valid points. there is nothing wrong with a good deck being good.
edit: its funny though because you scoff at the idea of pillars when there is a chance that humans becomes a pillar in its own right. its disruptive package with a great clock means it just shuts the door on a lot of unfair strategies ever becoming truly good in the format.
I think people get irked when a pretty clear aggro deck has access to that level of disruption. If you are playing removal.dec and they are able to invalidate with thalia, freebooter, and meddling mage, it leads to frustration. Removal.dec should be favored and likely IS favored, but that's not what people remember. If I have learned anything about magic, it is that people will complain... often. Sometimes they are justified. Most of the time it boils down to complaining about bad match ups or recent bad games. That being said, I don't see anything problematic with the humans deck. It is a strong choice, but I don't see any data that supports it being too strong.
In my (limited) experience, the breakout Mardu Reveler list was a heavy favorite versus Humans. Chump blockers for days, varied & plentiful removal, access to Blood Moon plus artifact destruction, and an eventual source of card advantage. Can't speak to whether the most recent lists still have the same great match-up.
valid points. there is nothing wrong with a good deck being good.
edit: its funny though because you scoff at the idea of pillars when there is a chance that humans becomes a pillar in its own right. its disruptive package with a great clock means it just shuts the door on a lot of unfair strategies ever becoming truly good in the format.
I'm specifically referring to the idea that specific old decks are "pillars of modern," and thus anything that leads to their removal from top of the heap is a problem that needs to be addressed - generally this applies to jund and twin complaints.
valid points. there is nothing wrong with a good deck being good.
edit: its funny though because you scoff at the idea of pillars when there is a chance that humans becomes a pillar in its own right. its disruptive package with a great clock means it just shuts the door on a lot of unfair strategies ever becoming truly good in the format.
I'm specifically referring to the idea that specific old decks are "pillars of modern," and thus anything that leads to their removal from top of the heap is a problem that needs to be addressed - generally this applies to jund and twin complaints.
Pod was a pillar of Modern, but it was hard to pinpoint a specific card that really put it over the top. At the time, Siege Rhino was very popular but I really don't think that was the card that put it over the top. It was more that people understood how to build and play the deck much better.
Same cane be said with Twin. Nothing really entered the format to push it into ban territory
Just for the record no one was calling for a humans ban. Someone said it might be the best deck in the format, and I pondered what a humans ban if it were warranted might even look like since it's such a weird deck.
It's easy to jump in on a discussion and assume banmania but it was a pretty measured discussion about envisioning what such a ban might look like if it were necessary--so far as I know they have never banned a hatebear and so it was an interesting thought exercise.
The closest analogue I could think of was Reflector Mage being banned in standard, after some reflection. A ban to check the best deck in the format that was largely made up of good stuff and ramp--which was somewhat different than humans even, which is synergistic disruption with small ramp/tempo elements.
Just for the record no one was calling for a humans ban. Someone said it might be the best deck in the format, and I pondered what a humans ban if it were warranted might even look like since it's such a weird deck.
Thank you. I just feel that if something like Direfleet Daredevil, which didn't push it too much, is commonly printed in Standard and then some BETTER human is printed, then we may at that time be looking at the deck. Right now, it's completely fine, although my opinion is that it slightly IS the best deck.
Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion got Golgari Grave-Troll banned and those printings are a lot less common than a pushed creature, which is pretty much Wizard's goal in every Standard set.
I was talking about it with a friend yesterday and the best we came up with is that maybe Meddling Mage or Champion of the Parish may possibly eat it in the future if something from Standard pushes the Modern version over the edge. We know *cough *cough *Deathrite Shaman that the new card wouldn't get banned, so it is interesting to see what will get banned.
I also see the argument that "why think about it now?" Why not just see if Wizards does print something like that and then and only then act accordingly. But sometimes people like to see what's coming up, for selling considerations, etc. If I know something is going to get banned and am pretty sure about it, it gives me some time to send cards off in different (or the same) directions. I mean, Humans is a deck that I bought when Magnus Lantto played the Company version online, so they were cheap then. They have spiked a lot since then, but there's no point in me selling if I may play the deck. But if the deck is no longer Modern legal, I'd like to have gotten rid of at least some of the cards that will fall to $0 like Ancient Ziggurat for one. I used to give those ****ers out back in the day; still had 3 extras to sell to my local game store for $6 each.
