I don't think pack rat will work well. By the time you can start using its ability, you should be playing creatures to bring out your vines, and if you cant your probably going to lose.
I think it needs to be seen as an alternate win condition (in some way, similar than Lotleth Troll). If you don't have creatures for triggering Vengevine form the graveyard and Rat is in play, you simply spend 3 mana, discard a card (ideally a dredger), put a +1/+1 in your first rat and create a 2/2 new creature. The opponent is forced to deal with the rat the turn it enters the battlefield 90% of the time, or in a couple of turns the game is ended. This definitely would buy us time while "finding" our Vengevines and/or Gravecrawlers. I'm going to try as soon as I get a playset of them.
This was my experience with Pack Rat when I tried playing it in place of Lotleth Troll - it tended to be kinda all-or-nothing. It can win you the game if you pump a few cards into it, but otherwise it just sits there being an inferior Troll. Better win condition, worse enabler.
I don't think pack rat will work well. By the time you can start using its ability, you should be playing creatures to bring out your vines, and if you cant your probably going to lose.
I think it needs to be seen as an alternate win condition (in some way, similar than Lotleth Troll). If you don't have creatures for triggering Vengevine form the graveyard and Rat is in play, you simply spend 3 mana, discard a card (ideally a dredger), put a +1/+1 in your first rat and create a 2/2 new creature. The opponent is forced to deal with the rat the turn it enters the battlefield 90% of the time, or in a couple of turns the game is ended. This definitely would buy us time while "finding" our Vengevines and/or Gravecrawlers. I'm going to try as soon as I get a playset of them.
This was my experience with Pack Rat when I tried playing it in place of Lotleth Troll - it tended to be kinda all-or-nothing. It can win you the game if you pump a few cards into it, but otherwise it just sits there being an inferior Troll. Better win condition, worse enabler.
You've just confirmed that Rats do what I want them to do :). I'm not taking out Trolls, but Bloodghasts, so I want Rats to act as a "complement" and as a potential win condition (which was never applicable to Bloodghast, at least in my case).
I've just bought 3 Pack Rats and I cannot wait for them to be tested in my deck!
I'm still trying to figure out the correct number of alternate win conditions. I play tested three Avatar of Woe online last week. On Friday, I tested two. Recurring him with Golgari Thug and getting him back the next turn is the main attempt here, which worked out a decent chunk of the time. Since we can normally dredge through half our deck, I don't want to commit too much to it, since we need the whole DredgeVine strategy to work. I went 3-1 Friday night, losing to a blistering fast Affinity deck.
Some input would be nice on the correct number of slots / if anyone tested my suggestion
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
I don't like Bloodghast. The not casting portion of it doesn't sit well with me. I can usually win without him unless I'm playing Twin. That's why I'm testing out Avatar of Woe and Grim Lavamancer.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
What is our plan against tron? I'm planning on going to modern tomorrow night, my friend consistently comes out in one of the top spots, he plays a blue white tron with iona emerakul and elesh.i was playing him today and when he played iona called black, and I was pretty screwed, the only solution I've found is slaughter games. I'm wondering has anyone found anything better against a similar deck?
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
What is our plan against tron? I'm planning on going to modern tomorrow night, my friend consistently comes out in one of the top spots, he plays a blue white tron with iona emerakul and elesh.i was playing him today and when he played iona called black, and I was pretty screwed, the only solution I've found is slaughter games. I'm wondering has anyone found anything better against a similar deck?
If he's running Iona and Elesh-Norn, I'm going to assume it's a Gifts Tron deck. Either way, there isn't much difference in the variations of UW-Tron and Mono-U Tron. Half of his spells are land fetching in which case we don't want to interact with him in that manner.
So depending on what you run, if you want to focus on beating him, I would include some land hate in your sideboard (Fulminator Mage, there's a red spell 3 or 4 CMC that destroys a land and deals two damage to them). That's good interaction. We also run Ancient Grudge and Rakdos Charm to fight off their Oblivion Stone, Mindslaver, Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan etc. Doom Blade is usually a good card vs their big creatures because it kills everything except Iona if they name black, so it's a good inclusion. I might also reccomend increasing your count of Ancient Grudge in the sideboard to three. I run two, but it's a meta thing. I also run Creeping Corrosion vs Affinity as a 2-of, but siding in one might help. I've only played blue tron decks once. I'm just basing this off of TCGPlayer deck lists! Hope this helps! =]
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Not a viable option. With our low land count, we want to utilize as many spells that are useful. Faithless Looting and Grisly Salvage are the enablers. The others are removal. Call to the Netherworld doesn't interact with the opponent and doesn't dredge or kill anything. We have Golgari Thug for this purpose.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Just got back from FNM at my local shop. Went 5-0, took first place. Officially found my perfect build!
