I'm trying out beseech the queen...seems pretty good to pick up what you need for fairly cheap. It can at least pick out Death Cloud at any time due to the CMC restrictions.
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
Excuse me? A 4/4 for 4 that gains 4 life and shuts down red only works against discard? I would play Obstinate Baloth maindeck in a LOT of green-based decks because he's really good.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
tombstalker is the only card I would run at or above 5. I would honestly try to keep it at 3, but obstinate baloth is good, and is a strait up house against jund.
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I used to play this deck in Extended and it was one of my all-time favorite, enough that I kept a version for casual. These are just some of my musings, including some cards I haven't seen mentioned. I'll throw out a deck list soon after I've proxies it up.
In my experience slipknot is absolutely right about the mana curve, and forgetting that even for one or two "awesome" cards reduces your consistency and makes you lose games. Playing cards over CMC 4 in this deck is the equivalent of cutting lands in a normal control deck: it just increases the chance that you'll lose random games to decks you should have good matches against. In my experience the only main deck card with CMC > 4 should be Tombstalker, which is an excellent 2-of wincon. Baloth is fantastic (necessary I'd say) against Junk and Jund but I think he should be sideboard tech. I don't even like Wurm Harvest in the Modern version due to the lack of cycling lands. The only other (sort of) high cost card that I think is worth it is Crime // Punishment, which is an old favorite of mine. It's no Deed, but it can be quite powerful nonetheless. I personally like it as a 2-of next to Damnation.
Speaking of cycling lands, they were one of (if not the) main reasons to play Life from the Loam, and without them I think it becomes much less valuable as an engine. Horizon Canopy is a terrible replacement because it sacrifices a land drop and is limited to one draw a turn. Loam is nice if you're going heavy on the manlands, but I wouldn't call it an auto-include.
Finding a suitable replacement for the Loam draw engine will be a major step in making the deck competitive, in my opinion. If you strictly adhere to the <3 CMC mana curve, then I think Dark Confidant is a strong option, as the life loss will be offset by the Finks and he'll get wiped by your Cloud so you don't continue to bleed out. The biggest problem here is that running Crime // Punishment and Tombstalker (two of the strongest cards in the deck, in my experience) becomes much more risky. Beyond that, Carven Caryatid shores up the aggro match and draws a card, but it's in an awkward spot mana-wise as there are already numerous 3-drops. Night's Whisper could be the answer. It may even be worth it to just brute force it with Harmonize, despite the CMC.
Speaking of 3-drops, I love Phyrexian Totem in this deck. Helps you hit triple black, survives Cloud, and can safely swing in for heavy damage immediately afterward.
Another set of 3-drops worth considering, in my opinion, are the Swords (specifically Sword of Light and Shadow and Sword of Fire and Ice). Again, it's dependent upon your build, but with a sufficient number of creatures (including Garruk tokens) these can offset the life loss, discard, and creature destruction. I'm personally more partial to Light/Shadow, and am testing it as a 2-3 of.
Akuta, Born of Ash is another potential finisher that sneaks under the curve, as you'll generally be able to recur it after a Cloud. I'd probably run Loams if I went that route.
That's all for now, more to come though; the wheels are turning!
Do you think the deck could use Phyrexian Arena? You mentioned Dark Confidant was strong but didn't play nice w/ Tomb Stalker. Phyrexian Arena doesn't care about high mana costs and survives a cloud.
I honestly didn't include it in that post because I wasn't sure I could say anything intelligent about it For one thing, Arena is probably my second favorite card ever, and I've been known to try to force it into decks where it didn't belong. My two concerns with Arena would be the mana cost (again worried about crowding the 3-drop slot) and, paradoxically, the fact that it survives Cloud, as that can end up putting you on a rough clock post-Cloud. I would think it would be more valuable in Smallpox builds as they have more flexibility to cut 3-drop removal spells.
This is what I've just got built on Mtgo thanks to this thread. Only played a few games, and so far, I actually find WW to be a PITA. Vial, Mirran Crusader, and Leonin Arbiter along side PtE, Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge hurt like a mother.
