Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
You know every fair white deck does play SFM in Legacy, whereas Delver is not played in every blue fair deck.
I'm personally hoping for a Dark Depths unban, because it's not even that strong compared to:
-)insert combo deck killing you on turn 3
-) would boost fair decks
-) we have more answers with Field of Ruin than in the past
Miracles doesn't play SFM. And again, SFM is way more powerful in Legacy than she is in Modern. Modern UW Miracles would not play her. The current build of Jeskai Control would not play her. In Modern, she would slot nicely into Death and Taxes, but that deck sucks so who cares about that. She would go into Abzan Midrange, which hasn't been playable in years. Beyond that, she would also spawn some new UWx tempo or midrange shell with cards like Lingering Souls, Spell Queller, and Geist. I personally would build a Jeskai tempo shell with her, centered around playing Geist and getting a Sword that lets Geist attack through blockers.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
You know every fair white deck does play SFM in Legacy, whereas Delver is not played in every blue fair deck.
I'm personally hoping for a Dark Depths unban, because it's not even that strong compared to:
-)insert combo deck killing you on turn 3
-) would boost fair decks
-) we have more answers with Field of Ruin than in the past
UW Miracles and Junk Nic Fit want to have a word with you. Only Maverick, Death and Taxes and Stoneblade play SFM.
Regarding the ban: Somewhat surprised about the KCI ban, expected something like Trawler instead. That that card was not even in consideration was also surprising. Otherwise, nice "in-depth" article to say it this way.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I personally would have preferred a Scrap Trawler ban. That only hits KCI, but allows the deck to continue to exist at a much lower power level instead of completely nuking it.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I personally would have preferred a Scrap Trawler ban. That only hits KCI, but allows the deck to continue to exist at a much lower power level instead of completely nuking it.
I understand this logic and would have been happy with either. That said, I also understand why Wizards just took the shot at the deck's biggest offender. The deck is so problematic on so many levels that only a full KCI ban properly prevents it from being a problem in the future. This way you don't have to risk any issues with Sai, Thopter Sword, Emrakul or whatever other engine pieces/payoffs break the deck in the future. True, a Trawler ban addresses some of the archaic rule issues Wizards pointed to, but only the nuclear options decisively addresses other issues like win rate and GP T8 conversion going into 2019. It does suck to have decks wiped out though, and I am sorry for KCI players who had cards, money, and time invested in this strategy. Thankfully, many of their staples will pivot into other viable top-tier strategies.
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
The problem with the tweet is that it shows a lack of understanding of how these top tier decks operate. UW and Jeskai Control do not have the option to run SFM etc., and to claim that UWx's success prohibits SFM from being considered for unbanning is either intentionally misleading to mask some other data that prohibits SFM, or spring woefully uninformed preconceptions of those decks.
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
The problem with the tweet is that it shows a lack of understanding of how these top tier decks operate. UW and Jeskai Control do not have the option to run SFM etc., and to claim that UWx's success prohibits SFM from being considered for unbanning is either intentionally misleading to mask some other data that prohibits SFM, or spring woefully uninformed preconceptions of those decks.
Nobody panic! Forsythe was laughably wrong about Sword in 2015 and indirectly admitted his mistake by unbanning Sword a few months later. It's great that he's even opening up lines of communication here and we need to keep constructively engaging him. Whether you agree or disagree with his assessment, make your constructive voice heard and keep this topic on the agenda!
These last 12 hours of Wizards communication is arguably some of the best we have had in the last 3 to 4 years.
If Wizards keeps these channels open and consistent, while most of the community strikes when they see wrong and promotes when they see good, we can finally come to terms on more issues than simple format health.
Well like I said. I can only shrug my shoulders at this announcement. I would have liked to see a Preordain and/or a Stoneforge Mystic unban but I can accept it and I can see where WotC is coming from. I think a lot people in here don't when it comes to SFM.
SFM is at its best in an UW/x shell. That was true in Standard, it's true in Legacy and there is no reason to assume that it wouldn't be so in Modern and that's the problem because results are results. UW/x based decks have performed very well over this year and the big three of them are obviously both Control decks in from of Jeskai and Azorius and then of course Spirits. The thing about them is they are all fair decks and they are actually pretty decent against other fair decks. Would SFM go into any these? Maybe not but it would certainly spawn another UW/x based deck that by its nature would probably be very good against other fair decks.
You would have Tribal Aggro, Control and the SFM deck which would probably be Midrange so what would be the problem? Well that's not the only way to look at it and color diversity has been shown to be a concern too and with SFM it might become a concern that if you want to play a fair deck UW/x is the only real way to go. I mean Death's Shadow decks and BG/x decks still exist and put up results but they don't have easy games against the UW decks and would rather face something else the entire day. SFM certainly wouldn't make that better.
