Bridge or Altar have to go. Anything else is just leaving the door open for more "battle of sideboards" graveyard abuse. I also wouldn't mind just a blanket shot at removing Looting. They didn't care about killing multiple offending and collateral decks when they banned Probe, why should Looting be any different?
For the record, I own four foil signed copies of Faithless Looting. I would be happy to never see or play that card in Modern ever again.
Probe hit 2 decks, and forced 1 to be even better.
It also hit Grixis Control and many Delver strategies, which have been irrelevant ever since. Who knows if they would have survived anyway? But it was a killing blow to Delver with the addition of Fatal Push.
Looting, is too important a piece of the format imo. Its our Brainstorm.
I no longer care. Looting is an atrocity. And if they're going to look us in the face and tell us Looting is OK, then why in the living hell is Preordain banned?
Bridge + Altar will kill the deck, and if thats the goal, so be it.
Probe hit 2 decks, and forced 1 to be even better.
Looting, is too important a piece of the format imo. Its our Brainstorm.
Bridge + Altar will kill the deck, and if thats the goal, so be it.
DRS was also a core part of the format. If Wizards actually cared even a little bit about Legacy, Brainstorm would go. It is only allowed to exist because Legacy only matters to them when they print stuff like TNN and it sells like mad.
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If Looting is that important for some decks that would DIE just by the loss of it, really shows the absurd power of that card. Its a draw 4 for 1 mana in graveyard based decks. Thats insane. I agreed that it should go aswell.
First: Anyone that reads me, knows I believe the ban list is a joke. Comparing Preordain to Looting is problematic, but it is what it is. With Phoenix around, there's just no reason to unban it.
Second: Looting actually makes a lot of these decks. Yes its absurd levels of power, for the decks that can use it, but its not like you see it in Burn, or UWR Control, or "Insert deck with Red that is not a GY Deck".
Honestly it's a lot of sour grapes I think, and again I get it, that Red has the more format applicable Cantrip/Draw, followed by bloody GREEN in the format.
Anyone thats read this thread long enough knows I'm biased towards Blue.
I do agree, if Wizards cared about the format with decks which are 10's of Thousands of Dollars, they would have banned Brainstorm, but Looting is still not Brainstorm, even in decks which can abuse the discard.
Third: Probe was not a bad ban, on the end of it. It really wasnt. Delver would suck, Grixis Control would have morphed to Grixis Mid as it has done, and Storm adapted and become actually better for it.
Fourth: Ban Hogaak. That deck is going to ruin 2 events, if the Pro/Grinders have any kind of integrity and actually play the best deck.
Brainstorm is so synonymous with the format (legacy), they can't really touch the card. It would nuke at least half, probably more, decks in the format. I don't think they want to throw that stick of dynamite into the format.
We're not quite there with Faithless Looting, but I can see Modern becoming the "Looting" format.
Bridge or Altar have to go. Anything else is just leaving the door open for more "battle of sideboards" graveyard abuse. I also wouldn't mind just a blanket shot at removing Looting. They didn't care about killing multiple offending and collateral decks when they banned Probe, why should Looting be any different?
For the record, I own four foil signed copies of Faithless Looting. I would be happy to never see or play that card in Modern ever again.
We just got a manaless instant speed board wipe, a manaless counterspell (though it only hits non creatures), a manaless way to wipe out enablers like Altar, a reprint of Leyline of the Void, and several other ways. I think we're fine here.
The Force cycle doesn't do enough. Force of Despair is much better than people are giving it credit for, but most of the decks you need the speed of a free wipe against can just reestablish their board.
Force of Despair is barely a speedbump for Hogaak, Bloodghast, Vengevine, and Gravecrawler, along with Phoenix. It's hardly a decent safety valve for Hogaak. Force of Vigor might help you stop the combo kill using Altar, but you're 2 for 1ing yourself against a deck that can recur the entire grave against you.
Against fair-ish creature decks, Force of Despair is a decent safety valve card. As long as at least 2 creatures hit the battlefield, it's an even trade on card resources. It's the dredge problem. It's fine if a deck is resilient to removal, or fast, or has a combo kill… but when it has all three that require different hate pieces, the deck is much harder to keep in check.
The Force cycle doesn't do enough. Force of Despair is much better than people are giving it credit for, but most of the decks you need the speed of a free wipe against can just reestablish their board.
