I think situational 2 card combos are not where this deck wants to be. The biggest strength of this deck is that it is ridiculously consistent, most of our stuff works great in our hand or in our graveyard so that our initial 7 is almost always good, and our grisly salvages are always getting us more than just one card, and faithless looting basically reads (R) - draw 2 cards. Adding cards that are only good when paired with another of 4 copies in our deck that we need in hand is bad. Snap caster becoming good if you can snap back a faithless looting is way weaker than the hedron crab you're not running which would have put SIX cards in your graveyard by the time you're snapping back a faithless looting, and not cost you any mana to do it besides the initial investment.
When the deck works it's because EVERY creature card in your hand can be used to bring back venge vines by turn 2/3. It's good because you get attacking power or card draw just for playing lands that you were going to play anyway. Having creatures that don't support the game plan of using the graveyard as a massive draw engine and beating with recurring creatures is making the deck worse.
I think situational 2 card combos are not where this deck wants to be. The biggest strength of this deck is that it is ridiculously consistent, most of our stuff works great in our hand or in our graveyard so that our initial 7 is almost always good, and our grisly salvages are always getting us more than just one card, and faithless looting basically reads (R) - draw 2 cards. Adding cards that are only good when paired with another of 4 copies in our deck that we need in hand is bad. Snap caster becoming good if you can snap back a faithless looting is way weaker than the hedron crab you're not running which would have put SIX cards in your graveyard by the time you're snapping back a faithless looting, and not cost you any mana to do it besides the initial investment.
When the deck works it's because EVERY creature card in your hand can be used to bring back venge vines by turn 2/3. It's good because you get attacking power or card draw just for playing lands that you were going to play anyway. Having creatures that don't support the game plan of using the graveyard as a massive draw engine and beating with recurring creatures is making the deck worse.
I agree, I have had way more success with the straight up aggressive dredge than I have with the light dredge/combo versions. That being said I still am very interested in this combo
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
I'm going to be updating the front page of the forum shortly as soon as the transfer of ownership for the thread is complete. Is there anything you guys would like included? I plan on updating the creatures, sideboard, and other cards, as well as a little more information on the archetype. Please leave suggestions below.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Creamy, I think leaving Faithless Looting off of the front page core list is an egregious error.
Also, after looking at Evolutionary Leap a few more times I've decided I'm much less excited about it...I think I was just hyped because it made me re-read Survival.
Its interesting to me because it looks like he's running a relatively removal heavy version: 3 Murderous Cut, 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Darkblast, and 1 Kolaghan's Command maindeck. But most interesting is the fact that he's running a single Hooting Mandrills, and 2 Tasigur--which in my testing was the most worthless delve creature because bloat in the graveyard almost always meant I was getting back something I didn't want in my hand...like a Bloodghast or something. He placed 78th overall, but I can't imagine Tasigur being a better call for the deck than Angler or more Mandrills. He also mentions while talking about his sideboard that combo is one of the worst matchups for the deck but then goes on to say that Twin is his best matchup by far...which seems like a conflicting statement, but its possible that this is a result of his focus on removal. Either way, I'm glad to see a fellow Dredger doing well.
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Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
Its interesting to me because it looks like he's running a relatively removal heavy version: 3 Murderous Cut, 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Darkblast, and 1 Kolaghan's Command maindeck. But most interesting is the fact that he's running a single Hooting Mandrills, and 2 Tasigur--which in my testing was the most worthless delve creature because bloat in the graveyard almost always meant I was getting back something I didn't want in my hand...like a Bloodghast or something. He placed 78th overall, but I can't imagine Tasigur being a better call for the deck than Angler or more Mandrills. He also mentions while talking about his sideboard that combo is one of the worst matchups for the deck but then goes on to say that Twin is his best matchup by far...which seems like a conflicting statement, but its possible that this is a result of his focus on removal. Either way, I'm glad to see a fellow Dredger doing well.
Weird, no Wayfinders.
Schmack, I'm running _basically_ your build at a tourney tonight. Will report back with results. I'm playing in a Living End-heavy meta, which is kind of scary, but I'm trying to track down a Plunge Into Darkness to add to the SB for tonight only. I can't think of a bigger **** YOU to LE than that, though its applications elsewhere aren't awesome. (Good vs. Anger, good desperate move vs. Path, decent way to reset Gravecrawlers if Vine triggers are running low.)
I find twin to be a great matchup because you've usually got your board online in time to hold up mana for abrupt decay and the deck blanks almost all of their control options (creatures getting bolted to the graveyard is fine, vengevines can't be countered, they don't run exile effects so everything just comes back) and often times you can just kill them before they get their combo pieces.
I find rather that stuff like ad nauseum can be very hard as you either get your golgari charms in time or they combo off and you lose, as I have found we generally can't kill them through a phyrexian unlife fast enough.
Way finder is amazing though and if never drop it IMO
I'm going to be updating the front page of the forum shortly as soon as the transfer of ownership for the thread is complete. Is there anything you guys would like included? I plan on updating the creatures, sideboard, and other cards, as well as a little more information on the archetype. Please leave suggestions below.
As a new player to this deck and looking at other deck primers out there here are some things I would be interested in:
Basic Matchup Guide on good and bad matchups, as well as a sideboard list of potential cards to bring in.
Sideboard options that people have discussed and have applications in certain matchups you can tie them to.
The cards that are core to the deck and almost never change.
The flexible spots that people tinker with and what those decklists look like.
Tap, thats awesome, I'm stoked to hear it! I doubt we have the same sideboard, but against Living End is another time that surgical extraction would really shine--Combo decks hate it!(I know that sounds like a bad banner ad for viagra) Plus it gives you a look at their hand to gauge how far away they are from going off.
In response to the Twin subject, I don't know, I've played so many matches where I was just a point away from winning that it could easily be my habits that leave me open...but I also feel like being on the draw T2 is just the worst feeling against Twin because I'll either get timewalked with Remand or have a Deceiver flashed in at the end step if I play something. I also think that since T2 is definitely the most crucial turn for the deck, getting a Troll, Wayfinder, or Salvage off are absolutely necessary plays, and losing that turn against Twin means they have time to switch gears and go into Snapcaster/Value mode. It could very well be a personal Boogeyman feeling more than anything, but I really hate playing that deck. Any other control deck is my favorite matchup, they just can't deal with the recursive threats and get eaten alive--it feels like I'm the architect of impending doom and they can't avoid it, but the combo finish is a bit of a trouble spot for me. I think I may try and make room mainboard for a third abrupt decay.
I've literally never had to play against Ad Nauseum, but I understand how it could be an issue. With it placing high at a GP I'd definitely expect a meta shift and sideboard appropriately. Maybe more discard for a proactive approach?
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Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
You race Ad Nauseam. Swap out any removal you're running for any discard and/or extra gas you're packing in the board, and just assault them. You need to win by the end of your turn 5. Pray for decent draws. They don't have much that gets in the way other than Unlife and extra copies of Angel's Grace. *shrug*. We can do 30 pretty quick.
I find twin to be a great matchup because you've usually got your board online in time to hold up mana for abrupt decay and the deck blanks almost all of their control options (creatures getting bolted to the graveyard is fine, vengevines can't be countered, they don't run exile effects so everything just comes back) and often times you can just kill them before they get their combo pieces.
I find rather that stuff like ad nauseum can be very hard as you either get your golgari charms in time or they combo off and you lose, as I have found we generally can't kill them through a phyrexian unlife fast enough.
Way finder is amazing though and if never drop it IMO
I would totally agree with this. Usually I end up going into topdeck mode once things are in my favor on the board to keep drawing into removal.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
a few decks have things md like ooze. ut this deck canr afford to run maindeck discard for them.think of it like affinity. on the play g1 you should win most of the time but after sideboard you can slow it fown a bit and grind it out. the deck needs to kill t4 in game one consistently. test your versions guys. if it isnt doing that in a 30 game sample or so you need to streamline for speed
Would the new 1B Screeching Skaab from origins play well with Hedron Crab if we wanted to convert to a BUG makeup? Does it advance the deck's goals of filling the yard with an ETB?
Yeah way finder is probably better at filling the yard even without the zombie synergy. If you're really worried about having zombies in play to recur your crawlers a copy or two of rotting rats works really well but I haven't found it an issue between 4 crawlers, 4 trolls (that regen can be the difference between keeping your board or not) and a couple gurmags
I think if we were to play such a creature it would have to be pushed way more, like a 1/1 Zombie for B or milling more cards, or, as mentioned, being Satyr Wayfinder ;-)
Here's the card I want to see, which I can totally see them making something like it the next time Zombie tribal is in standard:
Severed Limb, B, Creature - Zombie, Uncommon, 1/0
When ~ ETBs, reveal the top 5 cards of your library. You may put a Zombie card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
yeah its going to be great in standard but it seems like sorcery speed salvage. you want to play it t2 and there its just worse than salvage since you cant get land
Considering Vengevine requires two creatures cast, I'd say you want two in your hand
But I don't think it's better than Salvage. Salvage is an instant, and can get a land drop if you need one.
Spell Mastery? In Dredge Vine? Our decks only have 10-14 inst/sorceress MAX
It's true, but we also tend to dump them into the yard pretty quickly. I'm going to test one, for sure. Seems like an incredible late-game top-deck, and is probably a feather in the cap of anyone making the Snapcaster argument in the BUG variant, which is more I/S-heavy to begin with.
Other than tinkering with new card options, I am going to be taking a break from Dredgevine for a bit. I've been playing it very actively for a year, and contributing actively to its development in this thread, and it's been fun, but at the end of the day it is still not a T1 deck and I want to up my game a bit. I'm going to be running Grixis Twin as my go-to for the next little while. I'll still check in as I tinker every now and then, but otherwise I will sadly be semi-retiring the deck.
