You still die to the boardstate with the Knowledge Pool lock, and your own spells become awful too. That makes me wonder if the Knowledge Pool lock is in any way better than just the regular control lock of Cryptic Commanding everything whilst drawing 4 cards per turn.
With Knowledge Pool I'd become interested in running some Azorius Signets both to power out Pool and to become able to maybe run Thirst for Knowledge.
Question. Which Teferi in the deck comboes with the knowledge pool? thanks.
And the new Narset is slightly annoying, with the draw restriction ability on faithless looting. Had to add two more Dreadbore to my Mardu Pyro deck to help get rid of her and the new Ashiok which is also a pain.
Question. Which Teferi in the deck comboes with the knowledge pool? thanks.
Both Teferi Time Reveler and Teferi Mage of Zhalfir create a softlock with Knowledge Pool. With one of those Teferis and Knowledge Pool on the table, whenever your opponent casts a spell from hand it will get exiled. They then get to choose a spell under Knowledge Pool to cast but since this is a triggered ability, they are casting whatever they are casting at instant speed (even when cast in their own main phase). Both Teferis forbid this, so the opponent can't cast any spells.
Lavinia Azorius Renegade does effectively the same thing as these Teferis, and Spell Queller's cast on death trigger interacts similarly to Knowledge Pool with Lavinia and Teferis.
It also works with Delay. My brother was trying to brew a deck using the new Teferi, Spell Queller and Delay. Seems pretty cool but I feel decks like this struggle vs fast aggro decks like Phoenix and Dredge.
It also works with Delay. My brother was trying to brew a deck using the new Teferi, Spell Queller and Delay. Seems pretty cool but I feel decks like this struggle vs fast aggro decks like Phoenix and Dredge.
Yeah, seems like a sweet idea, but Modern is not about grindy late game value, it's about brutal speed and efficiency. If you aren't winning, or in a commanding position within the first 3-4 turns, you're likely losing that game.
both queller and delay are pretty much the opposite of grindy late game value (as clear tempo centric cards).
as for the knowledge pool lock, its just unreasonable to play 3-4 copies of a 6 cmc artifact that is absolute garbage on its own. a common way to assess such mini-combos is to look at worst and poor/average cases. the new 3 cmc teferi is a passable inclusion on its own. combining it with a 6 mana play, likely on curve at best, for something that might not even impact the outcome of the game; seems much less so. ive been wrong before, and will most definitely be again, but atm im writing off that 9th place finish in the classic as a fluke.
the concept of a control deck working towards a soft lock, but not necessarily bending over backwards to assemble it, seems strategically sound given the high powered stuff any one deck in modern can put together given the time. just look at how dominant UW miracles was in legacy with SDT and counterbalance, and is still now to a lesser degree with JUST counterbalance. in that regard combos that can just win the game, which is even better, are also inordinately strong when the deck can afford to do other things; as evidenced by the likes of twin or pod.
that said UWx control was given multiple tools to help with what it historically struggled at; actually holding control of a game once taken. classic blue control, to an extent, is by nature trying to lock their opponent off of making relevant plays after pushing the boardstate to parity; except its done implicitly with overwhelming resource generation and permission being the strongest form of response due by ignoring card type and battlefield effects. in that sense getting jace and or teferi online with the shields up is pretty close to a lock (like bearscape mentioned).
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Very well put tronix and exactly my thoughts. I really like the idea of the Knowledge Pool combo since it involves a lot of the cards I love, but I think it falls at the same hurdle many brews do in Modern in that you just end up doing something reasonable that other established decks already do better.
If you want to rush to the combo there are much quicker options and if you want to control to end with a lock JtMS and bigTef already do this.
So far, the ban mania about Neoform has not panned out from a results perspective. We are two Challenges in the books since WAR and only a single T32 placement to show for it, which came two weeks ago at around 30th place. We also have a 2nd place IQ finish at a Newington SCG event (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/129156), but no other T8s at the 5 other SCG events that weekend including the larger Classic. I also found 5 other non-SCG paper events reported last weekend, also with no Neobrand showings.