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KTK found a very interesting analysis of the Modern meta. I'm not up enough on the method or the meta to provide thoughts on its accuracy/relevance, but as idSurge said, it passes the sniff test.
As a Control player, the thing that really jumps out at me is that the two control decks putting up any results are the two that have adopted land hate as an integral part of their strategy: UW (Field of Ruin, Spreading Seas) and Blue Moon (the card it's named after).
I can't help but feel disappointed in that status quo. When I play Control, I want to trade threats and responses in a race of tempo vs. incremental advantage. But the field is so diverse and Control's answers are so weak/narrow/sparse/slow (pick 1-4 depending on your colors) that it looks like we just need to suck it up and become Ponza-lite to be competitive. Of course decks like Jeskai can put up results too, but seems pretty dependent on getting matchups that are soft to cards that say "Deal 3 damage," which more and more decks either a) aren't (e.g. Hollow one), or b) are disruptive enough not to be that soft to it anyways (e.g. Humans).
I really don't see how being stuck under a Bolt - Remand - Blood Moon is less frustrating or better for the meta than Counterspell. Just give us a Thoughtseize-level viable catch-all. Hell, make it dome me for 2 or ramp my opponent a la Path. I'll gladly jump off the mana-screw-you plan and play some real control
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
You're not out of touch. What you said makes sense. But it comes down to this. I think that it is nearly universally accepted by now that Counterspell is okay for Modern. But it has to go through Standard first. It is probably okay for that too, but Standard players just don't like the card, or at least that is the accepted medium at this point.
So I think that Counterspell will only get into Modern if WotC decides to do reprints of "non legal in Modern" cards and introduce them to Modern via some sort of MM set. Sadly I think that is the only way. At least until you can convince Standard players that Counterspell is okay. Good luck on that one! They've been conditioned to see Cancel and Negate in every set, both of those cards seeing play. So to convince them to allow Counterspell into Standard is like convincing an Eskimo to buy snow for $5 a pound. WotC is very cognizant of this.
*At this point, Wizards could probably make a worse Counterspell, put it at Mythic, and it would sell the set all by itself. Imagine a worse Counterspell being worth $40 in Standard because it's the best most of those players have ever gotten (or at least in a while for the older players).
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Hmm, I'm not sure everyone's onboard with Counterspell being Modern-safe, which is mostly who I'm addressing. But yeah, I'm super banking on this tweet. Maybe we'll get a Fatal Push-style counter that's stronger in Modern than Standard, but after missing the chance with Delve, and then with Revolt, and then with Cycling, and now with Kicker unless some Kicker cards went unspoilered, I'm not too hopeful with that one.
However, I don't think Standard folks are as against Counterspell as you think. The last time the format had a widely played effectively-Counterspell card was Silumgar's Scorn which was effectively the same thing the bulk of the time in the Constructed decks that ran it. (And even if you didn't draw into a Dragon, Force Spiking a card early on is a non-trivial thing.) Not only did I never hear anyone complain about it, it was a part of one of Standard's greatest eras.
I could be wrong though. I haven't had my finger on the pulse of Standard for a long time.
Hmm, I'm not sure everyone's onboard with Counterspell being Modern-safe, which is mostly who I'm addressing. But yeah, I'm super banking on this tweet. Maybe we'll get a Fatal Push-style counter that's stronger in Modern than Standard, but after missing the chance with Delve, and then with Revolt, and then with Cycling, and now with Kicker unless some Kicker cards went unspoilered, I'm not too hopeful with that one.
However, I don't think Standard folks are as against Counterspell as you think. The last time the format had a widely played effectively-Counterspell card was Silumgar's Scorn which was effectively the same thing the bulk of the time in the Constructed decks that ran it. (And even if you didn't draw into a Dragon, Force Spiking a card early on is a non-trivial thing.) Not only did I never hear anyone complain about it, it was a part of one of Standard's greatest eras.