I went 2-2 with DV at a tournament last night, wrecking burn, beating Grixis control, just-barely losing to MeliraPod, and getting decimated by Infect. I'm a little frustrated with how much luck it can sometimes require, like a combo deck, but how much it also still relies on your opponent's board state, like a fair deck. This frustration is primarily what's leading me away from the deck for now. Sadness. I'll be poking in every now and then though, and am excited to see where creamy's leadership takes it.
When the deck works it's because EVERY creature card in your hand can be used to bring back venge vines by turn 2/3. It's good because you get attacking power or card draw just for playing lands that you were going to play anyway. Having creatures that don't support the game plan of using the graveyard as a massive draw engine and beating with recurring creatures is making the deck worse.
I agree, I have had way more success with the straight up aggressive dredge than I have with the light dredge/combo versions. That being said I still am very interested in this combo
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Also, after looking at Evolutionary Leap a few more times I've decided I'm much less excited about it...I think I was just hyped because it made me re-read Survival.
And on another note, someone took Dredgevine to a day two at Charlotte and did a mini decktech while at the tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dur8glmy8uo
Its interesting to me because it looks like he's running a relatively removal heavy version: 3 Murderous Cut, 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Darkblast, and 1 Kolaghan's Command maindeck. But most interesting is the fact that he's running a single Hooting Mandrills, and 2 Tasigur--which in my testing was the most worthless delve creature because bloat in the graveyard almost always meant I was getting back something I didn't want in my hand...like a Bloodghast or something. He placed 78th overall, but I can't imagine Tasigur being a better call for the deck than Angler or more Mandrills. He also mentions while talking about his sideboard that combo is one of the worst matchups for the deck but then goes on to say that Twin is his best matchup by far...which seems like a conflicting statement, but its possible that this is a result of his focus on removal. Either way, I'm glad to see a fellow Dredger doing well.
Weird, no Wayfinders.
Schmack, I'm running _basically_ your build at a tourney tonight. Will report back with results. I'm playing in a Living End-heavy meta, which is kind of scary, but I'm trying to track down a Plunge Into Darkness to add to the SB for tonight only. I can't think of a bigger **** YOU to LE than that, though its applications elsewhere aren't awesome. (Good vs. Anger, good desperate move vs. Path, decent way to reset Gravecrawlers if Vine triggers are running low.)
EDIT: Will likely run a Viscera Seer instead.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I find rather that stuff like ad nauseum can be very hard as you either get your golgari charms in time or they combo off and you lose, as I have found we generally can't kill them through a phyrexian unlife fast enough.
Way finder is amazing though and if never drop it IMO
As a new player to this deck and looking at other deck primers out there here are some things I would be interested in:
Basic Matchup Guide on good and bad matchups, as well as a sideboard list of potential cards to bring in.
Sideboard options that people have discussed and have applications in certain matchups you can tie them to.
The cards that are core to the deck and almost never change.
The flexible spots that people tinker with and what those decklists look like.
Thanks.
In response to the Twin subject, I don't know, I've played so many matches where I was just a point away from winning that it could easily be my habits that leave me open...but I also feel like being on the draw T2 is just the worst feeling against Twin because I'll either get timewalked with Remand or have a Deceiver flashed in at the end step if I play something. I also think that since T2 is definitely the most crucial turn for the deck, getting a Troll, Wayfinder, or Salvage off are absolutely necessary plays, and losing that turn against Twin means they have time to switch gears and go into Snapcaster/Value mode. It could very well be a personal Boogeyman feeling more than anything, but I really hate playing that deck. Any other control deck is my favorite matchup, they just can't deal with the recursive threats and get eaten alive--it feels like I'm the architect of impending doom and they can't avoid it, but the combo finish is a bit of a trouble spot for me. I think I may try and make room mainboard for a third abrupt decay.
I've literally never had to play against Ad Nauseum, but I understand how it could be an issue. With it placing high at a GP I'd definitely expect a meta shift and sideboard appropriately. Maybe more discard for a proactive approach?
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I would totally agree with this. Usually I end up going into topdeck mode once things are in my favor on the board to keep drawing into removal.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Here's the card I want to see, which I can totally see them making something like it the next time Zombie tribal is in standard:
Severed Limb, B, Creature - Zombie, Uncommon, 1/0
When ~ ETBs, reveal the top 5 cards of your library. You may put a Zombie card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
But I don't think it's better than Salvage. Salvage is an instant, and can get a land drop if you need one.
Spell Mastery? In Dredge Vine? Our decks only have 10-14 inst/sorceress MAX
Draft My Cube!
It's true, but we also tend to dump them into the yard pretty quickly. I'm going to test one, for sure. Seems like an incredible late-game top-deck, and is probably a feather in the cap of anyone making the Snapcaster argument in the BUG variant, which is more I/S-heavy to begin with.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I went 2-2 with DV at a tournament last night, wrecking burn, beating Grixis control, just-barely losing to MeliraPod, and getting decimated by Infect. I'm a little frustrated with how much luck it can sometimes require, like a combo deck, but how much it also still relies on your opponent's board state, like a fair deck. This frustration is primarily what's leading me away from the deck for now. Sadness. I'll be poking in every now and then though, and am excited to see where creamy's leadership takes it.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine