I have been testing this deck a lot with my team, and this comment makes me want to share two observations:
1) Tombstalker is awful
In our testing, this guy did nothing but die in every matchup. He either gets countered or killed or otherwise stomped by all manner of decks. He can shrink your Goyfs if the graveyards don't have the right card composition, and he just doesn't hold the line well enough relative to his power. He is awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, that's true. But then again, most things are awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, especially in a deck built to abuse post-Deathcloud topdecking. Treetop Village is a much better post-Cloud win condition. Against Zoo, he is too slow and just gets Pathed. Against Twelvepost and other combo decks, he gets countered or (more annoyingly), Remanded. Against dedicated control, he gets countered, bounced, or killed. He's not a bad creature at all, but he's just not quite right in the current metagame.
If you would focus more on disruption instead of playing goyf you would do better. goyf absolutely does not belong in this deck. Every thing you play needs to have value, goyf just attacks and gets destroyed a lot and stuff.
2) Baloth is awesome
Baloth is the opposite. He really helps the RDW matchup and the Jund matchup, both of which are really abysmal without him. Going from turn 2 Elder into turn 3 Baloth, especially on the play against Burn, is a total blowout. He soaks up Guides, Marauders, Spark Elementals, and Hellspark Elementals. He can't even be burned by anything short of a Flame Javelin. Against Jund, he's even better because he basically makes it too risky to cast a Blightning. Overall, the Baloth is amazing against these otherwise ugly matchups.
I didn't say that baloth was bad. I just said that I wish he cost less. Against rdw/burn I'm going to take out the death clouds and run some leyline of sanctity. It also helps your jund match a bit.
-ktkenshinx-
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Yeah, definitely seems we ought to take a look at what ways the deck should be piloted. The way I've built mine doesn't use much card draw, but from what someone said on the previous page was that previous card engines revolved around the cycling lands and Life from the Loam.
With my build, I've found that I could rely more on putting out a win condition and then cloud to completely wipe the board, then let my win con go for the kill while the opponent flounders to top deck a land. Thus, I rely on Beseech the Queen to find any necessary cards before that point (Damnation, Baloth, Garruk, Death Cloud), with Treetop Village, Garruk, Quest for the Gravelord token, or even a primed Kitchen Finks to kill an opponent with no lands and no hand.
I'd be very interested in seeing lists (new or old) that use the card advantage/grind and knock off balance approach mentioned above and see how they compare to mine. I can post mine after work today.
Only old lists on me at the moment, but I'll see what I can do. Here's the list I play in casual, that's basically a direct port of my old Extended list:
Maxing out on cycling lands and LftL's is admittedly questionable and several people will tell you it's the wrong thing to do, but in my testing it's been an absolute house. High land count because I never really want to cast the cycling lands. Combined with 4 Raven's Crime the deck can easily shred hands. Light on creatures: STE for accel, Finks for life gain, and 2 Vore as win cons. Those are backed up with 2 Totems and 2 Garruks as Cloud-surviving win cons. Nostalgic Dreams is absolutely sick with Life from the Loam, too. Other considerations that just didn't make the cut were Genesis and Eternal Witness to give me more recursion options, Wurm Harvest as another win condition, and Akuta as another recurring threat.
The biggest thing we lose coming from a list like this is the cycling land draw engine. Terravore is just a big dumb beater like Goyf or Tombstalker and is easily replaced. Nostalic Dreams is only as good as a handful of lands, so it's an easy replacement with Eternal Witness.
I don't play Smallpox in my build, but the more I think about it the more I think it might be the way to go in a world without cycling lands, as it contributes to that "grind out" style of play. Just off the top of my head, a Modern version might look like this:
That's very hastily thrown together, and there are a number of things I don't like about it, including the lack of Totem, the ridiculous number of black mana symbols (40 to 20 green), and the fact that it only has 3 slots of card draw. But it's possibly a start.
The article from the Salvation Wiki on Cloud has two decklists from the 2009 PTQ Honolulu season, and the two have different approaches. Luigi's list is similar to mine:
And Giraldo's is a more creature-heavy build that forgoes the LftL + cycling lands engine. To be perfectly honest, I really don't like this list, as it has zero ways to draw cards.
