I don't have a problem with BBE being unbanned, that card is completely fine. All it will probably do is powering up Jund and thats alright. I should have made that clear in my previous post.
I think Ponza is actually going to get the biggest boost from Bloodbraid Elf. It's already quite comfortable running quite a few 4-drops (whereas Jund will currently run at most 2, sometimes 0), so I think Bloodbraid Elf fits more snugly into it than Jund.
Also, unlike DRS-less Jund, Ponza can get that BBE out on turn 3.
2) SFM is way better than tarmagoyf because at the very worst it tortured for something.
Additionally - a sword equipped by turn 4 is still a faster clock then a jace played on turn 4.
Moroever - SFM allows you to play sword + equip by turn 4 with leaving mana up for disruption if you need it. That's huge.
Worst case scenarios are only one (I will admit, a very important) parameter used to judge the viability or strength of a card. Worst case, best case, average case, and the likelihoods of any of them combine to give an idea of power level. Looking at only worst case scenarios is extremely disingenuous. I mean, rampant growth is better than scapeshift, right?
Neither Jace nor SFM are properly described as "clocks". I mean technically it is true in the same way that a tomato is a berry, but we have better descriptors for them than "clocks". That isn't the point of either and both are extremely inefficient at it. Swinging with a creature equipped with a sword on turn 5 is pretty slow even if it is faster than being fatesealed to death. In a format defined by ridiculously efficient threats and quick, powerful combos you are really just splitting hairs at that point.
I haven't seen anyone bring up the point that if you are playing SFM and tutoring a sword and equipping it and disrupting by turn 4 then the creature equipped is probably SFM herself. You really need to have a 1 drop creature turn 1 or turn 3 to take full advantage and then you've had only 1 mana on either turn 1 or 3 to interact.
All that to say this could be the reason of the unban of Jace/Elf. What if Wizard decided to unban those spoilers in order to reduce the number of tier decks and so, giving a most signifant place for skill ?
This is simply tinfoil hat theory that directly opposes what was stated in the recent ban announcement (quoted for reference)
R&D has been happy with the evolution of the Modern metagame over the past year, and Pro Tour Rivals of Ixalan made for an outstanding viewing experience for fans of the format.
and
When we discuss changes to the B&R, we are far more interested in healthy play patterns, diversity in the metagame, interactive gameplay, and decks having counterplay and counterstrategies than in what deck won the last tournament.
Wizards clearly likes the meta how it is and there are plenty of explanations as to why they would unban Jace and BBE but to homogenize the format is not one of them. The unbans may do that, but it would be an unintended consequence that they decided was worth the risk, not the reason for doing it. It is good for Wizards for as many decks as possible to be viable because it keeps the format interesting, it gives them more options for meaningful reprints in the masters and supplemental products, and it means there is more of a chance that a new card will impact the format and cause the new set to sell than if there were only two of three viable decks.
I'm pissed that I missed out on a foil dreadbore foil for a few dollars. I didn't buy it because I didn't want to spend 2 dollars on shipping. Ugh
The prices are absolutely disgusting right now, K-Command, Collective Brutality and Blackcleave are skyrocketing
Blue staples are as well
I want to play Blue on MTGO but that's getting to be too much, too
I honestly really didn't want to spend money for the next two months or so, and now I've spent so much the past few days
Hmm, mtg can be addicting sometimes... the wallet just screams in terror.
Hard to believe that CB's are over 20 dollars now. They were only 6 dollars apiece last Christmas. It's a stroke of luck that I put funds into buying 2 of them during the holidays.
Today's the first day of new modern. I can imagine the next couple of weeks are going to be a bit weird and unrepresentative. Lots of people are going to be hopping on the train of new cards.
As it settles though, make sure to check back in and let us know what sorts of proportions of decks are around online. I don't really play mtgo so can't get into that scene.
Also, as this is the "state of modern" can we keep the arguing and wild speculation over minutae of why the unbans were made off this thread please? Pretty please? I just want to come here and get some insight from people playing the game. :S
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I saw a few tweets this morning about some iteration on the Mardu Pyromancer shell and Traverse DS, it doesnt look like people are giving up just yet on those builds.
Saffron Olive
I get why Wizards decided to make the Modern bannings take place after this weekend's events but I'm pretty unlikely to watch either the SCG or GP now that the format is dead. Would have been glued to the screen if it was Jace vs. Bloodbraid though.
Aaron Forsythe
I know people are unhappy that this weekend’s Modern events won’t feature the unbans, but sticking to dates is good policy. When we announced the dates initially, we weren’t sure if we’d be banning, unbanning, nothing, or both. #PTRIX broke well for unbans. #WotCStaff
Let's also note that in this same thread there is the following tweeti:
Aaron Forsythe@mtgaaron It would be even worse if we did it without reprinting it. Our evaluation of the risk of a re-ban was very, very low—we really don’t want to do that. And from everything I’ve seen over the past couple days, there isn’t a lot of fear about buying Jace right now.
I agree with Diva, I think midrange is really going to be hit. We could see a healthy meta cycle where midrange will exist to punish decks that go underneath Jace.
I think after the initial hype of BBE, midrange is going to disappear, but that isn't me conceding that midrange is doomed.
The first two months of modern probably looks messy.
Jund has to absolutely transform into something different, it won't survive in competitive tournaments with Jace, there has to be some innovation.
Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor encourage interaction on turns 1-3. Isn't that what at least some players here wanted to increase in Modern? I know I did.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor encourage interaction on turns 1-3. Isn't that what at least some players here wanted to increase in Modern? I know I did.
There's a counterargument that claims interactive decks will struggle to slog through Jace or BBE, but linear decks don't care about them as much. This argument is supportedbydata (however valid). Those who tout it tend to draw the conclusion that Jace and BBE actually incentivize uninteractive decks.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Considering how fast modern already is, I don't think there's much more going faster outside of becoming a glass cannon which can be heavily punished, or creature aggro, which can be countered into a healthy rock paper scissors scenario.
I don't have a problem with BBE being unbanned, that card is completely fine. All it will probably do is powering up Jund and thats alright. I should have made that clear in my previous post.
I think Ponza is actually going to get the biggest boost from Bloodbraid Elf. It's already quite comfortable running quite a few 4-drops (whereas Jund will currently run at most 2, sometimes 0), so I think Bloodbraid Elf fits more snugly into it than Jund.
Also, unlike DRS-less Jund, Ponza can get that BBE out on turn 3.
Technically Ponza can hit a turn 2 BBE and I think that is it's strength. Turn 1 Green land - Arbor Elf. Turn 2 green land utopia sprawl on 1st land, use Elf for 4 mana. Hit a Molten Rain or Moon off the top is looking good.
well bbe and jace decks are going to rise in popularity; both of which thrive on interaction. the various flavors of linear decks are just less affected by the power of those particular cards. saying that more people playing interactive decks means more people playing non-interactive decks doesn't really get you anywhere. the dichotomy of fair and unfair decks will remain the same, with the metagame shifting accordingly.
i think the more valid concern to bring up is the possible homogenization of the subset of fair decks in the format. for instance if 1 or 2 fair decks are so far and above the others in power that playing anything else is just conceding to playing a weaker deck in all aspects.
mind you im referring to entire decks, and not just X or Y card showing up all the time; which already happens (snapcaster for example). plenty of cards show up all over the place, which is a testament to the raw power of the cards. this doesn't mean that the decks playing them are the same.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
The JTMS unban was silly but I wouldn't worry too much. Golgari Grave-Troll set a precedent that, if an unban proves to be a mistake, they will just quickly ban it again.
Except Jace is now half a grand
Sword of the Meek shot up in price when it was unbanned to like $40 and now sits at $5. People may want to try to profit on the sheer shock value of the unbanning, but Jace's price will ultimately be a result of the card's viability. If people aren't at least 5-0'ing leagues in a couple months, it'll go down real quick.
Sure, sure, cause Sword of the Meek is on Jace's power level
And 160 dollars=500 dollars?
Of course they can't ban JTMS until they have cleared all their stock of M25 packs. This is going to be funny. Maybe they'll ban Islands later to try to weaken them.
tbh i think a lot of the concerns about the unbannings is a result of how they are being introduced. abruptly getting obviously powerful cards shoved in our faces is jarring. usually there is a transition as the format 'discovers' the power of cards as they come in from standard.
this isnt the case for jace, which is a no-brainer upgrade based on historical evidence.
another perspective is to imagine other powerful cards in the format being introduced in a similar manner. for instance if lightning bolt suddenly joined the format modern players would have an aneurysm.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.
In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.
It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.
In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.
The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.
In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.
The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
I don't know about that. Would 8Rack even be a deck at all without Thoughtseize?
