Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
They're saving Stoneforge Mystic to shake up the Pro Tour or to coincide with a Master's Set reprint. There is really no excuse to stay on the banned list otherwise. Never mind the other targets that don't belong.
But hey, at least we didn't see our $5,000 decks gutted and destroyed like Legacy Delver and others.
Changes would have been cool, but no changes was cool too. This is especially true given those top 8s from this last weekend and UWs meta correction. Viva modern.
Excited to see how Legacy shakes out after those monstrous bans. Lackey is back baby!
They're saving Stoneforge Mystic to shake up the Pro Tour or to coincide with a Master's Set reprint. There is really no excuse to stay on the banned list otherwise. Never mind the other targets that don't belong.
But hey, at least we didn't see our $5,000 decks gutted and destroyed like Legacy Delver and others.
This sounds right to me. I'll be predicting no unban changes for a while. Bans might still happen if we have sustained periods of an unhealthy metagame. We're not there now though, and GP Bar paints an even healthier picture. If Wizards considers Modern healthy, I imagine the only card even remotely on a watch list would be Stirrings (if anything), and the bar is way higher than where we are now. All in all, great update and excited they even had a Modern shout out at all.
Yeah, even if it is absolutely what I expected, it is an extremely disappointing announcement. Completely sucked all the excitement out of the prerelease for me.
Let's face it. We all know SFM will do next to nothing if ever unbanned. They couldn't risk unbanning it without an immediate reprint because by the time it was actually reprinted, all the hype would've died down and there would not be nearly as much (artificial) hype for whatever set they put her in.
@Aazadan made a point near the end of the last thread about unbans likely being pre-planned; probably from far out. i would agree.
unbans, at least the ones that seem reasonable, are a limited resource. wizards simply gains more and loses little if they wait for an appropriate time. i theorized a while back that they are probably going to do unbans on a yearly cycle following the modern pro-tour; i still think this is the case.
one thing we know for certain now is that wizards actively takes snapshots of win percentages (probably along with other stats) periodically and monitors them to see if they align with various community complaints.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm fervently wishing that everyone is right and that SFM continued banning is foretelling a return of Modern Master sets. I really don't mind Wizards making unban-related money off a new MM set as long as there IS a new MM set coming up. Fingers crossed.
The cynic in me says they posted that standard data as a 'no look it's not all Rx Aggro, play more decks!'
Perception of Standard being healthy is too important.
We also got more insight into what they mean by matchups:
DRS: "When the most popular deck in an environment is also among the most winning decks with a win rate significantly above 50% over a long period of time, we investigate."
Standard Red: "While mono-red and black-red decks are the most popular decks on Magic Online, their win rates are in a normal and healthy range. Throughout the past several weeks, Mono-Red had a 49.9% (non-mirror-match) win rate and black-red had a 51–52% win rate (depending on the variant). "
So at least the argument of Twin having "too many 50/50 matchups" is finally put to rest. This is patently OK. And it only becomes a problem IF A) it is the most winning deck overall, and B) the win rate is "significantly above" 50%, and C) it holds that for a "long period of time." Which was certainly never the case; not like that matters today...
Very disappointed, too. The statement basically reads: Several other formats are more messed up than Modern, so we'll focus on those and do nothing about Modern.
The cynic in me says they posted that standard data as a 'no look it's not all Rx Aggro, play more decks!'
Perception of Standard being healthy is too important.
We also got more insight into what they mean by matchups:
DRS: "When the most popular deck in an environment is also among the most winning decks with a win rate significantly above 50% over a long period of time, we investigate."
Standard Red: "While mono-red and black-red decks are the most popular decks on Magic Online, their win rates are in a normal and healthy range. Throughout the past several weeks, Mono-Red had a 49.9% (non-mirror-match) win rate and black-red had a 51–52% win rate (depending on the variant). "
So at least the argument of Twin having "too many 50/50 matchups" is finally put to rest. This is patently OK. And it only becomes a problem IF A) it is the most winning deck overall, and B) the win rate is "significantly above" 50%, and C) it holds that for a "long period of time." Which was certainly never the case; not like that matters today...
All good things we know now, with the obligatory reminder that Wizards is allowed to have an evolving attitude towards bans/unbans over time, and what they use as criteria now might not have been how they formulated analyses in the past. We can't assume these statements have always held true, but in the foreseeable future we can use them to anticipate Wizards' actions (taking into consideration that we do not have the data they do).
Having a win % at 50% for non mirror matches isn't exactly the same thing as being 50% vs most of the field. They could still have 30-70 and 70-30 matches that just happen to even out. Also, if a deck truly did have too many 50/50 matches, it would probably have a win% significantly above 50%, or would be the most winning deck overall.
Not disagreeing with your overall sentiment, just pointing out they aren't exactly the same thing.
All good things we know now, with the obligatory reminder that Wizards is allowed to have an evolving attitude towards bans/unbans over time, and what they use as criteria now might not have been how they formulated analyses in the past. We can't assume these statements have always held true, but in the foreseeable future we can use them to anticipate Wizards' actions (taking into consideration that we do not have the data they do).
The issue with "evolving viewpoints" is when that doesn't translate to timely unbans for things that have no business being there. Honestly, Twin aside, it's embarrassing that they feel Stoneforge Mystic should remain banned. Their lack of any reasoning or acknowledgement shows that it continues to show the "we do what we want, when we want, and why we want" theme when it comes to bans and unbans, regardless of consistency with previous actions or "safeness" of unbans.
All good things we know now, with the obligatory reminder that Wizards is allowed to have an evolving attitude towards bans/unbans over time, and what they use as criteria now might not have been how they formulated analyses in the past. We can't assume these statements have always held true, but in the foreseeable future we can use them to anticipate Wizards' actions (taking into consideration that we do not have the data they do).
The issue with "evolving viewpoints" is when that doesn't translate to timely unbans for things that have no business being there. Honestly, Twin aside, it's embarrassing that they feel Stoneforge Mystic should remain banned. Their lack of any reasoning or acknowledgement shows that it continues to show the "we do what we want, when we want, and why we want" theme when it comes to bans and unbans, regardless of consistency with previous actions or "safeness" of unbans.
I mean, the biggest (most recent) example of an unban is JtMS, which happened right as it was being reprinted. That was a way for Wizards to make a lot more money off that set, and as a business, I can't fault them. They did something positive for the format and profited because there was an opportunity for them to. If we expect to see this happen again, they might be planning to unban when they can capitalize on it. As was discussed in the last thread, there is no nearby opportunity to reprint SFM, thus no real monetary incentive for them to do anything in a meta they clearly see as fine.
Having a win % at 50% for non mirror matches isn't exactly the same thing as being 50% vs most of the field. They could still have 30-70 and 70-30 matches that just happen to even out. Also, if a deck truly did have too many 50/50 matches, it would probably have a win% significantly above 50%, or would be the most winning deck overall.
Not disagreeing with your overall sentiment, just pointing out they aren't exactly the same thing.
Unfortunately we'll never know because us simpleton plebs will never see the data to support it. We just get curated and packaged numbers with cryptic accompanying text.
Their reasoning behind no unbans is that the format is currently in a cyclical healthy metagame cycle. Yes, Stoneforge (and a few other cards) are 'safe' to come off, but if their goal in the management of the banlist is to make sure that they've curated a healthy and vibrant format then why would they do that right now? We'll get it eventually.
Greetings, I am new to these forums so forgive me if i do something wrong here.
I'm fairly surprised nothing was said about stirrings. There's been talk about it for a while and when KCI started to gain traction I figured it would push the ban. It's not like it's an oppressing card in any way but it does allow for more consistency in early turn win decks like tron and KCI.
Also disappointed about no preordain or ponder unban by the logic of them keeping stirrings in.
They probably would not like to mess with more than 1 format right before a Pro Tour. Legacy alone will already be a big mess after these bannings, making changes in Modern would be too much for ppl who are already preparing and finding decks to play.
Maybe SFM will be unbanned after the PT, on the next list.
So much for Stoneforge unban, people looking pretty stupid right now if they bought in at the current price. It could 100% of slotted into modern now but the cynical side of me sees it has only had 1 printing before and would be a perfect sell for a product if it were unbanned as it was announced to get a reprint.
Legacy seems like the far juicer update. Those 2 bans are going to turn the format on its head completely. I wonder if that is the end of storm as a tier 1 deck.
Their reasoning behind no unbans is that the format is currently in a cyclical healthy metagame cycle. Yes, Stoneforge (and a few other cards) are 'safe' to come off, but if their goal in the management of the banlist is to make sure that they've curated a healthy and vibrant format then why would they do that right now? We'll get it eventually.
If that were the case, they should have unbanned quite a few more things since 2016... Because the format was trash for 2 years and mostly ignored (because Standard was on fire). And I'm sure we were mostly ignored again this time because Standard has the perception of being on fire, while "every" Legacy deck is playing 4 Probes and 4 DRS.
For sure though, they're saving this unban to shake up the PT (before or after) or to coincide with a Masters set reprint. I have zero doubts of this.
They actually used to mention when cards were being watched, but that just caused undue stress for pilots of those decks, and they went back to just telling us the end results. If they had talked about keeping an eye on Stirrings, it would cause artificial upheaval in usage. They are at a happy place; they said as much.
but the cynical side of me sees it [SFM] has only had 1 printing before and would be a perfect sell for a product if it were unbanned as it was announced to get a reprint.
It doesn't take a cynical view to see this is what is happening; it is slapping us all in the face. If they unbanned it now with the goal of reprinting it next year, they risk it flopping in the format and their big ticket reprint being a card no one cares about.
I honestly don't blame them from a business perspective; it is clearly the right thing to do. But as a player it is ridiculously frustrating to beg for a SFM unban for 3 years, finally have nearly the entire community agree, and still have it not matter one bit.
Their reasoning behind no unbans is that the format is currently in a cyclical healthy metagame cycle. Yes, Stoneforge (and a few other cards) are 'safe' to come off, but if their goal in the management of the banlist is to make sure that they've curated a healthy and vibrant format then why would they do that right now? We'll get it eventually.
If that were the case, they should have unbanned quite a few more things since 2016... Because the format was trash for 2 years and mostly ignored (because Standard was on fire). And I'm sure we were mostly ignored again this time because Standard has the perception of being on fire, while "every" Legacy deck is playing 4 Probes and 4 DRS.
For sure though, they're saving this unban to shake up the PT (before or after) or to coincide with a Masters set reprint. I have zero doubts of this.
I don't disagree with any of that - but I also don't think there is anything wrong with the format right now.
Saving the unbans for either of the two things you mentioned is largely good for the format. Hype sells packs, ups viewership counts, and puts butts in seats. Wizards wants all of those things, and we as players of this format should want all of those things as well.
With that - yes, they've let the format just stew in it's own crap before, hopefully we're past that era of banlist management.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Death to false Value.
GW
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Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the July 2, 2018 B&R Announcement:
No Changes
Next B&R Announcement:
August 20, 2018
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
04/16/2018 - 07/02/2018
02/10/2018 - 04/16/2018
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
But hey, at least we didn't see our $5,000 decks gutted and destroyed like Legacy Delver and others.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Excited to see how Legacy shakes out after those monstrous bans. Lackey is back baby!
This sounds right to me. I'll be predicting no unban changes for a while. Bans might still happen if we have sustained periods of an unhealthy metagame. We're not there now though, and GP Bar paints an even healthier picture. If Wizards considers Modern healthy, I imagine the only card even remotely on a watch list would be Stirrings (if anything), and the bar is way higher than where we are now. All in all, great update and excited they even had a Modern shout out at all.
I do want to see if cawblade has any legs in modern myself and look forward to the inevitable unban
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I tweeted to Blake I think it was about how they need a set to push so they held on to SFM, but come on. At least give us a bone with Preordain.
Spirits
Let's face it. We all know SFM will do next to nothing if ever unbanned. They couldn't risk unbanning it without an immediate reprint because by the time it was actually reprinted, all the hype would've died down and there would not be nearly as much (artificial) hype for whatever set they put her in.
unbans, at least the ones that seem reasonable, are a limited resource. wizards simply gains more and loses little if they wait for an appropriate time. i theorized a while back that they are probably going to do unbans on a yearly cycle following the modern pro-tour; i still think this is the case.
one thing we know for certain now is that wizards actively takes snapshots of win percentages (probably along with other stats) periodically and monitors them to see if they align with various community complaints.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Perception of Standard being healthy is too important.
Spirits
I'm fervently wishing that everyone is right and that SFM continued banning is foretelling a return of Modern Master sets. I really don't mind Wizards making unban-related money off a new MM set as long as there IS a new MM set coming up. Fingers crossed.
We also got more insight into what they mean by matchups:
DRS: "When the most popular deck in an environment is also among the most winning decks with a win rate significantly above 50% over a long period of time, we investigate."
Standard Red: "While mono-red and black-red decks are the most popular decks on Magic Online, their win rates are in a normal and healthy range. Throughout the past several weeks, Mono-Red had a 49.9% (non-mirror-match) win rate and black-red had a 51–52% win rate (depending on the variant). "
So at least the argument of Twin having "too many 50/50 matchups" is finally put to rest. This is patently OK. And it only becomes a problem IF A) it is the most winning deck overall, and B) the win rate is "significantly above" 50%, and C) it holds that for a "long period of time." Which was certainly never the case; not like that matters today...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
All good things we know now, with the obligatory reminder that Wizards is allowed to have an evolving attitude towards bans/unbans over time, and what they use as criteria now might not have been how they formulated analyses in the past. We can't assume these statements have always held true, but in the foreseeable future we can use them to anticipate Wizards' actions (taking into consideration that we do not have the data they do).
Not disagreeing with your overall sentiment, just pointing out they aren't exactly the same thing.
The issue with "evolving viewpoints" is when that doesn't translate to timely unbans for things that have no business being there. Honestly, Twin aside, it's embarrassing that they feel Stoneforge Mystic should remain banned. Their lack of any reasoning or acknowledgement shows that it continues to show the "we do what we want, when we want, and why we want" theme when it comes to bans and unbans, regardless of consistency with previous actions or "safeness" of unbans.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I mean, the biggest (most recent) example of an unban is JtMS, which happened right as it was being reprinted. That was a way for Wizards to make a lot more money off that set, and as a business, I can't fault them. They did something positive for the format and profited because there was an opportunity for them to. If we expect to see this happen again, they might be planning to unban when they can capitalize on it. As was discussed in the last thread, there is no nearby opportunity to reprint SFM, thus no real monetary incentive for them to do anything in a meta they clearly see as fine.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm fairly surprised nothing was said about stirrings. There's been talk about it for a while and when KCI started to gain traction I figured it would push the ban. It's not like it's an oppressing card in any way but it does allow for more consistency in early turn win decks like tron and KCI.
Also disappointed about no preordain or ponder unban by the logic of them keeping stirrings in.
Maybe SFM will be unbanned after the PT, on the next list.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Legacy seems like the far juicer update. Those 2 bans are going to turn the format on its head completely. I wonder if that is the end of storm as a tier 1 deck.
If that were the case, they should have unbanned quite a few more things since 2016... Because the format was trash for 2 years and mostly ignored (because Standard was on fire). And I'm sure we were mostly ignored again this time because Standard has the perception of being on fire, while "every" Legacy deck is playing 4 Probes and 4 DRS.
For sure though, they're saving this unban to shake up the PT (before or after) or to coincide with a Masters set reprint. I have zero doubts of this.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It doesn't take a cynical view to see this is what is happening; it is slapping us all in the face. If they unbanned it now with the goal of reprinting it next year, they risk it flopping in the format and their big ticket reprint being a card no one cares about.
I honestly don't blame them from a business perspective; it is clearly the right thing to do. But as a player it is ridiculously frustrating to beg for a SFM unban for 3 years, finally have nearly the entire community agree, and still have it not matter one bit.
I don't disagree with any of that - but I also don't think there is anything wrong with the format right now.
Saving the unbans for either of the two things you mentioned is largely good for the format. Hype sells packs, ups viewership counts, and puts butts in seats. Wizards wants all of those things, and we as players of this format should want all of those things as well.
With that - yes, they've let the format just stew in it's own crap before, hopefully we're past that era of banlist management.