Someone else said it already, but not a whole lot has actually changed in the last year-year and a half. We basically go back to that point, with ships-in-the-night combo/aggro decks fighting with Control hanging on by its fingernails to try to combat the speed of the format. Mid-range falls behind with nothing to really grind out, as I can't see Control getting a larger share of the meta. Death's Shadow probably continues to operate as the new aggro/mid-range option of choice, as we were seeing in recent months. We probably see Stony Silence usage drop, as KCI was the bogeyman, and newer Hardened Scales Affinity is more resilient to it, as well as being solidly Green and being able to run side Claims. Grave hate probably takes over Artifact hate as the necessity of sideboards, to hate out Dredge, Phoenix, and hamper DS decks, and I could see UW Control continuing to mainboard RIP at the cost of Snaps and less reliance on Azcanta.
If the problem with KCI was only power-level, banning Scrap Trawler would have been the solution, if there even was a problem to begin with. KCI was not only being the best performing deck of the last year at premier events, but it took very long time (even in the hands of expert players) and was not attractive in live coverage (as if official Magic coverage was any appealing to begin with, at least when there is game action it shouldn't be dreadful). I just hope KCI players don't start playing Lantern, because that's actually a miserable deck no matter what you play.
Regarding Forsythe opinion on Stoneforge Mystic, his reasoning for not unbanning it is as silly as if they banned it in Legacy to stop Miracles.
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Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
SFM is at its best in an UW/x shell. That was true in Standard, it's true in Legacy and there is no reason to assume that it wouldn't be so in Modern and that's the problem because results are results.
Not to pick any nits but the most successful long term deck using SFM has been mono white Legacy D&T without any doubt at all. UW Stoneblade has been in and out numerous times and not nearly as consistently powerful. You could argue successfully that Cawblade was more dominant but I'd say that's more an issue with putting a ton of eternal playable UW cards in a standard format.
I can see the argument for blue being the best SFM vehicle in Modern but lacking Force of Will pushes you pretty hard down the black path if you want to play tapout midrange.
The combination of Assassin's Trophy and Path to Exile makes me think it's just as likely Abzan is the best SFM deck as Esper or UW. Especially when we think about the high likelihood of it being a thoughtseize deck.
Too many variables to figure out for sure though. I'm not even sure it'd wind up being viable, though Stoneforge for Batterskull does solve a lot of problems current aggro decks present.
If the problem with KCI was only power-level, banning Scrap Trawler would have been the solution, if there even was a problem to begin with. KCI was not only being the best performing deck of the last year at premier events, but it took very long time (even in the hands of expert players) and was not attractive in live coverage (as if official Magic coverage was any appealing to begin with, at least when there is game action it shouldn't be dreadful). I just hope KCI players don't start playing Lantern, because that's actually a miserable deck no matter what you play.
Regarding Forsythe opinion on Stoneforge Mystic, his reasoning for not unbanning it is as silly as if they banned it in Legacy to stop Miracles.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Eggs? KCI was not really that slow of a deck, especially in experienced hands.
SFM is at its best in an UW/x shell. That was true in Standard, it's true in Legacy and there is no reason to assume that it wouldn't be so in Modern and that's the problem because results are results.
Not to pick any nits but the most successful long term deck using SFM has been mono white Legacy D&T without any doubt at all. UW Stoneblade has been in and out numerous times and not nearly as consistently powerful. You could argue successfully that Cawblade was more dominant but I'd say that's more an issue with putting a ton of eternal playable UW cards in a standard format.
I can see the argument for blue being the best SFM vehicle in Modern but lacking Force of Will pushes you pretty hard down the black path if you want to play tapout midrange.
The combination of Assassin's Trophy and Path to Exile makes me think it's just as likely Abzan is the best SFM deck as Esper or UW. Especially when we think about the high likelihood of it being a thoughtseize deck.
Too many variables to figure out for sure though. I'm not even sure it'd wind up being viable, though Stoneforge for Batterskull does solve a lot of problems current aggro decks present.
Well by forgoing Blue you are forgoing stuff like countermagic, Snapcaster Mage, Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. One of the reasons GDS has become the defacto Death's Shadow deck is because of its access to countermagic and the fact that Snapcaster is so good in grindy games and that's something that non-Blue decks have trouble dealing with and you can actually protect yourself and your stuff from all kind of things instead of just hoping they don't have it.
It might not be provable what the best SFM shell would be but I imagine a SFM deck as a grindy deck since that's what the card naturally facilitates and when it comes to grinding the power level of the Blue cards is quite obvious and proven.
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
The problem with the tweet is that it shows a lack of understanding of how these top tier decks operate. UW and Jeskai Control do not have the option to run SFM etc., and to claim that UWx's success prohibits SFM from being considered for unbanning is either intentionally misleading to mask some other data that prohibits SFM, or spring woefully uninformed preconceptions of those decks.
Nobody panic! Forsythe was laughably wrong about Sword in 2015 and indirectly admitted his mistake by unbanning Sword a few months later. It's great that he's even opening up lines of communication here and we need to keep constructively engaging him. Whether you agree or disagree with his assessment, make your constructive voice heard and keep this topic on the agenda!
Maybe he makes these kinds of statements on purpose in order to guage community response for the B&R team to act in the future. /tinfoil hat
If the problem with KCI was only power-level, banning Scrap Trawler would have been the solution, if there even was a problem to begin with. KCI was not only being the best performing deck of the last year at premier events, but it took very long time (even in the hands of expert players) and was not attractive in live coverage (as if official Magic coverage was any appealing to begin with, at least when there is game action it shouldn't be dreadful). I just hope KCI players don't start playing Lantern, because that's actually a miserable deck no matter what you play.
Regarding Forsythe opinion on Stoneforge Mystic, his reasoning for not unbanning it is as silly as if they banned it in Legacy to stop Miracles.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Eggs? KCI was not really that slow of a deck, especially in experienced hands.
An experienced player knows the infinite loops of the deck and that could save you a lot of time... once you got there. But with combo decks there are many games in which you are forced to go off without knowing beforehand if you'll succeed, but it's that or losing next turn, and those turns can take long. KCI goes faster than original Eggs, but still slower than Storm.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
If the problem with KCI was only power-level, banning Scrap Trawler would have been the solution, if there even was a problem to begin with. KCI was not only being the best performing deck of the last year at premier events, but it took very long time (even in the hands of expert players) and was not attractive in live coverage (as if official Magic coverage was any appealing to begin with, at least when there is game action it shouldn't be dreadful). I just hope KCI players don't start playing Lantern, because that's actually a miserable deck no matter what you play.
Regarding Forsythe opinion on Stoneforge Mystic, his reasoning for not unbanning it is as silly as if they banned it in Legacy to stop Miracles.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Eggs? KCI was not really that slow of a deck, especially in experienced hands.
An experienced player knows the infinite loops of the deck and that could save you a lot of time... once you got there. But with combo decks there are many games in which you are forced to go off without knowing beforehand if you'll succeed, but it's that or losing next turn, and those turns can take long. KCI goes faster than original Eggs, but still slower than Storm.
That's fine, but I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Storm causes Tournament logistics. Saying KCI is slower than Storm but faster than Eggs is describing legit 99.99% of every Modern deck ever. I'm not claiming KCI players get to grab food between each round, I'm just saying I don't think the deck was causing tournament-level logistic issues.
That's fine, but I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Storm causes Tournament logistics. Saying KCI is slower than Storm but faster than Eggs is describing legit 99.99% of every Modern deck ever. I'm not claiming KCI players get to grab food between each round, I'm just saying I don't think the deck was causing tournament-level logistic issues.
It was not, I never saw a single meaningful article that claimed this. There was early complaints about sometimes long TURNS but most of the time that was not an issue.
I would bet UW players went to time more than KCI players, in 2018.
Plenty of tweets dunking on Wizards logic with SFM, but I still see people saying its too good. I dont get it, at all.
So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
The problem with the tweet is that it shows a lack of understanding of how these top tier decks operate. UW and Jeskai Control do not have the option to run SFM etc., and to claim that UWx's success prohibits SFM from being considered for unbanning is either intentionally misleading to mask some other data that prohibits SFM, or spring woefully uninformed preconceptions of those decks.
Nobody panic! Forsythe was laughably wrong about Sword in 2015 and indirectly admitted his mistake by unbanning Sword a few months later. It's great that he's even opening up lines of communication here and we need to keep constructively engaging him. Whether you agree or disagree with his assessment, make your constructive voice heard and keep this topic on the agenda!
Maybe he makes these kinds of statements on purpose in order to guage community response for the B&R team to act in the future. /tinfoil hat
I don't think it's quite that tinfoil hatty, but I do think Wizards is a lot more plugged into community conversation than we give them credit. Their update hit on a lot of concerns we've seen on articles, Reddit, Twitch, Twitter, this thread, and other conversation platforms. This gives me confidence Wizards will continue to look at these datapoints in deciding on bans. Of course, this also applies to unbans. It's awesome that Forsythe is at least bringing the SFM issue to the table, even if it's initially in the negative. That gives SFM proponents room to work with and arguments to address. Overall, a great day for Modern and Wizards communication.
