The problem with doing a cycle of straight-to-Modern cards in MM4 is they need to walk a razor-thin line. They need to make cards that are too strong for Standard, but not too strong for Modern. If they fall to the level of Standard-playable, the question is why didn't they just do this in Standard? If it's overly powerful, it just gets banned. If it's a set of cards that don't have a home in Modern, people ask what the point was.
To add onto all of this, MaRo has always said that it is incorrect to do something just because it hasn't been done before. Unless there is a very good reason to mainline cards to Modern, does throwing new cards in MM4 accomplish anything other than letting Wizards say, hey, we did this thing?
The other line of possibility is reprinting. Throw Counterspell at the Control players, right? But how do they build the reasoning for that? Do they just reprint cards that slot into archetypes that need a push? That's impossible, as any design needs to be done at least a year in advance, and Modern's meta is volatile enough that things have the potential to shift with a single set's release. Do you just find a card in each color that are probably safe for Modern, but wouldn't make it through a Standard set design? If so, are you just giving more firepower to the stronger colors of Modern, not letting the weaker colors really catch up? (Letting everybody jump forward three steps doesn't let fifth place back into the running.) And then there's the issue of testing. I believe that WotC has been more mindful of eternal formats recently, but I do not believe they have the bandwidth currently to test a set of new cards for such a wide format, without rolling the dice on reprinting duds, or accidentally ruining things for as long as it takes for the meta to adjust.
Basically, when you already have a self-correcting system, which the Modern meta is, you don't really have the luxury to make changes "just because." You risk breaking more than you're fixing, and color/archetype equality is not an intended or stated goal of the format.
I think some of you are making this way too complicated. If WOTC says all cards printed in modern masters are legal in modern, then it doesn't matter if they are already in standard sets or not. It just adds a second way to introduce cards. I'd rather just see older reprints than brand new cards, personally, introduced in this manner.
It does feel like some of you are trying to use einstein's theory of relativity to answer "what is 2+2?"
It seems to me that the argument against direct-to-modern is that standard provides a proving ground. Unfortunately that seems false. Wizards have printed cards that were:
So standard does not protect modern much. I don't see why it's fine to bring to modern a mistake from standard but risking to print a busted card direct to modern is bad.
It seems to me that the argument against direct-to-modern is that standard provides a proving ground. Unfortunately that seems false. Wizards have printed cards that were:
So standard does not protect modern much. I don't see why it's fine to bring to modern a mistake from standard but risking to print a busted card direct to modern is bad.
You also have cards that are on theme for standard and serviceable in limited like vizier of remedies that spawn entirely new archetypes or win cons. Counters company is running two win conditions from the current standard pool for a win on the spot with ballista and rhonas.
Why would a card like that have to make it through a supplemental only set is beyond me. The argument to bypass standard is, as idsurge mentioned, a way to introduce known quantities to the playing field. Introducing new cards is a huge risk that isn't worth taking because the reward is a metagame upset or eventual ban, which makes anyone who spent resources (money, time, trades) on those cards frustrated.
It seems to me that the argument against direct-to-modern is that standard provides a proving ground. Unfortunately that seems false. Wizards have printed cards that were:
So standard does not protect modern much. I don't see why it's fine to bring to modern a mistake from standard but risking to print a busted card direct to modern is bad.
I see no issue with cards bypassing Standard to reach Modern. Cards bypass Standard AND Modern for Legacy and that's mostly turned out fine (except maybe Leovold, but that's probably more of a DRS issue). As noted before by other users, Wizards can't even properly test Standard cards for Standard, let alone Modern, so who cares if they aren't testing them properly for Modern too? We're already getting broken cards and powerful staples under the status quo; why not just add another avenue of card entry? Also, even Standard now has cards legal in Standard that aren't actually in main Standard legal sets (buy a box promo, planeswalker deck cards).
That all said, I'm willing to wait a few sets to see if Play Design fixes this issue with more Modern-appropriate cards going through Standard. Modern is doing great now and for the past 16 months, despite what the doomsayers have alleged. Given that, I'm willing to keep waiting.
I am sure he does but you cannot expect one guy to test for everything in Modern.
I mean sheesh AMK and HOD are ragged on for being weak trash sets and yet HOD still unleashed Hollow One the namesake of one of the strongest decks in Modern.
the point is that people have been asking for cards to bypass standard for years. the idea for modern masters to be an avenue to do this was popular over 5 years ago when the product line was announced. wizards hasnt felt the need to go to that option, and its not because they are unaware that some amount of players think it would be a good idea.
i think its plausible that they could be warming up to the idea, but i see nothing about the current state of things that would warrant them doing it now versus any other time.
if they are using unbans as a method to shake up the meta that isnt as distasteful as bans, then they will eventually run out of options that they deem remotely safe. maybe that will be the tipping point.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Tom Ross tests for Modern as a part of his main job also. It's not that he is testing every card pre-design, but rather that he is checking out post-design to make sure nothing broken enters Modern via Standard.
