MTG Salvation

No changes. Not surprised. Would have been happy with an unban, but Modern is in a pretty good spot at the moment, so no complaints.

Well I guess we'll have to put up with a few more months of grumbling about KCI and ancient stirrings decks in general. I always hate bans unless absolutely necessary so I'm ok with this. Would like unbans but I realise at this point wizards just uses it to either sell a new product or spice up the format for an upcoming PT.

Not surprised, but still a bit disappointed. I was really hoping for an unban of either Stoneforge Mystic or Birthing Pod. Besides being consistency tools, I don't think there is a powerlevel issue anymore at this point in Modern. Especially Birthing Pod is hosed so badly in the current meta that I doubt it could even be successful anymore.

Let's hope for October 1st.

hmm, this decision is fine too...

I guess WoTC wants to observe the format for a little longer before banning or unbanning anything.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

Please Wizards, just let these cards, that we ALL KNOW ARE FINE FREE!

The frustration I feel, when I 'get' to play against Game 1 natural Tron, Game 1 BridgeVine, Game 1 Hollow One, Game 1 KCI...and I cant even play Twin? Cannot even sleeve up SFM?

Just unreal. I will get to continue playing Blood Moons, Jace, and Thing in the Ice I guess.

Blue gets to own legacy, this balances it out lol.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

Blue gets to own legacy, this balances it out lol.

Please, my emotions are already raw...

Anyone else a little sad they aren't doing their blurbs on how they're monitoring the formats anymore? It was nice reading the B/R updates regardless of change or no change.

Also, played KCI and...uh... holy moly; Second Sunrise flashbacks anyone?

No changes. Womp womp.

Not like it wasn't horrendously predictable, but still fairly annoying given the tameness of several banned cards and inconsistency of allowing things like Ancient Stirrings. I guess they are literally just in a holding pattern until things get as bad as 2016 again, because high-variance chaos sells. That, or they are waiting to capitalize on reprint packs in order to unban something, ala Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

I can tell you that as my local store moves away from what it used to be (tons of Uxx and BGx) and more towards degenerate combo, artifact, and graveyard decks, I have less and less interest making these twice-a-week commitments.

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

Blue gets to own legacy, this balances it out lol.

A prohibitively-expensive format that nobody plays and can't even get 8 people to fire once a week with any regularity (never mind multiple times a week with 30+)? Sign me up...?

Quote from Solidbass2 »

Anyone else a little sad they aren't doing their blurbs on how they're monitoring the formats anymore? It was nice reading the B/R updates regardless of change or no change.

Also, played KCI and...uh... holy moly; Second Sunrise flashbacks anyone?

I tend to agree. It isn't so much a problem against a seasoned vet as it is someone playing it for the first month. Combo players take note: practice goldfishing your decks at home so that you have both the knowledge and dexterity to establish your win condition in a timely fashion.

It's outrageous to me that a small contingent of users in this thread (and the community overall: see Brad Nelson), as well as in the just-locked iteration of this thread, continue to talk about the format as if it is unhealthy, too linear, failing, broken, or some other unfounded criticism. I feel like this all started once those Day 1 Team PT numbers got posted and we never looked back. Or it's been continuing nonstop for years and it's more acute now in light of the Team PT numbers.

Wizards stated the format is healthy in B&R updates. T8s appear healthy week after week, especially on MTGO Challenges, MOCS, and PPTQ events, which are often a good indicator of things being broken. We have had no bans for over 1.5 years, which has been completely predictable if critics stop assuming there's a secret Wizards agenda with Modern and acknowledges the healthy metagame stats we see month after month. The current complaints about Humans, Bridgevine, Tron, etc. are no more founded today than the old complaints about GDS, Grishoalbrand, ETron, etc. were for past years. Ban mania has consistently been proven to be a losing and inaccurate position since January 2017. People need to stop endorsing these positions.

The sole exception to this is potentially Stirrings, but that is based on an auditable and objective dataset of GP and PT finishes. The data so far shows Stirrings decks are hugely outperforming other strategies at the level that matters most for banlist decisions. Tron alone is trending towards URx Twin levels, but it isnt there yet. I expect if either of these trends continue, we definitely could see action taken. But we need to be measured and cautious in those predictions, not regurgitating memes about T3 Karn. There is also a separate possible issue about KCI logistical problems, but I suspect those aren't real. If they were, Wizards would probably have that data by now and would act even with no PT coming up, just as they acted quickly during the Eggs issue.

Overall, the format is significantly more healthy than what many of the critics are assessing. There are top-tier strategies of all archetypes, including blue. You can win major events with dozens of viable options. No single deck, except maybe Gx Tron, is too dominant. Humans could also get there but it isnt there yet at all. Unless we see major shifts in the next few months, this wont change no matter how upset the vocal minority becomes.

Ah, SFM...one day. One day.

Still, the format isn’t in a bad place at all. As long as tier one decks (especially Stirrings decks) don’t pull much further away from the rest of the pack, we’re doing alright. Here’s hoping for some better (and uniquely Modern—no Force of Will importation necessary) answers being printed in the near future, because there’s still plenty of room to improve insofar as cultivating a more interactive, skill-testing, and popular format is concerned!

Quoted from a parallel thread:

Quote from purklefluff »

Unbans would be nice, no arguments from me at all. However, we don't *need* an unban.

I've been asking this question off and on for nearly 3 years, but under what circumstances SHOULD things be unbanned?

I ask this because nearly every time any unban suggestion pops up, no matter what it is, it is commonly met with "we don't need to unban anything."

What does that mean?

If the format is good, do we unban? If the format is bad, do we unban? If the format is stale, do we unban? Historically, unbans have only ever transpired alongside a massively huge, format-altering ban. The only real exceptions are Jace and BBE which, while not accompanying a Modern ban, did happen immediately after the second wave of unprecedented Standard bannings (and coincided with a reprint of one of the main cards).

We can all agree that there are a non-zero number of cards on the banned list that have no business being there. The specifics of what may vary person to person, but they are there. The only reason I could see as keeping them there is a "break glass in case of emergency" like they have in the past. A smoke and mirrors olive branch offering to draw attention away from some other massive failure. It's disappointing to see the banned list acting in this way.

As for bannings themselves, it's not like they made this atmosphere themselves by systematically banning the best decks in Modern every year, and then tore Standard to pieces with more bans than have ever been seen in such a short time. They create this hysteria because of their own actions. It's part of the reason I have made no attempt to buy into any other decks than what I already own for the past two years, because of how badly I've been burned by multiple past bans. It's also why I look terrifyingly as degenerate decks take over the format as dominant forces. Any of all of them could be banned at a moment's notice and be left a pile of draft chaff. Or they randomly get to continue on, with more lenience and leeway than most previous decks, because we're so blinded by how bad 2016 was. As long as decks aren't as bad as Eldrazi or Infect/DSZ, it's all gravy.

Would have enjoyed some unbans, but it's ok that there weren't any too. They'll come in time.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

It's outrageous to me that a small contingent of users in this thread (and the community overall: see Brad Nelson), as well as in the just-locked iteration of this thread, continue to talk about the format as if it is unhealthy, too linear, failing, broken, or some other unfounded criticism. I feel like this all started once those Day 1 Team PT numbers got posted and we never looked back. Or it's been continuing nonstop for years and it's more acute now in light of the Team PT numbers.

Over time I've come to realize a lot of people's complaints about Modern are, "Your deck does something that makes it hard for me to play my deck. So instead of accepting that the format has changed and my deck might no longer be good, I will instead complain about how the format is horrible, disgusting, degenerate, and these cards that make your deck possible need to be banned."

I've seen this multiple times. Every time some new deck pops up that makes it so people can't just pick up the exact same 75 they've been playing for 4 months we get the groans and moans about how Modern is "broken" or "degenerate" and that something needs to be banned to fix it. But it isn't. Modern is a non-rotating format yes, but the metagame is cyclical. What is a good deck today, might be a horrible deck tomorrow. Hell I have personal experience with this via Lantern Control. Before PT Rivals Lantern was in a good spot. You could do extremely well in Leagues or at tournaments, and the field wasn't overly hostile to you. Post PT Rivals things got a little more hostile, I mean the deck did win the PT, it's to be expected. But it ended up settling down a bit, but then KCI took off like a rocket, and all of the hate people have been packing for that deck has tangentially made Lantern almost unplayable right now. I'm sure we'll get to a point where the format calms down a bit and I can play my good ol' prison deck again, but until then I have adapted, and picked up a new deck. Now I get to throw V8's at people all day long.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

It's outrageous to me that a small contingent of users in this thread (and the community overall: see Brad Nelson), as well as in the just-locked iteration of this thread, continue to talk about the format as if it is unhealthy, too linear, failing, broken, or some other unfounded criticism. I feel like this all started once those Day 1 Team PT numbers got posted and we never looked back. Or it's been continuing nonstop for years and it's more acute now in light of the Team PT numbers.

Wizards stated the format is healthy in B&R updates. T8s appear healthy week after week, especially on MTGO Challenges, MOCS, and PPTQ events, which are often a good indicator of things being broken. We have had no bans for over 1.5 years, which has been completely predictable if critics stop assuming there's a secret Wizards agenda with Modern and acknowledges the healthy metagame stats we see month after month. The current complaints about Humans, Bridgevine, Tron, etc. are no more founded today than the old complaints about GDS, Grishoalbrand, ETron, etc. were for past years. Ban mania has consistently been proven to be a losing and inaccurate position since January 2017. People need to stop endorsing these positions.

The sole exception to this is potentially Stirrings, but that is based on an auditable and objective dataset of GP and PT finishes. The data so far shows Stirrings decks are hugely outperforming other strategies at the level that matters most for banlist decisions. Tron alone is trending towards URx Twin levels, but it isnt there yet. I expect if either of these trends continue, we definitely could see action taken. But we need to be measured and cautious in those predictions, not regurgitating memes about T3 Karn. There is also a separate possible issue about KCI logistical problems, but I suspect those aren't real. If they were, Wizards would probably have that data by now and would act even with no PT coming up, just as they acted quickly during the Eggs issue.

Overall, the format is significantly more healthy than what many of the critics are assessing. There are top-tier strategies of all archetypes, including blue. You can win major events with dozens of viable options. No single deck, except maybe Gx Tron, is too dominant. Humans could also get there but it isnt there yet at all. Unless we see major shifts in the next few months, this wont change no matter how upset the vocal minority becomes.

I'm not sure if I see things the same way when I read the thread. People in general often have wish lists that they keep tucked away, like myself wanting GSZ unbanned or others wanting Twin back. There are others that believe legitimately some cards really could be unbanned and not have a huge impact on the game, like SFM.

People are not making suggestions because the format is unhealthy: they are making suggestions because they think it could get even better. However, Maro recently tweeted something that everyone should keep in mind. That concept being that wizards R&D don't want to be shackled to the past. In effect, they are keeping some cards on the ban list because they put limitations on what R&D can do. It's like asking them to print less humans when they are the most prolific race in the multiverse just to keep humans from being too good.

The format will change post PPTQ Season, it was absolutely reasonable to see No Changes. The format may have philosophical issues, yet for quite sometime it does not have any logistical issues. Many posters on this forum need to understand there is a great discrepancy between these two topics. Just for iteration, here is my opinion for suggested long-term changes.

Unban;
Green Sun's Zenith
Stoneforge Mystic
Preordain
Ancient Den
Great Furnace
Tree of Tales
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers

Ban;
Simian Spirit Guide
Mox Opal

Even though there is a large debate around Chalice of the Void currently, I feel that is more of a Competitive REL issue than an issue with the card itself.

Quote from Colt47 »

In effect, they are keeping some cards on the ban list because they put limitations on what R&D can do.

It's a lazy and meaningless excuse to use this as a reason to ban (or keep banned) any card. Perhaps it would carry more weight if they don't print something that enables some other broken degenerate nonsense as often as they do.

Quote from Solidbass2 »

Anyone else a little sad they aren't doing their blurbs on how they're monitoring the formats anymore? It was nice reading the B/R updates regardless of change or no change.

Also, played KCI and...uh... holy moly; Second Sunrise flashbacks anyone?

They don't always do those, and when they do it's usually with a set release ban update rather than the mid point.

Quote from Colt47 »

However, Maro recently tweeted something that everyone should keep in mind. That concept being that wizards R&D don't want to be shackled to the past. In effect, they are keeping some cards on the ban list because they put limitations on what R&D can do. It's like asking them to print less humans when they are the most prolific race in the multiverse just to keep humans from being too good.

Link for this?

Quote from idSurge »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

Please Wizards, just let these cards, that we ALL KNOW ARE FINE FREE!

The frustration I feel, when I 'get' to play against Game 1 natural Tron, Game 1 BridgeVine, Game 1 Hollow One, Game 1 KCI...and I cant even play Twin? Cannot even sleeve up SFM?

Just unreal. I will get to continue playing Blood Moons, Jace, and Thing in the Ice I guess.

Not sure, but I heard from someone that there would be another possible unban / ban on October? So you just have to wait out a bit. ^___^
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Hollow One is actually fine.. the only problem is an early Burning Inquiry sometimes discards lands from my hand. And I've accepted Tron as a bad matchup for my BGx long ago, almost unwinnable - just keep smacking Karn with goyf until a wurmcoil joins the party.

Hollow One is fine...and so is SFM, and Twin. If I have to put up with absolutely filthy draws, then people should have to put up with Turn 4 Twin or a Batterskull swinging in.

EDIT: Dont mistake me as 'complaining' about Modern. I'm not. The issue is, Nature Turn 3 Tron? Thats garbage. Turn 1/2 with multiple Hollow Ones/Vengevines? garbage. Turn 2 Infect kill? Filth.

And I love it all, even if I absolutely hate Tron as a deck, I welcome its presence.

Simply give me back Twin.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from Colt47 »

In effect, they are keeping some cards on the ban list because they put limitations on what R&D can do.

It's a lazy and meaningless excuse to use this as a reason to ban (or keep banned) any card. Perhaps it would carry more weight if they don't print something that enables some other broken degenerate nonsense as often as they do.

Agree they say that but guess what there hasn’t been a good equipment (even in standard much less modern) printed in what like 10 years lol. That’s just a lazy excuse to keep a card like sfm banned. There will be another non rotating format sooner than later so idk why people so desperately think r&d would be hampered by anything considering they regularly break standard and modern with all the “testing/keeping it in mind” so just unban things and in the off chance down the road you create another eldrazi winter (very rare) deal with it then imo.

Quote from idSurge »

Hollow One is fine...and so is SFM, and Twin. If I have to put up with absolutely filthy draws, then people should have to put up with Turn 4 Twin or a Batterskull swinging in.

EDIT: Dont mistake me as 'complaining' about Modern. I'm not. The issue is, Nature Turn 3 Tron? Thats garbage. Turn 1/2 with multiple Hollow Ones/Vengevines? garbage. Turn 2 Infect kill? Filth.

And I love it all, even if I absolutely hate Tron as a deck, I welcome its presence.

Simply give me back Twin.

I agree that SFM is fine, but I think that decks like Bridgevine, Hollow One, and KCI, are good reasons as to why Twin should stay out of the meta right now. Twin on its own doesn't do anything broken, but it's very much a prepare for it or lose to it type of deck. That means Twin reentering the meta would just increase the sideboard lottery issue in the format.