Punishment is certainly maindeck-able and should be. The more I play that card, I find it's pretty house.... Def. not a 4 of but something I may want to play 2-3 of if I can find room... Smother is another all star beating out Doom Blade... the 3cc bit is really not an issue and hits most problem creatures.
One other thing with my build is the number of 1-2 ofs... it makes Liliana Vess more attractive.. along with the post-cloud benefits she can lay down and tutor what you need, so she might be looking for some room to squeeze in here too.
EDIT: Reading the above posts about Loam, think it might come out. It's good with all the LD running around...Restore Balance and Ghost quarter/edge specifically, not to mention your own clouds... I was thinking about dropping the Raven's Crime and Loams for 2 more Punishment and another Witness, although she doesn't play well with Tombstalker... maybe 3 Phyrexian Arena for the CA. Thoughts?
I have a pretty decent list...it can go alright against Zoo with mainboard Baloths. The key I've found is Beseech the Queen, since often you need one key card to "combo out" or answer a dire situation.
I just don't like the thought of Dark Confidant in this build. (I haven't tested it). Against Zoo I find I get pretty low on health, and if I'm taking another 2-3 per turn then that's not helping at all.
Saying it can be taken care of by Death Cloud doesn't give it a pass either; you need a big enough Cloud to completely wipe your opponent's board. Against Zoo, they could top deck a Bolt or Helix and steal the game or start top decking their 1cc creatures. 12post could have enough life gain (earlier Glimmerposts) to quickly reestablish their position with a Cloudpost or two in play before you can take them out.
I see a lot of mention of Tombstalker, who requires BB post cloud. What is your strategy when you Cloud then? If I'm not mistaken you'd either have to top deck him and two swamps or do a small Cloud so you have him in hand and lands in play/float BB.
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
Akuta, Born of Ash is another potential finisher that sneaks under the curve, as you'll generally be able to recur it after a Cloud.
I thought about it as well, but Akuta could very possibly never see the light of day after a Cloud. When I Cloud, I wipe the board...biggest being no hands usually, or at least I have nothing in hand. Next turn your opponent draws first, so from then on your opponent will always have one more card in hand than you when Akuta checks. This changes of course with Phyrexian Arena or if you do a small cloud.
I like this toolbox approach. How many Suns do you run though vs creature count reduction? It essentially +1's every creature's casting cost in your deck though, which could be difficult when you're racing Zoo for board dominance. I could see the awesome ability of turn 1 Green Sun into Dryad, followed by turn 2 STE + 1cc spell, turn 3 Garruk + 2cc spot removal, and turn four Mega-Cloud. Hell of a draw though.
The Zoo match-up is really the single greatest strength of the deck. If your testing doesn't reflect a 60/40 split in this match-up your building the deck wrong. Really the best overall match-up is versus aggro.
The Restore balance deck is a horrid match-up. 30/70 at best. The decks have the same goals but they do it fast and Gargadon is very hard to kill post Balance.
12 post has been a 50/50 split thus far. I feel that this match-up will fall to the side of the more experienced player. There really isn't a build that I have made that has produced better results versus another.
I haven't had much issue with the Hivemind decks or the Splinter Twin decks. 60/40 would be as accurate as I could be with this one.
RDW/Burn is a notorious beating for this deck. 35/65 so far versus skilled players. I tossed out a couple matches against rather subpar opponents.
Tribal decks much like Zoo are a good match-up but again it really isn't any better than 60/40. Merfolk so far has been the easiest and Combo Elves the most unpredictable. It all biols down to getting a cheap removal spell then a board sweeper. If you can follow that up with some pressure your game should go well. If you get a mana draw or a creature heavy draw you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.
That is all for now. I plan to post more results as the deck evolves. Oh and Smother is still very good in this meta. Don't jump on other cards just because they are new.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
tombstalker is the only card I would run at or above 5. I would honestly try to keep it at 3, but obstinate baloth is good, and is a strait up house against jund.
