With the new mulligan, WotC should unban every card in Modern, simultaneuosly ban every card with “opening hand” in its rules text, see what happens, and start banning cards as necessary.
because we are not in communism where you can be unfair versus some less people to be fair versus rest. What I mean? I allways buy decks which are tier 3. The reason is I will never get a deck which maybe banned in future. I own red prison, green stompy, 8 rack and I bought 2 years ago my eldrazi stompy... The only 1 all in foil, even Gemstone caverns Noone needed 1 year ago... My pet deck I love. Is it fair when people ban my deck now? After changing surprising rules? Is it my mistake? Could I new this like people buying 5 months ago whir prison? Is this OK?
As a theoretical standpoint, Communism is equally fair to everyone, since it (should) treats everybody the same. Compared to every other system, alone from the theoretical standpoint it is impossible. Sure, in practise we all (should) know, that this is not the case.
Even than, the point you are making is basically irrelevant. There is not a single deck, which is even remotely competitive, in Modern which is absolutely ban proof. New printings happen, unbans happen, meta shifts happen. Eye of Ugin was for the most parts in its existent in Modern borderline garbage and only saw play in Tron cause it was capable to find Wurmcoil Engines and sometimes Emmi. Than Battle of Zendrika happened, it got banned 6 months later. Totally innocent card at first, busted in the end.
Second Sunrise as another example, KCI too, heck, even something as garbage as Summer Bloom got banned, cause of one deck and the interaction it provided. For example, you are playing Red Prison, what happens if Chalice/Blood Moon suddenly gets to an oppressive status due to different printings/unbans? What happens if SSG suddenly enables broken things and thus warps the whole format? Nah, rather hold of a manual fix of an format and watch it burn (different Standard formats e.g. (Faeries e.g.)) and hope for the best instead of doing something.
Sure, many things are quite easy to judge after a longer time period, that is history. But the question at the moment, when you need to pull the trigger or not, that is always a lose-lose scenario.
Given this, there will always be bans, it is the fundamental flaw of the game.
To get to the initial point: What is better:
a) Have a fix for one of the fundamental flaws of the games (amount of none games due to RNG) while running into the risk of maybe (!) needing to correct the meta of one (!) format?
b) Do nothing and accept, that the best fix for your issue (which this is) may not work, cause you need to do corrections to some formats.
Wizards want to promote Arena, Wizards wants to promote MTG as the premier TCG Esport (instead of Heartstone). Making the formats, which see solely play on THE premier platform (Arena), overall more enjoyable for everyone is the biggest reason for this change (besides fixing a long standing issue of the game). While Modern has a massive player base, people play Modern cause they enjoy Modern AND want to play with an extended card pool without the financial investment of Legacy. Sure, a portion of players might get pissed when somebody gets banned, some others will celebrate, others will not care, but keep in mind, that those cards, which would get banned with that Mulligan Rule (if at all) would slow the format down, which is something many people wish, if you take a look at the best 2+ years.
Will I be sad/mad when I see MY pet deck get banned into oblivion (Griselbanned)? Sure, but that is a sacrifice at least I would be willing to take to bring Magic forward on a fundamental problem.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And just as a note: I honestly do not think, that the overall changes to the powerlevel of different decks will be that influential, the sum of the changes is the important aspect and nobody is capable to judge those.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
A stupid as it may sound: If they would need to ban 1-2 cards in Modern to make the game overall enjoyable for everybody else, why shouldn't they do it? That ruling is massive for limited (especially for limited) and also very impactful in Standard. Sure, from all formats Modern gets affected the hardest by this (dunno about Vintage) relative to it's powerlevel, so, if it is borderline okay in Modern (in a hypothetical standpoint), why not pull the trigger and in worst case ban 1-2 cards in Modern to increase the overall health of the game?
Greetings,
Kathal
FWIW, the London mulligan is hot garbage in Legacy. With many decks, it's akin to stacking your deck which is a thing we really don't need.
Oddly though, I don't mind it much in modern. But it does require you to have a good sideboard and a good plan behind it. Because without it, you'll actually get more non-games as you get hated out and can't deal with it.
I'm still indifferent, however, I've watched a variety of matches thus far and have seen some dirty ***** done using Gemstone Caverns, Serum Powder, & Pull From Eternity. Opening hands for Dredge and Tron are just filthy. I just hope WotC will take some time to scour over the data from MTGO before pulling the trigger officially; I hate seeing bans and banning a card/nerfing a deck b/c it becomes too consistent after WotC changing the rules would cause a proverbial *****storm.