So it's kind of unfair to say that they are not testing for Modern at all.
Well, they really weren't testing for Modern up until DOM. But starting with DOM, we are seeing Play Design's (and Ross's) influence, which will mean more Modern goodies to come. Also, as said before, we weren't that poorly off even before Play Design came along. So overall, I'm optimistic about our direction.
As to things like dodging Standard, I see no need. Yeah I would love Counterspell, but literally anything else coming out of a side product is simply going to be busted for the sake of being busted.
No truer words have been spoken. I don't think the broken-ness of many commander cards needs to be explained here.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
been hearing this probably too much for me to ignore at this point, a bunch of people are saying that modern right nwo rewards you for playing a linear, less interactive deck more so than playing control decks, which leads me to a question.
I've pretty much been playing URx control/tempoish decks since I've been playing modern (mostly Grixis variants,I had a bit of local success with GDS and control early last year and won a GPT late 2016 with Jeskai Nahiri), so I'd like to think I'm okay at those types of decks. Currently on blue moon and finding it's reasonable. I really love casting JTMS and LOTV
But I also have a rough dredge list together but I have no clue really how to play the deck. On the one hand, modern can really reward getting the reps in and playing what you know. but on the oter hand, people are saying linear decks are the place to be right now
what's the best call?
Both are true. If you put in the reps and tune your deck you can do moderately well with just about anything, because of this the format is so diverse and it's because the format is so diverse that you should play a linear deck. The format is to open to have game against everything, rather than try to meta against everything the safest option is to just do your own thing and try to have just enough generic disruption to stall your opponent long enough to win. Storm decks have Remand, Humans have Kitesail Freebooter, Affinity has Galvanic Blast. All of these cards disrupt your opponent just a little and can still be used to advance your game plan. I play Jeskai control because it's the deck I love. I put in the reps and I pilot my deck well. Counterspells give me broad answers so I never get caught with my pants completely down. Now even with all that said I know it's impossible for me to have game against everything. Decks like Dredge, Lantern, KCI, Tron, and Amulet Titan can all be rough matchups. I'm not completely dead against any of them but I also can't sideboard against all of them and still have slots to sure up my other match-ups post board. So every time I go to a big event there is always a match-up or two that I am just hoping doesn't come up.
thanks for the feedback, I guess my best option is to do a few events with dredge and see if the deck can match my playstyle
Tom Ross tests for Modern as a part of his main job also. It's not that he is testing every card pre-design, but rather that he is checking out post-design to make sure nothing broken enters Modern via Standard.
So it's kind of unfair to say that they are not testing for Modern at all.
Well, they really weren't testing for Modern up until DOM. But starting with DOM, we are seeing Play Design's (and Ross's) influence, which will mean more Modern goodies to come. Also, as said before, we weren't that poorly off even before Play Design came along. So overall, I'm optimistic about our direction.
Are we?
I might be misremembering but I thought the comment from Maro on his blog is that the set code named Spaghetti was the first set we'd see Play Design's influence on and it's the set after Dominaria.
Tom Ross tests for Modern as a part of his main job also. It's not that he is testing every card pre-design, but rather that he is checking out post-design to make sure nothing broken enters Modern via Standard.
So it's kind of unfair to say that they are not testing for Modern at all.
Well, they really weren't testing for Modern up until DOM. But starting with DOM, we are seeing Play Design's (and Ross's) influence, which will mean more Modern goodies to come. Also, as said before, we weren't that poorly off even before Play Design came along. So overall, I'm optimistic about our direction.
Are we?
I might be misremembering but I thought the comment from Maro on his blog is that the set code named Spaghetti was the first set we'd see Play Design's influence on and it's the set after Dominaria.
"The first set to have Play Design input is Dominaria, the first set to have a full Play Design focus (I'll explain the schedule below) is codenamed Milk, and the first set to have Play Design input in vision is Archery."
I agree with the general premise of this (Humans is the best deck), but these days it's an extremely rare occurrence when I don't play against UWx Control or Mardu at least once per league, so people are really gunning for the deck in that environment. Obviously the SCG meta will be a bit different both in deck representation and tournament structure than leagues, which is where her point about decks losing points by playing around Meddling Mage is more relevant, but still, the sheer amount of control I'm seeing right now would make playing Humans online a tough sell for me.
Actually saw the whole matchup for the first time with Mardu Reveler and Humans. Mardu's removal is too diverse, which makes it tough for Humans. The matchups is pretty close to what I predicted, but then Kitesail Freebooter, Meddling Mage, and not drawing any removal off the top can easily lead to a Human victory in any matchup.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I agree with the general premise of this (Humans is the best deck), but these days it's an extremely rare occurrence when I don't play against UWx Control or Mardu at least once per league, so people are really gunning for the deck in that environment. Obviously the SCG meta will be a bit different both in deck representation and tournament structure than leagues, which is where her point about decks losing points by playing around Meddling Mage is more relevant, but still, the sheer amount of control I'm seeing right now would make playing Humans online a tough sell for me.
It might be her shtick to play heel but the confrontational, ego in front style of writing is hard to digest even if she has the point of Humans being the best deck. Also, Her experience is questionable if she says it's enough to use the spot removal on the Meddling mages in order to cast a 4-of Wrath or Verdict.
There's nothing outrageous about the banning of Aether Vial and Mox Opal sometime in the future. The cards are inherently busted and have always run with borrowed time, luck being like the main reason they didn't share a place in the banlist along companions like Chrome Mox and Mental Misstep since the beginning. But well, it's still too soon to talk about it. There are high chances that Humans and Affinity prove to be impossible to hate out of the metagame, but maybe a silver bullet is coming in the next sets just like Damping Sphere came in to combat what might have been a dominance back in GP Lyon.
well if people really gun for affinity the deck will recede for a time like it always does. one thing i do agree with in emma handy's article on humans is that there are some decks that are able to prey on the 'diversity' everyone holds dear. affinity is one such deck. people get pulled in so many different directions trying to deal with everything and people start to think that a set of bolts and 1-2 artifact hate pieces from the side is adequate; when it really isnt.
as for aether vial. well im dubious on labeling it too powerful for the format. my experience playing with it lead me to really dislike the card in general, to the point where i was playing death and taxes less and less and eventually sold it. its the same as with ancestral visions; having it turn 1 or not makes it seem like you are playing completely different decks. one of which sucks. humans doesnt really have that problem because the creature base is powerful enough on its own.
we will see what the deck is really made of by the end of the year. non-rotating formats are stupidly slow at adjusting.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Cards are not inherently broken or powerful. They are contextually broken or powerful depending on the metagame. Aether Vial certainly allows people to do busted things, but in the context of a format where winning is expected on turn 4 and things like Griselbrand can appear on turn 2 it's hardly broken.
Put 3 torpor orb in your sb and just go crush humans. I realize it’s not actually that easy but honestly torpor orb has been amazing vs humans in my testing. It is ok in some other matchups too but if I know an event like scg is going to be humans heavy it’s worth the spot.
3 torpor orbs? dunno what fantasy land you hail from, but aint nobody got space for that
If one considers Human's that much of a boogey man they should. No one thinks twice about 3+ pieces for artifact hate or Graveyard hate or Storm hate so why not Human's hate if there's so much of it out there?
Whilst you're playing one the best shell for it I believe (Jeskai right?), I generally don't see the point. I haven't heard a single person talk about how it's shut down Tron and on it's own it isn't enough to stop Storm. So far, in all my matches it's been nothing but a mild irritation to play against. The sole exception being Bogles where Sphere + Leyline of Sanctity + Teeg is a right pain to play through.
To add onto all of this, MaRo has always said that it is incorrect to do something just because it hasn't been done before. Unless there is a very good reason to mainline cards to Modern, does throwing new cards in MM4 accomplish anything other than letting Wizards say, hey, we did this thing?
The other line of possibility is reprinting. Throw Counterspell at the Control players, right? But how do they build the reasoning for that? Do they just reprint cards that slot into archetypes that need a push? That's impossible, as any design needs to be done at least a year in advance, and Modern's meta is volatile enough that things have the potential to shift with a single set's release. Do you just find a card in each color that are probably safe for Modern, but wouldn't make it through a Standard set design? If so, are you just giving more firepower to the stronger colors of Modern, not letting the weaker colors really catch up? (Letting everybody jump forward three steps doesn't let fifth place back into the running.) And then there's the issue of testing. I believe that WotC has been more mindful of eternal formats recently, but I do not believe they have the bandwidth currently to test a set of new cards for such a wide format, without rolling the dice on reprinting duds, or accidentally ruining things for as long as it takes for the meta to adjust.