Ironworks being banned is probably one of the only times I'll ever be happy about them just banning an archetype out of the format. I'm so glad it is done.
It made coverage boring, completely unfun to play against and was gross in the hands of a skilled pilot
They said long TURNS, not long TIME. In a GP, when time is up, you get 5 turns. If the turns are too long you get logistics problems. Storm also has one long turn going off but it happens sooner. KCI can more easily afford to wait.
They set a precedent for banning cards due to time in legacy's Sensei's Divining Top but that's overall game time. This is quite different.
They said long TURNS, not long TIME. In a GP, when time is up, you get 5 turns. If the turns are too long you get logistics problems. Storm also has one long turn going off but it happens sooner. KCI can more easily afford to wait.
They set a precedent for banning cards due to time in legacy's Sensei's Divining Top but that's overall game time. This is quite different.
Second Sunrise got banned because of that (cause it had no loop to execute and was very tight in the combo turns and it took a lot of iterations to kill (boiled down to drawing the deck basically)).
Furthermore, in comparison to Ad Nauseam, every combo is slower to execute
To be fair every company does research on the internet. They would be ******* stupid to not read free feedback on their product.
You would be surprised. A lot of the "feedback" we have on the different platforms (be it here, Reddit, Twitter, Twitch, SCG, CFB,...) suffer under the echo-champer syndrom, where you only have only "one" repeating aspect brought forth. For example, look at Hooglands stream, prime example for this (especially how he handles it too, cause he basically bans anyone who has a different opinion than him).
I worked as balancer/designer for a project for roughly 2 years, finding out, what informations are valid/useful, where to access them, what is an echo-champer, and especially: How does the majority of the player base feel about it are all things, which is freaking hard. So the notion of "They would be **** stupid to not read free feedback on their products" is easy said, but the actually execution is painfully hard.
That is why a lot of game balancers are trusting more "verified" sources (like internal testing team, selected pros, data,...) than something like this thread.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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So I read this tweet as "Not right now" and that is positive enough. Meta will change and that point will no longer hold water at some point. I am not overly distraught by that tweet.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UW Miracles and Junk Nic Fit want to have a word with you. Only Maverick, Death and Taxes and Stoneblade play SFM.
Regarding the ban: Somewhat surprised about the KCI ban, expected something like Trawler instead. That that card was not even in consideration was also surprising. Otherwise, nice "in-depth" article to say it this way.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I understand this logic and would have been happy with either. That said, I also understand why Wizards just took the shot at the deck's biggest offender. The deck is so problematic on so many levels that only a full KCI ban properly prevents it from being a problem in the future. This way you don't have to risk any issues with Sai, Thopter Sword, Emrakul or whatever other engine pieces/payoffs break the deck in the future. True, a Trawler ban addresses some of the archaic rule issues Wizards pointed to, but only the nuclear options decisively addresses other issues like win rate and GP T8 conversion going into 2019. It does suck to have decks wiped out though, and I am sorry for KCI players who had cards, money, and time invested in this strategy. Thankfully, many of their staples will pivot into other viable top-tier strategies.
The problem with the tweet is that it shows a lack of understanding of how these top tier decks operate. UW and Jeskai Control do not have the option to run SFM etc., and to claim that UWx's success prohibits SFM from being considered for unbanning is either intentionally misleading to mask some other data that prohibits SFM, or spring woefully uninformed preconceptions of those decks.
Nobody panic! Forsythe was laughably wrong about Sword in 2015 and indirectly admitted his mistake by unbanning Sword a few months later. It's great that he's even opening up lines of communication here and we need to keep constructively engaging him. Whether you agree or disagree with his assessment, make your constructive voice heard and keep this topic on the agenda!
If Wizards keeps these channels open and consistent, while most of the community strikes when they see wrong and promotes when they see good, we can finally come to terms on more issues than simple format health.
SFM is at its best in an UW/x shell. That was true in Standard, it's true in Legacy and there is no reason to assume that it wouldn't be so in Modern and that's the problem because results are results. UW/x based decks have performed very well over this year and the big three of them are obviously both Control decks in from of Jeskai and Azorius and then of course Spirits. The thing about them is they are all fair decks and they are actually pretty decent against other fair decks. Would SFM go into any these? Maybe not but it would certainly spawn another UW/x based deck that by its nature would probably be very good against other fair decks.