A stupid as it may sound: If they would need to ban 1-2 cards in Modern to make the game overall enjoyable for everybody else, why shouldn't they do it? That ruling is massive for limited (especially for limited) and also very impactful in Standard. Sure, from all formats Modern gets affected the hardest by this (dunno about Vintage) relative to it's powerlevel, so, if it is borderline okay in Modern (in a hypothetical standpoint), why not pull the trigger and in worst case ban 1-2 cards in Modern to increase the overall health of the game?
Greetings,
Kathal
because we are not in communism where you can be unfair versus some less people to be fair versus rest. What I mean? I allways buy decks which are tier 3. The reason is I will never get a deck which maybe banned in future. I own red prison, green stompy, 8 rack and I bought 2 years ago my eldrazi stompy... The only 1 all in foil, even Gemstone caverns Noone needed 1 year ago... My pet deck I love. Is it fair when people ban my deck now? After changing surprising rules? Is it my mistake? Could I new this like people buying 5 months ago whir prison? Is this OK?
What's the problem? I think Eldrazi Stompy should be safe from bans. And the other decks you mentioned should be alright as well.
FWIW, the London mulligan is hot garbage in Legacy. With many decks, it's akin to stacking your deck which is a thing we really don't need.
Oddly though, I don't mind it much in modern. But it does require you to have a good sideboard and a good plan behind it. Because without it, you'll actually get more non-games as you get hated out and can't deal with it.
I cannot say that much about Legacy, since I was not able to play it much in the past few months. My gut feeling says, that it is not that influential (relative to it's powelevel) compared to Modern. Than again, I have no idea how it evolved over the past few months :/
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Side note, considering we get, what, 4-6 of these a year? I'm not a fan of the roman numeral numbering system. Maybe if it was 1 per year... but this is going to get real big real fast, and just look silly.
Is there a deadline when we will know whether the London Mulligan is being permanently implemented not? I am convinced that decision will have more effect on the future of modern than anything they could possibly print in Modern Horizons except for maybe Force of Will.
Is there a deadline when we will know whether the London Mulligan is being permanently implemented not? I am convinced that decision will have more effect on the future of modern than anything they could possibly print in Modern Horizons except for maybe Force of Will.
I'm interested to know about that as well.
Expecting some decks and cards to become much more stronger with this rule.
Any decks in particularly worrying you, Bearscape?
I do wonder if Shadow/Rock benefit much from this change. Seems like a huge boon to Tron, Dredge and Amulet more than any deck as of now in modern.
I like the London Mulligan, I think it benefits all decks by removing some non-games. However it benefits combo decks much more than fair decks, and from what I've seen from MTGO there's a bunch of stuff popping up like abusing Simian Spirit Guide and Gemstone Caverns to do something absurd on turn 1 or 2.
I think the London Mulligan is a great addition to any healthy mtg format. It breaking Modern says much more about current Modern than it does about the mulligan rule.
I do know on MTGO the London Mulligan made sure Griselbrand was able to go off on turn 1 each time I played against it after the opponent mulled to 4 and 5 respectively. I think the London mulligan has its pros and cons but as has been said it helps combo more then fair decks.
Side note, considering we get, what, 4-6 of these a year? I'm not a fan of the roman numeral numbering system. Maybe if it was 1 per year... but this is going to get real big real fast, and just look silly.
I have to agree, I don't understand how the host location and year was a bad naming system. This very forum had people always quoting back to Pro Tours such as Los Angeles '09, or Philadelphia '08. Then they changed the marketing to be named by set (we all know how disastrous that was) and now they think scratches on a prison wall is going to work?
Is there a deadline when we will know whether the London Mulligan is being permanently implemented not? I am convinced that decision will have more effect on the future of modern than anything they could possibly print in Modern Horizons except for maybe Force of Will.
They will need to evaluate it and than make a decision. IIRC, the Vancouver Mulligan rule got implemented 2 months later or sometime around that.
Greetings,
Kathal
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
SSG, Serum Powder, and Gemstone Caverns have all seemed like poor ideas for any balanced format, IMO. As someone who owns quite a few of them, I'd be happy to see them all leave the format. The numbers never backed up that kind of decision in the past, but seeing inconsistent super-speed decks wipe out a few players randomly in big tournaments always seemed like poor format health to me. If they're even more problematic now, that just makes me happy to push them out with other "free" broken stuff in Modern.
As a theoretical standpoint, Communism is equally fair to everyone, since it (should) treats everybody the same. Compared to every other system, alone from the theoretical standpoint it is impossible. Sure, in practise we all (should) know, that this is not the case.
Even than, the point you are making is basically irrelevant. There is not a single deck, which is even remotely competitive, in Modern which is absolutely ban proof. New printings happen, unbans happen, meta shifts happen. Eye of Ugin was for the most parts in its existent in Modern borderline garbage and only saw play in Tron cause it was capable to find Wurmcoil Engines and sometimes Emmi. Than Battle of Zendrika happened, it got banned 6 months later. Totally innocent card at first, busted in the end.
