Matt Nass and LSV did a take on unban opinions for SFM, Twin, GSZ, Chrome Mox, and the artifact lands. Regardless of any other take, it still amazes me that people think
SFM would warp the format, even to homogenize the fair decks.
It's funny to see Pro Players talk about fair decks as if they're a big part of Modern. If Modern ever became a fair on fair format, then and only then would Stoneforge Mystic possibly be a bad idea for Modern.
Another thing that stood out to me when Nass and LSV were talking is that Splinter Twin is prone to removal. So is Stoneforge Mystic in a way, at least in a fast format like Modern. Sure, it is not a 2 for 1. It is actually card advantage when Stoneforge Mystic is killed, but Batterskull on turn 5 at the earliest after removal on Mystic doesn't seem to be ultra powerful to me. Maybe it is to others? Maybe it is in a slow format? This is not the format of Modern that we play in nowadays.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
SSG, Serum Powder, and Gemstone Caverns have all seemed like poor ideas for any balanced format, IMO. As someone who owns quite a few of them, I'd be happy to see them all leave the format. The numbers never backed up that kind of decision in the past, but seeing inconsistent super-speed decks wipe out a few players randomly in big tournaments always seemed like poor format health to me. If they're even more problematic now, that just makes me happy to push them out with other "free" broken stuff in Modern.
broken? Which tier 1 decks using this cards you talk about? Can't see any.... Even not 1. Our ban decisions now only feelings what could be broken in the future? If there is no deck using this cards and beeing broken, so it is not needed talking about bannings
Yeah, it was surprising to see how they consider Splinter Twin easier to hate with removal spells than Stoneforge Mystic when they are actually mentioning 1 mana removal spells like Dismember as answers
Commenting on Chrome Mox and artifact lands (both are extremely powerful) before other much more innocuous stuff like Punishing Fire was quite surprising to me. I think Birthing Pod, Dig Through Time or Ponder would have been more interesting cards to discuss here IMO.
I liked their reasoning with Green Sun's Zenith and how it could shape Devoted Druid decks more towards Melira than to Vizier, I think it could enhance the deck without making it OP so that would be an interesting addition to the format. Not sure if Dryad Arbor off GSZ would still be an interaction that would give the deck too much consistency in the early game but I think it's worth testing it.
Anyway, I don't expect changes until Modern Horizons is released and the metagame has settled afterwards.
SSG, Serum Powder, and Gemstone Caverns have all seemed like poor ideas for any balanced format, IMO. As someone who owns quite a few of them, I'd be happy to see them all leave the format. The numbers never backed up that kind of decision in the past, but seeing inconsistent super-speed decks wipe out a few players randomly in big tournaments always seemed like poor format health to me. If they're even more problematic now, that just makes me happy to push them out with other "free" broken stuff in Modern.
broken? Which tier 1 decks using this cards you talk about? Can't see any.... Even not 1. Our ban decisions now only feelings what could be broken in the future? If there is no deck using this cards and beeing broken, so it is not needed talking about bannings
The London Mulligan significantly boosts these "all in" decks. Especially the all in Druid combo list would probably be tier 1
Not saying I would immediately agree but when discussing the London Mulligan I can definitely see a future where those cards eventually have to go
Matt Nass and LSV did a take on unban opinions for SFM, Twin, GSZ, Chrome Mox, and the artifact lands. Regardless of any other take, it still amazes me that people think
SFM would warp the format, even to homogenize the fair decks.
Matt Nass had some hot takes. Chrome Mox and Artifact lands are okay, but Stoneforge Mystic is too efficient? Jesus. I mean, if you just care about efficiency, isn't Young Pyromancer more efficient?
I imagine Goyf would be played along with SFM. It would definitely leave Jund and Rock behind, but most often it's usually only one major GBx deck and two little ones.
I am for a Stoneforge unban, simply because I think the power level is lower compared to a good 70% of things we see in the current Modern.
That said, Stoneforge vs Tarmogoyf isn't an argument. They say, CORRECTLY, that Stoneforge + Batterskull in the mid-late game is a powerhouse. Which is true, when you have lots of mana to invest. Tarmogoyf stays as a lone one-time creature that dies from everything. Stoneforge, in the mid-late, simply isn't.
