well as i said in the previous thread. im disappointed this was their course of action. im glad for the thorough explanation and everything, i mean its almost like they copied and pasted the reasons right out of this forum or reddit. it was so spot on in fact, that it makes me suspect that they didnt or dont have as much data as we give them credit. if they are going to cite certain metrics, why not say how well kci was actually doing?
that said, it speaks to me that they are fine staying reactionary and conservative. which is the opposite and contrary to the unbans and optimism they displayed at the start of last year. so now we have people out of a deck, and everyone else just waiting to see what card or deck slips up next. great
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Dude, kci was rightfully banned. The deck was not good to have around. It was fast, resilient, had an amazing sideboard game, a logistical nightmare, complicated rules, awful to watch on camera. It was a fine reactionary ban. It also had crazy gp results despite not being a huge chunk of the meta.
Modern does have a problem being too fast and linear. Its going to take years of good new cards if ever, to fix that.
Gsz and sfm does not just magically fix this. Preordain and ponder have possible negative consequences, and everyone wants to not have this thread dedicated to twin talk.
Or they bypass standard and bring things into modern. Thats all I see working.
Kci is rightfully banned, I can't see how anyone thinks otherwise
I have to say that Stirrings has restrictions on card colors, not types to make this conversation look sane.
Its not a relevant deck building restriction any more than CoCo or Azcanta have restrictions. Artifacts, Lands, Creatures, Spells and Planeswalkers. Stirrings can find those card types, based on a colourless restriction that is, based on its inclusion in multiple tier 1 archetypes, irrelevant.
Yes CoCo and Azcanta are good comparisons as restrictions and while Stirrings costs 1, Coco is a instant card advantage and Azcanta is huge card advantage. I agree with wizards the restriction is real, to make Stirrings work you need a green heavy (to enable t1-t2 Stirrings) and colorless deck at the same time. When they say restriction, I think they compare it something like Ponder which doesnt have restrictions at all.
Glad that Faithless Looting is safe, and not being mentioned in the article.. it's not even in WoTC radar for possible banning. ^___^
I was pretty scarred honestly that Faithless Looting was on the radar due to Dredge going quite well lately and the new spice that is Izzet Phoenix. Thankfully, Dredge may continue on!
Yeah it was a relief. Well, I think it's because Dredge and Phoenix have creatures as win cons.. and are easier to handle than KCI. So we escaped the eyes of the banhammer. It would have bombed my entire playgroup if looting got banned, because all of us have invested money on a faithless looting deck of some sort.
Glad that Faithless Looting is safe, and not being mentioned in the article.. it's not even in WoTC radar for possible banning. ^___^
I was pretty scarred honestly that Faithless Looting was on the radar due to Dredge going quite well lately and the new spice that is Izzet Phoenix. Thankfully, Dredge may continue on!
Yeah it was a relief. Well, I think it's because Dredge and Phoenix have creatures as win cons.. and are easier to handle than KCI. So we escaped the eyes of the banhammer. It would have bombed my entire playgroup if looting got banned, because all of us have invested money on a faithless looting deck of some sort.
Speaking of relief, I always knew manamorphose was safe. Honest. There was no panic at all.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
I have to say that Stirrings has restrictions on card colors, not types to make this conversation look sane.
Its not a relevant deck building restriction any more than CoCo or Azcanta have restrictions. Artifacts, Lands, Creatures, Spells and Planeswalkers. Stirrings can find those card types, based on a colourless restriction that is, based on its inclusion in multiple tier 1 archetypes, irrelevant.
Yes CoCo and Azcanta are good comparisons as restrictions and while Stirrings costs 1, Coco is a instant card advantage and Azcanta is huge card advantage. I agree with wizards the restriction is real, to make Stirrings work you need a green heavy (to enable t1-t2 Stirrings) and colorless deck at the same time. When they say restriction, I think they compare it something like Ponder which doesnt have restrictions at all.
Yeah, the spirit of why they consider it ok makes sense when you have a small format but in current Modern, the effect is too powerful since the cost isn't as big as it may seem, take a look at Hardened Scales for instance, the only cards that can't be picked with Stirrings are other Stirrings and Hardened Scales, everything else can be picked.
Now look at Tron, the only cards Stirrings doesn't find are other Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying.
Both of these decks could work fine without the card as it is not a combo piece or even required to their gameplan, it's basically making these decks so consistent since they can always find whatever they need if it's in the top5 cards for just G, if it dig 3 cards it might be ok but 5 is way too much.