I have been testing this deck a lot with my team, and this comment makes me want to share two observations:
1) Tombstalker is awful
In our testing, this guy did nothing but die in every matchup. He either gets countered or killed or otherwise stomped by all manner of decks. He can shrink your Goyfs if the graveyards don't have the right card composition, and he just doesn't hold the line well enough relative to his power. He is awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, that's true. But then again, most things are awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, especially in a deck built to abuse post-Deathcloud topdecking. Treetop Village is a much better post-Cloud win condition. Against Zoo, he is too slow and just gets Pathed. Against Twelvepost and other combo decks, he gets countered or (more annoyingly), Remanded. Against dedicated control, he gets countered, bounced, or killed. He's not a bad creature at all, but he's just not quite right in the current metagame.
2) Baloth is awesome
Baloth is the opposite. He really helps the RDW matchup and the Jund matchup, both of which are really abysmal without him. Going from turn 2 Elder into turn 3 Baloth, especially on the play against Burn, is a total blowout. He soaks up Guides, Marauders, Spark Elementals, and Hellspark Elementals. He can't even be burned by anything short of a Flame Javelin. Against Jund, he's even better because he basically makes it too risky to cast a Blightning. Overall, the Baloth is amazing against these otherwise ugly matchups.
Most of the problems you guys are describing are not ones that I've ever run into; it sounds like we're playing the deck in different ways. When I played in Extended, one of my cardinal rules was to never Cloud away my whole hand. The deck should have enough card draw and discard that you're far ahead of your opponent on cards, and it should have enough other creature kill / board sweeping that you don't need a massive Cloud to save you from aggro. I think the deck plays best as an incremental card advantage, grind-out plan (like classic Rock) rather than as a massive kill plan. Accelerate early into lands and cards so that you're ahead of your opponent on both, then Cloud early to knock them off balance and put pressure on. In particular I think it's very important to have a bigger hand before Cloud so that you have some control over what you're left with and aren't forced into topdeck mode.
Having said that, that's the way I played the deck in Extended when I had the cycling lands as an engine, hence my comment about finding a replacement source of card draw being so important. I tended to lose games where I Cloud'd away my whole hand and started topdecking.
I definitely agree with the comment about Tombstalker and Goyf not playing well together. They absolutely should not be run in the same deck. Like slipknot, I don't think Goyf is right for this deck, but that may just be personal bias.
I only saw Flagstones of Trokair mentioned once. With all of the Ravnica lands, it seems like a no brainer to sac for death cloud. I would run Smallpox as well.
Yeah, definitely seems we ought to take a look at what ways the deck should be piloted. The way I've built mine doesn't use much card draw, but from what someone said on the previous page was that previous card engines revolved around the cycling lands and Life from the Loam.
With my build, I've found that I could rely more on putting out a win condition and then cloud to completely wipe the board, then let my win con go for the kill while the opponent flounders to top deck a land. Thus, I rely on Beseech the Queen to find any necessary cards before that point (Damnation, Baloth, Garruk, Death Cloud), with Treetop Village, Garruk, Quest for the Gravelord token, or even a primed Kitchen Finks to kill an opponent with no lands and no hand.
I'd be very interested in seeing lists (new or old) that use the card advantage/grind and knock off balance approach mentioned above and see how they compare to mine. I can post mine after work today.
-MTG Salvation.
Same goes for Thrun, the Last Troll.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
tombstalker is the only card I would run at or above 5. I would honestly try to keep it at 3, but obstinate baloth is good, and is a strait up house against jund.
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In my experience slipknot is absolutely right about the mana curve, and forgetting that even for one or two "awesome" cards reduces your consistency and makes you lose games. Playing cards over CMC 4 in this deck is the equivalent of cutting lands in a normal control deck: it just increases the chance that you'll lose random games to decks you should have good matches against. In my experience the only main deck card with CMC > 4 should be Tombstalker, which is an excellent 2-of wincon. Baloth is fantastic (necessary I'd say) against Junk and Jund but I think he should be sideboard tech. I don't even like Wurm Harvest in the Modern version due to the lack of cycling lands. The only other (sort of) high cost card that I think is worth it is Crime // Punishment, which is an old favorite of mine. It's no Deed, but it can be quite powerful nonetheless. I personally like it as a 2-of next to Damnation.
