MD GY hate is definitely a red flag if sustained under the "battle of sideboards" paradigm. I guess technically it's not a battle of SBs if it's in the main (lol)? Given that UW was totally successful without MD RIP, that Dredge is still successful even against MD RIP, and that we didn't start seeing MD RIP until Dredge got Chill, this further points to a return to 2016 GGT-style issues. Indeed, the PTQ-winning list beat the UW RIP list 2-1 in the semi-finals.
PTQ T8s are weird to use as T8 indicators. Only the T6 decks clearly had more points (24+). The 7th and 8th place decks had 21 points, along with all the decks from 9th place to 29th place. So that means one of the T8 Hardened Scales and the T8 Bant Spirits really could have been anything else between 9th and 29th place if the breakers had swung a little differently.
I was thinking about this after your post, and I just feel that the most refined proactive decks are so tight now, that it puts them on that next level.
I'm not sure if GDS is there or even if there are 5 decks in this realm.
Dredge
Tron
Hollow One
KCI?
Humans or Spirits?
Something like that I think, as far as the best built Modern decks.
Yeah, all those decks are strong. Although can't comment whether they are on the "next level" since I don't have many expriences on the others. Only play on FNM after all. Spirits is a little more difficult than humans in my opinion. The hexproof, spell queller, and the fact that almost all of them fly are tough to play against.
And just one last thoughts on Dredge... I don't think Chill should be banned. Voted no bans on other thread. However, WoTC should not add anymore weapons to Dredge as the deck is already very strong.
As I said before two paths either Looting and Stirrings need to be hit with a ban or blue cantrips need to get off the ban list.
From a perspective of 'whats fair is fair' this has some merit, but it literally would change nothing. Looting is not inherently more powerful that what the blue cantrips we have are doing, its simply the better GY based win conditions. The meta does not change, based on this path of action.
I was thinking about this after your post, and I just feel that the most refined proactive decks are so tight now, that it puts them on that next level.
I'm not sure if GDS is there or even if there are 5 decks in this realm.
Dredge
Tron
Hollow One
KCI?
Humans or Spirits?
Something like that I think, as far as the best built Modern decks.
Yeah, all those decks are strong. Although can't comment whether they are on the "next level" since I don't have many expriences on the others. Only play on FNM after all. Spirits is a little more difficult than humans in my opinion. The hexproof, spell queller, and the fact that almost all of them fly are tough to play against.
And just one last thoughts on Dredge... I don't think Chill should be banned. Voted no bans on other thread. However, WoTC should not add anymore weapons to Dredge as the deck is already very strong.
I'm looking at it as an extension of that meme/image posted by ktk sourced from wrapter on Twitter.
Many of us fool ourselves that we have the answer, when in reality, we do not, and as such a proactive plan is better. We touch on it in this thread all the time, tronix mentioned a page or so back I think that its simply better to have your plan, and a way to fight through the hate, than it is to have no plan, and bring the hate.
Dredge is so tight. Same with Hollow One, G-Affinity, Infect, and so on. The decks are beautifully constructed.
I cannot say the same for something like UWR, that warped itself way too much with the inclusion of Terminus (imo) instead of just becoming UW, or Blue Moon, which is literally just a pile of Cantrips and Remand, hoping to land a Moon and lock someone out while they swing in with a Horror or Drake.
I dont know, I'm just looking at how some of these decks, which have been powerful examples of proactive synergy for years now, and are so resilient that they demand you answer them with hate, and even that may not be enough (Dredge, Tron, Hollow One) that I just wonder on if that is not the 'right' way to play Magic.
It would certainly appear to be, at the highest level of play.
EDIT: This isnt to say that the vaunted 'diversity' of Modern doesnt exist. It does. I have played and won with many different decks, heck a week or so ago I won with Goblins and Frenzy!
However if someone put a gun to our collective heads, and said 'pick 3 decks and you better not lose' I think the list of choices would be very very small.
I'm looking at it as an extension of that meme/image posted by ktk sourced from wrapter on Twitter.
Many of us fool ourselves that we have the answer, when in reality, we do not, and as such a proactive plan is better. We touch on it in this thread all the time, tronix mentioned a page or so back I think that its simply better to have your plan, and a way to fight through the hate, than it is to have no plan, and bring the hate.
Dredge is so tight. Same with Hollow One, G-Affinity, Infect, and so on. The decks are beautifully constructed.
I cannot say the same for something like UWR, that warped itself way too much with the inclusion of Terminus (imo) instead of just becoming UW, or Blue Moon, which is literally just a pile of Cantrips and Remand, hoping to land a Moon and lock someone out while they swing in with a Horror or Drake.
I dont know, I'm just looking at how some of these decks, which have been powerful examples of proactive synergy for years now, and are so resilient that they demand you answer them with hate, and even that may not be enough (Dredge, Tron, Hollow One) that I just wonder on if that is not the 'right' way to play Magic.
It would certainly appear to be, at the highest level of play.
Removed the other quotes because the quote is getting big. Agreed on Hollow One... it's really consistent even if they have a random element in their deck. I think Hollow One is one of the things that caused the decline of Ponza a few months ago. They're simply faster than us, and Blood Moon almost has no effect.
EDIT: This isnt to say that the vaunted 'diversity' of Modern doesnt exist. It does. I have played and won with many different decks, heck a week or so ago I won with Goblins and Frenzy!
However if someone put a gun to our collective heads, and said 'pick 3 decks and you better not lose' I think the list of choices would be very very small.
Have to agree again, the diversity of modern does exist.
The random goblin deck or homebrew could still sometimes win.
it's just kidding inside spoiler
I'd rather not play magic if someone at FNM puts gun into people's heads, then make choose a deck. hehe
And cannot look at goblins the same way again after watching this. when I see a goblin deck on the opposite side of the table, I feel the need to kill all the little buggers with anger of the gods for all the atrocities that they did! --- just a JOKE OK. ^_____^
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.
Does this mean that any further ban out of the dredge deck, if it ever happens, would have to be another dredge card such as Stinkweed Imp? According to Wizards the dredge mechanic is always the real offender in that deck. Is this true? How do they know that the mechanic is the real offender, and not, say, the creatures that come out of the graveyard for free? Or draw effects such as Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. In legacy, Bazaar of Baghdad is banned but none of the dredge cards. They are admitting in that format that the draw power is more problematic than anything else in that archetype. Why are we not considering this may be also be the case in modern?
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.
Does this mean that any further ban out of the dredge deck, if it ever happens, would have to be another dredge card such as Stinkweed Imp? According to Wizards the dredge mechanic is always the real offender in that deck. Is this true? How do they know that the mechanic is the real offender, and not, say, the creatures that come out of the graveyard for free? Or draw effects such as Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. In legacy, Bazaar of Baghdad is banned but none of the dredge cards. They are admitting in that format that the draw power is more problematic than anything else in that archetype. Why are we not considering this may be also be the case in modern?
Because in no way is anything printed after 8th Edition as unequivocally broken as Bazaar of Baghdad.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
From the GP/PT T8 perspective, Looting is actually a worse performer than SV. I wouldn't worry about it.
How would you cripple Dredge then? I have seen Looting bring the plague of one graveyard abusing deck after another seems if you want to weaken hese deck types taking out looting is a good target.
From the GP/PT T8 perspective, Looting is actually a worse performer than SV. I wouldn't worry about it.
How would you cripple Dredge then? I have seen Looting bring the plague of one graveyard abusing deck after another seems if you want to weaken hese deck types taking out looting is a good target.
No, looting isnt the target.
If you wanted to cripple dredge, you hit Bloodghast. That is the card if Dredge/Hollow One/BridgeVince become an issue.
Is there a need to cripple dredge? I personally think things coming off the ban list + new printings sound more palatable.
I agree. I don't see Dredge as currently bannable. If something continues to prove that it is, like Golgari Grave-Troll did, then and only then should a ban be possible here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
If you wanted to cripple dredge, you hit Bloodghast. That is the card if Dredge/Hollow One/BridgeVince become an issue.
Agreed. In my experience playing against all sorts of decks with bloodghast, the ghast being allowed to get through a few times.. the damage piles up. This vampire is a prime target for exiling when I see it.
Hmm, but no need to cripple dredge.. right now it's a competitive deck, not a broken deck.
If you wanted to cripple dredge, you hit Bloodghast. That is the card if Dredge/Hollow One/BridgeVince become an issue.
Agreed. In my experience playing against all sorts of decks with bloodghast, the ghast being allowed to get through a few times.. the damage piles up. This vampire is a prime target for exiling when I see it.
Hmm, but no need to cripple dredge.. right now it's a competitive deck, not a broken deck.
Hitting Bloodghast also hits Hollow One.
Before Creeping Chill, did anyone even complain about Dredge? If Dredge is the problem, then just get rid of Creeping Chill. It doesnt hit any other deck, and doesnt even kill Dredge.
This is , of course, if the consensus is that Dredge is OP and needs a ban.
For a long time, I’ve thought that Bloodghast was the problematic card within the Dredge deck, even when people were clamoring for a GGT ban. IF (and that’s a big IF) the deck does require a ban, I think Bloodghast has always been the card that needed to go.
Bloodghast is the card that makes the recurring threat engine work, since it gives the deck an on demand way to bring back ALL of their threats back. It’s the primary card that makes standard, non-exiling removal a joke against the deck. Without it, it makes the entire Dredge mechanic a much less offensive modern, since a Narcomoeba hit the only thing that can put their grave back into play.
Creeping Chill just gives the deck another form of inevitability that cannot be interacted with and I doubt it would be a huge problem if the deck didn’t also have a highly reliable method of keeping the board pressure on.
I just calculated all the results fro SCG Regionals(areas: Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Raleigh, New York, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Columbus, Columbia, Orlando, Michigan). This is the number of Top8's.
I just calculated all the results fro SCG Regionals(areas: Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Raleigh, New York, Minneapolis, Baltimore, Columbus, Columbia, Orlando, Michigan). This is the number of Top8's.
Hmm what I find interesting here is that this clearly goes against all the people who seem to be down on BG midrange decks.
I believe this is because many people who hold that opinion place undue weight on the results of GP, which are probably the least representative events possible for the vast majority of players. The unique GP dynamics play out in deck selection and metagame bias. For instance, control and midrange decks where you try to answer everything are tough sells at GP; there are so many unknown players and decks and answers aren't that good. This is true in Standard, let alone Modern. But at a more local event with no more than 150ish players, you might personally know at least half of the field, or even more if there are fewer players. This makes it easier to tune a control and/or midrange deck to line up against threats.
This underscores the importance of not just using GP results, especially narrow American GP results, to determine global Modern metagame health. I'd also go so far as to say that GP ATL did not appear to adversely impact diversity at this circuit. People did not give those results as much weight as they could have. We'll see if that also happens at the RPTQ level in the coming weeks.
For a long time, I’ve thought that Bloodghast was the problematic card within the Dredge deck, even when people were clamoring for a GGT ban. IF (and that’s a big IF) the deck does require a ban, I think Bloodghast has always been the card that needed to go.
Bloodghast is the card that makes the recurring threat engine work, since it gives the deck an on demand way to bring back ALL of their threats back. It’s the primary card that makes standard, non-exiling removal a joke against the deck. Without it, it makes the entire Dredge mechanic a much less offensive modern, since a Narcomoeba hit the only thing that can put their grave back into play.
Creeping Chill just gives the deck another form of inevitability that cannot be interacted with and I doubt it would be a huge problem if the deck didn’t also have a highly reliable method of keeping the board pressure on.
But no one cared about Dredge pre Creeping Chill. Creeping Chill put the deck into tier 1. Don't kill the entire deck. Don't hit other decks like Bridgevine and Hallow one because of Dredge. I understand Blooghast is the best card in the deck, but it should be Creeping Chill to be banned if anything
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.
Does this mean that any further ban out of the dredge deck, if it ever happens, would have to be another dredge card such as Stinkweed Imp? According to Wizards the dredge mechanic is always the real offender in that deck. Is this true? How do they know that the mechanic is the real offender, and not, say, the creatures that come out of the graveyard for free? Or draw effects such as Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. In legacy, Bazaar of Baghdad is banned but none of the dredge cards. They are admitting in that format that the draw power is more problematic than anything else in that archetype. Why are we not considering this may be also be the case in modern?
Because in no way is anything printed after 8th Edition as unequivocally broken as Bazaar of Baghdad.
Bazaar is really not a good card except in very specific decks like dredge. I think its at least similar to Faithless Looting because both are inherent card disadvantage yet power up graveyard based decks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Spirits
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
MD GY hate is definitely a red flag if sustained under the "battle of sideboards" paradigm. I guess technically it's not a battle of SBs if it's in the main (lol)? Given that UW was totally successful without MD RIP, that Dredge is still successful even against MD RIP, and that we didn't start seeing MD RIP until Dredge got Chill, this further points to a return to 2016 GGT-style issues. Indeed, the PTQ-winning list beat the UW RIP list 2-1 in the semi-finals.
For reference in case people haven't tallied them:
1. Bant Spirits: 6 (18.8%)
2. UW Control: 5 (15.6%)
3. Hardened Scales: 4 (12.5%)
4. Humans: 4 (12.5%)
5. Dredge: 2 (6.3%)
6. UW Spirits: 2 (6.3%)
7. BG Rock: 1 (3.1%)
8. UR Wizards: 1 (3.1%)
9. UR Arclight: 1 (3.1%)
10. 4C Death's Shadow: 1 (3.1%)
11. Grixis Death's Shadow: 1 (3.1%)
12. Titanshift: 1 (3.1%)
13. KCI: 1 (3.1%)
14. Mill: 1 (3.1%)
15. Storm: 1 (3.1%)
PTQ T8s are weird to use as T8 indicators. Only the T6 decks clearly had more points (24+). The 7th and 8th place decks had 21 points, along with all the decks from 9th place to 29th place. So that means one of the T8 Hardened Scales and the T8 Bant Spirits really could have been anything else between 9th and 29th place if the breakers had swung a little differently.
Great against Dredge but the window against spirits, is pretty narrow. Still a good card right now.
Spirits
Yeah, all those decks are strong. Although can't comment whether they are on the "next level" since I don't have many expriences on the others. Only play on FNM after all. Spirits is a little more difficult than humans in my opinion. The hexproof, spell queller, and the fact that almost all of them fly are tough to play against.
And just one last thoughts on Dredge... I don't think Chill should be banned. Voted no bans on other thread. However, WoTC should not add anymore weapons to Dredge as the deck is already very strong.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
From a perspective of 'whats fair is fair' this has some merit, but it literally would change nothing. Looting is not inherently more powerful that what the blue cantrips we have are doing, its simply the better GY based win conditions. The meta does not change, based on this path of action.
I'm looking at it as an extension of that meme/image posted by ktk sourced from wrapter on Twitter.
Many of us fool ourselves that we have the answer, when in reality, we do not, and as such a proactive plan is better. We touch on it in this thread all the time, tronix mentioned a page or so back I think that its simply better to have your plan, and a way to fight through the hate, than it is to have no plan, and bring the hate.
Dredge is so tight. Same with Hollow One, G-Affinity, Infect, and so on. The decks are beautifully constructed.
I cannot say the same for something like UWR, that warped itself way too much with the inclusion of Terminus (imo) instead of just becoming UW, or Blue Moon, which is literally just a pile of Cantrips and Remand, hoping to land a Moon and lock someone out while they swing in with a Horror or Drake.
I dont know, I'm just looking at how some of these decks, which have been powerful examples of proactive synergy for years now, and are so resilient that they demand you answer them with hate, and even that may not be enough (Dredge, Tron, Hollow One) that I just wonder on if that is not the 'right' way to play Magic.
It would certainly appear to be, at the highest level of play.
EDIT: This isnt to say that the vaunted 'diversity' of Modern doesnt exist. It does. I have played and won with many different decks, heck a week or so ago I won with Goblins and Frenzy!
However if someone put a gun to our collective heads, and said 'pick 3 decks and you better not lose' I think the list of choices would be very very small.
Spirits
Removed the other quotes because the quote is getting big. Agreed on Hollow One... it's really consistent even if they have a random element in their deck. I think Hollow One is one of the things that caused the decline of Ponza a few months ago. They're simply faster than us, and Blood Moon almost has no effect.
Have to agree again, the diversity of modern does exist.
The random goblin deck or homebrew could still sometimes win.
it's just kidding inside spoiler
And cannot look at goblins the same way again after watching this. when I see a goblin deck on the opposite side of the table, I feel the need to kill all the little buggers with anger of the gods for all the atrocities that they did! --- just a JOKE OK. ^_____^
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Does this mean that any further ban out of the dredge deck, if it ever happens, would have to be another dredge card such as Stinkweed Imp? According to Wizards the dredge mechanic is always the real offender in that deck. Is this true? How do they know that the mechanic is the real offender, and not, say, the creatures that come out of the graveyard for free? Or draw effects such as Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. In legacy, Bazaar of Baghdad is banned but none of the dredge cards. They are admitting in that format that the draw power is more problematic than anything else in that archetype. Why are we not considering this may be also be the case in modern?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
From the GP/PT T8 perspective, Looting is actually a worse performer than SV. I wouldn't worry about it.
How would you cripple Dredge then? I have seen Looting bring the plague of one graveyard abusing deck after another seems if you want to weaken hese deck types taking out looting is a good target.
No, looting isnt the target.
If you wanted to cripple dredge, you hit Bloodghast. That is the card if Dredge/Hollow One/BridgeVince become an issue.
Spirits
I agree. I don't see Dredge as currently bannable. If something continues to prove that it is, like Golgari Grave-Troll did, then and only then should a ban be possible here.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Agreed. In my experience playing against all sorts of decks with bloodghast, the ghast being allowed to get through a few times.. the damage piles up. This vampire is a prime target for exiling when I see it.
Hmm, but no need to cripple dredge.. right now it's a competitive deck, not a broken deck.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Hitting Bloodghast also hits Hollow One.
Before Creeping Chill, did anyone even complain about Dredge? If Dredge is the problem, then just get rid of Creeping Chill. It doesnt hit any other deck, and doesnt even kill Dredge.
This is , of course, if the consensus is that Dredge is OP and needs a ban.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Bloodghast is the card that makes the recurring threat engine work, since it gives the deck an on demand way to bring back ALL of their threats back. It’s the primary card that makes standard, non-exiling removal a joke against the deck. Without it, it makes the entire Dredge mechanic a much less offensive modern, since a Narcomoeba hit the only thing that can put their grave back into play.
Creeping Chill just gives the deck another form of inevitability that cannot be interacted with and I doubt it would be a huge problem if the deck didn’t also have a highly reliable method of keeping the board pressure on.
Hmm what I find interesting here is that this clearly goes against all the people who seem to be down on BG midrange decks.
I believe this is because many people who hold that opinion place undue weight on the results of GP, which are probably the least representative events possible for the vast majority of players. The unique GP dynamics play out in deck selection and metagame bias. For instance, control and midrange decks where you try to answer everything are tough sells at GP; there are so many unknown players and decks and answers aren't that good. This is true in Standard, let alone Modern. But at a more local event with no more than 150ish players, you might personally know at least half of the field, or even more if there are fewer players. This makes it easier to tune a control and/or midrange deck to line up against threats.
This underscores the importance of not just using GP results, especially narrow American GP results, to determine global Modern metagame health. I'd also go so far as to say that GP ATL did not appear to adversely impact diversity at this circuit. People did not give those results as much weight as they could have. We'll see if that also happens at the RPTQ level in the coming weeks.
But no one cared about Dredge pre Creeping Chill. Creeping Chill put the deck into tier 1. Don't kill the entire deck. Don't hit other decks like Bridgevine and Hallow one because of Dredge. I understand Blooghast is the best card in the deck, but it should be Creeping Chill to be banned if anything
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Bazaar is really not a good card except in very specific decks like dredge. I think its at least similar to Faithless Looting because both are inherent card disadvantage yet power up graveyard based decks