerios so your sideboard is X" cause your sideboard might be x, w or Z. get it?
Say there are lists with affinity sb, planeswalker sb, infect sb, et cetera...
EDIT 2: Infect sb? Hmmmm... 4 Inkmoth, 4 Mirran Mettle, et cetera... see how easy it is to shift an artifact based deck? lol.
I want to work on various sideboards, this is interesting.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
I can see that coming in on Game 2 along with Gemstone Caverns if one were to go for the storming grapeshot on game 2 as well. The problem is, removal is not the only answer to this deck, Chaliice of the Void kills it, so does Trinisphere, et cetera.
I was skeptical of Pact of Negation because of our mana base, I rarely get up to 5 mana, I win or lose before reaching 5 mana usually so pact would be a dead card IMO.
EDIT:
Tip - Never use Spoils on turn 1 to fetch Paladin, Wait till the opponent's EOT. That way they can't thoughtsieze your Paladin.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
The point with Pact of Negation is that you never have to pay for it. Drop the Pally the same turn you go off, Pact their removal spell.
The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of people will tap out eventually. They'll think your turn 2 win was a fluke, or if you sandbag it a couple turns, that you don't have it.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
That leaves the singleton City of Brass I've started running. It's a better tutor, but I don't really want to slow the deck down two turns AND jeopardize my lands.
Sideboard: If you run the transformational Affinity board, side out 4 Spoils, 4 Probes, and all but 1 Grapeshot. Take any leftover slots from the equipments of your choice. I would still be worried about Chalice@0, but people should've sided out their board wipes, you still have an ok chance at just going off, and you can side in 10-12 creatures and be very aggressive. I might only run 3 Etched Champion and maybe bring in a Flayer Husk or two instead. Retract can be board protection instead of a combo piece, which is pretty awesome.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
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Big Johnny.
Ah! I get it now. I thought the Pact was to counter their combo on Game 2, didn't realize it was to protect Paladin. Makes much more sense now and if you put it lke that then that really is the best (free) protection we can run.
On the tap out thing, well thats what I meant when I said "dropping the Paladin is the single most important skill". For instance, my last match earlier was vs a Red deck:
Turn 1 He plays a mountain. I play Glimmervoid and Opal then spoils for paladin. Turn 2 He taps out to destroy my land (shrine). I play hallowed fountain but hold on to my Pal because I would have needed to drop 2 equips to activate mox and Pal wouldn't get off. Turn 3 he drops another mountain and passes the turn. I played a land but held on to my Pal for fear he would tap a mountain and bolt it. Turn 4 he drops a mountain and taps out to play Shivan wumpus, i let it stay. In my turn I dropped the Paladin, started the cantrips, drew another Paladin and a land, dropped the second paladin, kept cantripping tapped mox for retract and got the storm off easy.
Its rather surprising how easy you can get the second pal out once it goes off, with two out there is virtually no way the combo will whiff.
EDIT: did some research.
the deck has been tried in legacy without Retract or Spoils: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=813504
A group from Spain also was apparently trying to break it, these ones had retract, but no spoils to fetch paladin: http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8320
Its the only two sources I could find with the same idea.
EDIT2: Pic vs Valakut, he was on the play.
Turn 1 he plays Valakut. I play Shirne, Mox, 2 equips and Paladin. Turn 2 he plays a land and sakura tribe elder, I started the cantrips, retracted, dropped a second paladin, double cantrips into grapeshot for 19.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Notice in the spain link, in one of the posts there is a spoiler, within that spoiler is a picture of someone apparently taking the deck to a tournament, but the comment on it are that they depend on multiple grapeshots to finish the job, not just one.
The affinity sb didn't convince me, the opening hands were too goddamn bad, affinity is affinity for a reason lol. I'm working right now on a planeswalker sb. Its looking sweet, the rough list is:
4 Rings of Brighthearth
3 City of Brass
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
the rough plan: Paladin will be sideboarded out along with 9 equips and 2 retracts. That way any removal sided in is automatically disabled. Then I play the remaning equips for free to activate mox ASAP, Spoils will be used to fetch the rings as the top priority, it will fetch mox second and a planewalkers third, the goal is to drop tamiyo, ajani or both to keep most everything tapped with the rings help until ajani gets the ultimate off or tezzeret starts pumping 5/5s.
Sound good? I'll test it tomorrow all day and comment on it.
Have I mentioned how much I love this deck?: Pic vs Storm!!!
Turn 1, he plays Gitaxian Probe, then steam vents. I played Godless Shrine. Turn 2 he plays Goblin Electromancer, I play Glimmervoid, Paladin, start the cantrips, draw a mox off the last cantrip (6th), retract, restart cantrips, reveal grapeshot to opponent halfway through, he mocks me saying "you still need mana" to which I respond "don't worry, watch", I keep the cantrips going, retracted yet again to find the third mox, drop mox, tap for red, drop mox legend rule, drop mox tap for red, grapeshot.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Anyways. Glad everyone is enjoying this. The amount of support and interest has been overwhelming, but most of all, it seems everybody who picks it up is having fun.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I don't like the idea, sorry.
Without the option to combo off, or draw a bunch of cards, because you sided the paladin out, you really have to rely on the Planeswalkers.
If you don't have a mox some decks kill you before you drop a walker. And if you manage to get one out, I doubt it will live for long. If your opponent has more than one creature, the tapping down effects won't help you.
To me winning of planeswalkers seems much harder than comboing through removal.