I could be wrong though. I haven't had my finger on the pulse of Standard for a long time.
I used to talk about Counterspell being in Modern ever since 2012. Many people disagreed with me. Of course this is just anecdotal, but it seems that more and more when I post about it, it's less opposed nowadays. But maybe it's just the people who are not opposed that comment on it. That could very well be it. Locally, it's only really the true Blue haters that are opposed to it; the ones who think Jace will be rebanned, lol.
Silumgar's Scorn, tell me about it. The last SCG Invitational that I attended, an Esper Dragons player did it turns 2-5 on me in Round 1. I realize that Abzan Aggro is not favored, but still, that hurt. I lost that round and 2 more (1-3) before going 4-0 in Modern. After that round and with time to analyze it later, it made me mad that Counterspell is not allowed in Modern, but he effectively counterspelled me on turns 2-5 just by showing me his win-con. Pretty meh stuff...
That being said, I don't think that Standard's players are opposed to a really "bad" Counterspell. You see, I honestly don't want a watered down one. I want the real thing. I haven't had my finger on the pulse either that often, outside of losing in Top 8s and failing to make top 8s in PPTQs with borrowed decks or just bought decks that got banned. But I do go to 2 shops where there is a lot of conversation between me and the Standard players. Not to mention, there's a team that I could have been on if I had more time that shares a lot of info with me, as long as it doesn't hurt team members.
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Regarding Humans and its presence in the meta: Torpor Orb can be run by any deck and is a complete disaster for Humans, so Modern already has a perfect failsafe if the deck were to begin to be a problem.
Orb is potentially reasonable against other decks too, since it's not dead against Snap, Primetime, Bedlam Reveler, Thought-Knot, Taxes lists, etc--so that offsets its perceived narrowness a little.
Possibly, but we know from before that one card is never enough. Relic of Progenitus never save Golgari Grave-Troll from the dumpster fire.
I forgot about Torpor Orb though. When I ran Human Company, someone played that 2/1 flier from Standard that was a Torpor Orb. Damn, that thing was annoying and I couldn't beat it.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
One Relic isn't enough against Dredge, but one Rest in Peace sure is... only lots of decks can't actually run that card. Also, Dredge can Decay RiP away, while Humans has no outs to Orb at all.
Natural State can be played off Horizon Canopy. Yes, it's risky, but they can adapt their MB if they need to. My friend opted for 2 Natural State in the SB of my Human Company that I lent him months ago.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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counterspell, the spell effect for the mana cost, would be fine in modern. its not like people are wailing and gnashing their teeth when i logic knot them for UU. nor would it suddenly make playing more than 4 2 cmc permission spells a viable option.
it would be an upgrade for sure, but im skeptical about control decks suddenly becoming too good because their spells actually work when they need them to. its not as if opponents could, or even would, play differently.
"oh man you are so lucky i jammed that important spell into open mana when you had 3 cards in hand and you happened to have that random copy of negate. i could have played around it, but i was banking on you having a dead card like mana leak."
huh?
as was pointed out though, outside of some ancillary product being modern legal it just isnt gonna happen. but hey its fun and interesting finding the right combination of all of these unique 2 cmc counters....yeah...
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Natural State could work but the Vial Humans deck (with seven lands for W) probably wants Fragmentize or Disenchant. Pretty tough to cast non-creature spells in a Vial build though. But you are right, Humans could also adapt to a meta that was adapting to it.
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
You're not out of touch. What you said makes sense. But it comes down to this. I think that it is nearly universally accepted by now that Counterspell is okay for Modern. But it has to go through Standard first. It is probably okay for that too, but Standard players just don't like the card, or at least that is the accepted medium at this point.
You know, I'm rather dubious of this idea, that Standard players don't like the card. For the last few years they've gotten rid of things that Standard players supposedly didn't like, and that resulted in some of the worst-received Standards in history. In contrast, Modern, which has all of those things that supposedly would drive people away from Standard (cheap and effective answers, lockout cards, hate cards, combo, etc.) only grew in popularity.