If you would focus more on disruption instead of playing goyf you would do better. goyf absolutely does not belong in this deck. Every thing you play needs to have value, goyf just attacks and gets destroyed a lot and stuff.
I would LOVE to take out Goyf, because he is one of the few cards I don't own a playset of, and I don't want to spend another $200 to finish it off. In my testing, however, he is brutal and he has won me a lot of games. I was one of the guys leading the "I hate Goyf"/"Ban Goyf" charge about 3 years ago in Legacy, but he's just really good in this metagame. As to a card "having value", I'm not entirely sure what that is intended to mean, given that a lot of these decks on these threads are running Tombstalker and Terravore, two guys that you can't play before a Cloud but two guys that swing hard after. Goyf swings just as hard as a Tombstalker, minus the evasion, but he is a godsend in the early game.
I would LOVE to take out Goyf, because he is one of the few cards I don't own a playset of, and I don't want to spend another $200 to finish it off. In my testing, however, he is brutal and he has won me a lot of games. I was one of the guys leading the "I hate Goyf"/"Ban Goyf" charge about 3 years ago in Legacy, but he's just really good in this metagame. As to a card "having value", I'm not entirely sure what that is intended to mean, given that a lot of these decks on these threads are running Tombstalker and Terravore, two guys that you can't play before a Cloud but two guys that swing hard after. Goyf swings just as hard as a Tombstalker, minus the evasion, but he is a godsend in the early game.
-ktkenshinx-
Actually in some of the older builds Terravore worked just like Goyf if you were running cycling lands. You could plop him down early for beats if need be, or hold him back to be beastly after Cloud.
I think Goyf is a fine option, but I think it should be either Goyf or Tombstalker, not both, and I honestly don't think Goyf should be a 4-of.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Most of the problems you guys are describing are not ones that I've ever run into; it sounds like we're playing the deck in different ways. When I played in Extended, one of my cardinal rules was to never Cloud away my whole hand. The deck should have enough card draw and discard that you're far ahead of your opponent on cards, and it should have enough other creature kill / board sweeping that you don't need a massive Cloud to save you from aggro. I think the deck plays best as an incremental card advantage, grind-out plan (like classic Rock) rather than as a massive kill plan. Accelerate early into lands and cards so that you're ahead of your opponent on both, then Cloud early to knock them off balance and put pressure on. In particular I think it's very important to have a bigger hand before Cloud so that you have some control over what you're left with and aren't forced into topdeck mode.
I love Horizon Canopy, but it's absolutely terrible in this deck. The last thing you need to be doing is giving up a land drop, especially in the early game when you most want to draw cards.
Speaking of cycling lands, they were one of (if not the) main reasons to play Life from the Loam, and without them I think it becomes much less valuable as an engine. Horizon Canopy is a terrible replacement because it sacrifices a land drop and is limited to one draw a turn. Loam is nice if you're going heavy on the manlands, but I wouldn't call it an auto-include
BW is an old favorite of mine. Oh how I long for Vindicate...
I think the biggest thing we lose going to white is the acceleration (since Garruk really fits into that role, especially if you run 3 and power him out early). Maelstrom / Putrefy are easily replaced by O-Ring / Mortify / Unmake. Losing Crime // Punishment is also sort of a big deal, but it can probably just be traded in for more Damnation or Wrath, since it's generally wiping out creatures.
Elspeth replacing Garruk will be fine for the token generation aspect and the slot in the mana curve, but I imagine the deck will hurt for his untapping ability.
I do like what white offers as far as an anti-red sideboard, since that's typically a rough matchup for Cloud.
Not a huge fan of the Caw, but that might just be personal bias. I do like Wall of Omens though. Castigate might also be an option depending on how the mana curve looks. I might run Orzhov Signet over Fellwar, or Totem over either of them if the 2-drop slot gets full.
Back to the BG version for a bit, I completely forgot that Smother is still legal. Update to the list I have from above, as I really prefer the Arena over SiB.
Trimmed things a little to make the curve look better: 5 one drops, 11 two drops, 10 three drops. The only thing I'm not a huge fan of is that many 3-ofs; I like a little more consistency. Not sure where to trim though; Smallpox and Arena both seem poorly suited to being 4-ofs. Thoughts?
