What about; how many players has been playing the decks in the whole tournaments?
Exemple:
KCI ---> 12,5% of the top8 -----> while 1,5% of players played the deck.
I'm pretty sure KCI is not played alot and is still the number 1 deck.
(sorry bad english)
Pretty sure I remember seeing the breakdown on the GP during an ad-break and KCI was second highest after Bant Spirits, but I'll let someone with the actual info confirm.
Also, Wizards has publicly cited Top8 percentages as banning rationale, but has not mentioned total tournament percentages, so while those numbers might be useful for seeing the bigger picture of the meta, Wizards has told us it isn't really a criteria for banning.
I've been out of Modern for a few months and I see plenty of new archetypes, based on threats that have been printed throughout 2018, but the best answers keep being Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Oh well, we got a fringe sideboard card in Damping Sphere, and Assassin's Trophy!
Possible solutions:
1. Print good answers in Standard, where Mana Leak is de facto banned because it's too strong. We'd have to ask design team to look for alternative costs easy to pay in Modern but not in Standard (delve anyone?) that don't lead to the reprint of Ancestral Recall at common frequency this time.
Do we want better answers though? Swords to Plowshares has already been shot down by some in this thread for fear of killing GDS outright. A correct assessment or not, it speaks to how powerful removal already is and yet it continues to be viewed as the weaker end of the format.
WotC cannot make cheaper removal, so they have to make more powerful removal. I don't think they can realistically do that at 1cmc without upsetting something major. As much as I agree that threats have become too diverse and too resilient, I don't think we want to see things better than Path, Bolt, Thoughtseize, or Push at 1cmc.
More so than fixing interaction, I want to avoid a Force of Will variant. I don't want to fix free things with more free things (I'm comparing FoW to Bloodghast, Phoenix, Hollow One, Amalgam, Creeping Chill, Vial, etc). That said I'd like to avoid Mental Misstep as well. Joke is on us though, we are talking about free counters while they have been against Counterspell for years! (I do recognize that this might happen soon though, seen some light discussion and references in this thread; just feels like a relevant piece of context.) However, they do still continue to print free affects for everyone else as long as it isn't removal, discard, or counter.
EDIT: Boggles made it on my list of free things, somehow...
WotC cannot make cheaper removal, so they have to make more powerful removal. I don't think they can realistically do that at 1cmc without upsetting something major. As much as I agree that threats have become too diverse and too resilient, I don't think we want to see things better than Path, Bolt, Thoughtseize, or Push at 1cmc.
Correct!
And if people really think 'force-lite' is going to be accepted by the wider community? Come on.
Look at my desired list. It takes a ton of power out of the top decks, and that WOULD translate to more power back to the fair (BGx/UWx) decks.
Would that kind of banning knock out a ton of the population? I dont know. Free SFM and Twin while you are at it as an olive branch?
We have enough removal tbh. The two major ones that Legacy has is STP and Council's Judgment. I think the answer would be to have better counterspells. IMO its all relative, and Mana Leak was probably deemed to powerful due to other cards like teferi existing in the Standard format right now. It also doesnt help that Mana Leak alongside Ponder and Delver is still fresh in Wotc's memory
Why would you want Terminus banned??? The only thing it does is slow things down.
The "Top Stories of GP Oakland" on the main site ends with a little mini-expose on KCI. I don't know how much the banlist is open knowledge within Wizards, but it seems odd for the deck to be given such a pleasant bit of writing if they have already decided to off it in two weeks. Might just be the author not being in on those discussions, but at this point it's some sort of data point.
Edit: also, Day 2 there were 12 copies of KCI. 33% T8 conversion sounds positively dreadful for the deck. I'm gonna have to pick something else to start testing with.
I worry that if you hit all the decks but UW, that Terminus would be enough to strangle the format. I also thing Terminus is an absolutely absurd card.
Honestly Terminus-level interaction is what I'm banking on to make interaction more viable. With more 6-Mana interactive effects that you can do on the cheap under certain conditions, interactive decks would be better equipped to fight back.
I doubt terminus encourages interaction in the format as a whole. Creature based midrange such as GWx simply lose to Terminus. The best creature decks now are able to threaten the kill fast enough to force the 'Terminus now or lose' situations. Slower interactive GWx decks such as Value Town, Bant Midrange, Big Zoo can't do that. UWx has all the time in the world to leverage spot removal to force an over-extension into terminus. Followed up by a Teferi and the game is virtually over. GBx fares better if they get aggressive draw with multiple discard spells to take a commanding lead early on but you know as the saying goes "can't thoughtseize the top of the deck", GBx is still under heavy pressure to end the game as fast as possible.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I’d like to see something like a trap card with conditions that make it cheaper to cast. Something like:
4R – Wave of Flames
Instant - Trap
If an opponent had 2 or more creatures enter the battlefield this turn, you may pay (R) instead of paying its mana cost.
Wave of Flames deals 4 damage to each creature. If a creature dealt damage by Wave of Flames would die this turn, exile it instead.
That, or something with conditional upgrades to a spell.
1RB - Destroy a Thing
Instant
Destroy target creature or artifact.
If an opponent had a permanent enter the battlefield from the graveyard this turn, you may exile target creature or artifact instead. Then, exile each card on the battlefield and graveyard with the same name.
^This is what I was talking about, not just copies 5-8 of Terminus. Cards with high mana worth of effect, but with alternate casting costs. Not necessarily those cards exactly, but you get the idea.
I've been out of Modern for a few months and I see plenty of new archetypes, based on threats that have been printed throughout 2018, but the best answers keep being Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile. Oh well, we got a fringe sideboard card in Damping Sphere, and Assassin's Trophy!
Possible solutions:
1. Print good answers in Standard, where Mana Leak is de facto banned because it's too strong. We'd have to ask design team to look for alternative costs easy to pay in Modern but not in Standard (delve anyone?) that don't lead to the reprint of Ancestral Recall at common frequency this time.
Do we want better answers though? Swords to Plowshares has already been shot down by some in this thread for fear of killing GDS outright. A correct assessment or not, it speaks to how powerful removal already is and yet it continues to be viewed as the weaker end of the format.
WotC cannot make cheaper removal, so they have to make more powerful removal. I don't think they can realistically do that at 1cmc without upsetting something major. As much as I agree that threats have become too diverse and too resilient, I don't think we want to see things better than Path, Bolt, Thoughtseize, or Push at 1cmc.
More so than fixing interaction, I want to avoid a Force of Will variant. I don't want to fix free things with more free things (I'm comparing FoW to Bloodghast, Phoenix, Hollow One, Amalgam, Creeping Chill, Vial, etc). That said I'd like to avoid Mental Misstep as well. Joke is on us though, we are talking about free counters while they have been against Counterspell for years! (I do recognize that this might happen soon though, seen some light discussion and references in this thread; just feels like a relevant piece of context.) However, they do still continue to print free affects for everyone else as long as it isn't removal, discard, or counter.
EDIT: Boggles made it on my list of free things, somehow...
Spells that kill creatures are already very efficient in Modern, but broad efficient answers are scarce, other than Thoughtseize (and Inquisition of Kozilek). However, for every deck out there, we could list a handful of very powerful hate cards that completely destroy it... but then are close to useless against the rest of the field. So either we get broad efficient answers, or better ways to find the narrow ones. Perhaps Enlightened Tutor (or a worse version that forces you to discard card as additional cost, 2x1 against you) would solve more things in Modern than Counterspell.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Spells that kill creatures are already very efficient in Modern, but broad efficient answers are scarce, other than Thoughtseize (and Inquisition of Kozilek). However, for every deck out there, we could list a handful of very powerful hate cards that completely destroy it... but then are close to useless against the rest of the field. So either we get broad efficient answers, or better ways to find the narrow ones. Perhaps Enlightened Tutor (or a worse version that forces you to discard card as additional cost, 2x1 against you) would solve more things in Modern than Counterspell.
Ya, that's what I'm saying. I don't think we can handle anything more efficient than we already have. As far as sweepers are concerned, I don't really have an opinion other than 4cmc is a pretty good standard.
That Terminus ban suggestion was paaaaainful. I can't begin to imagine why someone would want to remove one of UWx's best weapons for fighting interactive decks when one of Modern's chief problems is a lack of effective answers. Thankfully, there's about a 0% chance Wizards is even considering a Terminus ban, so I'm not going to argue this point too strenuously.
If I'm predicting bans, I would predict Trawler, KCI, and Stirrings in that order. Also, an SFM unban. I am actively predicting that "No changes" will not happen, and am predicting that at least one card gets banned.
Does anyone happen to have on hand, an link or breakdown of 2018 Modern GP Top 8s by deck? Also the number of Top 8's for Twin in 2015? I'm looking, but I seem to see these number referenced frequently, I thought asking the group might be faster
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Does anyone happen to have on hand, an link or breakdown of 2018 Modern GP Top 8s by deck? Also the number of Top 8's for Twin in 2015? I'm looking, but I seem to see these number referenced frequently, I thought asking the group might be faster
GP Omaha - 0 Twin
GP Van - 1 Twin
GP Charlotte - 2 Twin
GP Copenhagen - 1 Twin
GP Singapore - 1 Twin (2 Affinity, 2 Jund/1 Junk)
GP Oklahoma City - 1 Twin
GP Porto Alegre - 1 Twin
GP Pittsburgh - 3 Twin
That Terminus ban suggestion was paaaaainful. I can't begin to imagine why someone would want to remove one of UWx's best weapons for fighting interactive decks when one of Modern's chief problems is a lack of effective answers. Thankfully, there's about a 0% chance Wizards is even considering a Terminus ban, so I'm not going to argue this point too strenuously.
If I'm predicting bans, I would predict Trawler, KCI, and Stirrings in that order. Also, an SFM unban. I am actively predicting that "No changes" will not happen, and am predicting that at least one card gets banned.
Context matters. Terminus was suggested together with a heavy list of Modern's top 'Offenders' by IdSurge. Nobody actually thinks this will happen.
Regardless, I stick by my statement that midrange will never have a solid foothold in Modern as long as Terminus is the sweeper of choice and it only gets stronger if Modern slows down.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Does anyone happen to have on hand, an link or breakdown of 2018 Modern GP Top 8s by deck? Also the number of Top 8's for Twin in 2015? I'm looking, but I seem to see these number referenced frequently, I thought asking the group might be faster
I don't have the numbers off hand (I think it was around 18%), but KCI is currently lower than twin was IIRC. That assumes it something from KCI is banned on a competitive diversity angle as opposed to something else. Twin established a new floor for T8 "dominance," but we don't truly know where that floor is (it was widely considered 20% pre-twin).
*edit*
To clarify, I think the 18% included the PT and there were no team events at the time. WotC cited the PT among other reasons in their various ban rational, so as problematic as the PT data is compared to a GP, it is still a factor.
I went to the GP Oakland. Despite doing terribly myself, I know many people that made runs on Day 2, and a local boy who got top 8 with KCI. If you got any questions for me about the GP, feel free to shoot.
After my first 2 rounds, I predicted to friends that UR Phoenix wins this GP. I feel like GP Oakland is essentially GP Phoenix. I realize it was anybody's game at the end and Hunter scooped to his friend Eli to get him Platinum, but I was indeed correct after 2 rounds of the GP.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Does anyone happen to have on hand, an link or breakdown of 2018 Modern GP Top 8s by deck? Also the number of Top 8's for Twin in 2015? I'm looking, but I seem to see these number referenced frequently, I thought asking the group might be faster
I don't have the numbers off hand (I think it was around 18%), but KCI is currently lower than twin was IIRC. That assumes it something from KCI is banned on a competitive diversity angle as opposed to something else. Twin established a new floor for T8 "dominance," but we don't truly know where that floor is (it was widely considered 20% pre-twin).
*edit*
To clarify, I think the 18% included the PT and there were no team events at the time. WotC cited the PT among other reasons in their various ban rational, so as problematic as the PT data is compared to a GP, it is still a factor.
How are we calculating it? Slots taken?
15% Twin in 2015
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UW Spirits
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Pretty sure I remember seeing the breakdown on the GP during an ad-break and KCI was second highest after Bant Spirits, but I'll let someone with the actual info confirm.
Also, Wizards has publicly cited Top8 percentages as banning rationale, but has not mentioned total tournament percentages, so while those numbers might be useful for seeing the bigger picture of the meta, Wizards has told us it isn't really a criteria for banning.
WotC cannot make cheaper removal, so they have to make more powerful removal. I don't think they can realistically do that at 1cmc without upsetting something major. As much as I agree that threats have become too diverse and too resilient, I don't think we want to see things better than Path, Bolt, Thoughtseize, or Push at 1cmc.
More so than fixing interaction, I want to avoid a Force of Will variant. I don't want to fix free things with more free things (I'm comparing FoW to Bloodghast, Phoenix, Hollow One, Amalgam, Creeping Chill, Vial, etc). That said I'd like to avoid Mental Misstep as well. Joke is on us though, we are talking about free counters while they have been against Counterspell for years! (I do recognize that this might happen soon though, seen some light discussion and references in this thread; just feels like a relevant piece of context.) However, they do still continue to print free affects for everyone else as long as it isn't removal, discard, or counter.
EDIT: Boggles made it on my list of free things, somehow...
"Reveal a Dragon"
Desired: Stirrings, Looting, Manamorphose, Creeping Chill, Terminus, all banned, just take the top off the format and slow it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NriOZ6ofj_Q
Correct!
And if people really think 'force-lite' is going to be accepted by the wider community? Come on.
Look at my desired list. It takes a ton of power out of the top decks, and that WOULD translate to more power back to the fair (BGx/UWx) decks.
Would that kind of banning knock out a ton of the population? I dont know. Free SFM and Twin while you are at it as an olive branch?
Spirits
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
The "Top Stories of GP Oakland" on the main site ends with a little mini-expose on KCI. I don't know how much the banlist is open knowledge within Wizards, but it seems odd for the deck to be given such a pleasant bit of writing if they have already decided to off it in two weeks. Might just be the author not being in on those discussions, but at this point it's some sort of data point.
Edit: also, Day 2 there were 12 copies of KCI. 33% T8 conversion sounds positively dreadful for the deck. I'm gonna have to pick something else to start testing with.
Spirits
4R – Wave of Flames
Instant - Trap
If an opponent had 2 or more creatures enter the battlefield this turn, you may pay (R) instead of paying its mana cost.
Wave of Flames deals 4 damage to each creature. If a creature dealt damage by Wave of Flames would die this turn, exile it instead.
That, or something with conditional upgrades to a spell.
1RB - Destroy a Thing
Instant
Destroy target creature or artifact.
If an opponent had a permanent enter the battlefield from the graveyard this turn, you may exile target creature or artifact instead. Then, exile each card on the battlefield and graveyard with the same name.
Spells that kill creatures are already very efficient in Modern, but broad efficient answers are scarce, other than Thoughtseize (and Inquisition of Kozilek). However, for every deck out there, we could list a handful of very powerful hate cards that completely destroy it... but then are close to useless against the rest of the field. So either we get broad efficient answers, or better ways to find the narrow ones. Perhaps Enlightened Tutor (or a worse version that forces you to discard card as additional cost, 2x1 against you) would solve more things in Modern than Counterspell.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
As a GBx player, I want DRS back ! But the problem is that the card itself is a problem haha!
It would repair a problem by another problem.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Ya, that's what I'm saying. I don't think we can handle anything more efficient than we already have. As far as sweepers are concerned, I don't really have an opinion other than 4cmc is a pretty good standard.
"Reveal a Dragon"
If I'm predicting bans, I would predict Trawler, KCI, and Stirrings in that order. Also, an SFM unban. I am actively predicting that "No changes" will not happen, and am predicting that at least one card gets banned.
GP Omaha - 0 Twin
GP Van - 1 Twin
GP Charlotte - 2 Twin
GP Copenhagen - 1 Twin
GP Singapore - 1 Twin (2 Affinity, 2 Jund/1 Junk)
GP Oklahoma City - 1 Twin
GP Porto Alegre - 1 Twin
GP Pittsburgh - 3 Twin
Spirits
Context matters. Terminus was suggested together with a heavy list of Modern's top 'Offenders' by IdSurge. Nobody actually thinks this will happen.
Regardless, I stick by my statement that midrange will never have a solid foothold in Modern as long as Terminus is the sweeper of choice and it only gets stronger if Modern slows down.
Go ahead and try and play a 'fair' midrange deck into Terminus. Its a joke.
Spirits
I don't have the numbers off hand (I think it was around 18%), but KCI is currently lower than twin was IIRC. That assumes it something from KCI is banned on a competitive diversity angle as opposed to something else. Twin established a new floor for T8 "dominance," but we don't truly know where that floor is (it was widely considered 20% pre-twin).
*edit*
To clarify, I think the 18% included the PT and there were no team events at the time. WotC cited the PT among other reasons in their various ban rational, so as problematic as the PT data is compared to a GP, it is still a factor.
After my first 2 rounds, I predicted to friends that UR Phoenix wins this GP. I feel like GP Oakland is essentially GP Phoenix. I realize it was anybody's game at the end and Hunter scooped to his friend Eli to get him Platinum, but I was indeed correct after 2 rounds of the GP.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)How are we calculating it? Slots taken?
15% Twin in 2015
Spirits