I will say that from what I remember, back when it was legal, there weren't really claims that Counterspell was too powerful. Standard players didn't seem to have an issue with it. It was accepted as a fair card and then Wizards of the Coast one day decided it was too good and discontinued it.
Admittedly when I ask local Standard players, many are actually fine with Counterspell - probably slightly more than 50%. I am mostly just regurgitating what I read here, other articles, and in the past locally.
I just think that it would be a HUGE mistake if they "upshifted" it's rarity to Mythic or even Rare.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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Just for the record no one was calling for a humans ban. Someone said it might be the best deck in the format, and I pondered what a humans ban if it were warranted might even look like since it's such a weird deck.
It's easy to jump in on a discussion and assume banmania but it was a pretty measured discussion about envisioning what such a ban might look like if it were necessary--so far as I know they have never banned a hatebear and so it was an interesting thought exercise.
I don't know how others define ban mania, so I won't speak for them. For me, ban mania has always been: framing an issue in terms of bans when ban talk isn't warranted by any known Wizards metric. Jumping from one user opining "Humans might be the best deck" (reasonable) to "what would a Humans ban look like?" (why discuss this?) makes a number of assumptions that are all fundamentally ban mania-driven. I am of the opinion that we should reserve ban discussion only for demonstrable format issues under known Wizards criteria with objective evidence supporting those claims. Humans is not a demonstrable issue by any measure, doesn't meet any of the known Wizards criteria, and none of the ban talk has any objective/evidentiary basis. The very existence of Modern ban mania is what makes inquiries like that okay in the first place to many users. Bans beget bans beget ban mania, and that's what has happened in Modern discussion.
We are in a Modern community (not just MTGS; most online Modern discussion spaces) where the bar for "best deck" is extremely low in casual conversation. It's even low in articles that people pay money for. Once something gets casually suggested as a "best deck," the bar for ban discussion of that deck is also very low. This is why the last year saw ban talk aimed at Tron, Bridge, Temple, Company, Opal, SSG, Goryo's, Storm staples, GDS, Thoughtseize, Cavern, Stirrings, and probably a dozen other cards. All of this started with someone asserting a deck might be a best deck, often with minimal evidence, and conversation quickly leaning towards ban speculation about that speculated best deck. That's ban mania.
To be clear, not all ban talk is ban mania. If someone came in here with some objective evidence supporting a ban claim and aligned it with a known Wizards criteria, I bet most people would be all ears. We just don't see that effort anymore. It's almost all casual, offhanded ban speculation because a serious issue like bans is now such a trivial suggestion given the Modern conversation climate.
Well, Wizards is what creates this feeling of ban mania. The best B&R announcements were the unbanning of Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Jace TMS, Bloodbraid Elf AND the banning of Eye of Ugin. All of the rest of the announcements were bans that COST people big time money. Yes, nobody should invest in Modern, but some people actually like to play it. And you can't blame someone for playing the best deck. That's good analysis on their part. I see people here on MTGS putting the blame on people. "You should have known your deck was busted." ... Easy for you to say because you decided not to buy the best deck.
I have 4 Birthing Pods torn in half, 4 Splinter Twins torn in half, and 4 Summer Blooms torn in half. I knew these cards would/could never be played competitively in any other format and the Pods cost me $1.50 each during Standard, Twin cost $5 each during Standard, and Bloom cost me between $1-2 each. Most people paid a lot more than this and it HURT, literally, when the bans came.
Instead of not talking about strong decks and then shame blaming people later on for not getting rid of a deck before a specific ban announcement, I think some conversation is warranted. If Bobby Fortanely got rid of Bloom Titan before the Open, he would have never won with it (outside of borrowing it from someone). Timing is EVERYTHING. You can't blame someone for trying to play "the best deck." That's what a smart person does if they want to win. Do you know how badly I feel for mastering Bogles instead of something like Twin this whole time? I won 2 PPTQs out of 3 PPTQs with Bogles. I could have done SO much better with Twin if I had mastered it.