Splinter Twin is totally safe. I don't even think is that good anymore, given the rise of Shadow decks, Humans, Spirits... the actual Tempo which weren't in the format when Twin was a thing. Control always had a good match-up against Twin, and Combo/Burn were mostly a coinflip. It may help fighting big-mana strategies, such as Tron and Titan.
Being unbeatable in the late game feels like a weird statement to a control player, it's literally the goal of the deck to create an insurmountable advantage.
I'm not sure I can take anyone saying SFM being too powerful seriously. JTMS and Teferi also lock up a game very well if you're both late game top decking - and they are fine.
kolaghan's command completely craps on turns 1-3 of any SFM deck trying to play an early batterskull and GDS/mardu pyromancer already run the card.
Decks like arclight, dredge, elves, storm, and tron can just straight up ignore SFM the vast majority of the time.
100% disagree. I think the card is fine and if we are scared of this level of interaction then the landscape is going to look weird going forward.
I can't say I agree with the GSZ assessment. I don't see a T1 ramp spell being that terrible in modern, even if it does turn into a finisher or silver bullet after t3. I can't fetch dryad arbor T1 but hollow one can drop 1+ 4/4s? Okay...
The legality of Jitte and Brainstorm make a big difference in the power level of SFM is in Legacy vs Modern.
Also, there are quite a few cards legal in BOTH formats that can do a job on a stoneforge package.
Pithing Needle for example is a multi-purpose card that any deck can use to stop both SFM herself or equipment. Phyrexian revoker is another. These cards simply don't see play in Modern because there aren't many strong activated abilities around. They're ready made answers for SFM.
I don't see how anyone can buy the notion that SFM + Skull is some sort of powerhouse inevitability engine when a pithing needle just stops it from happening.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
The legality of Jitte and Brainstorm make a big difference in the power level of SFM is in Legacy vs Modern.
Also, there are quite a few cards legal in BOTH formats that can do a job on a stoneforge package.
Pithing Needle for example is a multi-purpose card that any deck can use to stop both SFM herself or equipment. Phyrexian revoker is another. These cards simply don't see play in Modern because there aren't many strong activated abilities around. They're ready made answers for SFM.
I don't see how anyone can buy the notion that SFM + Skull is some sort of powerhouse inevitability engine when a pithing needle just stops it from happening.
Just an irrational fear based on other formats.
Jace is amazing in Vintage and Legacy.
Jace is borderline 'ok' in Modern.
Twin is ban worthy (apparently) in Modern.
Twin is unplayable in Vintage and Legacy.
SFM is good in Legacy.
SFM would be oppressive and warping in Modern?
They talk about: Splinter Twin: They say it's the safest unbanning of them all and it would improve the format. LSV is quite confident it can come back, because it's a 10 cards package(+2 mites), and because it's highly interactable and disruptable(they mention dismember and other spot removals), thus it would mean there is another blue deck and make the field more diverse. Matt Nass is also confident about Twin, but says there could be some risks.
This line of reasoning sounds strikingly familiar! Wholeheartedly agree.
Seems like WOTC is trying to satisfy some of the unban arguements by printing weaker versions, example prime speaker vannifar and finale of devastation. Now they are even doing direct to modern cards so they are clearly working on fixing the modern format. They could easily unban twin or print a new weaker version in MH, same for SFM.
They talk about: Splinter Twin: They say it's the safest unbanning of them all and it would improve the format. LSV is quite confident it can come back, because it's a 10 cards package(+2 mites), and because it's highly interactable and disruptable(they mention dismember and other spot removals), thus it would mean there is another blue deck and make the field more diverse. Matt Nass is also confident about Twin, but says there could be some risks.
This line of reasoning sounds strikingly familiar! Wholeheartedly agree.
This is actually interesting to consider, because in the past I recall a few people insisting that the twin package just slots into all blue decks with minimal deck-building costs. LSV argues that the deck-building cost is high enough through a 10 card commitment (6 tappers + 4 twin) and the need for double red mana in twin's cost requires real considerations for the mana base that come with a cost. I think there is a valid case to be made that the twin package has reasonable deck building constraints and would not kill the diversity that exists among blue decks right now. (which was the stated reason for banning right?)
I also think a strong point that was missed in the video is the presence of death's shadow decks in the modern meta. This deck had not been discovered when twin was last legal, and my opinion is that shadow would have an extremely high win percentage against twin. It has all the right kinds of disruption with discard and removal and it can clock twin quickly with threats that are immune to bolt and most red removal.
Based on the current state of the modern meta-game now could finally be the right time to bring back twin. Going back to the diversity consideration, izzet phoenix is a tier one U/R deck with a serious meta share. If twin is able to steal some of the meta-game percentage from izzet phoenix we could even say that unbanning twin would improve diversity among blue decks right?!
They talk about: Splinter Twin: They say it's the safest unbanning of them all and it would improve the format. LSV is quite confident it can come back, because it's a 10 cards package(+2 mites), and because it's highly interactable and disruptable(they mention dismember and other spot removals), thus it would mean there is another blue deck and make the field more diverse. Matt Nass is also confident about Twin, but says there could be some risks.
This line of reasoning sounds strikingly familiar! Wholeheartedly agree.
This is actually interesting to consider, because in the past I recall a few people insisting that the twin package just slots into all blue decks with minimal deck-building costs. LSV argues that the deck-building cost is high enough through a 10 card commitment (6 tappers + 4 twin) and the need for double red mana in twin's cost requires real considerations for the mana base that come with a cost. I think there is a valid case to be made that the twin package has reasonable deck building constraints and would not kill the diversity that exists among blue decks right now. (which was the stated reason for banning right?)
I also think a strong point that was missed in the video is the presence of death's shadow decks in the modern meta. This deck had not been discovered when twin was last legal, and my opinion is that shadow would have an extremely high win percentage against twin. It has all the right kinds of disruption with discard and removal and it can clock twin quickly with threats that are immune to bolt and most red removal.
Based on the current state of the modern meta-game now could finally be the right time to bring back twin. Going back to the diversity consideration, izzet phoenix is a tier one U/R deck with a serious meta share. If twin is able to steal some of the meta-game percentage from izzet phoenix we could even say that unbanning twin would improve diversity among blue decks right?!
There is a certain percentage (and I doubt it's insignificant) of the current Phoenix player pool that is simply on whatever the best deck is at the moment. These players came from pod/twin, eventually migrating to GDS/Hollow one/Phoenix. If twin isn't as powerful as Phoenix in an open meta like GPs, then I doubt it would move the needle much. Betting a significant cost (ticket, room and food) on a deck that isn't a top performer is a risk a lot of us aren't willing to take.
The issue stems from what if that isn't the case and twin is more consistent/safer than Phoenix in an open meta? You've just created upheaval and everyone just ports back over to the tried and true.
An interesting consideration imho is how different the decks stack up to hate/ interaction. Phoenix fights through removal super well and can even handle some amount of discard AND exile hate. Twin can line up poorly against discard and removal heavy decks. They require different tools, and that could be its saving grace in time? Truth is storm, ur Phoenix, or twin could be a meta call for UR players at any given time where you're forced to interact with the yard, a wide board, a combo, or the stack at any given time.
I could see it leading to diversity if this is how this segment of players approached the format. They don't though, because modern is too wide open. So you jam and get reps with whatever has the best chance against the largest chunk of the meta. There will always be twin fans that migrate back to thto archetype because it's familiar. I also know there are spikes that will pick it up for 1-2 weeks and shelve it again if it doesn't get a base level of results.
The best argument I can see is that there would be an increase in diversity because you have 3 super strong T1-2 UR decks and it's a meta call for sideboards. Unfortunately that bleeds into one of moderns biggest issues in that answers so often line up so poorly to the questions. It's a catch 22...I don't know that releasing a known quantity that requires another set of answers is okay at this stage of the game.
All of this assumes that the wonderful modal spells we've been getting in the past few years doesn't continue. I can definately see a world where this isn't the case because modal spells give slower fair decks a chance to hang in the game for more than 1-2 turns.
Those who say "I can't take LSV and Matt Nass seriously" clearly haven't seen the video. Not that I agree with them necessarily, but they arguments are much more nuanced that "Free Twin, keep SFM banned". Just dismissing them like they said nothing is not really constructive.
You're definitely hearing wrong. They didn't say SFM would break the format. They said it would decrease diversity and homogenize fair decks to play SFM or most likely fade. Therefore it wouldn't benefit from unbanning her, because at the same time she isn't much of a clock to the fast, linear decks.
As for Twin---I really think Twin would be forced to go Grixis for fatal push, at least in this meta. Bolt is bad, and threats got bigger throughout the years.
Tron dethroning UR Phoenix for day 1 metagame share! 15% tron, 12 UR Phoenix, 10% Humans, 7% WU Control the most represented decks! Looks like a very healthy D1!
Another thing that stood out to me when Nass and LSV were talking is that Splinter Twin is prone to removal. So is Stoneforge Mystic in a way, at least in a fast format like Modern. Sure, it is not a 2 for 1. It is actually card advantage when Stoneforge Mystic is killed, but Batterskull on turn 5 at the earliest after removal on Mystic doesn't seem to be ultra powerful to me. Maybe it is to others? Maybe it is in a slow format? This is not the format of Modern that we play in nowadays.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Commenting on Chrome Mox and artifact lands (both are extremely powerful) before other much more innocuous stuff like Punishing Fire was quite surprising to me. I think Birthing Pod, Dig Through Time or Ponder would have been more interesting cards to discuss here IMO.
I liked their reasoning with Green Sun's Zenith and how it could shape Devoted Druid decks more towards Melira than to Vizier, I think it could enhance the deck without making it OP so that would be an interesting addition to the format. Not sure if Dryad Arbor off GSZ would still be an interaction that would give the deck too much consistency in the early game but I think it's worth testing it.
Anyway, I don't expect changes until Modern Horizons is released and the metagame has settled afterwards.
The London Mulligan significantly boosts these "all in" decks. Especially the all in Druid combo list would probably be tier 1
Not saying I would immediately agree but when discussing the London Mulligan I can definitely see a future where those cards eventually have to go
Matt Nass had some hot takes. Chrome Mox and Artifact lands are okay, but Stoneforge Mystic is too efficient? Jesus. I mean, if you just care about efficiency, isn't Young Pyromancer more efficient?
They said it is a very efficient threat and there would be very Little reason to play Tarmogoyf or Grim Flayer over Stoneforge Mystic.
Good example would be Legacy, where almost every Midrange deck is Wxx Stoneforge Mystic.
I think that argument is silly, there is always a best midrange creature. And I don't even think it's true all midrange and UWx decks would run SFM.
That said, Stoneforge vs Tarmogoyf isn't an argument. They say, CORRECTLY, that Stoneforge + Batterskull in the mid-late game is a powerhouse. Which is true, when you have lots of mana to invest. Tarmogoyf stays as a lone one-time creature that dies from everything. Stoneforge, in the mid-late, simply isn't.
Splinter Twin is totally safe. I don't even think is that good anymore, given the rise of Shadow decks, Humans, Spirits... the actual Tempo which weren't in the format when Twin was a thing. Control always had a good match-up against Twin, and Combo/Burn were mostly a coinflip. It may help fighting big-mana strategies, such as Tron and Titan.
"Reveal a Dragon"
kolaghan's command completely craps on turns 1-3 of any SFM deck trying to play an early batterskull and GDS/mardu pyromancer already run the card.
Decks like arclight, dredge, elves, storm, and tron can just straight up ignore SFM the vast majority of the time.
100% disagree. I think the card is fine and if we are scared of this level of interaction then the landscape is going to look weird going forward.
I can't say I agree with the GSZ assessment. I don't see a T1 ramp spell being that terrible in modern, even if it does turn into a finisher or silver bullet after t3. I can't fetch dryad arbor T1 but hollow one can drop 1+ 4/4s? Okay...