Speaking of cycling lands, they were one of (if not the) main reasons to play Life from the Loam, and without them I think it becomes much less valuable as an engine. Horizon Canopy is a terrible replacement because it sacrifices a land drop and is limited to one draw a turn. Loam is nice if you're going heavy on the manlands, but I wouldn't call it an auto-include.
Finding a suitable replacement for the Loam draw engine will be a major step in making the deck competitive, in my opinion. If you strictly adhere to the <3 CMC mana curve, then I think Dark Confidant is a strong option, as the life loss will be offset by the Finks and he'll get wiped by your Cloud so you don't continue to bleed out. The biggest problem here is that running Crime // Punishment and Tombstalker (two of the strongest cards in the deck, in my experience) becomes much more risky. Beyond that, Carven Caryatid shores up the aggro match and draws a card, but it's in an awkward spot mana-wise as there are already numerous 3-drops. Night's Whisper could be the answer. It may even be worth it to just brute force it with Harmonize, despite the CMC.
Speaking of 3-drops, I love Phyrexian Totem in this deck. Helps you hit triple black, survives Cloud, and can safely swing in for heavy damage immediately afterward.
Another set of 3-drops worth considering, in my opinion, are the Swords (specifically Sword of Light and Shadow and Sword of Fire and Ice). Again, it's dependent upon your build, but with a sufficient number of creatures (including Garruk tokens) these can offset the life loss, discard, and creature destruction. I'm personally more partial to Light/Shadow, and am testing it as a 2-3 of.
Beat Within makes a nice budget replacement for Maelstrom Pulse in a deck with so much creature kill.
Akuta, Born of Ash is another potential finisher that sneaks under the curve, as you'll generally be able to recur it after a Cloud. I'd probably run Loams if I went that route.
That's all for now, more to come though; the wheels are turning!
@Above
Do you think the deck could use Phyrexian Arena? You mentioned Dark Confidant was strong but didn't play nice w/ Tomb Stalker. Phyrexian Arena doesn't care about high mana costs and survives a cloud.
I honestly didn't include it in that post because I wasn't sure I could say anything intelligent about it For one thing, Arena is probably my second favorite card ever, and I've been known to try to force it into decks where it didn't belong. My two concerns with Arena would be the mana cost (again worried about crowding the 3-drop slot) and, paradoxically, the fact that it survives Cloud, as that can end up putting you on a rough clock post-Cloud. I would think it would be more valuable in Smallpox builds as they have more flexibility to cut 3-drop removal spells.
I also like Crucible of Worlds, I'm just having issues getting the numbers for things right.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Forest
3 Treetop Village
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Twilight Mire
1 Golgari Rot Farm
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tombstalker
1 Raven's Crime
2 Life from the Loam
3 Smother
2 Putrefy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Memoricide
3 Doom Blade
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Fulminator Mage
Punishment is certainly maindeck-able and should be. The more I play that card, I find it's pretty house.... Def. not a 4 of but something I may want to play 2-3 of if I can find room... Smother is another all star beating out Doom Blade... the 3cc bit is really not an issue and hits most problem creatures.
One other thing with my build is the number of 1-2 ofs... it makes Liliana Vess more attractive.. along with the post-cloud benefits she can lay down and tutor what you need, so she might be looking for some room to squeeze in here too.
EDIT: Reading the above posts about Loam, think it might come out. It's good with all the LD running around...Restore Balance and Ghost quarter/edge specifically, not to mention your own clouds... I was thinking about dropping the Raven's Crime and Loams for 2 more Punishment and another Witness, although she doesn't play well with Tombstalker... maybe 3 Phyrexian Arena for the CA. Thoughts?
I just don't like the thought of Dark Confidant in this build. (I haven't tested it). Against Zoo I find I get pretty low on health, and if I'm taking another 2-3 per turn then that's not helping at all.
Saying it can be taken care of by Death Cloud doesn't give it a pass either; you need a big enough Cloud to completely wipe your opponent's board. Against Zoo, they could top deck a Bolt or Helix and steal the game or start top decking their 1cc creatures. 12post could have enough life gain (earlier Glimmerposts) to quickly reestablish their position with a Cloudpost or two in play before you can take them out.
