Also being worked on is a slower, more stable build that eschews the dangers of Spoils in favor of Muddle the Mixture, which serves both as a tutor AND as protection.
The game plan of this deck is incredibly straightforward. Play Paladin on turn 1 or 2, draw your deck, win with Grapeshot. Here's how you make that happen:
1) Mulligan to either Puresteel Paladin or Spoils of the Vault. Preferably a land or two as well, but those are the crucial cards.
2) Drop the Paladin as early as you can safely stick him.
3) Start playing equipments and drawing cards until you find a Mox Opal and a Retract. If you were already holding one or both of those, even better.
4) Cast Retract off Mox Opal, and then start drawing cards again. The first Retract should easily find you a second Retract, which will draw you even more cards and most likely your 3rd and 4th Retracts.
5) You should now have about 20-40 cards in hand, an untapped Opal, and a Grapeshot. If you run Simian Spirit Guide, use it. If you run Salvage Titan, tap your Opal for mana and then sacrifice it to cast your Titan. Play a second Mox Opal and cast Grapeshot. If you run neither of these, tap your Opal for mana, play a second Opal and sac the first (THANK YOU NEW LEGEND RULE), and then win.
6) You win!
Card Choices:
Puresteel Paladin: Pretty obvious, he's the engine and is irreplaceable. Vedalken Archmage and Riddlesmith are both options to support him as 1-2 ofs, but neither is nearly as good.
Spoils of the Vault: Also irreplaceable, and preferably no less than 4-of. Running 8 Turn 2 Paladins is sickening.
Plunge into Darkness: As an additional, or less recommended, replacement tutor. Costs one more, but never kills you and always grabs something.
Noxious Revival: Get back Paladin through removal, get back Retract midcombo, put a card on top and Spoils...Revival is kind of an auto-4-of in most lists now.
Retract: Draws us X cards where X is the number of Equipments we have, for free. Auto-4-of. Can be replaced by Hurkyl's Recall, but it's not as good.
Hurkyl's Recall: Additional, expensive Retracts that can splash hate Affinity and be tutored by Muddle the Mixture. I usually run at least one sideboard.
Equipments: You really want all 24 of these, and possibly some 1-mana ones as well like Golem-Skin Gauntlets.
Lightning Greaves: Protects Paladin, allows for immediate Paradise Mantle use, and draws cards midcombo. Always worth at least looking at for any build.
Mox Opal: Free mana, makes Retract free. 4-of no questions asked. With the new Legend Rule, it's absolutely bonkers.
Simian Spirit Guide: Makes free mana for when you're going off. If you run it, 1-2 of to cast Grapeshot.
Salvage Titan: Provides both mana when going off, and facebeating if you can't go off or fizzled. Very flexible, very powerful, probably worth at least one slot.
Cavern of Souls: Winning through countermagic is pretty good for a combo deck.
Plains: A miser Plains is a possibility in some builds, to minimize the pain of Path and Ghost Quarter.
Erayo/Canonist: This is an experimental sideboard plan to bring in. The idea of locking people down so that I can get rolling again sooner seems great. Also protects Paladin from a single removal spell. It's worth noting that with SSG, a Turn 1 Erayo flip is possible.
Muddle the Mixture: Tutors up Paladin, Greaves, Plunge, Grapeshot, and Hurkyl's Recall. Doesn't fetch everything, is slower, and isn't instant speed, but allows for much more reliability in the face of hate while still killing Turn 3-4.
FAQ
Since some questions and criticisms are recurring more and more frequently despite being answered, I'm going to put the answers right here up front for everyone to see. Here goes.
Is this deck as easy to pilot as it looks?
Not by a long shot! This deck excels in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Playing mind games with your opponent so that they tap out, knowing when to mulligan ("Mull to Pally/Spoils" is just a hard and fast rule that we start with), knowing when to stop going off and try again next turn, knowing when to Spoils and what to Spoils for. There are layers and layers of intricacies that don't seem obvious at first glance. This deck has potential, but before you go off and play an FNM or something, practice with it a lot.
This deck seems wildly inconsistent. I mean, aren't you gambling everything on having a Spoils or Paladin in your opening hand?
No, not really. First of all, it's not that much of a gamble. The odds of opening with Spoils OR Pally are about 65% before mulligans. After taking mulligans into account, and assuming you're brave enough to go to 4 (you should be), the odds are around 96.3%.