I think Ponder and Preordain would be problematic (Storm and Phoenix decks would improve a lot and these cantrips would be automatic 4-ofs in any blue deck) so they should remain banned, I understand that Stirrings is a bit different but don't be fooled to think Stirrings is OK just because Ponder is better, it is too easy to fit Stirrings in powerful decks like the 2 I mentioned before to make them consistent and that's why I think Stirrings should be banned.
Oh wow, did they kill the wrong giant this time. Not for the first time, let it be said. In addition to the fact that some cards need to be unbanned. Again.
Speaking of relief, I always knew manamorphose was safe. Honest. There was no panic at all.
Yep, also not even mentioned in the article. Although it would bomb the guy who bought all my manamorphose, not me.. if the card got banned. And just my opinion, I think UR Storm is a great deck that has the right to exist in modern. It was nerfed enough with the probe ban, no need to get rid of morphose.
Glad that Faithless Looting is safe, and not being mentioned in the article.. it's not even in WoTC radar for possible banning. ^___^
I was pretty scarred honestly that Faithless Looting was on the radar due to Dredge going quite well lately and the new spice that is Izzet Phoenix. Thankfully, Dredge may continue on!
Yeah it was a relief. Well, I think it's because Dredge and Phoenix have creatures as win cons.. and are easier to handle than KCI. So we escaped the eyes of the banhammer. It would have bombed my entire playgroup if looting got banned, because all of us have invested money on a faithless looting deck of some sort.
Well WOTC does like their creature combat especially the tribal sort...Problem is Board Wipes are too slow. We need Board Wipes with alternate cost reduction like Terminus. Maybe something like if your opponent puts three or more non token creatures into play. This Board Wipes cost X less than 4.
Glad that Faithless Looting is safe, and not being mentioned in the article.. it's not even in WoTC radar for possible banning. ^___^
I was pretty scarred honestly that Faithless Looting was on the radar due to Dredge going quite well lately and the new spice that is Izzet Phoenix. Thankfully, Dredge may continue on!
Yeah it was a relief. Well, I think it's because Dredge and Phoenix have creatures as win cons.. and are easier to handle than KCI. So we escaped the eyes of the banhammer. It would have bombed my entire playgroup if looting got banned, because all of us have invested money on a faithless looting deck of some sort.
Well WOTC does like their creature combat especially the tribal sort...Problem is Board Wipes are too slow. We need Board Wipes with alternate cost reduction like Terminus. Maybe something like if your opponent puts three or more non token creatures into play. This Board Wipes cost X less than 4 where X is number of creatures above 2. Or something like an enchantment that says your opponents cannot cast creatures with CMC above the number of lands they control.
Speaking of relief, I always knew manamorphose was safe. Honest. There was no panic at all.
Yep, also not even mentioned in the article. Although it would bomb the guy who bought all my manamorphose, not me.. if the card got banned. And just my opinion, I think UR Storm is a great deck that has the right to exist in modern. It was nerfed enough with the probe ban, no need to get rid of morphose.
If I didn't need the damn things so much I'd be selling my Morphoses too. Well overdue a reprint when 4x Uncommons can = 1 JTMS or thereabouts.
Us storm players are starting to relax. It seems that most sensible players are starting to agree that the deck isn't oppressive, that it has it's place in the meta and needs skill to play well. We will always have that worry in the back of our minds, and we are one big tournament away from Sauron's eye looking at us again, but at least it can be interacted with on a number of lines in any colour the opponent is playing.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
I don't know all version of UR Storm, but the ones we have here in our meta are turn 3 decks if you let them goldfish.
However, the combo is easy enough to disrupt.. so it's not really that big of an issue.
Oh my, didn't know that manamorphose is a 20 dollar card now. That's insane for a common. Sold my playset for 35 dollars just about 3 months ago. Bought them for 25 cents each at SCG years ago, if I knew they would 20 dollars today, I could have bought hundreds of copies and made a living selling manamorphoses today.
so question for you all. if design produced a 1/1 body in blue for 1u that was basically preordain would it help the demand for accurate draw fixing? i think the cantrip utility creature is a risk but it is a risk that pays off safely compared to the fears of powering up izzet combo.
There are already creatures who does this and they do not see play.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
so question for you all. if design produced a 1/1 body in blue for 1u that was basically preordain would it help the demand for accurate draw fixing? i think the cantrip utility creature is a risk but it is a risk that pays off safely compared to the fears of powering up izzet combo.
There are already creatures who does this and they do not see play.
Greetings,
Kathal
It would have been good to give an example as it's not that obvious. I don't think there are that many, I can only recall Sea Gate Oracle, Tower Geist and Riverwise Augur
None of those cards is giving a Ponder or Preordain effect and they tend to cost more than 2 mana
Still, I think you are right that a 1/1 for 1U with Preordain ETB would probably be weak, maybe Ponder ETB could be worth including.
I mean, Discovery // Dispersal is basically a 2 mana Preordain (I think Surveil is better than Scry so that's a bit different) and still doesn't see Modern play because of how huge a difference it makes going from 1 to 2 mana
On the other hand, a 1/1 for U with Preordain ETB... I think that would see play, probably in some kind of build with mini reanimation effects like Renegade Rallier
Augur of Bolas and Glint-Nest Crane, which can only grab specific types of cards. Notably NOT lands (except Darksteel Citadel), meaning if you're stuck on 2 lands they don't dig you out of it.
Silvergill Adept, which does actually see play, albeit not in a very good deck
A 2-drop with literal Preordain (not "Preordain if you close one eye and squint") would 100% see play.
Dude, kci was rightfully banned. The deck was not good to have around. It was fast, resilient, had an amazing sideboard game, a logistical nightmare, complicated rules, awful to watch on camera. It was a fine reactionary ban. It also had crazy gp results despite not being a huge chunk of the meta.
Modern does have a problem being too fast and linear. Its going to take years of good new cards if ever, to fix that.
Gsz and sfm does not just magically fix this. Preordain and ponder have possible negative consequences, and everyone wants to not have this thread dedicated to twin talk.
Or they bypass standard and bring things into modern. Thats all I see working.
Kci is rightfully banned, I can't see how anyone thinks otherwise
you dont need to parrot their reasoning. i fully understand why the ban happened, and i didnt even like the deck personally. my disappointment was that they took a borderline case, and just hit it with a ban and nothing else. to top it off they literally provided no insight into the decks performance that wasnt gathered by community members here (ktkenshinx) and those on reddit. maybe their data said the same stuff, but without any further information its just as likely THEY used that community collected data as their own; there just isnt any way to tell one way or the other. do they even collect match data for gps? apparently they have game 1 win percentage data.
either way, you said it yourself, the deck wasnt a huge chunk of the meta. hell it was a reasonably small one, and id surmise its even smaller as you go down the competitive ladder. wizards even acknowledged how the decks performance was obfuscated because of the skill/knowledge required to navigate nonintuitive play patterns.
so great, the evil kci menace is gone. im sure the <5% of modern players who actually play to compete for GP top8s are breathing a sigh of relief. you say its gonna take a lot of steps to meaningfully shift modern, and im saying im disappointed they took one; and a small one at that. not only that but it damaged confidence in the format, because that is what borderline bans do.
edit: just to add something constructive to the discussion i think that kci's banning will cause a resurgence in humans. i wouldnt say that kci was suppressing humans, but it lost a lot of favor due to its inability to run potent white sideboard cards like stony. with that, and gds on the rise, i think it will be better positioned. also id rate humans better against phoenix than spirits since thalia freebooter and meddling mage do more to slow the deck down and it has more aggressive draws.
I do wonder if they could have instead errata'd KCI to say that the ability can only be used any time you could cast a sorcery. That would have killed the weird interaction that allows sac'ing two things which see each other's sacrifice and would allow responses to a sacrifice to be more effective.
Augur of Bolas and Glint-Nest Crane, which can only grab specific types of cards. Notably NOT lands (except Darksteel Citadel), meaning if you're stuck on 2 lands they don't dig you out of it.
Silvergill Adept, which does actually see play, albeit not in a very good deck
A 2-drop with literal Preordain (not "Preordain if you close one eye and squint") would 100% see play.
I do wonder if they could have instead errata'd KCI to say that the ability can only be used any time you could cast a sorcery. That would have killed the weird interaction that allows sac'ing two things which see each other's sacrifice and would allow responses to a sacrifice to be more effective.
I think that would have made KCI weaker enough.
Making functional errata as a means to Nerf cards should never be used in Magic. It's a core difference between it and Hearthstone that the cards you open do what they say they do, outside of rules-clarification updates. To make it so that the only people who can play a card are the ones that have read up on the most current version of that card's rules is insane, and I hope Magic never gets to that point.
I do wonder if they could have instead errata'd KCI to say that the ability can only be used any time you could cast a sorcery. That would have killed the weird interaction that allows sac'ing two things which see each other's sacrifice and would allow responses to a sacrifice to be more effective.
I think that would have made KCI weaker enough.
The problem with using errata for balance a la digital card games is that they can't update the "UI" in paper, which is a big part of why functional errata are so rare. Binary, cut-and-dry banlists are just so much more effective as well as easier to manage and track than all of the creative alternatives that get thrown around.
The funny thing in all this is that yes, the odds of you seeing KCI personally are tiny, yet people had bought in to the idea that you need massive hate.
Well you still do. You still 100% need GY and Artifact hate in your Main or Side, and KCI doesnt change a thing. tronix as usual has the right of it. We are just down a deck to play, and nothing really has changed here.
It enables more archetypal decks than probably any other card in the format between Combo (KCI previously, Amulet), Ramp (Tron), Aggro (Scales), Stompy (Eldrazi variants) and Prison (Lantern). It's promotion of archetypes is great. More decks is more better. Wizards has said so. The prevalence of Ancient Stirrings as it is right now today is perfectly acceptable as deemed by Wizards and people who are still insisting despite yesterday's write up that it is in some way offensive are blatantly wrong. It says in the first post of this thread that is not a place to air grievances, so can we please have a mod crackdown on all of those snide comments that assailed the last thread regarding this card?
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Well Im thinking that more efficient versions of those creatures, that actually replace themselves with the intended card solves the draw fixing for non-combo decks while also giving you a chump blocking body and doesnt get flashed back by snapcaster to be abused, so it could be safe design in modern that solves one of our issues
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
You are calling for a mod to crack down on comments against Stirrings? Is that correct?
I'll just leave this here.
"Bear in mind that this is based on the current state of the metagame, and that Ancient Stirrings and Mox Opal are not being given a free pass in perpetuity."
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UW Spirits
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that said, it speaks to me that they are fine staying reactionary and conservative. which is the opposite and contrary to the unbans and optimism they displayed at the start of last year. so now we have people out of a deck, and everyone else just waiting to see what card or deck slips up next. great
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Modern does have a problem being too fast and linear. Its going to take years of good new cards if ever, to fix that.
Gsz and sfm does not just magically fix this. Preordain and ponder have possible negative consequences, and everyone wants to not have this thread dedicated to twin talk.
Or they bypass standard and bring things into modern. Thats all I see working.
Kci is rightfully banned, I can't see how anyone thinks otherwise
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Yeah it was a relief. Well, I think it's because Dredge and Phoenix have creatures as win cons.. and are easier to handle than KCI. So we escaped the eyes of the banhammer. It would have bombed my entire playgroup if looting got banned, because all of us have invested money on a faithless looting deck of some sort.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Speaking of relief, I always knew manamorphose was safe. Honest. There was no panic at all.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Yeah, the spirit of why they consider it ok makes sense when you have a small format but in current Modern, the effect is too powerful since the cost isn't as big as it may seem, take a look at Hardened Scales for instance, the only cards that can't be picked with Stirrings are other Stirrings and Hardened Scales, everything else can be picked.
Now look at Tron, the only cards Stirrings doesn't find are other Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying.
Both of these decks could work fine without the card as it is not a combo piece or even required to their gameplan, it's basically making these decks so consistent since they can always find whatever they need if it's in the top5 cards for just G, if it dig 3 cards it might be ok but 5 is way too much.
I think Ponder and Preordain would be problematic (Storm and Phoenix decks would improve a lot and these cantrips would be automatic 4-ofs in any blue deck) so they should remain banned, I understand that Stirrings is a bit different but don't be fooled to think Stirrings is OK just because Ponder is better, it is too easy to fit Stirrings in powerful decks like the 2 I mentioned before to make them consistent and that's why I think Stirrings should be banned.
KCI? LOL
Yep, also not even mentioned in the article. Although it would bomb the guy who bought all my manamorphose, not me.. if the card got banned. And just my opinion, I think UR Storm is a great deck that has the right to exist in modern. It was nerfed enough with the probe ban, no need to get rid of morphose.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Well WOTC does like their creature combat especially the tribal sort...Problem is Board Wipes are too slow. We need Board Wipes with alternate cost reduction like Terminus. Maybe something like if your opponent puts three or more non token creatures into play. This Board Wipes cost X less than 4.
Well WOTC does like their creature combat especially the tribal sort...Problem is Board Wipes are too slow. We need Board Wipes with alternate cost reduction like Terminus. Maybe something like if your opponent puts three or more non token creatures into play. This Board Wipes cost X less than 4 where X is number of creatures above 2. Or something like an enchantment that says your opponents cannot cast creatures with CMC above the number of lands they control.