Yes, it's early in the WAR release and prospective pilots might need to obtain the cards needed for Neobrand. Yes, the deck isn't fully refined and needs some tuning before reaching an optimal version. Yes, the metagame is still evolving and we won't have a good picture of it until after the Mythic results, WAR, and MH have settled. Even acknowledging those factors, however, the deck has seen a very mediocre and unimpressive competitive debut. I am much more excited by the UWx staples and their consistent performance.
Stoneforge Mystic is still a sad and pathetic card to keep banned. I literally only want it unbanned to sell my copies, because I firmly believe it would be a terrible card to actually play in this harsh, fast, and devastatingly powerful format.
Without free counterspells like Daze and Force of Will it is flat out too slow and not nearly powerful enough. And no, Disrupting Shoal is not good enough. It's sad how afraid of Stoneforge Mystic people (and Wizards) are. It reminds me of how afraid people were of Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Remember when the format was going to be broken to pieces by those super overpowered cards?
Horizons has to be a big fail and Azorius has to be doing awful for an SFM unban. I seriously doubt Abzan would benefit from it, the deck has been irrelevent for 2 years since GDS was the deck to beat. SFM doesn't change it's problems being clunky.
Izzet Phoenix feels like the best thing to be playing in modern right now. It's proactive, can have unfair openers, it can play the control game, it doesn't just fall apart to some axis of hate (except a clock and healthy removal), it's decently consistent due to the abundance of cantrips, and you actually see your hate cards due ripping through the deck.
Wish Tron has been interesting, tutoring for Ballista/O-Stone/Wurm is fun. Bridge feels not right in this deck so far. Lattice is rarely the first thing to tutor for unless I'm playing a deck that has zero interaction. It closes the door, certainly.
It gets harder and harder to play anything that has no proactiveness to it. I won like no FNM's with GBx decks, first night of playing Izzet in paper and I stomp on people (except that GB player that ended up going 2-2). Doing 10 damage to a Humans on turn 2 and the player knowing the game was already over was dumb. It got no attention at the Mythic Championship but it did fantastic in the constructed side of things.
The new set is fantastic...for Tron, along with some fun blue card stuff. Curious to see if Horizon helps out fair GBx decks. Shadow is still great deck but a horrible meta choice for the time being.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
Well, isn't that logical? Why on earth would you love (or not hate for that matter) Tron as a midrange or control player? Playing against it is mostly a miserable uphill experience that can blow you up at any random point. It is very easy to have played the perfect game as a control deck, have set up an advantage, have them on 0 cards in hand, and they just draw their random Ulamog and win any way.
Or have them draw T3 tron into Karn which you counter, into T4 Ulamog which you also counter, but then lose anyway. You are punished for having the answers to their threats basically. I don't see why you wouldn't hate it.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
Sorry, made a mistake. I guess tiredness from the whole day of testing took a toll on my understanding.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
Well, isn't that logical? Why on earth would you love (or not hate for that matter) Tron as a midrange or control player? Playing against it is mostly a miserable uphill experience that can blow you up at any random point. It is very easy to have played the perfect game as a control deck, have set up an advantage, have them on 0 cards in hand, and they just draw their random Ulamog and win any way.
Or have them draw T3 tron into Karn which you counter, into T4 Ulamog which you also counter, but then lose anyway. You are punished for having the answers to their threats basically. I don't see why you wouldn't hate it.
Except that wasn't the point I made. The point was that Tron's weaknesses are well-known. You go underneath. If you want to beat tron, play something that is better against tron. It feels to me that oftentimes the people who only like midrange and control want to ban everything that beats them. I have, however, addressed your post's general point before: everyone in modern has to sometimes sit across from an opponent where they will be a three to one underdog. ***** happens.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
Well, isn't that logical? Why on earth would you love (or not hate for that matter) Tron as a midrange or control player? Playing against it is mostly a miserable uphill experience that can blow you up at any random point. It is very easy to have played the perfect game as a control deck, have set up an advantage, have them on 0 cards in hand, and they just draw their random Ulamog and win any way.
Or have them draw T3 tron into Karn which you counter, into T4 Ulamog which you also counter, but then lose anyway. You are punished for having the answers to their threats basically. I don't see why you wouldn't hate it.
Except that wasn't the point I made. The point was that Tron's weaknesses are well-known. You go underneath. If you want to beat tron, play something that is better against tron. It feels to me that oftentimes the people who only like midrange and control want to ban everything that beats them. I have, however, addressed your post's general point before: everyone in modern has to sometimes sit across from an opponent where they will be a three to one underdog. ***** happens.
I don't disagree. I hate Tron. I hate playing against it, and every time I win against it I feel like I FLIPPING DESERVED IT. But do I want Tron banned? No. And I don't think your generalization holds. I don't see any bandwagon of midrange/control players wanting to ban anything from Tron.
There was (and still is I think) a case for Ancient Stirring but that was related to KCI and similar colorless decks and not Tron so much.
I thought Confidant wasn't affected because you don't "draw" the card explicitly, but rather just reveal it, then put it into your hand?
Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
Well, isn't that logical? Why on earth would you love (or not hate for that matter) Tron as a midrange or control player? Playing against it is mostly a miserable uphill experience that can blow you up at any random point. It is very easy to have played the perfect game as a control deck, have set up an advantage, have them on 0 cards in hand, and they just draw their random Ulamog and win any way.
Or have them draw T3 tron into Karn which you counter, into T4 Ulamog which you also counter, but then lose anyway. You are punished for having the answers to their threats basically. I don't see why you wouldn't hate it.
Except that wasn't the point I made. The point was that Tron's weaknesses are well-known. You go underneath. If you want to beat tron, play something that is better against tron. It feels to me that oftentimes the people who only like midrange and control want to ban everything that beats them. I have, however, addressed your post's general point before: everyone in modern has to sometimes sit across from an opponent where they will be a three to one underdog. ***** happens.
since we are at the tron topic. There is indeed a small bandwagon of people who dislike playing against Tron at page 3 of "Least Favorite Decks to Play Against" thread. However, there is no one there who asked for bannings. It's the bad matchup of my BG delirium deck, so try to dodge it in FNM. And when Tron does appear, I side in two unravel the aether and hope for the best.
The match up is so bad, it's not worth dedicating sideboard slots for it. Unravels in the sideabord are there because of hardened affinity, not because of tron. Anyway, would just say again, I'm not one of the people asking for a ban on anything in Tron.
Tournament report by a person who used the deck. https://old.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/blfctl/uw_teferis_pool_tournament_report_9th_scg/
Teferi Pool lock seems to be a decent combo. Although a little slow.
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With Knowledge Pool I'd become interested in running some Azorius Signets both to power out Pool and to become able to maybe run Thirst for Knowledge.
And the new Narset is slightly annoying, with the draw restriction ability on faithless looting. Had to add two more Dreadbore to my Mardu Pyro deck to help get rid of her and the new Ashiok which is also a pain.
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Both Teferi Time Reveler and Teferi Mage of Zhalfir create a softlock with Knowledge Pool. With one of those Teferis and Knowledge Pool on the table, whenever your opponent casts a spell from hand it will get exiled. They then get to choose a spell under Knowledge Pool to cast but since this is a triggered ability, they are casting whatever they are casting at instant speed (even when cast in their own main phase). Both Teferis forbid this, so the opponent can't cast any spells.
Lavinia Azorius Renegade does effectively the same thing as these Teferis, and Spell Queller's cast on death trigger interacts similarly to Knowledge Pool with Lavinia and Teferis.