Notice I don't use either Tombstalker of Goyf. Both really don't fill the role I need them to in the deck. The issue with both is that they are only really dudes who are cheap.
I started using Night's Whisper with this creature base. The life gain bonus I have seen with this deck allows this inclusion. I also don't have to wait to get the cards and I don't end up tapping out turn 3 for something that really does nothing until turn 4.
I am heavily considering Dryad Arbor. You can fetch it which is always sweet when you need a blocker.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I like that shell a lot, though I'm still not sold on the need for maindeck Baloth. Having said that, in the absence of some kind other kind of "finisher" like Goyf or Tombstalker, they make more sense to me. I'm still not sure I'd run 3, especially if you're running Zenith (how many, if you are?)
I understand your concerns about the Arena, but in my experience tapping out isn't usually a problem as the deck is primarily sorcery-based. In all honesty the logic for Arena is contrary to what I said earlier (the part about establishing a dominant hand before Cloud), in that the reason I like it is it doubles the speed you can recover post-Cloud. And like I said above, it's entirely possible that I'm just trying to shoehorn one of my favorite cards where it doesn't belong.
Good call on Night's Whisper over Sign in Blood. I thought NW also cost BB. Definitely the better choice.
If you're running Zenith I'd definitely run the Arbor. Or did you mean fetch it with Catacombs? Just realized you could've meant either
^I've been running a Death Cloud deck since Greater Harvester was acceptable to be played.
I have 2 Zenith's main right now just to see what they can do. I really like the 1 mana ramp spell it becomes. Not to mention it lets you go get whatever guy you need. I have considered moving a Thrun or 2 into my side. For that matter there is a slew of quality Green guys to go get. I am at present only running 1 Arbor. I replaced a Treetop Village so I really didn't disrupt my mana base.
Also the GSZ into Arbor allows for turn 2 Trinisphere post board. Nothing like the look on a Bloodbraid Elf player realizing that the card they just cascaded wont get to resolve. A 4 mana 3/2 with haste isn't as scary.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Yeah I used to play NW in my Viridian Rats deck from Mirrodan/Kamigawa Standard. Good memories
Have you been using Thrun maindeck? How's he treating you?
Honestly I have tried about every good card I could think of. I really am seeing a need for mainboard Damnation. Living End is a really annoying deck.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I would LOVE to take out Goyf, because he is one of the few cards I don't own a playset of, and I don't want to spend another $200 to finish it off. In my testing, however, he is brutal and he has won me a lot of games. I was one of the guys leading the "I hate Goyf"/"Ban Goyf" charge about 3 years ago in Legacy, but he's just really good in this metagame. As to a card "having value", I'm not entirely sure what that is intended to mean, given that a lot of these decks on these threads are running Tombstalker and Terravore, two guys that you can't play before a Cloud but two guys that swing hard after. Goyf swings just as hard as a Tombstalker, minus the evasion, but he is a godsend in the early game.
-ktkenshinx-
typically the creatures I will run are STE,Finks,Baloth, eternal witness, Tombstalker. I had a free spot, and I chose fulminator mage. Having both STE and Fulminator mage can get you way ahead for a death cloud.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Ok, this is what I am currently testing. It seems a bit more creature heavy then some of yours, but I think this allows me to get way ahead and Cloud to be even more devistating.
So general consensus seems to be that the two main requirements for playing this deck in Modern are that you need to cast Death Cloud on turn 4 and you need to cast it for at least x=3. For the most part that means you need one Death Cloud (10% of your deck, 6 cards), two ramp spells (20% of your deck, 12 cards), and four lands in your first ten cards (40% of your deck, 24 cards). Obviously you can't run 6 copies of Death Cloud, but here is a generic shell based on those simple guidelines:
Golgari signet combines with STE and Garruk to consistently give you 6 mana on turn 4. If you are trying to use Garruk to help ramp into a Death Cloud for x=3 then obviously you need him out on turn 3 which means your other ramp spells should be able to hit the board on turn 2. Golgari Signet fits the colors and curve. Sphere of the Suns may be better because it doesn't require another mana source to use post-cloud, but it is limited to three activations.
Dark Confidant is obviously a great creature, moreso in a deck with such a low average CC. Finks and Ghast pop right back up after the cloud. Obviously a lot of people would prefer Obstinate Baloth to be there.