If I didn't need the damn things so much I'd be selling my Morphoses too. Well overdue a reprint when 4x Uncommons can = 1 JTMS or thereabouts.
Us storm players are starting to relax. It seems that most sensible players are starting to agree that the deck isn't oppressive, that it has it's place in the meta and needs skill to play well. We will always have that worry in the back of our minds, and we are one big tournament away from Sauron's eye looking at us again, but at least it can be interacted with on a number of lines in any colour the opponent is playing.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
However, the combo is easy enough to disrupt.. so it's not really that big of an issue.
Oh my, didn't know that manamorphose is a 20 dollar card now. That's insane for a common. Sold my playset for 35 dollars just about 3 months ago. Bought them for 25 cents each at SCG years ago, if I knew they would 20 dollars today, I could have bought hundreds of copies and made a living selling manamorphoses today.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
It would have been good to give an example as it's not that obvious. I don't think there are that many, I can only recall Sea Gate Oracle, Tower Geist and Riverwise Augur
None of those cards is giving a Ponder or Preordain effect and they tend to cost more than 2 mana
Still, I think you are right that a 1/1 for 1U with Preordain ETB would probably be weak, maybe Ponder ETB could be worth including.
I mean, Discovery // Dispersal is basically a 2 mana Preordain (I think Surveil is better than Scry so that's a bit different) and still doesn't see Modern play because of how huge a difference it makes going from 1 to 2 mana
On the other hand, a 1/1 for U with Preordain ETB... I think that would see play, probably in some kind of build with mini reanimation effects like Renegade Rallier
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
you dont need to parrot their reasoning. i fully understand why the ban happened, and i didnt even like the deck personally. my disappointment was that they took a borderline case, and just hit it with a ban and nothing else. to top it off they literally provided no insight into the decks performance that wasnt gathered by community members here (ktkenshinx) and those on reddit. maybe their data said the same stuff, but without any further information its just as likely THEY used that community collected data as their own; there just isnt any way to tell one way or the other. do they even collect match data for gps? apparently they have game 1 win percentage data.
either way, you said it yourself, the deck wasnt a huge chunk of the meta. hell it was a reasonably small one, and id surmise its even smaller as you go down the competitive ladder. wizards even acknowledged how the decks performance was obfuscated because of the skill/knowledge required to navigate nonintuitive play patterns.
so great, the evil kci menace is gone. im sure the <5% of modern players who actually play to compete for GP top8s are breathing a sigh of relief. you say its gonna take a lot of steps to meaningfully shift modern, and im saying im disappointed they took one; and a small one at that. not only that but it damaged confidence in the format, because that is what borderline bans do.
edit: just to add something constructive to the discussion i think that kci's banning will cause a resurgence in humans. i wouldnt say that kci was suppressing humans, but it lost a lot of favor due to its inability to run potent white sideboard cards like stony. with that, and gds on the rise, i think it will be better positioned. also id rate humans better against phoenix than spirits since thalia freebooter and meddling mage do more to slow the deck down and it has more aggressive draws.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I think that would have made KCI weaker enough.
In the same category as Augury Owl is Sage of Epityr.
Making functional errata as a means to Nerf cards should never be used in Magic. It's a core difference between it and Hearthstone that the cards you open do what they say they do, outside of rules-clarification updates. To make it so that the only people who can play a card are the ones that have read up on the most current version of that card's rules is insane, and I hope Magic never gets to that point.
The problem with using errata for balance a la digital card games is that they can't update the "UI" in paper, which is a big part of why functional errata are so rare. Binary, cut-and-dry banlists are just so much more effective as well as easier to manage and track than all of the creative alternatives that get thrown around.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Well you still do. You still 100% need GY and Artifact hate in your Main or Side, and KCI doesnt change a thing. tronix as usual has the right of it. We are just down a deck to play, and nothing really has changed here.
Spirits
It enables more archetypal decks than probably any other card in the format between Combo (KCI previously, Amulet), Ramp (Tron), Aggro (Scales), Stompy (Eldrazi variants) and Prison (Lantern). It's promotion of archetypes is great. More decks is more better. Wizards has said so. The prevalence of Ancient Stirrings as it is right now today is perfectly acceptable as deemed by Wizards and people who are still insisting despite yesterday's write up that it is in some way offensive are blatantly wrong. It says in the first post of this thread that is not a place to air grievances, so can we please have a mod crackdown on all of those snide comments that assailed the last thread regarding this card?
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I'll just leave this here.
"Bear in mind that this is based on the current state of the metagame, and that Ancient Stirrings and Mox Opal are not being given a free pass in perpetuity."
Spirits