Basically, when you already have a self-correcting system, which the Modern meta is, you don't really have the luxury to make changes "just because." You risk breaking more than you're fixing, and color/archetype equality is not an intended or stated goal of the format.
It does feel like some of you are trying to use einstein's theory of relativity to answer "what is 2+2?"
So standard does not protect modern much. I don't see why it's fine to bring to modern a mistake from standard but risking to print a busted card direct to modern is bad.
You also have cards that are on theme for standard and serviceable in limited like vizier of remedies that spawn entirely new archetypes or win cons. Counters company is running two win conditions from the current standard pool for a win on the spot with ballista and rhonas.
Why would a card like that have to make it through a supplemental only set is beyond me. The argument to bypass standard is, as idsurge mentioned, a way to introduce known quantities to the playing field. Introducing new cards is a huge risk that isn't worth taking because the reward is a metagame upset or eventual ban, which makes anyone who spent resources (money, time, trades) on those cards frustrated.
Treasure Cruise was never banned in standard.
That all said, I'm willing to wait a few sets to see if Play Design fixes this issue with more Modern-appropriate cards going through Standard. Modern is doing great now and for the past 16 months, despite what the doomsayers have alleged. Given that, I'm willing to keep waiting.
I mean sheesh AMK and HOD are ragged on for being weak trash sets and yet HOD still unleashed Hollow One the namesake of one of the strongest decks in Modern.
i think its plausible that they could be warming up to the idea, but i see nothing about the current state of things that would warrant them doing it now versus any other time.
if they are using unbans as a method to shake up the meta that isnt as distasteful as bans, then they will eventually run out of options that they deem remotely safe. maybe that will be the tipping point.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Well, they really weren't testing for Modern up until DOM. But starting with DOM, we are seeing Play Design's (and Ross's) influence, which will mean more Modern goodies to come. Also, as said before, we weren't that poorly off even before Play Design came along. So overall, I'm optimistic about our direction.
No truer words have been spoken. I don't think the broken-ness of many commander cards needs to be explained here.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
thanks for the feedback, I guess my best option is to do a few events with dredge and see if the deck can match my playstyle
Are we?
I might be misremembering but I thought the comment from Maro on his blog is that the set code named Spaghetti was the first set we'd see Play Design's influence on and it's the set after Dominaria.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
Unless Maro presented different information on his blog than on the mothership, the first set was DOM:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/vision-design-set-design-and-play-design-2017-10-23
"The first set to have Play Design input is Dominaria, the first set to have a full Play Design focus (I'll explain the schedule below) is codenamed Milk, and the first set to have Play Design input in vision is Archery."
Verdict, Anger, and Settle, in large part to get around Meddling Mage.
Spirits
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)It might be her shtick to play heel but the confrontational, ego in front style of writing is hard to digest even if she has the point of Humans being the best deck. Also, Her experience is questionable if she says it's enough to use the spot removal on the Meddling mages in order to cast a 4-of Wrath or Verdict.
There's nothing outrageous about the banning of Aether Vial and Mox Opal sometime in the future. The cards are inherently busted and have always run with borrowed time, luck being like the main reason they didn't share a place in the banlist along companions like Chrome Mox and Mental Misstep since the beginning. But well, it's still too soon to talk about it. There are high chances that Humans and Affinity prove to be impossible to hate out of the metagame, but maybe a silver bullet is coming in the next sets just like Damping Sphere came in to combat what might have been a dominance back in GP Lyon.
as for aether vial. well im dubious on labeling it too powerful for the format. my experience playing with it lead me to really dislike the card in general, to the point where i was playing death and taxes less and less and eventually sold it. its the same as with ancestral visions; having it turn 1 or not makes it seem like you are playing completely different decks. one of which sucks. humans doesnt really have that problem because the creature base is powerful enough on its own.
we will see what the deck is really made of by the end of the year. non-rotating formats are stupidly slow at adjusting.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'll admit, my deck durdles hard, but I had a 15 turn game against delver tonight, and I play a set of Cryptics for a reason.
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm honestly struggling to justify Damping Sphere...
Spirits
If one considers Human's that much of a boogey man they should. No one thinks twice about 3+ pieces for artifact hate or Graveyard hate or Storm hate so why not Human's hate if there's so much of it out there?
Whilst you're playing one the best shell for it I believe (Jeskai right?), I generally don't see the point. I haven't heard a single person talk about how it's shut down Tron and on it's own it isn't enough to stop Storm. So far, in all my matches it's been nothing but a mild irritation to play against. The sole exception being Bogles where Sphere + Leyline of Sanctity + Teeg is a right pain to play through.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT