The thing with Jace is that he lets you cast a spell from your graveyard but doesn't require you to pay the casting cost, you can cast it anyway the card lets you, at least that's how it reads, so if Jace flips and my opponent searched I can cast Achrive trap twice, (once to put it in the graveyard and once from the graveyard), for it's trap cost of zero
You can't activate his -3 at instant speed though - most of the time your opponent will be searching during their turn or during your end step.
Seems fine. I'm not a big fan of Prowler, although it was the first card to ever get me into playing graveyard strategies. Vexing Devil is better in an extreme-aggro version, which yours doesn't look to be, and it's a 4-of kind of card imo, not a 1-of. Your deck wants to be going T1 Looting, drop vines, T2 Devil Devil Vines OMG.
I really like a singleton Tymaret and would recommend trying it over Vexing Devil. It's great in the graveyard as you can often end of turn sac a grave crawler to get Tymaret back then next turn cast Tymaret and the grave crawler from the graveyard. I use Tymaret in place of rotting rats and I've been quite happy with it.
+1 Golgari Grave-Troll faster graveyard for 0 mana
+1 Vexing Devil 1 mana drop to enable Vengevine and possible scavenge creature with +4 for 1 mana
+1 Oona's Prowler lets me discard cards, scavenge target with evasion, scavenge for 2 mana with +3, 2 mana drop to enable Vengevine
Well I struggle to find a point in running GGT in your version since you don't run Bloodghasts, don't run any delve beasts + you don't want Varolz to land in your grave. I would cut Devil, 1BOP, and Trolls and run 2 Mandrills/Tombstalker (evasion helps if you scavenge Shadow on them) + some spells - +1 Axe, +2 Decay, +1 Salvage.
I played Legion's deck tonight to a 2-2 finish. 2-0 vs Grixis Twin, 2-0 vs Burn, 0-2 vs Zoo, 0-2 vs Pod. It was my first time running this list other than testing vs jank on XMage/Cockatrice. In the first two matches, the deck did everything I wanted, gave me a fantastic removal suite to play with and my choice of a few different aggressive beats. GGT is actually castable in this version, as it is poised to go a little longer than the explosive OMG Bloodghasts in your face lists I've run previously.
In the second two matches, I couldn't buy a good draw. I went through 35 cards vs. Zoo before seeing a single vine OR looting, and then the same happened G1 vs. Pod. Pod is a tough matchup, and I mistakenly didn't sideboard in a Damnation, but I think I should have at least 1-2'd the Zoo matchup.
The one thing I've always struggled with when playing Dredge-heavy versions is how to gauge what it's better to do. Also, T2 Spellskite into T3 Scooze is pretty well game over. Finished 8th of 19.
He's probably talking about Melira Anafenza combo.
While I would probably agree that L237's list is the best Vine iteration for this metagame, the varolz version is super interesting. Death's Shadow is a major pet card of mine and I'd love to make it competitive in modern.
I ran some testing in the tournament practice room last night of the Legion273 version. I did however keep my sideboard, which I'm more familiar with and I believe to be correct for my meta. Changes between his/mine SB include -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Ancient Grudge, drop the Leylines, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Darkblast, and 1 Kolaghan's Command (I'm sold that this should be in every SB, possibly even MD).
From my testing, here is my experience! I went 5-4 for my first night running the deck. Ghost Quarter + Life from the Loam is a dirty, dirty combo once it comes online. It sealed the deal for me vs Tron. But, it only recurred once for me.
I think I am going to swap -1 fetchland for 1 Raven's Crime. I don't like the Murderous Cut with other delve spells that cost so much (Gurmag Angler, and there's a lot more stuff in the graveyard that can be utilized for really good value that shouldn't be delved away aka lands for GGT and more utility cards. I might try out 2 Grisly Salvage
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
One ofs like K-Command are a waste of space. Most cards need to have dredge, flashback, scavenge, or something. So many will go the graveyard. I love K Command in my Grixis Twin or Mardu Dragons, but it doesn't belong in Dredgevine. Most of the time you'll never be able to use K Command, or one of AD because they get milled. Two of if necessary, and mulligan to have one. Delve cards are also bad, like murderous cut unless you exile your fetches or something.
Dredgevine is not a delver deck, despite the interaction with our yard. Use something like Stinkwood Imp to deal with creatures, or Golgari Charm or Darkblast. Those two are our creature control. You really want to stay away from Delve cards because they will stress out your graveyard which is where you want your cards. It's like your hand.
Vexing Devil doesn't belong. You need to be fueling your graveyard aggressively to bring back key creatures, get dredge going, and have options turn one, namely Faithless Looting, Wayfinder, then Grisly Salvage. Then get your creatures coming out of your yard and dredge like crazy. Mulligan aggressively to ideally have some of your key spells and RG ready to go. Looking at Vexing Devil and Vengevine you go "wow, R vs 2GG ... both 4/3." Vexing is cheap! But in this deck, you should rarely hardcast Vengevine, and can haste him T3 if you fuel your graveyard, dredge, and get him in there with a couple something else's.
I think Dredgevine is sitting down in developing competitive both because we need a little love ala Collected Company power, and people are trying to make it do too many things and water down its core mechanic: fuel the graveyard for options and recursion.
The reason that these lists have to be 'watered down' is that there's a point where investing more in the graveyard doesn't pay off - the only creatures you can recur other than Vengevine are a bunch of 2/1s that can't block, which aren't particularly impressive. It'd be a different story if you could run more copies of Vengevine or had more enabler cards for stuff like Bridge from Below, but as it is now, you do need to rely a lot on your cards in hand.
Investing into the GY means you can play more Anglers/Mandrills whathave you. You can never get enough 5/5s when you are trying to run them over by turn 4. I certainly don't miss bloodghast, especially since nobody is playing control right now. It should be either removal or disruption in its place.
Has anyone tried the all in dredge version plan of this deck as of lately? I've seen most successful versions running GGT, and I've always been a fan of Stinkweed Imp. Maybe adding a few in in place of Bloodghast might fill the yard faster for more delve/recursion. Having Lightning Axe to go with it would allow for more discard along with Looting & Troll. It might speed up the recursion aspect of the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
The reason that these lists have to be 'watered down' is that there's a point where investing more in the graveyard doesn't pay off - the only creatures you can recur other than Vengevine are a bunch of 2/1s that can't block, which aren't particularly impressive. It'd be a different story if you could run more copies of Vengevine or had more enabler cards for stuff like Bridge from Below, but as it is now, you do need to rely a lot on your cards in hand.
Indeed, which is why I say the deck needs a little love. Either another decent recurring creature, or some other card with a Collected Company power profile. Gurmag and Mandrills, maybe even Tasigur in multiple copies seems better than some one ofs. Having 1 Vexing Devil for example, you better Milligan for him, because you have no way to tutor or get him out of the GY. At least with delve, you'll have the GY early to cast them cheap. Also need Life of the Loan in this deck. I'll post my daughter's update later. She plays Stompy and Dredgevine, although I help her with her decks. She just likes the way they play. May be there's some way to merge the two a bit.
Has anyone tried the all in dredge version plan of this deck as of lately? I've seen most successful versions running GGT, and I've always been a fan of Stinkweed Imp. Maybe adding a few in in place of Bloodghast might fill the yard faster for more delve/recursion. Having Lightning Axe to go with it would allow for more discard along with Looting & Troll. It might speed up the recursion aspect of the deck.
Well I'd rather sacrifice those 4-5 slots in the deck by having kind of answer spells in form of Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan Command or Lightning Axe than try to go all in explosive, face Cage, Moon, RiP or Ooze and watch my opponent destroys me with me having absolutely no answer to that hate.
I believe you cannot base your whole strategy on trying to return Vengevines. My list is a fast aggro with recurring creatures (Crawler, Ghast), grave fillers for VV, aforementioned recurring creatures, Anglers) (Satyr, Looting, salvage, Troll), and also has some sort of answers (decay, axe, cut, command). Unfortunately apart from Darkblast we don't have a decent flashback removal but when I go into topdeck mode I'd like to believe there is an answer somewhere which will allow me to remove the threat and start again.