8 rack probably wouldn't exist. modern would look drastically different if any number of powerful cards werent in the format
mostly i was trying to get across that i don't believe a healthy/diverse format and having super powerful cards are mutually exclusive concepts
i brought up the idea after remembering a conversation Patrick Sullivan had on an SCG broadcast. i think they were talking about true name nemesis in legacy, because people were complaining about it. he countered by posing the hypothetical of wasteland suddenly being introduced and how people would crap their pants.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I have no clear idea what JTMS will do to the metagame. My guess is that it fits into top-tier decks, reshapes the metagame similar to Push or other strong new cards, but is ultimately fair and balanced and coexists with Modern's existing powerful strategies. But I do know that JTMS-related play lines and matches currently look very skill-intensive. I've been watching various streamers today, including Caleb D now, and have seen some very Legacy-esque lines with blue-based JTMS decks grinding out games. Between miracle triggers, card draw, Brainstorm activation, fetches, and other effects, there's a lot of nuances to these matchups and they look really fun to play out. This is especially true in mirrors with active boards and hands. I imagine that those who wanted more of this kind of Magic in Modern will love this new addition to the format.
I don't even care if JTMS becomes a defining blue staple as long as those decks are all different and skill-intensive. As long as it's merely a tool used by different blue decks, that will promote diversity and healthy gameplay. This is especially true if we never figure out a "best" JTMS deck and we just see people try him in various Ux shells. Or if the "best" JTMS deck is rotating, just as we saw with Shadow decks.
EDIT: Also, this example of an existing powerful card (e.g. Bolt, TS, Snapcaster, etc.) being suddenly introduced to a format in a hypothetical alternate reality is spot on. It's easy to look at powerful cards and exclaim about their brokenness. But generally if we look at existing powerful cards that are just as strong and already in the format, we'd see that the new additions will probably have similar fates.
It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.
In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.
The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
I don't know about that. Would 8Rack even be a deck at all without Thoughtseize?
IoK is a solid substitute, and the deck could probably be okay with Duress, but it would be fears about T-Seize in the deck mean more than what would actually happen.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I don't even care if JTMS becomes a defining blue staple as long as those decks are all different and skill-intensive. As long as it's merely a tool used by different blue decks, that will promote diversity and healthy gameplay. This is especially true if we never figure out a "best" JTMS deck and we just see people try him in various Ux shells. Or if the "best" JTMS deck is rotating, just as we saw with Shadow decks.
The problem with that is the homogenization of blue based decks and the "pushing out" of other decks that would be viable if a card like Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasn't in the format. For example, Delver is possibly the best deck in Legacy, and while its extremely skill testing with a crazy amount of nuance and decision making, at the end of the day if the deck pushes out too many other strategies, then why not just ban it for the greater good of the format (e.g. Deathrite Shaman)?
Most people would agree that Modern was in an amazing spot, with so many viable yet interactive decks in the format. The views on Twitch were high, and Modern paper tourneys such as SCG were the most popular format. Why fix what ain't broken?
Also, unlike DRS-less Jund, Ponza can get that BBE out on turn 3.
Worst case scenarios are only one (I will admit, a very important) parameter used to judge the viability or strength of a card. Worst case, best case, average case, and the likelihoods of any of them combine to give an idea of power level. Looking at only worst case scenarios is extremely disingenuous. I mean, rampant growth is better than scapeshift, right?
Neither Jace nor SFM are properly described as "clocks". I mean technically it is true in the same way that a tomato is a berry, but we have better descriptors for them than "clocks". That isn't the point of either and both are extremely inefficient at it. Swinging with a creature equipped with a sword on turn 5 is pretty slow even if it is faster than being fatesealed to death. In a format defined by ridiculously efficient threats and quick, powerful combos you are really just splitting hairs at that point.
I haven't seen anyone bring up the point that if you are playing SFM and tutoring a sword and equipping it and disrupting by turn 4 then the creature equipped is probably SFM herself. You really need to have a 1 drop creature turn 1 or turn 3 to take full advantage and then you've had only 1 mana on either turn 1 or 3 to interact.
This is simply tinfoil hat theory that directly opposes what was stated in the recent ban announcement (quoted for reference)
and
Wizards clearly likes the meta how it is and there are plenty of explanations as to why they would unban Jace and BBE but to homogenize the format is not one of them. The unbans may do that, but it would be an unintended consequence that they decided was worth the risk, not the reason for doing it. It is good for Wizards for as many decks as possible to be viable because it keeps the format interesting, it gives them more options for meaningful reprints in the masters and supplemental products, and it means there is more of a chance that a new card will impact the format and cause the new set to sell than if there were only two of three viable decks.
Hmm, mtg can be addicting sometimes... the wallet just screams in terror.
Hard to believe that CB's are over 20 dollars now. They were only 6 dollars apiece last Christmas. It's a stroke of luck that I put funds into buying 2 of them during the holidays.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
As it settles though, make sure to check back in and let us know what sorts of proportions of decks are around online. I don't really play mtgo so can't get into that scene.
Also, as this is the "state of modern" can we keep the arguing and wild speculation over minutae of why the unbans were made off this thread please? Pretty please? I just want to come here and get some insight from people playing the game. :S
Spirits
Aaron Forsythe@mtgaaron
It would be even worse if we did it without reprinting it. Our evaluation of the risk of a re-ban was very, very low—we really don’t want to do that. And from everything I’ve seen over the past couple days, there isn’t a lot of fear about buying Jace right now.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I think after the initial hype of BBE, midrange is going to disappear, but that isn't me conceding that midrange is doomed.
The first two months of modern probably looks messy.
Jund has to absolutely transform into something different, it won't survive in competitive tournaments with Jace, there has to be some innovation.
Spirits
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
But how much faster can it actually go? We already see decks risking the nut draws for turn 3 wins.
I think the meta will adapt or cycle if that occurs.
I feel 50/50 about the Jace unban, either this will be fantastic and interactive, or it'll be blue midrange dominated.
I think it'll take half a year before we can see if Jace is acceptable or not.
Technically Ponza can hit a turn 2 BBE and I think that is it's strength. Turn 1 Green land - Arbor Elf. Turn 2 green land utopia sprawl on 1st land, use Elf for 4 mana. Hit a Molten Rain or Moon off the top is looking good.
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
i think the more valid concern to bring up is the possible homogenization of the subset of fair decks in the format. for instance if 1 or 2 fair decks are so far and above the others in power that playing anything else is just conceding to playing a weaker deck in all aspects.
mind you im referring to entire decks, and not just X or Y card showing up all the time; which already happens (snapcaster for example). plenty of cards show up all over the place, which is a testament to the raw power of the cards. this doesn't mean that the decks playing them are the same.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Of course they can't ban JTMS until they have cleared all their stock of M25 packs. This is going to be funny. Maybe they'll ban Islands later to try to weaken them.
this isnt the case for jace, which is a no-brainer upgrade based on historical evidence.
another perspective is to imagine other powerful cards in the format being introduced in a similar manner. for instance if lightning bolt suddenly joined the format modern players would have an aneurysm.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.
Spirits
The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
mostly i was trying to get across that i don't believe a healthy/diverse format and having super powerful cards are mutually exclusive concepts
i brought up the idea after remembering a conversation Patrick Sullivan had on an SCG broadcast. i think they were talking about true name nemesis in legacy, because people were complaining about it. he countered by posing the hypothetical of wasteland suddenly being introduced and how people would crap their pants.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I don't even care if JTMS becomes a defining blue staple as long as those decks are all different and skill-intensive. As long as it's merely a tool used by different blue decks, that will promote diversity and healthy gameplay. This is especially true if we never figure out a "best" JTMS deck and we just see people try him in various Ux shells. Or if the "best" JTMS deck is rotating, just as we saw with Shadow decks.
EDIT: Also, this example of an existing powerful card (e.g. Bolt, TS, Snapcaster, etc.) being suddenly introduced to a format in a hypothetical alternate reality is spot on. It's easy to look at powerful cards and exclaim about their brokenness. But generally if we look at existing powerful cards that are just as strong and already in the format, we'd see that the new additions will probably have similar fates.
IoK is a solid substitute, and the deck could probably be okay with Duress, but it would be fears about T-Seize in the deck mean more than what would actually happen.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The problem with that is the homogenization of blue based decks and the "pushing out" of other decks that would be viable if a card like Jace, the Mind Sculptor wasn't in the format. For example, Delver is possibly the best deck in Legacy, and while its extremely skill testing with a crazy amount of nuance and decision making, at the end of the day if the deck pushes out too many other strategies, then why not just ban it for the greater good of the format (e.g. Deathrite Shaman)?
Most people would agree that Modern was in an amazing spot, with so many viable yet interactive decks in the format. The views on Twitch were high, and Modern paper tourneys such as SCG were the most popular format. Why fix what ain't broken?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]