Just got time to post results. 5-0
Round 1: Random deck (2-0): Not even sure he had a non-basic land he was so random / budget cheap
Round 2: Rakdos Aggro (2-1): Here, think BR Zombies from the Innistrad block with Dark Confidant and a lot of hand disruption.
It was a very efficient deck and fun to play against. Competitive and multiple ways to 2-1 me. Thank goodness for recursion!
Round 3: Mono-G Devotion (2-0): I played against a Leatherback Baloth and Dungrove Elder in this version. I'm not sure if it's the normal mono-G list, but I haven't seen them used in forever. I think the deck could have been a lot better if he was luckier. His draws were terrible and his plays could have been better personally.
Round 4: Grixis Control (2-1): Very strange build. At first I thought it was a Cruel Ultimatum control build since I saw a copy in G1, but he had a lot of planeswalkers. Couldn't say for sure and it was very rough sideboarding against. Won G2/G3 by just making myself faster.
Round 5: (tiebreaker for first place): Affinity (2-1): After a blistering fast start G1, I scooped. Thanks to sideboarding in an entire removal package, I destroyed everything he played thanks to Charms, Grudges, and recurring Darkblast from the graveyard killing all his little creatures and platings. He was mad G3 lol!
Avatar of Woe won me three games last night. I highly recommend giving it a go. Combine it with the Golgari Thug really takes opponents by surprise because no one reads a 1/1 for 2 effect until after they block it. Put the Avatar on top of your library, draw and cast for BB next turn, gain a 6/5 Fear with Doom Blade effect. One of the best things I found was the amount of removal that doesn't kill it. Burn spells require two because of 5 toughness. If it doesn't get countered, blue can usually only bounce it, but I can recast it so it's not a big deal. If they don't have Path, it usually lives. When it died last night, the Rakdos deck had to use two Bolts on it. Affinity triple blocked and I'll take that any day of the week.
K thanks for the help on tron, afterwards I realized I did have random charms to take out his yard, and yes he was playing gifts. I dropped in my local tourney when I lost one (it's free so only top 2 get prizes)I lost ta red/white low curve deck using vexing devils, legion loyalst, lavamancer, goblin guide, proclamation of rebirth and lots of burn. I couldn't hold out against such speed, my removal wasn't taking g out enough and wasn't letting me play creatures. After that game I'm tempted to put dark blast back into my sideboard, does anyone know how effective it is against affinity? I'm really stumped on what to do with fast decks like that, he outran my gnaw to the bones and would bur. Out my trolls and any creatures I tried to play, would my best bet be to stalk removal and tank out the first couple of turns until I can play two creatures and still have mana open for removal?
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Since I don't use Bloodghast, I don't run fetches. It started as a budget alternative, but I've found that it saves crucial points of damage against certain decks and I run enough of each color that I hardly ever get mana screwed. That's what the Birds of Paradise help with on occasion. They're also good for keeping a one-land hand. Some changes I made since the past version that made the deck faster and more resilient:
@creamy99
Man could you tell me, how does the deck play against combos, like Ad Nauseam etc.
Thanks
I can't say for Ad Nauseum. I've never played the deck before. Most people around here at my LGS play top decks or random aggro decks that mesh pretty well together. I struggle vs Splinter Twin decks, both RUG and UR versions, but I think most people do. I want to play vs Eggs and Living End, but I just haven't had the chance to encounter them. I can tell you how I fare vs Affinity, RG Aggro, Tron, Jund etc. Sorry I can't be of much more help.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
First off guys, if you go to FNM, post results. No one has posted anything lately.
Also, someone posted a list on TCGPlayer.com recently using Noxious Revival in their SB as a 2-of. I can't help but notice this goes fairly well. It might be a nice tactic to use with my Avatar of Woe. Anyone tried Revival at all with possibly a Lotleth Troll or Birds of Paradise?
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
3 Avatar of Woe
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Dregscape Zombie
4 Gravecrawler
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Golgari Thug
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Vengevine
Spells:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Faithless Looting
2 Grisly Salvage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Forest
1 Graven Cairns
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Golgari Charm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Rakdos Charm
That's off the top of my head. I'll verify it in a few minutes and change any numbers I'm forgetting
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
This was my experience with Pack Rat when I tried playing it in place of Lotleth Troll - it tended to be kinda all-or-nothing. It can win you the game if you pump a few cards into it, but otherwise it just sits there being an inferior Troll. Better win condition, worse enabler.
You've just confirmed that Rats do what I want them to do :). I'm not taking out Trolls, but Bloodghasts, so I want Rats to act as a "complement" and as a potential win condition (which was never applicable to Bloodghast, at least in my case).
I've just bought 3 Pack Rats and I cannot wait for them to be tested in my deck!
Some input would be nice on the correct number of slots / if anyone tested my suggestion
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Palefang Dawnfall
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
So depending on what you run, if you want to focus on beating him, I would include some land hate in your sideboard (Fulminator Mage, there's a red spell 3 or 4 CMC that destroys a land and deals two damage to them). That's good interaction. We also run Ancient Grudge and Rakdos Charm to fight off their Oblivion Stone, Mindslaver, Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan etc. Doom Blade is usually a good card vs their big creatures because it kills everything except Iona if they name black, so it's a good inclusion. I might also reccomend increasing your count of Ancient Grudge in the sideboard to three. I run two, but it's a meta thing. I also run Creeping Corrosion vs Affinity as a 2-of, but siding in one might help. I've only played blue tron decks once. I'm just basing this off of TCGPlayer deck lists! Hope this helps! =]
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Palefang Dawnfall
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Round 1: Random deck (2-0): Not even sure he had a non-basic land he was so random / budget cheap
Round 2: Rakdos Aggro (2-1): Here, think BR Zombies from the Innistrad block with Dark Confidant and a lot of hand disruption.
It was a very efficient deck and fun to play against. Competitive and multiple ways to 2-1 me. Thank goodness for recursion!
Round 3: Mono-G Devotion (2-0): I played against a Leatherback Baloth and Dungrove Elder in this version. I'm not sure if it's the normal mono-G list, but I haven't seen them used in forever. I think the deck could have been a lot better if he was luckier. His draws were terrible and his plays could have been better personally.
Round 4: Grixis Control (2-1): Very strange build. At first I thought it was a Cruel Ultimatum control build since I saw a copy in G1, but he had a lot of planeswalkers. Couldn't say for sure and it was very rough sideboarding against. Won G2/G3 by just making myself faster.
Round 5: (tiebreaker for first place): Affinity (2-1): After a blistering fast start G1, I scooped. Thanks to sideboarding in an entire removal package, I destroyed everything he played thanks to Charms, Grudges, and recurring Darkblast from the graveyard killing all his little creatures and platings. He was mad G3 lol!
Avatar of Woe won me three games last night. I highly recommend giving it a go. Combine it with the Golgari Thug really takes opponents by surprise because no one reads a 1/1 for 2 effect until after they block it. Put the Avatar on top of your library, draw and cast for BB next turn, gain a 6/5 Fear with Doom Blade effect. One of the best things I found was the amount of removal that doesn't kill it. Burn spells require two because of 5 toughness. If it doesn't get countered, blue can usually only bounce it, but I can recast it so it's not a big deal. If they don't have Path, it usually lives. When it died last night, the Rakdos deck had to use two Bolts on it. Affinity triple blocked and I'll take that any day of the week.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1005-wtb-and-maybe-trade-for-my-wants-i-need-dredgevine
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1005-wtb-and-maybe-trade-for-my-wants-i-need-dredgevine
3 Avatar of Woe
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Dregscape Zombie
2 Golgari Thug
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Vengevine
Spells:
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Faithless Looting
3 Grisly Salvage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Forest
1 Graven Cairns
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Golgari Charm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Rakdos Charm
Since I don't use Bloodghast, I don't run fetches. It started as a budget alternative, but I've found that it saves crucial points of damage against certain decks and I run enough of each color that I hardly ever get mana screwed. That's what the Birds of Paradise help with on occasion. They're also good for keeping a one-land hand. Some changes I made since the past version that made the deck faster and more resilient:
Mainboard:
-4 Demigod of Revenge
+3 Avatar of Woe
+1 Dregscape Zombie
Sideboard:
-1 Obstinate Baloth
+1 Rakdos Charm
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Man could you tell me, how does the deck play against combos, like Ad Nauseam etc.
Thanks
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Also, someone posted a list on TCGPlayer.com recently using Noxious Revival in their SB as a 2-of. I can't help but notice this goes fairly well. It might be a nice tactic to use with my Avatar of Woe. Anyone tried Revival at all with possibly a Lotleth Troll or Birds of Paradise?
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!