Sideboard would have Obstinate Baloth, Leyline of the Void, Thoughtsize, the usual.
My personal preference would be to drop 2 Smothers, 1 Confidant, and 1 Death Cloud for 4 Smallpox, but I think this is a good place to start from. Any opinions?
I'd actually disagree strongly with both of your requirements, at least based on the way I play the deck. I don't like the Signets even though they help mana because you're essentially wasting a turn on a card that gains you nothing in the short term. At least STE and VE can block for a turn.
I also don't like relying completely on Cloud as a sweeper, since sometimes you'll want to just kill creatures. This is why I'm not usually a fan of the race to cast Cloud and am usually OK with 3 of them.
I think a more resilient game plan is something like:
So far I have found 6 Death Cloud lists from the Modern dailies on MTGO. That is 2 3-1 lists per daily thus far. Looking pretty viable.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
@Poopingmypants do you mind linking us up to a few of those?
I have a "casual" Death Cloud deck. It's definitely my favourite deck but of course it wasn't standard legal, or good enough for legacy. So I'm pretty excited to play it in modern. The only problem is that my draw engine heavily relies on Skullclamp... Not to mention I don't play it in a tourney environment, so I have to do some overhauling. My creature shell is something like this:
I am really unsure of whether or not Bloodghast is any good in this deck. Post cloud he's amazing, but without Skullclamp he's not a reusable card-drawing machine. Also I made the switch from Sakura Tribe Elder to Emissary just because he interacts better with clamp. If the meta is zoo heavy I think this is still a correct call?
I also run Life from the Loam, 3 copies of Raven's Crime and a singleton Worm Harvest. I find that the repeatable discard from Raven's Crime can quickly put an opponent into topdeck mode, at which point you've pretty much won. I don't know if targeted discard is better here though (IoK, Thoughtseize...)
My concern largely is that the deck is such a 'slow' deck in terms of timing. 90% of what we can do is done at sorcery speed. Is this a problem?
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Patch me back to my mind
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Only old lists on me at the moment, but I'll see what I can do. Here's the list I play in casual, that's basically a direct port of my old Extended list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Barren Moore
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Terravore
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Artifacts (2)
2 Phyrexian Totem
Sorceries (2)
4 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
3 Melstrom Pulse
3 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
2 Crime // Punishment
2 Nostalgic Dreams
Maxing out on cycling lands and LftL's is admittedly questionable and several people will tell you it's the wrong thing to do, but in my testing it's been an absolute house. High land count because I never really want to cast the cycling lands. Combined with 4 Raven's Crime the deck can easily shred hands. Light on creatures: STE for accel, Finks for life gain, and 2 Vore as win cons. Those are backed up with 2 Totems and 2 Garruks as Cloud-surviving win cons. Nostalgic Dreams is absolutely sick with Life from the Loam, too. Other considerations that just didn't make the cut were Genesis and Eternal Witness to give me more recursion options, Wurm Harvest as another win condition, and Akuta as another recurring threat.
The biggest thing we lose coming from a list like this is the cycling land draw engine. Terravore is just a big dumb beater like Goyf or Tombstalker and is easily replaced. Nostalic Dreams is only as good as a handful of lands, so it's an easy replacement with Eternal Witness.
I don't play Smallpox in my build, but the more I think about it the more I think it might be the way to go in a world without cycling lands, as it contributes to that "grind out" style of play. Just off the top of my head, a Modern version might look like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Golgari Rot Farm
6 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Tombstalker
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorceries (20)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Smallpox
3 Sign in Blood
3 Death Cloud
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
2 Crime // Punishment
That's very hastily thrown together, and there are a number of things I don't like about it, including the lack of Totem, the ridiculous number of black mana symbols (40 to 20 green), and the fact that it only has 3 slots of card draw. But it's possibly a start.
The article from the Salvation Wiki on Cloud has two decklists from the 2009 PTQ Honolulu season, and the two have different approaches. Luigi's list is similar to mine:
4 Barren Moor
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Planeswalkers
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Instants
2 Putrefy
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Smother
Sorceries
2 Crime / Punishment
2 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
And Giraldo's is a more creature-heavy build that forgoes the LftL + cycling lands engine. To be perfectly honest, I really don't like this list, as it has zero ways to draw cards.
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
3 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Putrefy
3 Smother
Sorceries
3 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
4 Thoughtseize
I would LOVE to take out Goyf, because he is one of the few cards I don't own a playset of, and I don't want to spend another $200 to finish it off. In my testing, however, he is brutal and he has won me a lot of games. I was one of the guys leading the "I hate Goyf"/"Ban Goyf" charge about 3 years ago in Legacy, but he's just really good in this metagame. As to a card "having value", I'm not entirely sure what that is intended to mean, given that a lot of these decks on these threads are running Tombstalker and Terravore, two guys that you can't play before a Cloud but two guys that swing hard after. Goyf swings just as hard as a Tombstalker, minus the evasion, but he is a godsend in the early game.
-ktkenshinx-
Actually in some of the older builds Terravore worked just like Goyf if you were running cycling lands. You could plop him down early for beats if need be, or hold him back to be beastly after Cloud.
I think Goyf is a fine option, but I think it should be either Goyf or Tombstalker, not both, and I honestly don't think Goyf should be a 4-of.
Except Horizon Canopy but that is meh.
Pretty much:
I love Horizon Canopy, but it's absolutely terrible in this deck. The last thing you need to be doing is giving up a land drop, especially in the early game when you most want to draw cards.
I think the biggest thing we lose going to white is the acceleration (since Garruk really fits into that role, especially if you run 3 and power him out early). Maelstrom / Putrefy are easily replaced by O-Ring / Mortify / Unmake. Losing Crime // Punishment is also sort of a big deal, but it can probably just be traded in for more Damnation or Wrath, since it's generally wiping out creatures.
Elspeth replacing Garruk will be fine for the token generation aspect and the slot in the mana curve, but I imagine the deck will hurt for his untapping ability.
I do like what white offers as far as an anti-red sideboard, since that's typically a rough matchup for Cloud.
Not a huge fan of the Caw, but that might just be personal bias. I do like Wall of Omens though. Castigate might also be an option depending on how the mana curve looks. I might run Orzhov Signet over Fellwar, or Totem over either of them if the 2-drop slot gets full.
Back to the BG version for a bit, I completely forgot that Smother is still legal. Update to the list I have from above, as I really prefer the Arena over SiB.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Golgari Rot Farm
6 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tombstalker
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorceries (21)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Smallpox
3 Smother
3 Death Cloud
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Damnation
2 Crime // Punishment
Trimmed things a little to make the curve look better: 5 one drops, 11 two drops, 10 three drops. The only thing I'm not a huge fan of is that many 3-ofs; I like a little more consistency. Not sure where to trim though; Smallpox and Arena both seem poorly suited to being 4-ofs. Thoughts?
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Obstinate Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
Notice I don't use either Tombstalker of Goyf. Both really don't fill the role I need them to in the deck. The issue with both is that they are only really dudes who are cheap.
I started using Night's Whisper with this creature base. The life gain bonus I have seen with this deck allows this inclusion. I also don't have to wait to get the cards and I don't end up tapping out turn 3 for something that really does nothing until turn 4.
I am heavily considering Dryad Arbor. You can fetch it which is always sweet when you need a blocker.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I understand your concerns about the Arena, but in my experience tapping out isn't usually a problem as the deck is primarily sorcery-based. In all honesty the logic for Arena is contrary to what I said earlier (the part about establishing a dominant hand before Cloud), in that the reason I like it is it doubles the speed you can recover post-Cloud. And like I said above, it's entirely possible that I'm just trying to shoehorn one of my favorite cards where it doesn't belong.
Good call on Night's Whisper over Sign in Blood. I thought NW also cost BB. Definitely the better choice.
If you're running Zenith I'd definitely run the Arbor. Or did you mean fetch it with Catacombs? Just realized you could've meant either
I have 2 Zenith's main right now just to see what they can do. I really like the 1 mana ramp spell it becomes. Not to mention it lets you go get whatever guy you need. I have considered moving a Thrun or 2 into my side. For that matter there is a slew of quality Green guys to go get. I am at present only running 1 Arbor. I replaced a Treetop Village so I really didn't disrupt my mana base.
Also the GSZ into Arbor allows for turn 2 Trinisphere post board. Nothing like the look on a Bloodbraid Elf player realizing that the card they just cascaded wont get to resolve. A 4 mana 3/2 with haste isn't as scary.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Have you been using Thrun maindeck? How's he treating you?
Honestly I have tried about every good card I could think of. I really am seeing a need for mainboard Damnation. Living End is a really annoying deck.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
typically the creatures I will run are STE,Finks,Baloth, eternal witness, Tombstalker. I had a free spot, and I chose fulminator mage. Having both STE and Fulminator mage can get you way ahead for a death cloud.
Albert Einstein
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2 Twilight Mire
6 Forest
9 Swamp
2 Golgari Rot Farm
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
// Creatures
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Bloodghast
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Grim Discovery
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Smallpox
4 Death Cloud
1 Fulminator Mage
4 Thoughtseize
4 Beast Within
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Obstinate Baloth
Crucible is nice but, but 2 seems like an odd number of them. Possibly too much of a "win more" card.
Lack of spot removal seems like it would hurt your aggro matchup. Maybe lose 1 Cloud, 1 land, and 1 Bloodghast to open up 3 slots?
4 sakura-tribe elder
4 dark confidant
4 bloodghast
4 kitchen finks
Non-creature Spells
4 death cloud
4 garruk wildspeaker
4 golgari signet
4 smother
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 twilight mire
4 overgrown tomb
4 verdant catacombs
4 treetop village
2 golgari rot farm
3 forest
3 swamp
Golgari signet combines with STE and Garruk to consistently give you 6 mana on turn 4. If you are trying to use Garruk to help ramp into a Death Cloud for x=3 then obviously you need him out on turn 3 which means your other ramp spells should be able to hit the board on turn 2. Golgari Signet fits the colors and curve. Sphere of the Suns may be better because it doesn't require another mana source to use post-cloud, but it is limited to three activations.
Dark Confidant is obviously a great creature, moreso in a deck with such a low average CC. Finks and Ghast pop right back up after the cloud. Obviously a lot of people would prefer Obstinate Baloth to be there.
Sideboard would have Obstinate Baloth, Leyline of the Void, Thoughtsize, the usual.
My personal preference would be to drop 2 Smothers, 1 Confidant, and 1 Death Cloud for 4 Smallpox, but I think this is a good place to start from. Any opinions?
I also don't like relying completely on Cloud as a sweeper, since sometimes you'll want to just kill creatures. This is why I'm not usually a fan of the race to cast Cloud and am usually OK with 3 of them.
I think a more resilient game plan is something like:
T1: Discard
T2: STE
T3: Smallpox
T4: Sweeper
T5: Garruk -> Night's Whisper
T6: Cloud
Obviously it won't always look like this, as sometimes you'll lay down an early Finks or need more spot removal or what-not.
The list I've got now is:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Golgari Rot Farm
6 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Spells (22)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Go for the Throat
4 Night's Whisper
3 Smallpox
3 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
2 Crime // Punishment
I'm still fiddling over whether I want 4 GftT or a 5th turn one discard spell in the main deck (sideboard will have the other option).
I'm also interested to see some of the builds using Zenith, as I think it could be very powerful but I have no experience using it.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I have a "casual" Death Cloud deck. It's definitely my favourite deck but of course it wasn't standard legal, or good enough for legacy. So I'm pretty excited to play it in modern. The only problem is that my draw engine heavily relies on Skullclamp... Not to mention I don't play it in a tourney environment, so I have to do some overhauling. My creature shell is something like this:
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Bloodghast
I am really unsure of whether or not Bloodghast is any good in this deck. Post cloud he's amazing, but without Skullclamp he's not a reusable card-drawing machine. Also I made the switch from Sakura Tribe Elder to Emissary just because he interacts better with clamp. If the meta is zoo heavy I think this is still a correct call?
I also run Life from the Loam, 3 copies of Raven's Crime and a singleton Worm Harvest. I find that the repeatable discard from Raven's Crime can quickly put an opponent into topdeck mode, at which point you've pretty much won. I don't know if targeted discard is better here though (IoK, Thoughtseize...)
My concern largely is that the deck is such a 'slow' deck in terms of timing. 90% of what we can do is done at sorcery speed. Is this a problem?
Patch me back to my mind