If he play it, if it's new, he need to count it. It is a great upgrade for humans, like a great upgrade for elves even it is no Elve. Vial is not a human too, so we don't count it?
No, if I am building a human deck for say, casual kitchen table magic, and I go to Gatherer and type in "Human", Aether Vial will not show up. This conversation was regarding the Human subtype for creatures, not about what upgrades/staples are in the humans deck.
I have a feeling most pro Twin users are, judging by their signature, highly invested in the UR colors and would love to play those very expensive cards at the top level. Which is totally understandable, and thus they preach for a Twin Unban with reasonably fair arguments. But the financial investment alone would cloud objective perspectives to some degree.
Its not this. I could play near anything, as I spent 3 years in the wilderness (still am really) looking for the 'feel' of a deck, more so than what it is. My financial investment is irrelevant as I've spent far more post Twin, than I did ON Twin.
I have a feeling most pro Twin users are, judging by their signature, highly invested in the UR colors and would love to play those very expensive cards at the top level. Which is totally understandable, and thus they preach for a Twin Unban with reasonably fair arguments. But the financial investment alone would cloud objective perspectives to some degree.
Its not this. I could play near anything, as I spent 3 years in the wilderness (still am really) looking for the 'feel' of a deck, more so than what it is. My financial investment is irrelevant as I've spent far more post Twin, than I did ON Twin.
I feel your pain. I'll be very sad the day amulet titan finally dies due to meta shift, bans, etc.
I feel your pain. I'll be very sad the day amulet titan finally dies due to meta shift, bans, etc.
Yep. I've said it before. I dont wish anyone to lose their deck, I prefer unban's before anything. I mean its not about power to me. If it was, I wouldnt be playing what I am right now, and I would be on Phoenix, or GDS or Storm, or something like that.
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
yuuuuuup.
i also did exactly the same thing (although I only traded away 2x retract so I could easily play cheerios at the drop of a hat)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Good, good. I hope Grishoalbrand becomes a true tier 2 deck in the distant future (dedicated Grixis Shadow player, since before day 1 here)!
Bring it on
You monster
Metagame wise, I spent quite a bit of time observing the decks played at GP Liverpool over the three days. Main event and sides. Thousands of players.
My anecdotal read on what was there is that it was a fantastically positive spread of different strategies and within those strategies, different decks.
I saw innovation, plenty of evidence for good metagaming and balancing to combat perceived threats. I saw loads of variety and the good performing decks showed a lot of spread, too.
I'd say without question it was the most diverse I've seen the format since 2012.
An important observation perhaps, but Burn was always well-represented at GP events until now, and this weekend I hardly saw a goblin guide being cast (I mean, I did... But comparatively less than before, where burn was over-represented). Before I've seen 500-person side events where many players would face burn in all three rounds, but now from observation I saw so much different stuff going on, and from the accounts of players this diversification seems to be replicated not just from my personal anecdotal experience but from many others' experiences too.
Truly, despite individuals claiming the sky is falling (which seems to be a constant here) I think modern is better than it's ever been. It was a real eye opener, so different to what I expected (honestly I'd allowed myself to believe some of the negativity I've seen online and I was relieved to see reality disagreeing with those negative people)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Good, good. I hope Grishoalbrand becomes a true tier 2 deck in the distant future (dedicated Grixis Shadow player, since before day 1 here)!
Bring it on
Another Faithless loot deck. Through the breaching a worldspine wurm is brutal...
Well, I'm not complaining. It takes some setup to get the combo going anyway.
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
Man I saw Cheeri0's in a list of Top 8 or side event winners last weekend, total blast from the past as I havent seen it in a long time.
I don't blame you. Grishoalbrand is better from a results perspective and uses the superior consistency tool (Looting > SV). It's also less fragile and has more lines for experienced players to get around hate or win in tight spots. I will say that recent results also don't really justify playing Grishoalbrand. The best decks to out-linear people and also fight through hate are Storm and Infect in that order. Of course, the best linear deck overall is KCI and it's not particularly close, but I assume you really want the T2/T3 wins, which KCI doesn't really accomplish at anywhere near the same rate as Infect/Grishoalbrand/Cheeri0s.
Good, good. I hope Grishoalbrand becomes a true tier 2 deck in the distant future (dedicated Grixis Shadow player, since before day 1 here)!
Bring it on
Another Faithless loot deck. Through the breaching a worldspine wurm is brutal...
Well, I'm not complaining. It takes some setup to get the combo going anyway.
And the deck has a real fail rate. It's decently consistent, but you do brick sometimes. Hoogland just played a game on stream with it where he had 3 Shoals and the Manamorphose he needed in the bottom 9 cards of his deck.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
SV is more consistent than Looting. Looting is a high-variance card - the only card you really want to discard is Griselbrand, maybe Borborygmos (Borb is almost always worse to reanimate than Griselbrand, and holding it in hand means you can pitch it to Shoal if you don't draw Wurm). When your plan ends up being Through the Breach (something that you might not know at the moment you Loot), Looting makes it harder to get there because it's negative CA and Breach is a solid 5 mana. They have to run Night's Whisper just to make up for the negative CA on Looting (sort of like Bedlam Reveler in Mardu or some Phoenix builds).
When you play SV, you don't have to worry about "am I gonna draw something to pitch, or is this gonna be an effective mulligan?" You draw your card, examine your hand, ask yourself "what am I missing, a land? engine?" and scry based on that. Even if your scry is completely useless, you're not down any cards.
In general most Looting decks are high variance, but some of that variance goes down if they have lots of cards that they actively want to discard to Looting (Bloodghast, Vengevine, Fiery Temper, either Phoenix) or other loot effects (Burning Inquiry, Chart a Course)*. Think of looting+stuff to ditch as an A+B combo deck - if you have more copies of A or B, you're naturally more consistent, and if you can play SV on top of that, it looks even rosier. Just that your A+B only generates scads of value instead of auto-winning the game.
There is some hope for Grishoalbrand, though. 11-4 is a good result, and you get to play a Guilds card even. The guy who tweeted that posts here under the same username.
The actual problem with Cheeri0s' is that it has too much air (20 equipment) compared to Grishoalbrand (4 Shoals and 2 Borb). That's a huge disadvantage that not even SV can overcome, and one that's frequently overlooked. Bubble Hulk is another deck that suffers from the same problem.
*Sometimes mill effects can count towards loot too (Thought Scour, Stitcher's Supplier), but you can't have a deck that's all mill and no loot because you'll draw hands containing 2 Bloodghasts and have no way to get them into the graveyard.
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
And the deck has a real fail rate. It's decently consistent, but you do brick sometimes. Hoogland just played a game on stream with it where he had 3 Shoals and the Manamorphose he needed in the bottom 9 cards of his deck.
From the few thousand games I have from playing Griselbrand, usually you only fizzle when you do not know what to do. Also, I do not consider stopping the chain draw to get another untap and win as a "fizzle" since you still win.
@ktkenshinx, the moment where I found out how to easily beat ADN showed me again, how much depth that deck actually has (Note: It is by abusing the Clean-up step ). However, honestly I'm currently steering away from the now traditional Shoal package towards a Ooze package since Mausoleum Secrets allows some very interesting adaptations to the deck. It is btw. still a pitty for the deck that Razaketh, the Foulblooded as the "another" instead of "a" clause, would have been Griselbrand 5-8 otherwise
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
Ugh,this sucks. I only need Mox Opals and EE's to finish KCI, OR, I could throw down ~$200 for arclights and manamorphose to do UR phoenix. On one hand, I just spent 150 bucks throwing together the supplementals for KCI, and goldfishing with it has been surprisingly fun. On the flip side, I reaaaally don't want to spend 400 on opals just to see KCI hampered come the next B&R. What a fantastic dilemma..... Bans suck
Self-quoting just because my wife is awesome. She bought me 4 arclight, 4 manamorphose, and 3 EE last night as an early Christmas gift. Now I get to keep my cake and eat it too!
The actual problem with Cheeri0s' is that it has too much air (20 equipment) compared to Grishoalbrand (4 Shoals and 2 Borb). That's a huge disadvantage that not even SV can overcome, and one that's frequently overlooked. Bubble Hulk is another deck that suffers from the same problem.
The biggest difference I've seen between the two decks is that Grishoalbrand is way more resilient to hate. Cheeri0s folds to interaction. Creature removal, discard, even counter spells can be good against them. Removal isn't good against Grishoalbrand, and they can still kill you if you bring in graveyard hate.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Grixis Deaths Shadow has put up a few good events lately, is it suddenly well positioned now or did they run hot? didn't get to watch much coverage
It's better. Humans and UW are rough, and both of them are seeing downslides with the rises of spirits and dredge. Humans have thalia and reflector mage, while spirits either runs zero of either or 1-2 each in their 75s. Shadow acting as midrange with a capable clock also serves it well against KCI. I don't play online, but I know that KCI is all but extinct there because of the program's limitations. In paper, though, where you may play against KCI a couple of times, shadow is a great option. Hell, even burn is reducing its meta presence in paper, and that is a tricky one to navigate for the shadow pilot.
Grixis Deaths Shadow has put up a few good events lately, is it suddenly well positioned now or did they run hot? didn't get to watch much coverage
It's better. Humans and UW are rough, and both of them are seeing downslides with the rises of spirits and dredge. Humans have thalia and reflector mage, while spirits either runs zero of either or 1-2 each in their 75s. Shadow acting as midrange with a capable clock also serves it well against KCI. I don't play online, but I know that KCI is all but extinct there because of the program's limitations. In paper, though, where you may play against KCI a couple of times, shadow is a great option. Hell, even burn is reducing its meta presence in paper, and that is a tricky one to navigate for the shadow pilot.
Its weird, but I played KCI online twice yesterday.
No, if I am building a human deck for say, casual kitchen table magic, and I go to Gatherer and type in "Human", Aether Vial will not show up. This conversation was regarding the Human subtype for creatures, not about what upgrades/staples are in the humans deck.
Within the context of 'Humans as a Tribe will always be printed, while Spirits as a Tribe will see less support'.
It makes perfect sense. This is not difficult.
Spirits
Its not this. I could play near anything, as I spent 3 years in the wilderness (still am really) looking for the 'feel' of a deck, more so than what it is. My financial investment is irrelevant as I've spent far more post Twin, than I did ON Twin.
Spirits
I feel your pain. I'll be very sad the day amulet titan finally dies due to meta shift, bans, etc.
Yep. I've said it before. I dont wish anyone to lose their deck, I prefer unban's before anything. I mean its not about power to me. If it was, I wouldnt be playing what I am right now, and I would be on Phoenix, or GDS or Storm, or something like that.
It's not about that at all.
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Spirits
yuuuuuup.
i also did exactly the same thing (although I only traded away 2x retract so I could easily play cheerios at the drop of a hat)
You monster
Metagame wise, I spent quite a bit of time observing the decks played at GP Liverpool over the three days. Main event and sides. Thousands of players.
My anecdotal read on what was there is that it was a fantastically positive spread of different strategies and within those strategies, different decks.
I saw innovation, plenty of evidence for good metagaming and balancing to combat perceived threats. I saw loads of variety and the good performing decks showed a lot of spread, too.
I'd say without question it was the most diverse I've seen the format since 2012.
An important observation perhaps, but Burn was always well-represented at GP events until now, and this weekend I hardly saw a goblin guide being cast (I mean, I did... But comparatively less than before, where burn was over-represented). Before I've seen 500-person side events where many players would face burn in all three rounds, but now from observation I saw so much different stuff going on, and from the accounts of players this diversification seems to be replicated not just from my personal anecdotal experience but from many others' experiences too.
Truly, despite individuals claiming the sky is falling (which seems to be a constant here) I think modern is better than it's ever been. It was a real eye opener, so different to what I expected (honestly I'd allowed myself to believe some of the negativity I've seen online and I was relieved to see reality disagreeing with those negative people)
Another Faithless loot deck. Through the breaching a worldspine wurm is brutal...
Well, I'm not complaining. It takes some setup to get the combo going anyway.
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I don't blame you. Grishoalbrand is better from a results perspective and uses the superior consistency tool (Looting > SV). It's also less fragile and has more lines for experienced players to get around hate or win in tight spots. I will say that recent results also don't really justify playing Grishoalbrand. The best decks to out-linear people and also fight through hate are Storm and Infect in that order. Of course, the best linear deck overall is KCI and it's not particularly close, but I assume you really want the T2/T3 wins, which KCI doesn't really accomplish at anywhere near the same rate as Infect/Grishoalbrand/Cheeri0s.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
When you play SV, you don't have to worry about "am I gonna draw something to pitch, or is this gonna be an effective mulligan?" You draw your card, examine your hand, ask yourself "what am I missing, a land? engine?" and scry based on that. Even if your scry is completely useless, you're not down any cards.
In general most Looting decks are high variance, but some of that variance goes down if they have lots of cards that they actively want to discard to Looting (Bloodghast, Vengevine, Fiery Temper, either Phoenix) or other loot effects (Burning Inquiry, Chart a Course)*. Think of looting+stuff to ditch as an A+B combo deck - if you have more copies of A or B, you're naturally more consistent, and if you can play SV on top of that, it looks even rosier. Just that your A+B only generates scads of value instead of auto-winning the game.
There is some hope for Grishoalbrand, though. 11-4 is a good result, and you get to play a Guilds card even. The guy who tweeted that posts here under the same username.
The actual problem with Cheeri0s' is that it has too much air (20 equipment) compared to Grishoalbrand (4 Shoals and 2 Borb). That's a huge disadvantage that not even SV can overcome, and one that's frequently overlooked. Bubble Hulk is another deck that suffers from the same problem.
*Sometimes mill effects can count towards loot too (Thought Scour, Stitcher's Supplier), but you can't have a deck that's all mill and no loot because you'll draw hands containing 2 Bloodghasts and have no way to get them into the graveyard.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
From the few thousand games I have from playing Griselbrand, usually you only fizzle when you do not know what to do. Also, I do not consider stopping the chain draw to get another untap and win as a "fizzle" since you still win.
@ktkenshinx, the moment where I found out how to easily beat ADN showed me again, how much depth that deck actually has (Note: It is by abusing the Clean-up step ). However, honestly I'm currently steering away from the now traditional Shoal package towards a Ooze package since Mausoleum Secrets allows some very interesting adaptations to the deck. It is btw. still a pitty for the deck that Razaketh, the Foulblooded as the "another" instead of "a" clause, would have been Griselbrand 5-8 otherwise
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You mean Serum Visions, right? I would love to play Preordain
Self-quoting just because my wife is awesome. She bought me 4 arclight, 4 manamorphose, and 3 EE last night as an early Christmas gift. Now I get to keep my cake and eat it too!
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Spirits
It's better. Humans and UW are rough, and both of them are seeing downslides with the rises of spirits and dredge. Humans have thalia and reflector mage, while spirits either runs zero of either or 1-2 each in their 75s. Shadow acting as midrange with a capable clock also serves it well against KCI. I don't play online, but I know that KCI is all but extinct there because of the program's limitations. In paper, though, where you may play against KCI a couple of times, shadow is a great option. Hell, even burn is reducing its meta presence in paper, and that is a tricky one to navigate for the shadow pilot.
humnas was AWFUL, one of the main reasons for the decline. Humans isn't nearly as popular now
Its weird, but I played KCI online twice yesterday.
Spirits
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]