I see a lot of mention of Tombstalker, who requires BB post cloud. What is your strategy when you Cloud then? If I'm not mistaken you'd either have to top deck him and two swamps or do a small Cloud so you have him in hand and lands in play/float BB.
-MTG Salvation.
I like this toolbox approach. How many Suns do you run though vs creature count reduction? It essentially +1's every creature's casting cost in your deck though, which could be difficult when you're racing Zoo for board dominance. I could see the awesome ability of turn 1 Green Sun into Dryad, followed by turn 2 STE + 1cc spell, turn 3 Garruk + 2cc spot removal, and turn four Mega-Cloud. Hell of a draw though.
-MTG Salvation.
-MTG Salvation.
The Zoo match-up is really the single greatest strength of the deck. If your testing doesn't reflect a 60/40 split in this match-up your building the deck wrong. Really the best overall match-up is versus aggro.
The Restore balance deck is a horrid match-up. 30/70 at best. The decks have the same goals but they do it fast and Gargadon is very hard to kill post Balance.
12 post has been a 50/50 split thus far. I feel that this match-up will fall to the side of the more experienced player. There really isn't a build that I have made that has produced better results versus another.
I haven't had much issue with the Hivemind decks or the Splinter Twin decks. 60/40 would be as accurate as I could be with this one.
RDW/Burn is a notorious beating for this deck. 35/65 so far versus skilled players. I tossed out a couple matches against rather subpar opponents.
Tribal decks much like Zoo are a good match-up but again it really isn't any better than 60/40. Merfolk so far has been the easiest and Combo Elves the most unpredictable. It all biols down to getting a cheap removal spell then a board sweeper. If you can follow that up with some pressure your game should go well. If you get a mana draw or a creature heavy draw you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.
That is all for now. I plan to post more results as the deck evolves. Oh and Smother is still very good in this meta. Don't jump on other cards just because they are new.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I have been testing this deck a lot with my team, and this comment makes me want to share two observations:
1) Tombstalker is awful
In our testing, this guy did nothing but die in every matchup. He either gets countered or killed or otherwise stomped by all manner of decks. He can shrink your Goyfs if the graveyards don't have the right card composition, and he just doesn't hold the line well enough relative to his power. He is awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, that's true. But then again, most things are awesome as a topdeck after a Deathcloud, especially in a deck built to abuse post-Deathcloud topdecking. Treetop Village is a much better post-Cloud win condition. Against Zoo, he is too slow and just gets Pathed. Against Twelvepost and other combo decks, he gets countered or (more annoyingly), Remanded. Against dedicated control, he gets countered, bounced, or killed. He's not a bad creature at all, but he's just not quite right in the current metagame.
2) Baloth is awesome
Baloth is the opposite. He really helps the RDW matchup and the Jund matchup, both of which are really abysmal without him. Going from turn 2 Elder into turn 3 Baloth, especially on the play against Burn, is a total blowout. He soaks up Guides, Marauders, Spark Elementals, and Hellspark Elementals. He can't even be burned by anything short of a Flame Javelin. Against Jund, he's even better because he basically makes it too risky to cast a Blightning. Overall, the Baloth is amazing against these otherwise ugly matchups.
-ktkenshinx-
Having said that, that's the way I played the deck in Extended when I had the cycling lands as an engine, hence my comment about finding a replacement source of card draw being so important. I tended to lose games where I Cloud'd away my whole hand and started topdecking.
I definitely agree with the comment about Tombstalker and Goyf not playing well together. They absolutely should not be run in the same deck. Like slipknot, I don't think Goyf is right for this deck, but that may just be personal bias.
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FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
With my build, I've found that I could rely more on putting out a win condition and then cloud to completely wipe the board, then let my win con go for the kill while the opponent flounders to top deck a land. Thus, I rely on Beseech the Queen to find any necessary cards before that point (Damnation, Baloth, Garruk, Death Cloud), with Treetop Village, Garruk, Quest for the Gravelord token, or even a primed Kitchen Finks to kill an opponent with no lands and no hand.
I'd be very interested in seeing lists (new or old) that use the card advantage/grind and knock off balance approach mentioned above and see how they compare to mine. I can post mine after work today.
-MTG Salvation.