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URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Yeah, seems like a sweet idea, but Modern is not about grindy late game value, it's about brutal speed and efficiency. If you aren't winning, or in a commanding position within the first 3-4 turns, you're likely losing that game.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
as for the knowledge pool lock, its just unreasonable to play 3-4 copies of a 6 cmc artifact that is absolute garbage on its own. a common way to assess such mini-combos is to look at worst and poor/average cases. the new 3 cmc teferi is a passable inclusion on its own. combining it with a 6 mana play, likely on curve at best, for something that might not even impact the outcome of the game; seems much less so. ive been wrong before, and will most definitely be again, but atm im writing off that 9th place finish in the classic as a fluke.
the concept of a control deck working towards a soft lock, but not necessarily bending over backwards to assemble it, seems strategically sound given the high powered stuff any one deck in modern can put together given the time. just look at how dominant UW miracles was in legacy with SDT and counterbalance, and is still now to a lesser degree with JUST counterbalance. in that regard combos that can just win the game, which is even better, are also inordinately strong when the deck can afford to do other things; as evidenced by the likes of twin or pod.
that said UWx control was given multiple tools to help with what it historically struggled at; actually holding control of a game once taken. classic blue control, to an extent, is by nature trying to lock their opponent off of making relevant plays after pushing the boardstate to parity; except its done implicitly with overwhelming resource generation and permission being the strongest form of response due by ignoring card type and battlefield effects. in that sense getting jace and or teferi online with the shields up is pretty close to a lock (like bearscape mentioned).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)If you want to rush to the combo there are much quicker options and if you want to control to end with a lock JtMS and bigTef already do this.
Yes, it's early in the WAR release and prospective pilots might need to obtain the cards needed for Neobrand. Yes, the deck isn't fully refined and needs some tuning before reaching an optimal version. Yes, the metagame is still evolving and we won't have a good picture of it until after the Mythic results, WAR, and MH have settled. Even acknowledging those factors, however, the deck has seen a very mediocre and unimpressive competitive debut. I am much more excited by the UWx staples and their consistent performance.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Izzet Phoenix feels like the best thing to be playing in modern right now. It's proactive, can have unfair openers, it can play the control game, it doesn't just fall apart to some axis of hate (except a clock and healthy removal), it's decently consistent due to the abundance of cantrips, and you actually see your hate cards due ripping through the deck.
Wish Tron has been interesting, tutoring for Ballista/O-Stone/Wurm is fun. Bridge feels not right in this deck so far. Lattice is rarely the first thing to tutor for unless I'm playing a deck that has zero interaction. It closes the door, certainly.
It gets harder and harder to play anything that has no proactiveness to it. I won like no FNM's with GBx decks, first night of playing Izzet in paper and I stomp on people (except that GB player that ended up going 2-2). Doing 10 damage to a Humans on turn 2 and the player knowing the game was already over was dumb. It got no attention at the Mythic Championship but it did fantastic in the constructed side of things.
The new set is fantastic...for Tron, along with some fun blue card stuff. Curious to see if Horizon helps out fair GBx decks. Shadow is still great deck but a horrible meta choice for the time being.
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Other note, here's the thing I love about the tron hate: it is well known that several decks are good against tron. Valakut, burn, infect, storm, ad nausea, all great choices. What tron is good against is known, yet the folks who hate tron also hate everything that beats tron.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Or have them draw T3 tron into Karn which you counter, into T4 Ulamog which you also counter, but then lose anyway. You are punished for having the answers to their threats basically. I don't see why you wouldn't hate it.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Sorry, made a mistake. I guess tiredness from the whole day of testing took a toll on my understanding.
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Except that wasn't the point I made. The point was that Tron's weaknesses are well-known. You go underneath. If you want to beat tron, play something that is better against tron. It feels to me that oftentimes the people who only like midrange and control want to ban everything that beats them. I have, however, addressed your post's general point before: everyone in modern has to sometimes sit across from an opponent where they will be a three to one underdog. ***** happens.
There was (and still is I think) a case for Ancient Stirring but that was related to KCI and similar colorless decks and not Tron so much.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
since we are at the tron topic. There is indeed a small bandwagon of people who dislike playing against Tron at page 3 of "Least Favorite Decks to Play Against" thread. However, there is no one there who asked for bannings. It's the bad matchup of my BG delirium deck, so try to dodge it in FNM. And when Tron does appear, I side in two unravel the aether and hope for the best.
The match up is so bad, it's not worth dedicating sideboard slots for it. Unravels in the sideabord are there because of hardened affinity, not because of tron. Anyway, would just say again, I'm not one of the people asking for a ban on anything in Tron.
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