The only players that actually have drive in terms of viewership are ones who specialize in a specific deck and are watches as a means to view mastery of such a deck. I would watch Reid Duke play Jund or Caleb Sherer play Storm over just about any random "pro" who hops from deck to deck.
Skitzafreak, did you read my topic in the general forum about pro play? Supply and demand rules here. Pros shouldn't get paid to appear, because none of them draw enough eyeballs to justify it. There's a reason none of these guys are sponsored by red bull, verizon, pizza hut, budweiser, or nintendo.
This is a false equivalence fallacy. You cannot state as a fact that these players do not draw enough eyeballs when Wizards does nothing to promote them. And as for sponsorships, you do realize a lot of the Platinum level Pros are sponsored right? Sure it might not be Red Bull, or Verizon, but why the f%ck do we care about those sponsorships anyway? They don't matter to people who play Magic in the first place. Ultra Pro, Ultimate Guard, Dex Protection, you know companies that make products that Magic players use actively sponsor teams and players and it is where I am sure they get a bulk of their money from (if there are any random Gold or Plat Pros that are sponsored reading these, feel free to chime in to confirm or deny my claim here).
Then there is the fact that Wizards wants the PT to be a sole promotion for just Magic. They don't want to share the spotlight with Pizza Hut. They want people just thinking about Magic. That's why there's no sponsors, Wizards doesn't want to share the limelight.
Not enough people care about any particular individual pro or team. If Gabriel Nassif never played Magic again, there would be no change in viewer count. If the entire team cfb retired, there would be no change in viewer count. The fact that four guys can say "hey everybody we're trying another game over here!" and bring eyeballs is proof enough. You get what you deserve, and pros deserve very little. Side note, I found it great that the finals were a hearthstone pro pairing. It's always nice to remind the world that these few dozen MtG people aren't much better than any of us. They just catch breaks (the bye system at GPs is awful).
Again, this is all false equivalence. You can't state with certainty that player's wouldn't care about Pro players leaving. Because there are people that don't know pr players exist, because Wizards doesn't tell people about Pro players! If you go on League of Legends you see the pro players. In the dashboard you see the teams. Riot throws the players in your face because the company understands their importance. And by broadcasting them, we get to enjoy them being there. Pro players are only 'disposable' because Wizards wants them to be disposable. The rest of your comment just sounds like someone who is pissed off he isn't better at Magic, so I'm not even gonna touch that.
You want bigger payouts at events? So do I. Eliminating appearance fees for pro players, not paying for travel or lodging for e-celebs who don't draw, that turns into bigger payouts that are actually earned that weekend by winning. It means you or I have a shot at the cash. WOTC could, and should, sell promo tokens or lands to help fund bigger payouts, too. I'd buy half a dozen foil islands with classic artwork (or brand new, if it's good) if I knew the profit margin was being redirected to pro play.
Why are you advocating for not appear fees for tournaments? Do you just want to Magic competitive scene to just be people only going to a GP whne it's in their home town? What incentive is there for people to grind GPs and event every year to try and make Gold and Platinum if there isn't at least that (completely embarrassing) income at the end to tell them, "hey good job". What you are suggesting would literally kill the Magic Pro circuit. And maybe that's what you want, and I legitimately don't understand why.
Though I do agree with your point on Wizards could back-end funding for premier level events with premier level cards that can be purchased at only GPs or something. Instead of a booster pack of cards you can just buy a premier GP promo for X Dollars. That would be cool.
What incentive? Higher prize payouts. Duh. But the profitability is in winning plus personal marketing. We're getting away from the topic of "the meta," but I think this stuff matters too. Pro gamers rarely just profit on prize money alone. They get sponsorships, they stream live to huge audiences. I'd argue there is no MtG pro who knows how to brand his or her self properly. If the pros want more money, then they can try to market themselves. This is the social media era. Add some personality, some showmanship, and personal branding on top of skilled play, and people will click to watch.
What incentive? Higher prize payouts. Duh. But the profitability is in winning plus personal marketing. We're getting away from the topic of "the meta," but I think this stuff matters too. Pro gamers rarely just profit on prize money alone. They get sponsorships, they stream live to huge audiences. I'd argue there is no MtG pro who knows how to brand his or her self properly. If the pros want more money, then they can try to market themselves. This is the social media era. Add some personality, some showmanship, and personal branding on top of skilled play, and people will click to watch.
I agree with everything you've said but I do think there are a few who have a 'brand' that is followed. Kenji, Hoogland, Caleb D and LSV all have a fairly large following based on their personalities more than their deck choices. They're a rarity, but we are definitely starting to see Magic pros properly brand and market themselves.
Magic has definitely been around a lot longer so keep that in mind. With that said though, these numbers certainly aren't small.
The problem with Hearthstone is that the random elements of the game make it hard for players to consistently do well. Some people just lose tournaments literally because of die rolls. With that in mind, the fact that Pavel has won enough to put himself in 21st place if we place him on the MTG money leaders board is....just wow.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
The only players that actually have drive in terms of viewership are ones who specialize in a specific deck and are watches as a means to view mastery of such a deck. I would watch Reid Duke play Jund or Caleb Sherer play Storm over just about any random "pro" who hops from deck to deck.
That's something I've observed from Legacy and Modern players on this forum for quite some time. It's sort of why I view standard as more of the brewer format and modern as more of the fine tuning format, since all aspects of modern encourage fine tuning rather than inventing. If someone invents something in modern it usually causes a mix of awe and unease as the meta shifts around it and people have decks get invalidated by whatever new GP scene emerges.
Standard and other games with lower price ceilings on decks usually love big changes. That's actually why standard is just dying at the moment, since the game got dominated by a few really strong cards and no one can really build creative decks to win with.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Magic has definitely been around a lot longer so keep that in mind. With that said though, these numbers certainly aren't small.
The problem with Hearthstone is that the random elements of the game make it hard for players to consistently do well. Some people just lose tournaments literally because of die rolls. With that in mind, the fact that Pavel has won enough to put himself in 21st place if we place him on the MTG money leaders board is....just wow.
I think it's best not to talk about the "random Element" comparison, because part of the reason hearthstone seems less reliable on wins is because a lot of people cheat at the major MTG tournaments. It's gotten a little better from what I've heard, but there have been too many cases of cheating to make me feel comfortable in pushing a comparison and calling it accurate.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yup, digital only card games aren't subject to shuffling tricks, trying to play an extra land, adding cards from home to your sealed pool, or moving a card from one zone to another. There's no attempts to rules-lawyer your way to a win, and no way to cheat then tell the judge "oh I didn't know it was exiled."
Yup, digital only card games aren't subject to shuffling tricks, trying to play an extra land, adding cards from home to your sealed pool, or moving a card from one zone to another. There's no attempts to rules-lawyer your way to a win, and no way to cheat then tell the judge "oh I didn't know it was exiled."
Couple that with lack of prize support and worthwhile pay and it becomes a survival of the fittest situation. Wizards appears to believe that people will travel long distances and play at these events out of pocket, and a few people still do, but they can't grow the professional scene by not investing in the professional scene. The most they did was bring back modern and legacy as part of team trio. My guess is that they are having trouble sustaining any kind of paper tournament and are being forced to depend a lot on third parties for catering and prize support.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
DRS should never get unbanned. It looks fine on the surface until you realize the format has a lot of fetches and ways to fuel the graveyard early.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Seconding that DRS should never be unbanned. As a former Legacy player... I've seen firsthand the power of that card. Even in legacy the shaman is also banned now.
1. DRS kills all gy-based decks, stifles many aggro decks, and acts as a 1-mana wincon in midrange and control mirrors. Games where it doesn't nuke the opposing strategy turn into "who kept their DRS out longest wins."
2. Mental Mistep would go into every single deck. Every single one. And then games again devolve into who got their turn 1 play to actually work.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
I dunno much about how GSZ or pod would work, but considering that people generally dislike combo decks, I doubt adding more combos would improve things.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
Yeah, I dont see either of these, in a world of 'we love creatures' coming back. I play Through the Breach Blue Moon, and that 5 mana vs 4 is VERY relevant. Twin would push down on humans, big time.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
Yeah, I dont see either of these, in a world of 'we love creatures' coming back. I play Through the Breach Blue Moon, and that 5 mana vs 4 is VERY relevant. Twin would push down on humans, big time.
But does humans NEED to be pushed down? That deck clearly sets the bar, but it also is the reason why we have mardu midrange and UWx control as highly viable options.
DRS should never get unbanned. It looks fine on the surface until you realize the format has a lot of fetches and ways to fuel the graveyard early.