*Lastly, I will say that I am not for banning anything in Modern. I think Modern is super great right now - Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor made a good format great! But there could be other unbans; I mean at least in time. No bans are necessary in the near future, but just like Birthing Pod got too good because of Standard, there is nothing stopping WotC from printing a pushed Human in a Standard set. I just hate seeing people lose their money. I had a friend who had Foil Jund. He saved and overspent over the years, but gave up on a Bloodbraid Elf unban that never happened. Jund was terrible in the current meta until the unbans. Wizards literally waited at least a year too long on that unban. Bloodbraid Elf is an amazing card in a Modern sea of amazing cards. That's it. Do you want to lose to BBE or Karn Liberated? I could go on, considering my Titanshift deck with main board 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Slagstorm stands no chance against a turn 3 Infect kill.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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And to be fair before we got to Human Bans...we talked about what should be unbanned especially as it relates to making White not the Bottom Feeder Anymore. But these things tend to be cyclical.
Most of those bans you cited were legitimate, predictable, unambiguous issues. For example, it just took a cursory look at the Pod metagame to know something was probably getting banned. I'm not talking about these bans that match stated criteria with demonstrable evidence. I literally stated this in the last post. I'm talking about the kind of ban talk we saw in 2017 against those dozen plus cards I cited as examples. That is ban mania. Accusing TC Delver of being busted because it has a 20% meta share is not ban mania.
As for unbans, I agree Wizards is too conservative. Unban conversations are often much better than ban ones when targeting clear Modern issues.
I'm not saying that those bans were bad. I was super upset at that point, but later on, I realized that they were mostly good. But...it still hurts. I wish I could have sold those cards when they were at their high point, but I didn't know when and if they would be banned. In the past, Wizards let much more metagame hurting stuff occur, but this Modern is different.
I found a way to win in all of those metagames. But, I realize that this is not all Modern is about. Players like to see diversity, even if it's so diverse that you literally can't metagame.
I agree with you. Unban conversations are much better than ban ones, but still bans hurt people when they happen. I just don't like the shame blaming when it comes to bans. "You're ******* stupid because you didn't sell your Summer Blooms right before X-XX-15, but if you sold way before that announcement, you're also stupid." I've seen too much of that here on mtgs. Anyone telling someone that they should have expected the Splinter Twin ban, I will lose all credibility for that user here. Sorry.
*You know who told me that Splinter Twin was banned? Nobody. Not 1 single person. I found out at FNM when someone said that Twin is no longer legal on the Client and I STILL didn't believe it was banned. That's how hard it was to swallow at the time. Now, in the long run, I believe the ban was very good and opened up a lot of stuff. But at that time, I think many Modern players' jaws literally hit the floor. Yes, some people here went on about it too long, but it's also somewhat understandable. We let it go on because we realized that it is more reasonable to be stunned by the turn of events.
**Also you have to realize that some people were confused by initial bans. We were not confused on WotC believing the card to be too powerful, but believing that it should be banned in Modern. I know I've said this a thousand times here, but when I was losing to Rite of Flame Storm on turn 2, I wondered why Sword of the Meek had been pre-banned. There are things like this that don't make sense. Even at the time, there were a handful of cards that I was confused about, some that have been unbanned too. I will admit that I underestimated the Artifact Lands of Mirrodin however. My excuse is that I didn't play during that time. I restarted Magic right after Standard Affinity had been banned because that's when my brother's best friend introduced me to the new MAgic.
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edit: its funny though because you scoff at the idea of pillars when there is a chance that humans becomes a pillar in its own right. its disruptive package with a great clock means it just shuts the door on a lot of unfair strategies ever becoming truly good in the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm specifically referring to the idea that specific old decks are "pillars of modern," and thus anything that leads to their removal from top of the heap is a problem that needs to be addressed - generally this applies to jund and twin complaints.
Pod was a pillar of Modern, but it was hard to pinpoint a specific card that really put it over the top. At the time, Siege Rhino was very popular but I really don't think that was the card that put it over the top. It was more that people understood how to build and play the deck much better.
Same cane be said with Twin. Nothing really entered the format to push it into ban territory
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
It's easy to jump in on a discussion and assume banmania but it was a pretty measured discussion about envisioning what such a ban might look like if it were necessary--so far as I know they have never banned a hatebear and so it was an interesting thought exercise.
The closest analogue I could think of was Reflector Mage being banned in standard, after some reflection. A ban to check the best deck in the format that was largely made up of good stuff and ramp--which was somewhat different than humans even, which is synergistic disruption with small ramp/tempo elements.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Thank you. I just feel that if something like Direfleet Daredevil, which didn't push it too much, is commonly printed in Standard and then some BETTER human is printed, then we may at that time be looking at the deck. Right now, it's completely fine, although my opinion is that it slightly IS the best deck.
Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion got Golgari Grave-Troll banned and those printings are a lot less common than a pushed creature, which is pretty much Wizard's goal in every Standard set.
I was talking about it with a friend yesterday and the best we came up with is that maybe Meddling Mage or Champion of the Parish may possibly eat it in the future if something from Standard pushes the Modern version over the edge. We know *cough *cough *Deathrite Shaman that the new card wouldn't get banned, so it is interesting to see what will get banned.
I also see the argument that "why think about it now?" Why not just see if Wizards does print something like that and then and only then act accordingly. But sometimes people like to see what's coming up, for selling considerations, etc. If I know something is going to get banned and am pretty sure about it, it gives me some time to send cards off in different (or the same) directions. I mean, Humans is a deck that I bought when Magnus Lantto played the Company version online, so they were cheap then. They have spiked a lot since then, but there's no point in me selling if I may play the deck. But if the deck is no longer Modern legal, I'd like to have gotten rid of at least some of the cards that will fall to $0 like Ancient Ziggurat for one. I used to give those ****ers out back in the day; still had 3 extras to sell to my local game store for $6 each.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)As a Control player, the thing that really jumps out at me is that the two control decks putting up any results are the two that have adopted land hate as an integral part of their strategy: UW (Field of Ruin, Spreading Seas) and Blue Moon (the card it's named after).
I can't help but feel disappointed in that status quo. When I play Control, I want to trade threats and responses in a race of tempo vs. incremental advantage. But the field is so diverse and Control's answers are so weak/narrow/sparse/slow (pick 1-4 depending on your colors) that it looks like we just need to suck it up and become Ponza-lite to be competitive. Of course decks like Jeskai can put up results too, but seems pretty dependent on getting matchups that are soft to cards that say "Deal 3 damage," which more and more decks either a) aren't (e.g. Hollow one), or b) are disruptive enough not to be that soft to it anyways (e.g. Humans).
I really don't see how being stuck under a Bolt - Remand - Blood Moon is less frustrating or better for the meta than Counterspell. Just give us a Thoughtseize-level viable catch-all. Hell, make it dome me for 2 or ramp my opponent a la Path. I'll gladly jump off the mana-screw-you plan and play some real control
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
You're not out of touch. What you said makes sense. But it comes down to this. I think that it is nearly universally accepted by now that Counterspell is okay for Modern. But it has to go through Standard first. It is probably okay for that too, but Standard players just don't like the card, or at least that is the accepted medium at this point.
So I think that Counterspell will only get into Modern if WotC decides to do reprints of "non legal in Modern" cards and introduce them to Modern via some sort of MM set. Sadly I think that is the only way. At least until you can convince Standard players that Counterspell is okay. Good luck on that one! They've been conditioned to see Cancel and Negate in every set, both of those cards seeing play. So to convince them to allow Counterspell into Standard is like convincing an Eskimo to buy snow for $5 a pound. WotC is very cognizant of this.
*At this point, Wizards could probably make a worse Counterspell, put it at Mythic, and it would sell the set all by itself. Imagine a worse Counterspell being worth $40 in Standard because it's the best most of those players have ever gotten (or at least in a while for the older players).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)However, I don't think Standard folks are as against Counterspell as you think. The last time the format had a widely played effectively-Counterspell card was Silumgar's Scorn which was effectively the same thing the bulk of the time in the Constructed decks that ran it. (And even if you didn't draw into a Dragon, Force Spiking a card early on is a non-trivial thing.) Not only did I never hear anyone complain about it, it was a part of one of Standard's greatest eras.
I could be wrong though. I haven't had my finger on the pulse of Standard for a long time.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I used to talk about Counterspell being in Modern ever since 2012. Many people disagreed with me. Of course this is just anecdotal, but it seems that more and more when I post about it, it's less opposed nowadays. But maybe it's just the people who are not opposed that comment on it. That could very well be it. Locally, it's only really the true Blue haters that are opposed to it; the ones who think Jace will be rebanned, lol.
Silumgar's Scorn, tell me about it. The last SCG Invitational that I attended, an Esper Dragons player did it turns 2-5 on me in Round 1. I realize that Abzan Aggro is not favored, but still, that hurt. I lost that round and 2 more (1-3) before going 4-0 in Modern. After that round and with time to analyze it later, it made me mad that Counterspell is not allowed in Modern, but he effectively counterspelled me on turns 2-5 just by showing me his win-con. Pretty meh stuff...
That being said, I don't think that Standard's players are opposed to a really "bad" Counterspell. You see, I honestly don't want a watered down one. I want the real thing. I haven't had my finger on the pulse either that often, outside of losing in Top 8s and failing to make top 8s in PPTQs with borrowed decks or just bought decks that got banned. But I do go to 2 shops where there is a lot of conversation between me and the Standard players. Not to mention, there's a team that I could have been on if I had more time that shares a lot of info with me, as long as it doesn't hurt team members.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Orb is potentially reasonable against other decks too, since it's not dead against Snap, Primetime, Bedlam Reveler, Thought-Knot, Taxes lists, etc--so that offsets its perceived narrowness a little.
I forgot about Torpor Orb though. When I ran Human Company, someone played that 2/1 flier from Standard that was a Torpor Orb. Damn, that thing was annoying and I couldn't beat it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Humans will be fine.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)it would be an upgrade for sure, but im skeptical about control decks suddenly becoming too good because their spells actually work when they need them to. its not as if opponents could, or even would, play differently.
"oh man you are so lucky i jammed that important spell into open mana when you had 3 cards in hand and you happened to have that random copy of negate. i could have played around it, but i was banking on you having a dead card like mana leak."
huh?
as was pointed out though, outside of some ancillary product being modern legal it just isnt gonna happen. but hey its fun and interesting finding the right combination of all of these unique 2 cmc counters....yeah...
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I will say that from what I remember, back when it was legal, there weren't really claims that Counterspell was too powerful. Standard players didn't seem to have an issue with it. It was accepted as a fair card and then Wizards of the Coast one day decided it was too good and discontinued it.
I just think that it would be a HUGE mistake if they "upshifted" it's rarity to Mythic or even Rare.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
I don't know how others define ban mania, so I won't speak for them. For me, ban mania has always been: framing an issue in terms of bans when ban talk isn't warranted by any known Wizards metric. Jumping from one user opining "Humans might be the best deck" (reasonable) to "what would a Humans ban look like?" (why discuss this?) makes a number of assumptions that are all fundamentally ban mania-driven. I am of the opinion that we should reserve ban discussion only for demonstrable format issues under known Wizards criteria with objective evidence supporting those claims. Humans is not a demonstrable issue by any measure, doesn't meet any of the known Wizards criteria, and none of the ban talk has any objective/evidentiary basis. The very existence of Modern ban mania is what makes inquiries like that okay in the first place to many users. Bans beget bans beget ban mania, and that's what has happened in Modern discussion.
We are in a Modern community (not just MTGS; most online Modern discussion spaces) where the bar for "best deck" is extremely low in casual conversation. It's even low in articles that people pay money for. Once something gets casually suggested as a "best deck," the bar for ban discussion of that deck is also very low. This is why the last year saw ban talk aimed at Tron, Bridge, Temple, Company, Opal, SSG, Goryo's, Storm staples, GDS, Thoughtseize, Cavern, Stirrings, and probably a dozen other cards. All of this started with someone asserting a deck might be a best deck, often with minimal evidence, and conversation quickly leaning towards ban speculation about that speculated best deck. That's ban mania.
To be clear, not all ban talk is ban mania. If someone came in here with some objective evidence supporting a ban claim and aligned it with a known Wizards criteria, I bet most people would be all ears. We just don't see that effort anymore. It's almost all casual, offhanded ban speculation because a serious issue like bans is now such a trivial suggestion given the Modern conversation climate.
I have 4 Birthing Pods torn in half, 4 Splinter Twins torn in half, and 4 Summer Blooms torn in half. I knew these cards would/could never be played competitively in any other format and the Pods cost me $1.50 each during Standard, Twin cost $5 each during Standard, and Bloom cost me between $1-2 each. Most people paid a lot more than this and it HURT, literally, when the bans came.
Instead of not talking about strong decks and then shame blaming people later on for not getting rid of a deck before a specific ban announcement, I think some conversation is warranted. If Bobby Fortanely got rid of Bloom Titan before the Open, he would have never won with it (outside of borrowing it from someone). Timing is EVERYTHING. You can't blame someone for trying to play "the best deck." That's what a smart person does if they want to win. Do you know how badly I feel for mastering Bogles instead of something like Twin this whole time? I won 2 PPTQs out of 3 PPTQs with Bogles. I could have done SO much better with Twin if I had mastered it.
*Lastly, I will say that I am not for banning anything in Modern. I think Modern is super great right now - Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor made a good format great! But there could be other unbans; I mean at least in time. No bans are necessary in the near future, but just like Birthing Pod got too good because of Standard, there is nothing stopping WotC from printing a pushed Human in a Standard set. I just hate seeing people lose their money. I had a friend who had Foil Jund. He saved and overspent over the years, but gave up on a Bloodbraid Elf unban that never happened. Jund was terrible in the current meta until the unbans. Wizards literally waited at least a year too long on that unban. Bloodbraid Elf is an amazing card in a Modern sea of amazing cards. That's it. Do you want to lose to BBE or Karn Liberated? I could go on, considering my Titanshift deck with main board 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Slagstorm stands no chance against a turn 3 Infect kill.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)As for unbans, I agree Wizards is too conservative. Unban conversations are often much better than ban ones when targeting clear Modern issues.
I found a way to win in all of those metagames. But, I realize that this is not all Modern is about. Players like to see diversity, even if it's so diverse that you literally can't metagame.
I agree with you. Unban conversations are much better than ban ones, but still bans hurt people when they happen. I just don't like the shame blaming when it comes to bans. "You're ******* stupid because you didn't sell your Summer Blooms right before X-XX-15, but if you sold way before that announcement, you're also stupid." I've seen too much of that here on mtgs. Anyone telling someone that they should have expected the Splinter Twin ban, I will lose all credibility for that user here. Sorry.
*You know who told me that Splinter Twin was banned? Nobody. Not 1 single person. I found out at FNM when someone said that Twin is no longer legal on the Client and I STILL didn't believe it was banned. That's how hard it was to swallow at the time. Now, in the long run, I believe the ban was very good and opened up a lot of stuff. But at that time, I think many Modern players' jaws literally hit the floor. Yes, some people here went on about it too long, but it's also somewhat understandable. We let it go on because we realized that it is more reasonable to be stunned by the turn of events.
**Also you have to realize that some people were confused by initial bans. We were not confused on WotC believing the card to be too powerful, but believing that it should be banned in Modern. I know I've said this a thousand times here, but when I was losing to Rite of Flame Storm on turn 2, I wondered why Sword of the Meek had been pre-banned. There are things like this that don't make sense. Even at the time, there were a handful of cards that I was confused about, some that have been unbanned too. I will admit that I underestimated the Artifact Lands of Mirrodin however. My excuse is that I didn't play during that time. I restarted Magic right after Standard Affinity had been banned because that's when my brother's best friend introduced me to the new MAgic.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)