Force of Despair is barely a speedbump for Hogaak, Bloodghast, Vengevine, and Gravecrawler, along with Phoenix. It's hardly a decent safety valve for Hogaak. Force of Vigor might help you stop the combo kill using Altar, but you're 2 for 1ing yourself against a deck that can recur the entire grave against you.
Against fair-ish creature decks, Force of Despair is a decent safety valve card. As long as at least 2 creatures hit the battlefield, it's an even trade on card resources. It's the dredge problem. It's fine if a deck is resilient to removal, or fast, or has a combo kill… but when it has all three that require different hate pieces, the deck is much harder to keep in check.
The big issue with Hogaak is that they can trigger Bridge and go off again, but even then we have Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb that are GY hate on turn 1.
I'd think the major issue is, if they 'go off' you can Force of Despair all you want, you have no library, you lose on your Draw step, and they can do this at instant speed. So...yeah.
I no longer care. Looting is an atrocity. And if they're going to look us in the face and tell us Looting is OK, then why in the living hell is Preordain banned?
This just made me laugh, cause two years ago the same argument was made against Ancient Stirrings
Oh well.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'd think the major issue is, if they 'go off' you can Force of Despair all you want, you have no library, you lose on your Draw step, and they can do this at instant speed. So...yeah.
Force of Despair isn't great against them, at least not against the mill plan, but it's effective if they're just playing creatures. Any decks that attack from several angles though are hard to deal with.
Yep, I would argue that's why BridgeVine before this never took off. It only had a creature plan.
Dredge has Conflag.
Phoenix has a number of B Sides.
This new deck is just an even faster Dredge with an engine that has a bonus of milling your opponent on your own Turn 3 and the only meaningful answers are all Turn 0 and/or free.
It really is an abomination that has no place existing in Modern.
Funny thing is that they can nuke it, and Dredge wouldn't be hit at all.
Any decks that attack from several angles though are hard to deal with.
this is pretty much a prerequisite for any competitive deck in modern atm.
i mean that is really what has been changing the landscape of modern. its not the rise of 'hyper linear' decks or whatever you want to call it, but rather the rise of lean aggressive strategies that have resiliency and adaptability/flexibility baked in.
so play patterns gravitate towards extremes. games feel more like jousting and less like fencing with critical, usually game deciding, decision points instead of accruing small advantages in resources or board position.
really i think that is why people dislike these GY centric decks. the forms of interaction (ie hate) intrinsically 'swingy' compared to removal, discard, or counter magic.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
"You can't spend mana to cast this spell"
As if that's a big drawback.
Also, just ban the hogaak, altar is cool and bridge was never a problem before
I really hope they just go for the throat. Why even risk it? I don't want another Forsythe 'I think it has interesting lines of play' nonsense. I want 'In the interests of competitive diversity' nuke it from orbit.
I'm 64 days from really not caring, but I would like to be able to run something other than 2 Surgical, a RIP, Ravenous Trap x 3 in my 75 until then.
So this new mill deck wins either by dredge style creature rush or turbo mill. That means pillow port will have a spot light or turbo fog. Ghostly Prison and singleton main deck Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. That's so much fun. For those of you who have never thought of that as an anti-mill card, it's amazing. I play it in one of my decks all of the time. O and you're welcome. I only give you all the best SB cards solutions ever.
If you're going to go that route, you're better off with Kozilek than Emrakul. Most Modern decks are legitimately incapable of casting Emrakul due to not having enough lands that produce mana--Kozilek is still a tall order, but most decks can at least potentially cast him at some point. Sure, the difference is minimal, but Kozilek is the better option. I suppose Emrakul is better in that there's more decks that can play him so if you purchase a copy you can do more with it, but in terms of pure gameplay Kozilek is a strict upgrade, if an extremely marginal one.
I don't want Looting to go, mainly because one of my two favourite decks in the format (Mardu Pyromancer) is using it in the fairest case scenario. When I'm just discarding two Lingering Souls to Looting, it's a good card, but not broken.
But I feel like I might need to take one for the team.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I'd think the major issue is, if they 'go off' you can Force of Despair all you want, you have no library, you lose on your Draw step, and they can do this at instant speed. So...yeah.
I think the mill really is the problem. Have got used to dredge and phoenix creature rushes already.. but there's no way to also get used to the mill. It's too much when to have include pithing needle or runed halo.. so as to have protection from being decked out by altar. In my opinion the altar and the bridge should go.