Well I'd rather sacrifice those 4-5 slots in the deck by having kind of answer spells in form of Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan Command or Lightning Axe than try to go all in explosive, face Cage, Moon, RiP or Ooze and watch my opponent destroys me with me having absolutely no answer to that hate.
I believe you cannot base your whole strategy on trying to return Vengevines. My list is a fast aggro with recurring creatures (Crawler, Ghast), grave fillers for VV, aforementioned recurring creatures, Anglers) (Satyr, Looting, salvage, Troll), and also has some sort of answers (decay, axe, cut, command). Unfortunately apart from Darkblast we don't have a decent flashback removal but when I go into topdeck mode I'd like to believe there is an answer somewhere which will allow me to remove the threat and start again.
Well, nothing with modern mana efficiency. There are some like 2B flashback 5R, but that's not fast enough. Like Strangling Soot[/card/, Chainer's Edict, or Sever the Bloodline.
Not saying we got anything real special here, but here's the deck list we are using:
I like having a Vengeful Pharaoh as a one of. Also trying Deadly Allure, changes the board a bit when needed. Probably 2 for 1, but will eliminate things. Otherwise its Darkblast (which you can manage -2/-2 in a turn with) and some Abrupt Decay/Dismembers (early game where we need it, life isn't as bad to lose as creatures). Duress to grab some sideboarded things if necessary ... but mulligan to have one in opening hand. Hex Parasite because it can make use of of all sorts of counters (scooze, walkers, finks, etc), can even take out a planeswalker, ... or just eat removal spells leaving vengevine an opening to stick. Yes, I know, a few cards especially in SB that aren't recurring. Just hope you have them opening hand or mulligan aggressively for them. That or pray during topdecking.
Also tried Tymaret, but he's kind of ho-hum. Maybe SB.
How have I never seen Deadly Allure before? It seems perfect! I've been dieing to find a way to trade up when one of our guys gets blocked!
Hex Parasite looks like a pretty sweet tech. I've been getting demolished by T2 Scooze lately and hating it...I don't know what I'd take out of my side to make room for it though. Seems like it might also be a solid play against Affinity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You can't activate his -3 at instant speed though - most of the time your opponent will be searching during their turn or during your end step.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Well I struggle to find a point in running GGT in your version since you don't run Bloodghasts, don't run any delve beasts + you don't want Varolz to land in your grave. I would cut Devil, 1BOP, and Trolls and run 2 Mandrills/Tombstalker (evasion helps if you scavenge Shadow on them) + some spells - +1 Axe, +2 Decay, +1 Salvage.
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures - 24
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
3 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Rotting Rats
4 Faithless Looting
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Axe
2 Murderous Cut
1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spellskite
1 Damnation
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Maelstrom Pulse
And we also had another Dredgevine come in 4th place!
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Forest
2 Swamp
Creatures - 31
4 Bloodghast
4 Death's Shadow
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vengevine
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Tombstalker
4 Faithless Looting
4 Grisly Salvage
1 Darkblast
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
2 Essence Warden
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Back to Nature
1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thoughtseize
If any of you browse the thread, congratulations! You make us all proud
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
In the second two matches, I couldn't buy a good draw. I went through 35 cards vs. Zoo before seeing a single vine OR looting, and then the same happened G1 vs. Pod. Pod is a tough matchup, and I mistakenly didn't sideboard in a Damnation, but I think I should have at least 1-2'd the Zoo matchup.
The one thing I've always struggled with when playing Dredge-heavy versions is how to gauge what it's better to do. Also, T2 Spellskite into T3 Scooze is pretty well game over. Finished 8th of 19.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
He's probably talking about Melira Anafenza combo.
While I would probably agree that L237's list is the best Vine iteration for this metagame, the varolz version is super interesting. Death's Shadow is a major pet card of mine and I'd love to make it competitive in modern.
Draft My Cube!
From my testing, here is my experience! I went 5-4 for my first night running the deck. Ghost Quarter + Life from the Loam is a dirty, dirty combo once it comes online. It sealed the deal for me vs Tron. But, it only recurred once for me.
I think I am going to swap -1 fetchland for 1 Raven's Crime. I don't like the Murderous Cut with other delve spells that cost so much (Gurmag Angler, and there's a lot more stuff in the graveyard that can be utilized for really good value that shouldn't be delved away aka lands for GGT and more utility cards. I might try out 2 Grisly Salvage
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Dredgevine is not a delver deck, despite the interaction with our yard. Use something like Stinkwood Imp to deal with creatures, or Golgari Charm or Darkblast. Those two are our creature control. You really want to stay away from Delve cards because they will stress out your graveyard which is where you want your cards. It's like your hand.
Vexing Devil doesn't belong. You need to be fueling your graveyard aggressively to bring back key creatures, get dredge going, and have options turn one, namely Faithless Looting, Wayfinder, then Grisly Salvage. Then get your creatures coming out of your yard and dredge like crazy. Mulligan aggressively to ideally have some of your key spells and RG ready to go. Looking at Vexing Devil and Vengevine you go "wow, R vs 2GG ... both 4/3." Vexing is cheap! But in this deck, you should rarely hardcast Vengevine, and can haste him T3 if you fuel your graveyard, dredge, and get him in there with a couple something else's.
I think Dredgevine is sitting down in developing competitive both because we need a little love ala Collected Company power, and people are trying to make it do too many things and water down its core mechanic: fuel the graveyard for options and recursion.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Indeed, which is why I say the deck needs a little love. Either another decent recurring creature, or some other card with a Collected Company power profile. Gurmag and Mandrills, maybe even Tasigur in multiple copies seems better than some one ofs. Having 1 Vexing Devil for example, you better Milligan for him, because you have no way to tutor or get him out of the GY. At least with delve, you'll have the GY early to cast them cheap. Also need Life of the Loan in this deck. I'll post my daughter's update later. She plays Stompy and Dredgevine, although I help her with her decks. She just likes the way they play. May be there's some way to merge the two a bit.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Stinky is crucial.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
I believe you cannot base your whole strategy on trying to return Vengevines. My list is a fast aggro with recurring creatures (Crawler, Ghast), grave fillers for VV, aforementioned recurring creatures, Anglers) (Satyr, Looting, salvage, Troll), and also has some sort of answers (decay, axe, cut, command). Unfortunately apart from Darkblast we don't have a decent flashback removal but when I go into topdeck mode I'd like to believe there is an answer somewhere which will allow me to remove the threat and start again.
Well, nothing with modern mana efficiency. There are some like 2B flashback 5R, but that's not fast enough. Like Strangling Soot[/card/, Chainer's Edict, or Sever the Bloodline.
Not saying we got anything real special here, but here's the deck list we are using:
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Woodland Cemetery
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
3 Grisly Salvage
1 Life from the Loam
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Gravecrawler
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Lotleth Troll
1 Rotting Rats
3 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Vengevine
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
2 Hex Parasite
1 Darkblast
1 Deadly Allure
I like having a Vengeful Pharaoh as a one of. Also trying Deadly Allure, changes the board a bit when needed. Probably 2 for 1, but will eliminate things. Otherwise its Darkblast (which you can manage -2/-2 in a turn with) and some Abrupt Decay/Dismembers (early game where we need it, life isn't as bad to lose as creatures). Duress to grab some sideboarded things if necessary ... but mulligan to have one in opening hand. Hex Parasite because it can make use of of all sorts of counters (scooze, walkers, finks, etc), can even take out a planeswalker, ... or just eat removal spells leaving vengevine an opening to stick. Yes, I know, a few cards especially in SB that aren't recurring. Just hope you have them opening hand or mulligan aggressively for them. That or pray during topdecking.
Also tried Tymaret, but he's kind of ho-hum. Maybe SB.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Hex Parasite looks like a pretty sweet tech. I've been getting demolished by T2 Scooze lately and hating it...I don't know what I'd take out of my side to make room for it though. Seems like it might also be a solid play against Affinity.