Spirits
They same way anyone knows anything. Talking to others?
Spirits
Also, there are quite a few cards legal in BOTH formats that can do a job on a stoneforge package.
Pithing Needle for example is a multi-purpose card that any deck can use to stop both SFM herself or equipment. Phyrexian revoker is another. These cards simply don't see play in Modern because there aren't many strong activated abilities around. They're ready made answers for SFM.
I don't see how anyone can buy the notion that SFM + Skull is some sort of powerhouse inevitability engine when a pithing needle just stops it from happening.
Just an irrational fear based on other formats.
Jace is amazing in Vintage and Legacy.
Jace is borderline 'ok' in Modern.
Twin is ban worthy (apparently) in Modern.
Twin is unplayable in Vintage and Legacy.
SFM is good in Legacy.
SFM would be oppressive and warping in Modern?
Not sure how that all works out.
Spirits
This line of reasoning sounds strikingly familiar!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This is actually interesting to consider, because in the past I recall a few people insisting that the twin package just slots into all blue decks with minimal deck-building costs. LSV argues that the deck-building cost is high enough through a 10 card commitment (6 tappers + 4 twin) and the need for double red mana in twin's cost requires real considerations for the mana base that come with a cost. I think there is a valid case to be made that the twin package has reasonable deck building constraints and would not kill the diversity that exists among blue decks right now. (which was the stated reason for banning right?)
I also think a strong point that was missed in the video is the presence of death's shadow decks in the modern meta. This deck had not been discovered when twin was last legal, and my opinion is that shadow would have an extremely high win percentage against twin. It has all the right kinds of disruption with discard and removal and it can clock twin quickly with threats that are immune to bolt and most red removal.
Based on the current state of the modern meta-game now could finally be the right time to bring back twin. Going back to the diversity consideration, izzet phoenix is a tier one U/R deck with a serious meta share. If twin is able to steal some of the meta-game percentage from izzet phoenix we could even say that unbanning twin would improve diversity among blue decks right?!
There is a certain percentage (and I doubt it's insignificant) of the current Phoenix player pool that is simply on whatever the best deck is at the moment. These players came from pod/twin, eventually migrating to GDS/Hollow one/Phoenix. If twin isn't as powerful as Phoenix in an open meta like GPs, then I doubt it would move the needle much. Betting a significant cost (ticket, room and food) on a deck that isn't a top performer is a risk a lot of us aren't willing to take.
The issue stems from what if that isn't the case and twin is more consistent/safer than Phoenix in an open meta? You've just created upheaval and everyone just ports back over to the tried and true.
An interesting consideration imho is how different the decks stack up to hate/ interaction. Phoenix fights through removal super well and can even handle some amount of discard AND exile hate. Twin can line up poorly against discard and removal heavy decks. They require different tools, and that could be its saving grace in time? Truth is storm, ur Phoenix, or twin could be a meta call for UR players at any given time where you're forced to interact with the yard, a wide board, a combo, or the stack at any given time.
I could see it leading to diversity if this is how this segment of players approached the format. They don't though, because modern is too wide open. So you jam and get reps with whatever has the best chance against the largest chunk of the meta. There will always be twin fans that migrate back to thto archetype because it's familiar. I also know there are spikes that will pick it up for 1-2 weeks and shelve it again if it doesn't get a base level of results.
The best argument I can see is that there would be an increase in diversity because you have 3 super strong T1-2 UR decks and it's a meta call for sideboards. Unfortunately that bleeds into one of moderns biggest issues in that answers so often line up so poorly to the questions. It's a catch 22...I don't know that releasing a known quantity that requires another set of answers is okay at this stage of the game.
All of this assumes that the wonderful modal spells we've been getting in the past few years doesn't continue. I can definately see a world where this isn't the case because modal spells give slower fair decks a chance to hang in the game for more than 1-2 turns.
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As for Twin---I really think Twin would be forced to go Grixis for fatal push, at least in this meta. Bolt is bad, and threats got bigger throughout the years.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past