Secondly, we can open without Spoils/Paladin and still have decent odds of finding one. Let's say you took that mull to 4 and still didn't see Paladin. Well, you know have about a 48% of seeing one in the next 3 or 4 turns, depending on whether you are on the play or draw. This doesn't include drawing extra cards from Probes, so you're pretty much on house odds at that point.
Thirdly, though it's more unlikely, we are capable of winning without Puresteel Paladin. It is occasionally possible (and hilarious) to simply play out your hand of equipments and Mox Opal, play a Retract or two, and reach lethal Storm right there. This becomes especially relevant when your opponent plays fetchlands and shocklands. Versions that run Salvage Titan can also win through a beatdown, but it's not recommended to rely on this so much as fall back on it.
Does this deck die to spot removal?
Yes and no. Spot removal hurts our gameplan, a lot. That said, we have ways around it. All spot removal can be beat if your opponent taps out. Most spotremoval can be beat by winning turn 2 on the play, before they have 2 mana up. That actually only leaves Path, Bolt, and Dismember to worry about, really. Of those, Bolt and Dismember can be beaten by playing Pally turn 1, or after a tapout, and equipping him with Shields, of which we have plenty. And all Spot removal can be beat by drawing 2 or more Spoils/Paladins. (For reference, the odds of 2 or more in the top 10 cards is about 39.95%.)
Does this deck die to countermagic?
Absolutely not.
1) We run Cavern of Souls. It hinders us slightly with Spoils hands, but it's worth it to win through blue.
2) Most counters are not online when we are going off.
3) Of the two main counters that are online, Remand and Mana Leak, Remand is the more popular and is much, much less relevant to us. Putting Paladin back in our hand instead of wasting him is not a good gameplan for control.
What if you don't draw two lands to play Paladin? I mean, the lists here only run 11-13 lands.
It happens sometimes, but not enough to deter us. The odds of opening with no lands, and then not drawing a single land for 3 turns is about 5%. The odds of opening with 1 land and not seeing another land OR Spoils are about 11%. Not to mention the fact that Opal can act as a second land to get you started. More free mana would be better, but we do alright with what we have.
Isn't Spoils going to kill you in like, 90% of games?
Not even close. Spoils is a much, much better (and safer) card than everyone gives it credit for. The psychology of it scares away almost everybody, but in reality, the numbers say that it will kill you in about 8-10% of games if you play it Turn 1, on the play, naming a 4-of. If you want to play this deck, overcome your psychological fear of Spoils, and learn how to use it effectively.
Right, but what if it exiles all of your Grapeshots?
This scenario is very unlikely, and is the main reason we run more than 1 Grapeshot. Unfortunately, this is one of the few questions I can't give you hard numbers on, as it is exceptionally difficult to calculate; I wouldn't even know where to begin. Suffice to say, it doesn't happen nearly as often as just dying outright to Spoils.
So...if these numbers are all accurate, does that mean this is tournament viable?
Well, we aren't sure. I think it is, but I don't have any reports to back that up. We've had a couple people go undefeated at local events, and a couple people do...less than stellar. It seems like it could perform well, since it is significantly faster than other combo decks, but it does have a glaring weakness to one of the most common types of spells in the game. What we really need is for people to play it in tournaments to find out, but so far only one has been confident enough to try, and I can't take it anywhere until I get money to build it.
TL;DR: I will answer this question better when I have enough evidence one way or the other.
Current tech being discussed:
Leyline of Anticipation is a possibility against all hate except Turn 1 discard. It is very high risk/high reward, being a dead card mid-combo but allowing for supreme protection.
Most artifact sources of protection are being called into question. Spellskite, Defense Grid, Swiftfoot Boots, etc. all get bounced when you Retract, leaving a wide opening for your opponent.
There is an extremely strong consensus that all Paladin lists should run 4 Noxious Revival. It is infinitely flexible, powerful protection, and almost never a dead draw. Consider it as much a core card as Opal or Retract.
The variance of Spoils has been raised as a concern for this deck's chances in the competitive scene. While low, the odds are existent, and in a large event with 9-10 rounds, will punish the deck's risk/reward philosophy. Muddle is a strong candidate for alternate or additional tutors, but Spoils is still my personal recommendation for smaller events or really lucky people.