DRS's biggest crime is it's hybrid mana cost. An efficient mana dork is something that would be completely fair in green, and even balanced with an off color activation for damage dealing. All too often though, DRS is cost off of black mana, and the aggressive activation is no longer off color but on color.
When you run DRS, black is the primary color while green is the splash color. It's completely backwards to what should be the case for a mana acceleration creature.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
Yeah, I dont see either of these, in a world of 'we love creatures' coming back. I play Through the Breach Blue Moon, and that 5 mana vs 4 is VERY relevant. Twin would push down on humans, big time.
But does humans NEED to be pushed down? That deck clearly sets the bar, but it also is the reason why we have mardu midrange and UWx control as highly viable options.
No, but I'm of the opinion that neither did Twin.
My biased view, is yes, humans gets too much and consumes too much %.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
Yeah, I dont see either of these, in a world of 'we love creatures' coming back. I play Through the Breach Blue Moon, and that 5 mana vs 4 is VERY relevant. Twin would push down on humans, big time.
But does humans NEED to be pushed down? That deck clearly sets the bar, but it also is the reason why we have mardu midrange and UWx control as highly viable options.
No, but I'm of the opinion that neither did Twin.
My biased view, is yes, humans gets too much and consumes too much %.
Let's remember that when Twin got banned it comprised 18.75% of GP and PT T8s in the previous year before banning. Humans is currently at 8% and that's if you count the flawed Team PT results. Otherwise it's at 6%ish. These are not dominant numbers by any stretch.
We only just got rid of DRS from Legacy, the wordl is a better place without it. A format with fetch plus brainstorm tech, with all the blue cantrips. It is that broken. It might be marginally less broken in modern, thanks in part to greater removal. But it is a mana dork, life gain, and win con and a graveyard hoser, in black. And green. For one mana. And a 1/2. I remember Modern fondly from when all those cards like Pod et al were in. The format was more fun for me, but not really any less flawed, and certainly I don't want them back again. From the finance side unbannings represent great opportunities to make money speculation wise, but if you don't like Modern now, you would not like it with DRS et al unbanned.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Militia bugler means the deck is going to reach dangerous top 8 levels though.
That is very unlikely.
Regardless, it was an excellent addition to an already top tier deck. Now they don't have to cut precious Humans for Collected Company, because now their CoCo comes on a Human body.
Militia bugler means the deck is going to reach dangerous top 8 levels though.
That is very unlikely.
Regardless, it was an excellent addition to an already top tier deck. Now they don't have to cut precious Humans for Collected Company, because now their CoCo comes on a Human body.
Ah MODERN WOTC DESIGN...modern as in recent not the format. The Best Spells come equipped to Creatures and Walkers.
Yep, I know. Based on their day 1 or day 2 % they should do better, but it's weak to unfair things, and probably Tron.
It's not a ban target, but it is a good sized piece of the meta.
Militia bugler means the deck is going to reach dangerous top 8 levels though.
Let's wait and see some actual GP results. Many in this thread have called for bans of top decks for literally 1.5+ years and they have been resoundingly proven wrong at every update so far. Let's talk again after a few more GP and see where stand. Modern Challenges/MOCS/PPTQ events all look quite healthy.
Even people who play humans have been saying that Bugler is good, but the decklist is so tight that you sacrifice some matchups for others. Yeah, Militia Bugler makes Mardu and Jeskai goodstuff decks easier to face, but if you cut reflector mage the grixis shadow matchup suffers. If you cut 3mana Thalia your tron matchup suffers. Plus it doesn't get mantis rider, which really matters because that is often the card that lets them turn the corner.
Unrelated note: I just watched a video on how KCI wins. It took seven minutes, and that's without discussing anything else it does to lead up to the combo like proper spell sequencing, tutor selection or dealing with hate cards. That is ridiculous.
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UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
What incentive? Higher prize payouts. Duh. But the profitability is in winning plus personal marketing. We're getting away from the topic of "the meta," but I think this stuff matters too. Pro gamers rarely just profit on prize money alone. They get sponsorships, they stream live to huge audiences. I'd argue there is no MtG pro who knows how to brand his or her self properly. If the pros want more money, then they can try to market themselves. This is the social media era. Add some personality, some showmanship, and personal branding on top of skilled play, and people will click to watch.
I agree with everything you've said but I do think there are a few who have a 'brand' that is followed. Kenji, Hoogland, Caleb D and LSV all have a fairly large following based on their personalities more than their deck choices. They're a rarity, but we are definitely starting to see Magic pros properly brand and market themselves.
Here's a start: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/328-hearthstone
For Hearthstone being astronomically larger (competitively) than magic, Pro tours don't look too bad by comparison.
Some more info-
Hearthstone top paid pro - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Beltiukov
Magic top all-time earnings list - https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/top-players/statistics/top-200-money-leaders
Magic has definitely been around a lot longer so keep that in mind. With that said though, these numbers certainly aren't small.
The problem with Hearthstone is that the random elements of the game make it hard for players to consistently do well. Some people just lose tournaments literally because of die rolls. With that in mind, the fact that Pavel has won enough to put himself in 21st place if we place him on the MTG money leaders board is....just wow.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That's something I've observed from Legacy and Modern players on this forum for quite some time. It's sort of why I view standard as more of the brewer format and modern as more of the fine tuning format, since all aspects of modern encourage fine tuning rather than inventing. If someone invents something in modern it usually causes a mix of awe and unease as the meta shifts around it and people have decks get invalidated by whatever new GP scene emerges.
Standard and other games with lower price ceilings on decks usually love big changes. That's actually why standard is just dying at the moment, since the game got dominated by a few really strong cards and no one can really build creative decks to win with.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it's best not to talk about the "random Element" comparison, because part of the reason hearthstone seems less reliable on wins is because a lot of people cheat at the major MTG tournaments. It's gotten a little better from what I've heard, but there have been too many cases of cheating to make me feel comfortable in pushing a comparison and calling it accurate.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Couple that with lack of prize support and worthwhile pay and it becomes a survival of the fittest situation. Wizards appears to believe that people will travel long distances and play at these events out of pocket, and a few people still do, but they can't grow the professional scene by not investing in the professional scene. The most they did was bring back modern and legacy as part of team trio. My guess is that they are having trouble sustaining any kind of paper tournament and are being forced to depend a lot on third parties for catering and prize support.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
2. Mental Mistep would go into every single deck. Every single one. And then games again devolve into who got their turn 1 play to actually work.
3. Punishing Fire doesn't just kill DRS and turn 1 dryad arbors. It also takes every small-creature aggro and kills them, too.
4. Twin's not coming back. At this point I still think WOTC is just ignoring its existence pre or post banning.
I dunno much about how GSZ or pod would work, but considering that people generally dislike combo decks, I doubt adding more combos would improve things.
Yeah, I dont see either of these, in a world of 'we love creatures' coming back. I play Through the Breach Blue Moon, and that 5 mana vs 4 is VERY relevant. Twin would push down on humans, big time.
Spirits
But does humans NEED to be pushed down? That deck clearly sets the bar, but it also is the reason why we have mardu midrange and UWx control as highly viable options.
DRS's biggest crime is it's hybrid mana cost. An efficient mana dork is something that would be completely fair in green, and even balanced with an off color activation for damage dealing. All too often though, DRS is cost off of black mana, and the aggressive activation is no longer off color but on color.
When you run DRS, black is the primary color while green is the splash color. It's completely backwards to what should be the case for a mana acceleration creature.
No, but I'm of the opinion that neither did Twin.
My biased view, is yes, humans gets too much and consumes too much %.
Spirits
Let's remember that when Twin got banned it comprised 18.75% of GP and PT T8s in the previous year before banning. Humans is currently at 8% and that's if you count the flawed Team PT results. Otherwise it's at 6%ish. These are not dominant numbers by any stretch.
It's not a ban target, but it is a good sized piece of the meta.
Spirits
That is very unlikely.
Regardless, it was an excellent addition to an already top tier deck. Now they don't have to cut precious Humans for Collected Company, because now their CoCo comes on a Human body.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Ah MODERN WOTC DESIGN...modern as in recent not the format. The Best Spells come equipped to Creatures and Walkers.
Let's wait and see some actual GP results. Many in this thread have called for bans of top decks for literally 1.5+ years and they have been resoundingly proven wrong at every update so far. Let's talk again after a few more GP and see where stand. Modern Challenges/MOCS/PPTQ events all look quite healthy.
Unrelated note: I just watched a video on how KCI wins. It took seven minutes, and that's without discussing anything else it does to lead up to the combo like proper spell sequencing, tutor selection or dealing with hate cards. That is ridiculous.