You would have Tribal Aggro, Control and the SFM deck which would probably be Midrange so what would be the problem? Well that's not the only way to look at it and color diversity has been shown to be a concern too and with SFM it might become a concern that if you want to play a fair deck UW/x is the only real way to go. I mean Death's Shadow decks and BG/x decks still exist and put up results but they don't have easy games against the UW decks and would rather face something else the entire day. SFM certainly wouldn't make that better.
How will this impact the meta?
Regarding Forsythe opinion on Stoneforge Mystic, his reasoning for not unbanning it is as silly as if they banned it in Legacy to stop Miracles.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Not to pick any nits but the most successful long term deck using SFM has been mono white Legacy D&T without any doubt at all. UW Stoneblade has been in and out numerous times and not nearly as consistently powerful. You could argue successfully that Cawblade was more dominant but I'd say that's more an issue with putting a ton of eternal playable UW cards in a standard format.
I can see the argument for blue being the best SFM vehicle in Modern but lacking Force of Will pushes you pretty hard down the black path if you want to play tapout midrange.
The combination of Assassin's Trophy and Path to Exile makes me think it's just as likely Abzan is the best SFM deck as Esper or UW. Especially when we think about the high likelihood of it being a thoughtseize deck.
Too many variables to figure out for sure though. I'm not even sure it'd wind up being viable, though Stoneforge for Batterskull does solve a lot of problems current aggro decks present.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Are you sure you're not thinking of Eggs? KCI was not really that slow of a deck, especially in experienced hands.
Well by forgoing Blue you are forgoing stuff like countermagic, Snapcaster Mage, Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. One of the reasons GDS has become the defacto Death's Shadow deck is because of its access to countermagic and the fact that Snapcaster is so good in grindy games and that's something that non-Blue decks have trouble dealing with and you can actually protect yourself and your stuff from all kind of things instead of just hoping they don't have it.
It might not be provable what the best SFM shell would be but I imagine a SFM deck as a grindy deck since that's what the card naturally facilitates and when it comes to grinding the power level of the Blue cards is quite obvious and proven.
Maybe he makes these kinds of statements on purpose in order to guage community response for the B&R team to act in the future. /tinfoil hat
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
An experienced player knows the infinite loops of the deck and that could save you a lot of time... once you got there. But with combo decks there are many games in which you are forced to go off without knowing beforehand if you'll succeed, but it's that or losing next turn, and those turns can take long. KCI goes faster than original Eggs, but still slower than Storm.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Spirits
That's fine, but I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Storm causes Tournament logistics. Saying KCI is slower than Storm but faster than Eggs is describing legit 99.99% of every Modern deck ever. I'm not claiming KCI players get to grab food between each round, I'm just saying I don't think the deck was causing tournament-level logistic issues.
It was not, I never saw a single meaningful article that claimed this. There was early complaints about sometimes long TURNS but most of the time that was not an issue.
I would bet UW players went to time more than KCI players, in 2018.
Spirits
I don't think it's quite that tinfoil hatty, but I do think Wizards is a lot more plugged into community conversation than we give them credit. Their update hit on a lot of concerns we've seen on articles, Reddit, Twitch, Twitter, this thread, and other conversation platforms. This gives me confidence Wizards will continue to look at these datapoints in deciding on bans. Of course, this also applies to unbans. It's awesome that Forsythe is at least bringing the SFM issue to the table, even if it's initially in the negative. That gives SFM proponents room to work with and arguments to address. Overall, a great day for Modern and Wizards communication.
It made coverage boring, completely unfun to play against and was gross in the hands of a skilled pilot
They set a precedent for banning cards due to time in legacy's Sensei's Divining Top but that's overall game time. This is quite different.
Second Sunrise got banned because of that (cause it had no loop to execute and was very tight in the combo turns and it took a lot of iterations to kill (boiled down to drawing the deck basically)).
Furthermore, in comparison to Ad Nauseam, every combo is slower to execute
You would be surprised. A lot of the "feedback" we have on the different platforms (be it here, Reddit, Twitter, Twitch, SCG, CFB,...) suffer under the echo-champer syndrom, where you only have only "one" repeating aspect brought forth. For example, look at Hooglands stream, prime example for this (especially how he handles it too, cause he basically bans anyone who has a different opinion than him).
I worked as balancer/designer for a project for roughly 2 years, finding out, what informations are valid/useful, where to access them, what is an echo-champer, and especially: How does the majority of the player base feel about it are all things, which is freaking hard. So the notion of "They would be **** stupid to not read free feedback on their products" is easy said, but the actually execution is painfully hard.
That is why a lot of game balancers are trusting more "verified" sources (like internal testing team, selected pros, data,...) than something like this thread.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)