Second Sunrise as another example, KCI too, heck, even something as garbage as Summer Bloom got banned, cause of one deck and the interaction it provided. For example, you are playing Red Prison, what happens if Chalice/Blood Moon suddenly gets to an oppressive status due to different printings/unbans? What happens if SSG suddenly enables broken things and thus warps the whole format? Nah, rather hold of a manual fix of an format and watch it burn (different Standard formats e.g. (Faeries e.g.)) and hope for the best instead of doing something.
Sure, many things are quite easy to judge after a longer time period, that is history. But the question at the moment, when you need to pull the trigger or not, that is always a lose-lose scenario.
Given this, there will always be bans, it is the fundamental flaw of the game.
To get to the initial point: What is better:
a) Have a fix for one of the fundamental flaws of the games (amount of none games due to RNG) while running into the risk of maybe (!) needing to correct the meta of one (!) format?
b) Do nothing and accept, that the best fix for your issue (which this is) may not work, cause you need to do corrections to some formats.
Wizards want to promote Arena, Wizards wants to promote MTG as the premier TCG Esport (instead of Heartstone). Making the formats, which see solely play on THE premier platform (Arena), overall more enjoyable for everyone is the biggest reason for this change (besides fixing a long standing issue of the game). While Modern has a massive player base, people play Modern cause they enjoy Modern AND want to play with an extended card pool without the financial investment of Legacy. Sure, a portion of players might get pissed when somebody gets banned, some others will celebrate, others will not care, but keep in mind, that those cards, which would get banned with that Mulligan Rule (if at all) would slow the format down, which is something many people wish, if you take a look at the best 2+ years.
Will I be sad/mad when I see MY pet deck get banned into oblivion (Griselbanned)? Sure, but that is a sacrifice at least I would be willing to take to bring Magic forward on a fundamental problem.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And just as a note: I honestly do not think, that the overall changes to the powerlevel of different decks will be that influential, the sum of the changes is the important aspect and nobody is capable to judge those.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
FWIW, the London mulligan is hot garbage in Legacy. With many decks, it's akin to stacking your deck which is a thing we really don't need.
Oddly though, I don't mind it much in modern. But it does require you to have a good sideboard and a good plan behind it. Because without it, you'll actually get more non-games as you get hated out and can't deal with it.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
What's the problem? I think Eldrazi Stompy should be safe from bans. And the other decks you mentioned should be alright as well.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
3x Dredge
1x Izzet Phoenix
1x Bant Spirits
1x Rock
1x Esper Control
1x Hardened Scales Affinity
If anyone is interested here's the video coverege (top 8 is in progress). It's in japanese but still: https://www.twitch.tv/mtgjp
Edit: it looks like GBx list is Rock not Jund.
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Ah, I see.. so you were reacting to that.
Well, if faithless looting does get banned.. then so be it. Can sell the lands of my Mardu Pyro, and will just use BG midrange for FNM.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
6 of 8 Aggro
4 of 8 Faithless
2 of 8 Reactive
1 of 8 Phoenix
Big shrugs I guess. Normally we get some weird stuff out of Japan.
Spirits
Not too surprising. We have 3 Pox/Rack players locally, and it rips Phoenix to shreds. Great meta call.
In other news, eBay has 8% cashback right now. Might pick up a Horizons box. it doesn't feel too bad at $180ish.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Ah, bummer it's a targeted offer; thought I'd go and do the same.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I do wonder if Shadow/Rock benefit much from this change. Seems like a huge boon to Tron, Dredge and Amulet more than any deck as of now in modern.
I'm interested to know about that as well.
Expecting some decks and cards to become much more stronger with this rule.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I like the London Mulligan, I think it benefits all decks by removing some non-games. However it benefits combo decks much more than fair decks, and from what I've seen from MTGO there's a bunch of stuff popping up like abusing Simian Spirit Guide and Gemstone Caverns to do something absurd on turn 1 or 2.
I think the London Mulligan is a great addition to any healthy mtg format. It breaking Modern says much more about current Modern than it does about the mulligan rule.
I have to agree, I don't understand how the host location and year was a bad naming system. This very forum had people always quoting back to Pro Tours such as Los Angeles '09, or Philadelphia '08. Then they changed the marketing to be named by set (we all know how disastrous that was) and now they think scratches on a prison wall is going to work?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Odds of any 4-of in opening hand after each mulligan...
Opening 7: 39.9%
Mull to 6: 44.2%
Mull to 5: 49.6%
Mull to 4: 56.3%
So you get some pretty good jumps.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate