Guys, my point was that people need to stop using the term "Fair". Use "Interactive" or "Uninteractive," because that's what you're all actually discussing.
Phoenix is Fair in that it has to spend plenty of time durdling, casting spells, maybe removing a few things here or there, and plays out a few threats like Thing or Crackling Drake that are easy to answer, but can take over a game if ignored. Can Phoenix put out a few free dudes pretty fast and pressure a life total? Sure, but Jund gets 2-for-1s for free any time it casts BBE, possibly even more if they hit Lili or something really nuts. Terminus is insane, despite being in a Fair deck. The difference is that Jund and U/W are highly interactive, while Phoenix is not.
With modern horizons comming, I hope we have some answers for the looting decks (that just got busted with ravnica, before there was no problem) instead of a ban. If they ban the looting, which was not a problem card before, we loose not just dredge and phoenix, but hollow one, griselbrand shoal and almost every grave strategy. And Twin, the problem was the auto win on turn 4, the phoenixes can be deal with. I hope for at least Containment Priest and Flusterstorm upcoming. i just want a format with good anwers and no banning paranoia every 3 months or so. I just love legacy for that. Stability and resources, and no banning paranoia.
From the ChannelFireball twitter (link). These numbers are pretty alarming unfortunately. Combining with how the SCG Open looked (don't know numbers) Phoenix right now shows really high performance.
I'm worried about these numbers as well. Hopefully Wizards will do something about it, let it be something from Modern Horizons or bans if nothing else helps.
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My decks:
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I'm worried about these numbers as well. Hopefully Wizards will do something about it, let it be something from Modern Horizons or bans if nothing else helps.
I think the deck isn't old enough yet to warrant action. Eldrazi was much more warping and did so much quicker - which is why it ended up eating its ban. The numbers are alarming considering it's so young, but the decks that can perform well against phoenix don't have the tools available for a wide open field like modern. It's hard to dedicate sideboard slots to a match when you are trying to shore up every other match. The fact that the decks like Phoenix and Dredge can see and interact with such a significant portion of their library so quickly is part of the problem imo. I watched phoenix vs dredge on the Open twitch and by turn 3 both decks had seen a significant portion of their deck. Draw in other decks is just lacking imo.
Looting has to eat ban as fast as possible. Looting decks are too consistent and unbalanced.
It sucks to wait another year after KCI ban to see this looting metagaming raping everything else. And yes, your Containment priests and etc. will not help against T2 2-4 phoenixes in face.
Why looting and not others? As someone mentioned before - Phoenix itself is quite balanced without cheap enablers. You can see that in standard. This ban will also help not to kill all theese decks, only slow them down enough. And with killing options for super fast kills from theese decks - control decks will also get back to live and be competitive with their unbalanced Terminus. (lul)
Enough of this madness, it's time to stop looting decks. It's almost half a year when Phoenix decks showing consistent good results.
Modern sucks as it now.
From the ChannelFireball twitter (link). These numbers are pretty alarming unfortunately. Combining with how the SCG Open looked (don't know numbers) Phoenix right now shows really high performance.
This will be addressed by WOTC with a banning or special printings to curb this deck, or both. With twin they first printed hate cards like rending volly and when that didn't help they banned twin. With eldrazi and birthing pod they went strait to banning eye of ugin and pod itself, even though those were very different circumstances from each other. I see probe and KCI in a different category from what we see here and are not very good comparisons. IMO the closest direct comparison is twin or eldrazi. This looks worse than twin did but not as bad as eldrazi winter.
Looking at history a faithless looting ban looks less likely than a phoenix, thing in the ice or manamorphose ban. They try to tailor the banning to the specific offender and not affect a wide swath of decks. There is a long history of examples for this including BBE, eye, twin, pod, KCI, GGT, summer bloom and on and on. However, probe is an example of a wider ranging ban that hit multiple offending decks. They may end up banning faithless looting, but due to how many decks that would effect I expect something different to be tried first.
I get the impression that when people say that they hate the looting decks, they mostly mean Phoenix variants and then remember some non-oppressive archetype they don't like that utilizes it and throw it under the bus too.
I very much doubt looting would be ban-worthy without Phoenix or at least if the latter was legendary, which makes me think that the offender is actually Phoenix here.
Not that I hate Phoenix specifically, but do we beat the drum for Looting now?
How about now?
How about now?
I'll be interested in the top 8. If there's any less than 3 Phoenix there, I'll be surprised. I bet if a ban happens in relation to this, it's Phoenix that is forced to take a seat. They'll save Looting because it hits too many decks.
Not that I hate Phoenix specifically, but do we beat the drum for Looting now?
How about now?
How about now?
I'll be interested in the top 8. If there's any less than 3 Phoenix there, I'll be surprised. I bet if a ban happens in relation to this, it's Phoenix that is forced to take a seat. They'll save Looting because it hits too many decks.
Dredge has also been talked about about as a reason to ban looting, but it doesn't appear to be warping the format like Phoenix. Have to keep an eye on Dredge after Phoenix eats a ban.
Wizards needs to stop printing creatures that come back from the graveyard for free. That never ends well when Faithless Looting is in the format. It gives those decks too much speed and resilience - speed because, well, they cost 0 mana and you can have multiples of them in your graveyard by turn 2, resilience because they go back into the graveyard when killed and you just have to jump through some hoops to reanimate them again.
Bloodghast has been a component of at least three competitive decks throughout Modern's history (one of which had to be banned - they chose not to ban Bloodghast from that deck, and were duly rewarded when Dredge made two T8s at the very next GP, won another one and a half years later, and continues to be a force even today. Well done ). Now Phoenix is tearing up the format, and it shares the same characteristics that make Bloodghast good.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
Good news for Phoenix players. Only 2 in the top 8 and overshadowed by Dredge. These decks are obviously totally fine and not a problem.
Seriously. Excuses about players not adapting to the format simply cannot be made anymore. Graveyard decks have been dominating for a good few months now. Nobody is skimping on GY hate anymore, so much so that Surgical Extraction is ridiculously expensive.
Don't wanna hear anymore crap about players not being willing to adapt. At this point its clearly a power-level problem.
Edit: Here are the top 8 from the prev GP for comparison
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
From the ChannelFireball twitter (link). These numbers are pretty alarming unfortunately. Combining with how the SCG Open looked (don't know numbers) Phoenix right now shows really high performance.
Please don't call anyone a toxic twin player for pointing out there is no twin data that looks like this. I agree this is bigger than twin was, by a good margin.
Good news for Phoenix players. Only 2 in the top 8 and overshadowed by Dredge. These decks are obviously totally fine and not a problem.
Seriously. Excuses about players not adapting to the format simply cannot be made anymore. Graveyard decks have been dominating for a good few months now. Nobody is skimping on GY hate anymore, so much so that Surgical Extraction is ridiculously expensive.
Don't wanna hear anymore crap about players not being willing to adapt. At this point its clearly a power-level problem.
Edit: Here are the top 8 from the prev GP for comparison
Wow... Phoenix only got 2 copies in? I'm in shock! It's okay though because the real culprit brought Dredge with it.
I've had it in the back of my head that Looting at it's worst is "replace your worst 2" and at it's best is "draw 4". If it's putting up these kind of numbers at tournaments then it probably leans towards "draw 4" more than the other (with "draw 3, pitch 1" being the middle). That's just head and shoulders above Opt and Serum Visions.
Bilbao has a horrible T8, made even more horrible by the fact that European GP are typically more interactive and control-focused than American ones. Unfortunately, as I and others have said, it's just so easy to gravitate towards the high-ceiling, low-floor, cantrips-heavy, low-variance, proactive with reactive element style of Phoenix. Its matchup spectrum appears mostly in the 50-50+ range per CFB articles and its overall MWP is respectable at 53-54%. It's also an easy jump from other formats and it's a natural choice for spikier players. Due to these factors, the MC is probably going to be overrun with this deck.
Wizards will likely take action on May 20 at the next scheduled update IF the LA and Bilbao trends continue. That said, there are still 3 Modern GP between now and the MC, so there is time for format change to occur. It's hard to tell how much of the current Looting dominance is real performance vs. an echo chamber effect of online communities endlessly meming the same narratives about Modern decks. We went through a 2018 period of Stirrings dominance that eventually died down, so we really need to wait until May to get a better picture. That said, in the short term, 2019 Looting does appear to be overpefroming even Stirrings at its 2018 height.
If nothing changes between now and early May (the MC is the last weekend of April), and if a ban happens, the obvious target would be Looting itself. This is a card that R&D members admitted in a recent video was a topic of conversation. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but the LA and Bilbao pattern is ugly.
Revival or Consecrate cost would be fine and mostly in-pie for both effects. Pushed for Standard but appropriate for MH or a similar product.
Phoenix is Fair in that it has to spend plenty of time durdling, casting spells, maybe removing a few things here or there, and plays out a few threats like Thing or Crackling Drake that are easy to answer, but can take over a game if ignored. Can Phoenix put out a few free dudes pretty fast and pressure a life total? Sure, but Jund gets 2-for-1s for free any time it casts BBE, possibly even more if they hit Lili or something really nuts. Terminus is insane, despite being in a Fair deck. The difference is that Jund and U/W are highly interactive, while Phoenix is not.
From the ChannelFireball twitter (link). These numbers are pretty alarming unfortunately. Combining with how the SCG Open looked (don't know numbers) Phoenix right now shows really high performance.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
But we'll still have to see how it converts into top 32 before making any conclusions.
I think the deck isn't old enough yet to warrant action. Eldrazi was much more warping and did so much quicker - which is why it ended up eating its ban. The numbers are alarming considering it's so young, but the decks that can perform well against phoenix don't have the tools available for a wide open field like modern. It's hard to dedicate sideboard slots to a match when you are trying to shore up every other match. The fact that the decks like Phoenix and Dredge can see and interact with such a significant portion of their library so quickly is part of the problem imo. I watched phoenix vs dredge on the Open twitch and by turn 3 both decks had seen a significant portion of their deck. Draw in other decks is just lacking imo.
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
It sucks to wait another year after KCI ban to see this looting metagaming raping everything else. And yes, your Containment priests and etc. will not help against T2 2-4 phoenixes in face.
Why looting and not others? As someone mentioned before - Phoenix itself is quite balanced without cheap enablers. You can see that in standard. This ban will also help not to kill all theese decks, only slow them down enough. And with killing options for super fast kills from theese decks - control decks will also get back to live and be competitive with their unbalanced Terminus. (lul)
Enough of this madness, it's time to stop looting decks. It's almost half a year when Phoenix decks showing consistent good results.
Modern sucks as it now.
This will be addressed by WOTC with a banning or special printings to curb this deck, or both. With twin they first printed hate cards like rending volly and when that didn't help they banned twin. With eldrazi and birthing pod they went strait to banning eye of ugin and pod itself, even though those were very different circumstances from each other. I see probe and KCI in a different category from what we see here and are not very good comparisons. IMO the closest direct comparison is twin or eldrazi. This looks worse than twin did but not as bad as eldrazi winter.
Looking at history a faithless looting ban looks less likely than a phoenix, thing in the ice or manamorphose ban. They try to tailor the banning to the specific offender and not affect a wide swath of decks. There is a long history of examples for this including BBE, eye, twin, pod, KCI, GGT, summer bloom and on and on. However, probe is an example of a wider ranging ban that hit multiple offending decks. They may end up banning faithless looting, but due to how many decks that would effect I expect something different to be tried first.
I very much doubt looting would be ban-worthy without Phoenix or at least if the latter was legendary, which makes me think that the offender is actually Phoenix here.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
How about now?
How about now?
I'll be interested in the top 8. If there's any less than 3 Phoenix there, I'll be surprised. I bet if a ban happens in relation to this, it's Phoenix that is forced to take a seat. They'll save Looting because it hits too many decks.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Agreed. Hitting Phoenix is the more Surgical Extraction.
Dredge has also been talked about about as a reason to ban looting, but it doesn't appear to be warping the format like Phoenix. Have to keep an eye on Dredge after Phoenix eats a ban.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/b266be/top_8_gp_bilbao/
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Bloodghast has been a component of at least three competitive decks throughout Modern's history (one of which had to be banned - they chose not to ban Bloodghast from that deck, and were duly rewarded when Dredge made two T8s at the very next GP, won another one and a half years later, and continues to be a force even today. Well done ). Now Phoenix is tearing up the format, and it shares the same characteristics that make Bloodghast good.
History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Seriously. Excuses about players not adapting to the format simply cannot be made anymore. Graveyard decks have been dominating for a good few months now. Nobody is skimping on GY hate anymore, so much so that Surgical Extraction is ridiculously expensive.
Don't wanna hear anymore crap about players not being willing to adapt. At this point its clearly a power-level problem.
Edit: Here are the top 8 from the prev GP for comparison
Titanshift
Dredge x2
Izzet Phoenix x2
Harden Scales x2
Grixis Shadow
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Toxic twin players derailing the thread with their agenda.
Modern is the best it's ever been.
edit: /s if that wasn't obvious.
Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Please don't call anyone a toxic twin player for pointing out there is no twin data that looks like this. I agree this is bigger than twin was, by a good margin.
I've had it in the back of my head that Looting at it's worst is "replace your worst 2" and at it's best is "draw 4". If it's putting up these kind of numbers at tournaments then it probably leans towards "draw 4" more than the other (with "draw 3, pitch 1" being the middle). That's just head and shoulders above Opt and Serum Visions.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Wizards will likely take action on May 20 at the next scheduled update IF the LA and Bilbao trends continue. That said, there are still 3 Modern GP between now and the MC, so there is time for format change to occur. It's hard to tell how much of the current Looting dominance is real performance vs. an echo chamber effect of online communities endlessly meming the same narratives about Modern decks. We went through a 2018 period of Stirrings dominance that eventually died down, so we really need to wait until May to get a better picture. That said, in the short term, 2019 Looting does appear to be overpefroming even Stirrings at its 2018 height.
If nothing changes between now and early May (the MC is the last weekend of April), and if a ban happens, the obvious target would be Looting itself. This is a card that R&D members admitted in a recent video was a topic of conversation. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but the LA and Bilbao pattern is ugly.
Just like how they did with banning KCI instead of the opal.
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