This deck could always run summoner's pact if it is certain it can go off.
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Modern: Modern is Bad
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Summoner's Pact only fetches reen creatures; it's a common mistake.
So far the deck has been highly reliable. The odds of going off in the first couple turns are the same as Legacy Cheeri0s, since you run the same 4 Glimpse+3 Tutor package (strongly considering going to 4). The odds of whiffing are slightly higher, since unlike Legacy, you have to run 10+ lands to be stable, but you trade that for a free Scapegoat effect, which is bonkers.
I've only played 3 real games with it so far, but they were all turn 2 wins. I don't know what the first deck was, as he played a Hierarch and then left. The second deck was Delver that tapped out on turn 2. Goldfishing is giving me similar results. Take the goldfish report with a little salt, as I didn't keep track of each game and thus suffer memory bias, but I do believe it's quite fast and consistent.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Sorry, but I can't believe you. This deck looks just really inconsistent and is highly unlikely to get turn 2 wins imho.
To win turn two you would need to start with a first turn Memnite + Paradise Mantle + equip or you need a Mox and play Paladin turn 1 or you need to draw into all three Mox Opal throughout the combo.
If you don't meet one of those requirements, you can't get the two mana for a grapeshot. Maybe I am only missing something, but at the moment I can't see the turn 2 win.
You are afraid that a creature may not be summoning sick to produce mana with a Paradise Mantle and that Mox Opal is legendary?
Retract is also not free, it costs a blue mana. Ok, it is kind of free if you have a mox, but only kind of.
The deck also just auto loses to a removal on paladin or to a Stony Silence, wich is almost in every second sideboard.
The deck cantrips for free until it can cast a storm spell for lethal.
It does this by playing the Puresteel Paladin and casting free equipment to draw cards, effectively cantripping while racking up a storm count.
I don't like the Storm Entity finisher, it can just be chumped with no way to remove blockers. Multiple Grapeshot or Empty the Warrensare probably safer bets.
Spoils of the Vault as your tutor makes running a low win con count dangerous.
Ok, I just gold fished this about 10 times or so in Cockatrice.
And to my suprise it really gets the turn 2 or 3 wins about 50% of the time. You really draw a ton of cards.
But the other 50% of the time, would have lost if it where against a real opponent because I would not draw into a second land after I mulliganed multiple times to get a Paladin on my starting hand, or because I simply fizzled in the middle of the combo (I didn't draw into anymore equipment or draw spells), or because I lost half of my life to Probe, Street Wraith, Spoils and fetching turn 1 for the Godless Shrine.
It can work, but it seems much to inconsistent to me. The deck also seems very fragile, as it loses to so many commonly played cards. I would never take this to any tournament, but it can be nice for the kitchen table.
Yes, turn 2 wins are pretty common. I'm getting more than 50% for T2 alone, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but it's probably because I've been playing Legacy Cheeri0s for nigh on 3 years now and have had a lot of time to learn the ins and outs.
I see very few "commonly played cards" it loses to. Within 2 turns, even on the draw, your opponent has:
No opponent will expect to need those open in game 1, and if they have it game 2, they probably won't have mana for it (except Path) in game 3. This is exactly how I beat the Delver deck. He had turn 2 Remand in game 2, but thought my earlier turn 2 win was a fluke and tapped out into it. Also, once I have a sideboard together, it will have 4 Pact of Negation in it.
I'm currently using the following list. I like to diversify wincons with most of my Cheeri0s lists, but I agree that may not be as important in Modern.
Maxing out Spoils to maximize turn 2 Paladins, maxing out Retracts because it wins the game, and losing Wraith because I don't feel like it adds enough while clashing with Spoils.
Notes to some other comments:
Retract is free if you bounce an Opal. You do not autolose to Stony Silence. In fact, you win through it pretty easily. Combo off w/o using Opal mana, stop, next turn Retract off a gold land, replay stuff, Grapeshot. It's not an obstacle at all, just slows you down a turn. Oh, and also, how difficult is it to side in cheap enchantment hate? In White?
Traditional Storm is not only slower by at least 2 turns, it is also easier to disrupt. Trying to win on turn 4 means that there are many more answers available for it, and that it is easier to see coming.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I don't have any experience except for the few goldfishs I did, but you usually mulligan till you have Spoils or Paladin in hand and mana to cast it, right?
If that's the case and your opponent starts with an Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize, things look pretty bad for you.
Also I don't know how a sideboard would look like... you can't reduce the count of 0-mana equipments by much it seems to me.
A thing you could maybe change, would be to replace a plains with another Gemstone Mine, doesn't hurt really, but helps in playing a Spoils or Retrace.
I would only add Gemstone Caverns if I were concerned about an opponent having two mana when I go off (I'm not, really). All it basically does in ensure I'm always on the play.
On a sidenote: I can't believe I'm such an idiot. 4 Cavern of Souls DUH.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
On a sidenote: I can't believe I'm such an idiot. 4 Cavern of Souls DUH.
I was going to suggest that. It disables U control and most decks that use counters, if they cant stop the paladin they wont be able to stop all the equips that will follow a Paladin either.
Being that I played a Paladin deck up until the last rotation and wanting to keep playing it got me into modern, I had to test this. Its a sweet deck, it gets off without much trouble and Mox Opal + Retract is gold, I'm running 4 of each as you can vault for any missing piece (Pal, Retract or Mox).
It is indeed very weak to removal, unless you got another Paladin ready or enough life for a Vault you're pretty much dead if you lose the Paladin, you either win or go home so dropping Paladin safely is the single most important skill to pilot this deck. As sideboarding anything weakens the combo I cant contemplate a SB unless it is a 180 sb. Side out the grapeshots and most of the 0cmc equips for Etched Champions and more aggro equips. Since they will most likely pack removal for your Paladin Game 2, you should be packing more creatures, and since the Paladin will be the first to bite the dust, all the 0cmc equips will just be a burden. I imagine it like a surprise storming grapeshot game 1 then after they weaken their deck siding answers in, you shift your deck into aggro mode or something else. Its risky trying to pull it a second time post-sideboard, to do it I think Gemstone Cavern is mandatory on game 2 (With some luck you might start with it on field then Turn 1 Cavern of Souls into Paladin).
An Affinity sideboard actually sounds hilariously doable. Most decks will side out board wipes (if they have any) for spot removal. Ravager, Etched Champion, and Cranial Plating would become amazing.
And the best part is you don't have to side it in against matchups you already autowin, like Tron.
If I don't side into Affinity, I'm going to side into 4 Inquisition of Kozilek+4 Pact of Negation. Or maybe a 3/3 split. Yes, it dilutes the combo, but it's very solid protection, and makes a turn 3 win much easier through hate.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
i don't see how retract+opal nets you mana. sure it's free but generally we need more mana.
also thinking riddlesmith might help a bit with comboing. just saying.
last but not least spoils is a dangerous card.
i don't see how retract+opal nets you mana. sure it's free but generally we need more mana.
also thinking riddlesmith might help a bit with comboing. just saying.
last but not least spoils is a dangerous card.
Spoils is dangerous, I've lost twice to it in about 20 games, but it has won me every other game it didn't lose, I play it turn one to fetch the missing piece (targets in order of priority: Pal, Mox, Retract).
Retract+Opal doesn't give more mana, it just lets you play retracts for free then once you run out of retracts, drop opal once more to activate grapeshot.
Riddlesmith should be tested, I ran it in my paladin lists, but IMO it wouldn't work here, he just filters cards trading 1-for-1 so you'll eventually just run out of cards to retract or filter. In fact IMO trying to modify the deck will just reduce your chances of getting off.
We don't need more mana, all we need is a turn 1-2 Paladin that can tap turn 3 with a Paradise Manbtle a mox and a land, if you don't get that the next best thing is to draw into 3 opals on the combo so you can tap one for R, play the other to destroy both, play the last and tap for any color to activate grapeshot. A turn 1 Paladin or the trick with the 3 moxes is what lets you go off on turn 2 as well.
I added 1 Hallowed Fountain, sometimes to go off you need to tap your mox and its annoying picking up your deck and not having a U source to retract.
3 lands and mox on turn 3 is one mana more than neccesary, you can go off with 2 lands and mox then draw into the 3rd land, or like I said, tap a Paladin with Mantle.
If left unchecked, turn 2-3 is where it wins, tested and proven.
Let's try 2 mana.
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Plunge into Darkness
4 Retract
4 Noxious Revival
2 Grapeshot
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Bone Saw
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Kite Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Glimmervoid
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Pact of Negation
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Storm Entity
Also being worked on is a slower, more stable build that eschews the dangers of Spoils in favor of Muddle the Mixture, which serves both as a tutor AND as protection.
4 Retract
4 Mox Opal
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Noxious Revival
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Grapeshot
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Kite Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
3 Bone Saw
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Forbidden Orchard
4 Spellskite
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Storm Entity
6 ???
The game plan of this deck is incredibly straightforward. Play Paladin on turn 1 or 2, draw your deck, win with Grapeshot. Here's how you make that happen:
1) Mulligan to either Puresteel Paladin or Spoils of the Vault. Preferably a land or two as well, but those are the crucial cards.
2) Drop the Paladin as early as you can safely stick him.
3) Start playing equipments and drawing cards until you find a Mox Opal and a Retract. If you were already holding one or both of those, even better.
4) Cast Retract off Mox Opal, and then start drawing cards again. The first Retract should easily find you a second Retract, which will draw you even more cards and most likely your 3rd and 4th Retracts.
5) You should now have about 20-40 cards in hand, an untapped Opal, and a Grapeshot. If you run Simian Spirit Guide, use it. If you run Salvage Titan, tap your Opal for mana and then sacrifice it to cast your Titan. Play a second Mox Opal and cast Grapeshot. If you run neither of these, tap your Opal for mana, play a second Opal and sac the first (THANK YOU NEW LEGEND RULE), and then win.
6) You win!
Card Choices:
Puresteel Paladin: Pretty obvious, he's the engine and is irreplaceable. Vedalken Archmage and Riddlesmith are both options to support him as 1-2 ofs, but neither is nearly as good.
Spoils of the Vault: Also irreplaceable, and preferably no less than 4-of. Running 8 Turn 2 Paladins is sickening.
Plunge into Darkness: As an additional, or less recommended, replacement tutor. Costs one more, but never kills you and always grabs something.
Noxious Revival: Get back Paladin through removal, get back Retract midcombo, put a card on top and Spoils...Revival is kind of an auto-4-of in most lists now.
Retract: Draws us X cards where X is the number of Equipments we have, for free. Auto-4-of. Can be replaced by Hurkyl's Recall, but it's not as good.
Hurkyl's Recall: Additional, expensive Retracts that can splash hate Affinity and be tutored by Muddle the Mixture. I usually run at least one sideboard.
Equipments: You really want all 24 of these, and possibly some 1-mana ones as well like Golem-Skin Gauntlets.
Lightning Greaves: Protects Paladin, allows for immediate Paradise Mantle use, and draws cards midcombo. Always worth at least looking at for any build.
Mox Opal: Free mana, makes Retract free. 4-of no questions asked. With the new Legend Rule, it's absolutely bonkers.
Simian Spirit Guide: Makes free mana for when you're going off. If you run it, 1-2 of to cast Grapeshot.
Salvage Titan: Provides both mana when going off, and facebeating if you can't go off or fizzled. Very flexible, very powerful, probably worth at least one slot.
Cavern of Souls: Winning through countermagic is pretty good for a combo deck.
Plains: A miser Plains is a possibility in some builds, to minimize the pain of Path and Ghost Quarter.
Erayo/Canonist: This is an experimental sideboard plan to bring in. The idea of locking people down so that I can get rolling again sooner seems great. Also protects Paladin from a single removal spell. It's worth noting that with SSG, a Turn 1 Erayo flip is possible.
Muddle the Mixture: Tutors up Paladin, Greaves, Plunge, Grapeshot, and Hurkyl's Recall. Doesn't fetch everything, is slower, and isn't instant speed, but allows for much more reliability in the face of hate while still killing Turn 3-4.
FAQ
Since some questions and criticisms are recurring more and more frequently despite being answered, I'm going to put the answers right here up front for everyone to see. Here goes.
Is this deck as easy to pilot as it looks?
Not by a long shot! This deck excels in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Playing mind games with your opponent so that they tap out, knowing when to mulligan ("Mull to Pally/Spoils" is just a hard and fast rule that we start with), knowing when to stop going off and try again next turn, knowing when to Spoils and what to Spoils for. There are layers and layers of intricacies that don't seem obvious at first glance. This deck has potential, but before you go off and play an FNM or something, practice with it a lot.
This deck seems wildly inconsistent. I mean, aren't you gambling everything on having a Spoils or Paladin in your opening hand?
No, not really. First of all, it's not that much of a gamble. The odds of opening with Spoils OR Pally are about 65% before mulligans. After taking mulligans into account, and assuming you're brave enough to go to 4 (you should be), the odds are around 96.3%.
Secondly, we can open without Spoils/Paladin and still have decent odds of finding one. Let's say you took that mull to 4 and still didn't see Paladin. Well, you know have about a 48% of seeing one in the next 3 or 4 turns, depending on whether you are on the play or draw. This doesn't include drawing extra cards from Probes, so you're pretty much on house odds at that point.
Thirdly, though it's more unlikely, we are capable of winning without Puresteel Paladin. It is occasionally possible (and hilarious) to simply play out your hand of equipments and Mox Opal, play a Retract or two, and reach lethal Storm right there. This becomes especially relevant when your opponent plays fetchlands and shocklands. Versions that run Salvage Titan can also win through a beatdown, but it's not recommended to rely on this so much as fall back on it.
Does this deck die to spot removal?
Yes and no. Spot removal hurts our gameplan, a lot. That said, we have ways around it. All spot removal can be beat if your opponent taps out. Most spotremoval can be beat by winning turn 2 on the play, before they have 2 mana up. That actually only leaves Path, Bolt, and Dismember to worry about, really. Of those, Bolt and Dismember can be beaten by playing Pally turn 1, or after a tapout, and equipping him with Shields, of which we have plenty. And all Spot removal can be beat by drawing 2 or more Spoils/Paladins. (For reference, the odds of 2 or more in the top 10 cards is about 39.95%.)
Does this deck die to countermagic?
Absolutely not.
1) We run Cavern of Souls. It hinders us slightly with Spoils hands, but it's worth it to win through blue.
2) Most counters are not online when we are going off.
3) Of the two main counters that are online, Remand and Mana Leak, Remand is the more popular and is much, much less relevant to us. Putting Paladin back in our hand instead of wasting him is not a good gameplan for control.
What if you don't draw two lands to play Paladin? I mean, the lists here only run 11-13 lands.
It happens sometimes, but not enough to deter us. The odds of opening with no lands, and then not drawing a single land for 3 turns is about 5%. The odds of opening with 1 land and not seeing another land OR Spoils are about 11%. Not to mention the fact that Opal can act as a second land to get you started. More free mana would be better, but we do alright with what we have.
Isn't Spoils going to kill you in like, 90% of games?
Not even close. Spoils is a much, much better (and safer) card than everyone gives it credit for. The psychology of it scares away almost everybody, but in reality, the numbers say that it will kill you in about 8-10% of games if you play it Turn 1, on the play, naming a 4-of. If you want to play this deck, overcome your psychological fear of Spoils, and learn how to use it effectively.
Right, but what if it exiles all of your Grapeshots?
This scenario is very unlikely, and is the main reason we run more than 1 Grapeshot. Unfortunately, this is one of the few questions I can't give you hard numbers on, as it is exceptionally difficult to calculate; I wouldn't even know where to begin. Suffice to say, it doesn't happen nearly as often as just dying outright to Spoils.
So...if these numbers are all accurate, does that mean this is tournament viable?
Well, we aren't sure. I think it is, but I don't have any reports to back that up. We've had a couple people go undefeated at local events, and a couple people do...less than stellar. It seems like it could perform well, since it is significantly faster than other combo decks, but it does have a glaring weakness to one of the most common types of spells in the game. What we really need is for people to play it in tournaments to find out, but so far only one has been confident enough to try, and I can't take it anywhere until I get money to build it.
TL;DR: I will answer this question better when I have enough evidence one way or the other.
Current tech being discussed:
Leyline of Anticipation is a possibility against all hate except Turn 1 discard. It is very high risk/high reward, being a dead card mid-combo but allowing for supreme protection.
Most artifact sources of protection are being called into question. Spellskite, Defense Grid, Swiftfoot Boots, etc. all get bounced when you Retract, leaving a wide opening for your opponent.
There is an extremely strong consensus that all Paladin lists should run 4 Noxious Revival. It is infinitely flexible, powerful protection, and almost never a dead draw. Consider it as much a core card as Opal or Retract.
The variance of Spoils has been raised as a concern for this deck's chances in the competitive scene. While low, the odds are existent, and in a large event with 9-10 rounds, will punish the deck's risk/reward philosophy. Muddle is a strong candidate for alternate or additional tutors, but Spoils is still my personal recommendation for smaller events or really lucky people.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Looks like tons of fun, just really inconsistent compared to the reliable and fast combos already in modern.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
So far the deck has been highly reliable. The odds of going off in the first couple turns are the same as Legacy Cheeri0s, since you run the same 4 Glimpse+3 Tutor package (strongly considering going to 4). The odds of whiffing are slightly higher, since unlike Legacy, you have to run 10+ lands to be stable, but you trade that for a free Scapegoat effect, which is bonkers.
I've only played 3 real games with it so far, but they were all turn 2 wins. I don't know what the first deck was, as he played a Hierarch and then left. The second deck was Delver that tapped out on turn 2. Goldfishing is giving me similar results. Take the goldfish report with a little salt, as I didn't keep track of each game and thus suffer memory bias, but I do believe it's quite fast and consistent.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
RTR - Theros
RDW 6-0 1 TNM Win-A-Box
Esper Control 7-4
Boros Burn 3-1
RW Devotion 3-1
Monoblack Devotion 8-4
To win turn two you would need to start with a first turn Memnite + Paradise Mantle + equip or you need a Mox and play Paladin turn 1 or you need to draw into all three Mox Opal throughout the combo.
If you don't meet one of those requirements, you can't get the two mana for a grapeshot. Maybe I am only missing something, but at the moment I can't see the turn 2 win.
You are afraid that a creature may not be summoning sick to produce mana with a Paradise Mantle and that Mox Opal is legendary?
Retract is also not free, it costs a blue mana. Ok, it is kind of free if you have a mox, but only kind of.
The deck also just auto loses to a removal on paladin or to a Stony Silence, wich is almost in every second sideboard.
The deck cantrips for free until it can cast a storm spell for lethal.
It does this by playing the Puresteel Paladin and casting free equipment to draw cards, effectively cantripping while racking up a storm count.
I don't like the Storm Entity finisher, it can just be chumped with no way to remove blockers. Multiple Grapeshot or Empty the Warrensare probably safer bets.
Spoils of the Vault as your tutor makes running a low win con count dangerous.
Adding in Simian Spirit Guides to draw into will help cast your finisher.
All in all seems like a fun deck, but traditional storm seems much stronger.
And to my suprise it really gets the turn 2 or 3 wins about 50% of the time. You really draw a ton of cards.
But the other 50% of the time, would have lost if it where against a real opponent because I would not draw into a second land after I mulliganed multiple times to get a Paladin on my starting hand, or because I simply fizzled in the middle of the combo (I didn't draw into anymore equipment or draw spells), or because I lost half of my life to Probe, Street Wraith, Spoils and fetching turn 1 for the Godless Shrine.
It can work, but it seems much to inconsistent to me. The deck also seems very fragile, as it loses to so many commonly played cards. I would never take this to any tournament, but it can be nice for the kitchen table.
I see very few "commonly played cards" it loses to. Within 2 turns, even on the draw, your opponent has:
-Remand
-Mana Leak
-PtE
-Terminate/Doom Blade/etc.
No opponent will expect to need those open in game 1, and if they have it game 2, they probably won't have mana for it (except Path) in game 3. This is exactly how I beat the Delver deck. He had turn 2 Remand in game 2, but thought my earlier turn 2 win was a fluke and tapped out into it. Also, once I have a sideboard together, it will have 4 Pact of Negation in it.
I'm currently using the following list. I like to diversify wincons with most of my Cheeri0s lists, but I agree that may not be as important in Modern.
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Retract
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Grapeshot
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Kite Shield
4 Bone Saw
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Glimmervoid
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
Maxing out Spoils to maximize turn 2 Paladins, maxing out Retracts because it wins the game, and losing Wraith because I don't feel like it adds enough while clashing with Spoils.
Notes to some other comments:
Retract is free if you bounce an Opal. You do not autolose to Stony Silence. In fact, you win through it pretty easily. Combo off w/o using Opal mana, stop, next turn Retract off a gold land, replay stuff, Grapeshot. It's not an obstacle at all, just slows you down a turn. Oh, and also, how difficult is it to side in cheap enchantment hate? In White?
Traditional Storm is not only slower by at least 2 turns, it is also easier to disrupt. Trying to win on turn 4 means that there are many more answers available for it, and that it is easier to see coming.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If that's the case and your opponent starts with an Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize, things look pretty bad for you.
Also I don't know how a sideboard would look like... you can't reduce the count of 0-mana equipments by much it seems to me.
A thing you could maybe change, would be to replace a plains with another Gemstone Mine, doesn't hurt really, but helps in playing a Spoils or Retrace.
Just 2-1'd a Jund player. Game 1, Spoils for 26. Game 2, won through Abrupt Decay. Game 3 won through Inquisition.
2-0'd a Delver player last night. Game 1 he got as far as Island, Delver. Game 2 he tapped out on turn 2.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I play them in my Hulk deck that has very consistent turn 1-3 kills.
On a sidenote: I can't believe I'm such an idiot. 4 Cavern of Souls DUH.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I was going to suggest that. It disables U control and most decks that use counters, if they cant stop the paladin they wont be able to stop all the equips that will follow a Paladin either.
Being that I played a Paladin deck up until the last rotation and wanting to keep playing it got me into modern, I had to test this. Its a sweet deck, it gets off without much trouble and Mox Opal + Retract is gold, I'm running 4 of each as you can vault for any missing piece (Pal, Retract or Mox).
It is indeed very weak to removal, unless you got another Paladin ready or enough life for a Vault you're pretty much dead if you lose the Paladin, you either win or go home so dropping Paladin safely is the single most important skill to pilot this deck. As sideboarding anything weakens the combo I cant contemplate a SB unless it is a 180 sb. Side out the grapeshots and most of the 0cmc equips for Etched Champions and more aggro equips. Since they will most likely pack removal for your Paladin Game 2, you should be packing more creatures, and since the Paladin will be the first to bite the dust, all the 0cmc equips will just be a burden. I imagine it like a surprise storming grapeshot game 1 then after they weaken their deck siding answers in, you shift your deck into aggro mode or something else. Its risky trying to pull it a second time post-sideboard, to do it I think Gemstone Cavern is mandatory on game 2 (With some luck you might start with it on field then Turn 1 Cavern of Souls into Paladin).
My 2 cents...
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
And the best part is you don't have to side it in against matchups you already autowin, like Tron.
If I don't side into Affinity, I'm going to side into 4 Inquisition of Kozilek+4 Pact of Negation. Or maybe a 3/3 split. Yes, it dilutes the combo, but it's very solid protection, and makes a turn 3 win much easier through hate.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Pic: Turn 3.
With 2 Paladins out you might as well pick up your deck and play...
Don't mind the "little" creatures I had on the field, I was just testing alternate win cons...:laugh:
EDIT:
Pic 2 - One Paladin, Turn 3. It just works so fast...
EDIT 2:
Pic 3 - Turn 1, Glimmervoid, Mox, Equip, Equip, Paladin. Turn 2, Deck in Hand!
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
also thinking riddlesmith might help a bit with comboing. just saying.
last but not least spoils is a dangerous card.
Spoils is dangerous, I've lost twice to it in about 20 games, but it has won me every other game it didn't lose, I play it turn one to fetch the missing piece (targets in order of priority: Pal, Mox, Retract).
Retract+Opal doesn't give more mana, it just lets you play retracts for free then once you run out of retracts, drop opal once more to activate grapeshot.
Riddlesmith should be tested, I ran it in my paladin lists, but IMO it wouldn't work here, he just filters cards trading 1-for-1 so you'll eventually just run out of cards to retract or filter. In fact IMO trying to modify the deck will just reduce your chances of getting off.
We don't need more mana, all we need is a turn 1-2 Paladin that can tap turn 3 with a Paradise Manbtle a mox and a land, if you don't get that the next best thing is to draw into 3 opals on the combo so you can tap one for R, play the other to destroy both, play the last and tap for any color to activate grapeshot. A turn 1 Paladin or the trick with the 3 moxes is what lets you go off on turn 2 as well.
I added 1 Hallowed Fountain, sometimes to go off you need to tap your mox and its annoying picking up your deck and not having a U source to retract.
3 lands and mox on turn 3 is one mana more than neccesary, you can go off with 2 lands and mox then draw into the 3rd land, or like I said, tap a Paladin with Mantle.
If left unchecked, turn 2-3 is where it wins, tested and proven.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"