Well, and I'm not wishing for the ban of looting.. but won't hold a grudge if they ban it as well.
"You can't spend mana to cast this spell"
As if that's a big drawback.
Also, just ban the hogaak, altar is cool and bridge was never a problem before
I believe this is the correct ban. Bridge Vine gets a strict upgrade in Carrion Feeder over Viscera Seer, but still is a manageable deck. Altar is not a given in the deck anymore because the mill plan is not deterministic without Hogaak. (You need a lotta Vengevines, Bridges, and Bloodghasts right away.)
Any decks that attack from several angles though are hard to deal with.
this is pretty much a prerequisite for any competitive deck in modern atm.
i mean that is really what has been changing the landscape of modern. its not the rise of 'hyper linear' decks or whatever you want to call it, but rather the rise of lean aggressive strategies that have resiliency and adaptability/flexibility baked in.
so play patterns gravitate towards extremes. games feel more like jousting and less like fencing with critical, usually game deciding, decision points instead of accruing small advantages in resources or board position.
really i think that is why people dislike these GY centric decks. the forms of interaction (ie hate) intrinsically 'swingy' compared to removal, discard, or counter magic.
Yep. You force your opponent to have TWO different ways to stop your angles AND a win-con of their own.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Next ban announcement is july 8 right? Should we expect a ban on the 8th?
not at all, at least if you are going by wizards actions up to now. they have said explicitly and implicitly time and time again that they take the long-view in evaluating formats, especially non-rotating ones, because the depth of the card pool and meta ecosystem. this is the basis for their relatively conservative banlist decisions, even if it comes at the expense of community backlash/criticism or in cases less than stellar format environments for periods that established players have to suffer through. note im not talking about whether anyone thinks this is a good or bad way to run formats, its just a statement on what we can expect based on past actions.
i mean just think about it pragmatically, we are talking about a month from a deck appearing without a whole lot of high profile paper results. no matter what side of the fence anyone is on regarding the deck, based on that alone it should get the benefit of the doubt until the b&r announcement AFTER the july 8th one. maybe its utterly dominant or warping or whatever, but that would be what - 3 to 4 months total? in the grand scheme of things that is barely anything.
if a ban is plausible it would be for two reasons: mtgo data that we arent seeing shows it as absurdly way off the scale and or its a kneejerk reaction before the next modern mythic championship. the latter being based on perception and viewership in a period where wizards is trying to put their best foot forward for arena and paper magic alike to reach a broader market. similarly they may choose NOT to ban for the same reason (ie making sure the format looks different from the previous MC). either way its not really dealing with player experience but moreso the outward facing surface image of the format.
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For the record, I own four foil signed copies of Faithless Looting. I would be happy to never see or play that card in Modern ever again.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Looting, is too important a piece of the format imo. Its our Brainstorm.
Bridge + Altar will kill the deck, and if thats the goal, so be it.
Spirits
It also hit Grixis Control and many Delver strategies, which have been irrelevant ever since. Who knows if they would have survived anyway? But it was a killing blow to Delver with the addition of Fatal Push.
I no longer care. Looting is an atrocity. And if they're going to look us in the face and tell us Looting is OK, then why in the living hell is Preordain banned?
Nuke it from orbit.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
DRS was also a core part of the format. If Wizards actually cared even a little bit about Legacy, Brainstorm would go. It is only allowed to exist because Legacy only matters to them when they print stuff like TNN and it sells like mad.
Second: Looting actually makes a lot of these decks. Yes its absurd levels of power, for the decks that can use it, but its not like you see it in Burn, or UWR Control, or "Insert deck with Red that is not a GY Deck".
Honestly it's a lot of sour grapes I think, and again I get it, that Red has the more format applicable Cantrip/Draw, followed by bloody GREEN in the format.
Anyone thats read this thread long enough knows I'm biased towards Blue.
I do agree, if Wizards cared about the format with decks which are 10's of Thousands of Dollars, they would have banned Brainstorm, but Looting is still not Brainstorm, even in decks which can abuse the discard.
Third: Probe was not a bad ban, on the end of it. It really wasnt. Delver would suck, Grixis Control would have morphed to Grixis Mid as it has done, and Storm adapted and become actually better for it.
Fourth: Ban Hogaak. That deck is going to ruin 2 events, if the Pro/Grinders have any kind of integrity and actually play the best deck.
Spirits
We're not quite there with Faithless Looting, but I can see Modern becoming the "Looting" format.
We just got a manaless instant speed board wipe, a manaless counterspell (though it only hits non creatures), a manaless way to wipe out enablers like Altar, a reprint of Leyline of the Void, and several other ways. I think we're fine here.
Force of Despair is barely a speedbump for Hogaak, Bloodghast, Vengevine, and Gravecrawler, along with Phoenix. It's hardly a decent safety valve for Hogaak. Force of Vigor might help you stop the combo kill using Altar, but you're 2 for 1ing yourself against a deck that can recur the entire grave against you.
Against fair-ish creature decks, Force of Despair is a decent safety valve card. As long as at least 2 creatures hit the battlefield, it's an even trade on card resources. It's the dredge problem. It's fine if a deck is resilient to removal, or fast, or has a combo kill… but when it has all three that require different hate pieces, the deck is much harder to keep in check.
The big issue with Hogaak is that they can trigger Bridge and go off again, but even then we have Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb that are GY hate on turn 1.
Spirits
Oh well.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Force of Despair isn't great against them, at least not against the mill plan, but it's effective if they're just playing creatures. Any decks that attack from several angles though are hard to deal with.
Dredge has Conflag.
Phoenix has a number of B Sides.
This new deck is just an even faster Dredge with an engine that has a bonus of milling your opponent on your own Turn 3 and the only meaningful answers are all Turn 0 and/or free.
It really is an abomination that has no place existing in Modern.
Funny thing is that they can nuke it, and Dredge wouldn't be hit at all.
Altar and Bridge.
Spirits
As if that's a big drawback.
Also, just ban the hogaak, altar is cool and bridge was never a problem before
i mean that is really what has been changing the landscape of modern. its not the rise of 'hyper linear' decks or whatever you want to call it, but rather the rise of lean aggressive strategies that have resiliency and adaptability/flexibility baked in.
so play patterns gravitate towards extremes. games feel more like jousting and less like fencing with critical, usually game deciding, decision points instead of accruing small advantages in resources or board position.
really i think that is why people dislike these GY centric decks. the forms of interaction (ie hate) intrinsically 'swingy' compared to removal, discard, or counter magic.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I really hope they just go for the throat. Why even risk it? I don't want another Forsythe 'I think it has interesting lines of play' nonsense. I want 'In the interests of competitive diversity' nuke it from orbit.
I'm 64 days from really not caring, but I would like to be able to run something other than 2 Surgical, a RIP, Ravenous Trap x 3 in my 75 until then.
Give me a few months to play Mentor.
Spirits
But I feel like I might need to take one for the team.
I think the mill really is the problem. Have got used to dredge and phoenix creature rushes already.. but there's no way to also get used to the mill. It's too much when to have include pithing needle or runed halo.. so as to have protection from being decked out by altar. In my opinion the altar and the bridge should go.
Well, and I'm not wishing for the ban of looting.. but won't hold a grudge if they ban it as well.
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I believe this is the correct ban. Bridge Vine gets a strict upgrade in Carrion Feeder over Viscera Seer, but still is a manageable deck. Altar is not a given in the deck anymore because the mill plan is not deterministic without Hogaak. (You need a lotta Vengevines, Bridges, and Bloodghasts right away.)
Yep. You force your opponent to have TWO different ways to stop your angles AND a win-con of their own.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)And this is why Control becomes Prison, and you are better off asking Questions than providing Answers.
Spirits
i mean just think about it pragmatically, we are talking about a month from a deck appearing without a whole lot of high profile paper results. no matter what side of the fence anyone is on regarding the deck, based on that alone it should get the benefit of the doubt until the b&r announcement AFTER the july 8th one. maybe its utterly dominant or warping or whatever, but that would be what - 3 to 4 months total? in the grand scheme of things that is barely anything.
if a ban is plausible it would be for two reasons: mtgo data that we arent seeing shows it as absurdly way off the scale and or its a kneejerk reaction before the next modern mythic championship. the latter being based on perception and viewership in a period where wizards is trying to put their best foot forward for arena and paper magic alike to reach a broader market. similarly they may choose NOT to ban for the same reason (ie making sure the format looks different from the previous MC). either way its not really dealing with player experience but moreso the outward facing surface image of the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)