Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
As promised, we're allowing discussion of Splinter Twin. We will monitor this thread closely, and we will take action if we need to. I'm sorry about the delays with rolling this out. Real life stuff got in the way, and I really wish I could've done this sooner.
Lantern is way too consistent. Whir of invention is NUTS in that deck... Just grab whatever one of the three pieces that you need.
Ancient stirrings is superpowerful also. Along the lines of ponder and preordain type powerful. If those are too strong, then why the heck should ancient stirrings be able to dig five deep for one g?
Just saying. In all honesty I like modern more than standard, i hope at least one of the two from above, mostly whir, get the axe.
I haven't been able to seen anything, but I saw a tweet from WotC that day 1 had 10 different undefeated players with 10 different decks which is neat.
10 undefeated players/decks from day 1 and that’s diversity at its finest so far.
Let’s wait awhile before we ban anything. Unbans is all wotc should be looking into but I’m sure no change as usual and then they let modern sit until it matters (another large modern season) or is replaced.
I do agree that Lantern is probably the best deck in Modern. Incidentally, this is for the exact same reason many other decks got banned: it probably has the matchup spectrum that is closest to 50/50 across the board. Are you a player who wants to leverage their skill as much as possible in Modern? Lantern is probably the deck for you. It has a high skill floor and a super high skill ceiling, which is why I think we are going to see more of the best Magic and Modern players move towards it this year. That's not to say the deck isn't beatable. I just think that if we plotted its MTGO matchups over a large dataset, it would have the most matchups that are 50/50+ of all top-tier decks, and I think its sub-50/50 matchups would still be closer to 50/50 (or fewer overall) than other decks.
This trajectory could become problematic for Lantern if it takes off in a big way. This could arise from at least two reasons. First, it is possible that so many people play this "best deck" that it becomes a format dominance issue. I don't think this is a major concern, however, because of the skill floor and ceiling. Lots of people won't be good with this deck and, honestly, might dislike Lantern for other reasons. This might artificially keep down its popularity. Second, more worryingly, we could see less experienced players use Lantern at events and draw out rounds to turns, extending every round. We didn't see this at the PT because Lantern pilots were very experienced, but bad Lantern pilots are miserable to play against. This could potentially lead to a logistical, ban-related concern for the deck. It's also a huge MTGO concern, where inexperienced Lantern pilots waste even more time on a clocked match.
If Lantern sees a ban in the future, I believe it will be for the above narrative: good matchups, many players switch to it, many of those Lantern newcomers waste lots of time and cause paper/MTGO logistical issues. We're not there yet (UW Control caused more draws at the PT than Lantern), but I can see this happening as more people realize how much skill they can leverage on it.
EDIT: As for immediate predictions for Monday, I'm at a solid "no bans," a plausible BBE unban, and maaaybe a JTMS or SFM (edit2) unban.
I'd say JTMS and SFM are equally likely/unlikely (edited post to reflect that). We know Wizards discussed unbanning ideas around October, and I think those cards both theoretically seem safe-ish in the October 2017 Modern snapshot. BBE definitely looked safe, so it's a clear frontrunner. JTMS is a bit of a question mark, because blue-based decks are viable but still less viable than other options, but are good enough that JTMS might be backbreaking. Same with SFM; a lot of the decks that could run her are decent and it's unclear if she pushes them over the top. So maybe Wizards has some internal testing that suggested these cards would be safe, and maybe they don't have it and it's just BBE.
I'm so glad we can talk about splinter twin again. I don't have much to add to the lantern conversation. I just wanted to put down my predictions. I would love for several cards to be unbanned and would be fine with unbanning DTT, SFM, GSZ, ponder, Preordain, twin, and BBE among others. JTMS is 4cmc and does not win on the spot so it's probably Ok, but it has too much risk for me.
What I want; no bans, unban splinter twin and BBE.
Can someone explain the lantern-going-to-time problem to me? I don't play in big tournaments, but I would just assume with hundred+ players almost invariably every round has someone go to time. Every 30-40 player prerelease I have gone to goes to time every round because somewhere in the room has a long match. Is it not the case that most rounds already go to time?
Assuming it is the case that most rounds in a huge event go to time because somewhere out there in the dozens and dozens of matchups is a control mirror or a midrange slogfest, what difference does lantern being popular make? The rounds still go to time... okay... that would be no change. I feel like people are conflating lantern with eggs on this which seems wrong. The similarity between lantern and eggs is that they are artifact decks that are boring as **** to play against and have annoying win conditions.
Eggs would get to time and get 2 or 3 chances to sacrifice and recur a bunch of artifacts trying to combo, taking 20 minutes. Lantern gets to time and goes "draw, go" each turn. I do not see lantern's 5 turns ever taking an inordinate amount of time, certainly no more than jund or jeskai control or whatever.
TLDR; Lantern's individual turns are no worse than a midrange or control deck and are often way faster (draw-go). Lantern does not present a logistics issue because its last 5 turns cannot be excessively long.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
It is more from players not conceding despite being unable to win through the lock, forcing the lantern player to mill every card. While it is technically legal to do so, it does add time to the process and a bit unnecessary and is spiteful. An example would be game 1, not having a way to win through bridge, but making the lantern player go through the process anyway.
There are also inexperienced players who may take longer to make decisions on what to mill, but I'd argue that is probably more helpful to the opponent, giving them greater odds of drawing an out.
Whether or not a player concedes to the lock doesn't matter. The match has a timer of 50 minutes (or whatever the standard is for big tournaments). If a player wants to force a ridiculously long game 1 or 2 by not scooping that's their perogative - the game will still go to turns at 50m at which point it will likely be over in the usual 5-10m. Eggs was banned because it wasn't 5-10m for those last 5 turns - each egg player turn could be 20m long so extra turns could add upwards of 30-40 minutes to the round timer beyond the allocated amount. That is simply not how lantern works.
The only way this is a problem is if rounds rarely actually go to time which I find hard to believe. As mentioned, every 30+ player prerelease I've gone to has pretty much every single round go to time. I assume tournaments with hundreds of players in the room, someone somewhere will usually go to time.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I'm guessing some believe going to time every round makes tournaments take longer. Personally, I'm not sure if at a large tournament, rounds go to time every single round. I'm guessing they don't as Modern is much more of a goldfish format where even a UW Control deck will probably go to time 1 out of every 9 rounds at most.
But I could be wrong. Perhaps every round goes to time anyway, so it really doesn't matter much what happens specifically in the Lantern match. You would really have to ask someone who has judged a GP before. I know some of those judges, but not enough to ask them right now. Personally, I feel that the Lantern match at turns will take longer than the other average match. Many other matches that go to time are pretty much decided, so players are much more likely to scoop, whereas a Lantern match at turns will most likely end as a tie. Opponents simply don't give in to a perceived horrible deck! Not to mention, a lot of players try Lantern and they themselves are very inexperienced. This bodes poorly for finishing on time. (Mind you, it's nothing like Eggs. The only comparison is actually going to time, but not the TIME that it takes IN turns.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yeah. Lantern is 'skill intensove'... "What lock piece didn't I get in my opening hand? Oh, ok that one. Let me use whir of invention to put it on the field at instant speed".
...but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays.
This does not apply to veteran Lantern players who are generally efficient with their turns. But it definitely applies to inexperienced Lantern players who have numerous activations to manage that in turn lead to tournament delays. Matches may not be concluding in a timely fashion when Lantern pilots are slowly puzzling through their lock pieces. Again, I don't think we've seen this issue yet because most Lantern players are very experienced with the deck and know shortcuts and how to quickly move through their steps. But as the deck takes off and we see more players trying it in major tournament settings, we may see worse players bog down games and lead to similar tournament delays.
I don't mind lantern sticking around. You can actually interact with the deck and its not super fast and needs setup. There is ample of time to win vs it. For me the boogieman of the format is tron as it is way too consistent to have turn 3 Karn any form it is ran (Eldrazi or B/G) Also sick an tired to do 10 man FNM's where 6+ are Tron decks >_>
Tron is my primary deck, and I assure you, something fishy is going on if they have t3 Karn more than maybe half of the games. T4 is pretty common, but 3 is the perfect hand.
And may I just suggest something really quick? If Tron is 60% of your meta, build Ad Nauseum and collect the prize support until they play something else.
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
So Lantern is the new flavour of the month "Best Deck-needs to be banned" eh?
I've lost track of how many decks have been deemed "too good" or whatever you call it over the last months. First it was Shadow, than E-Tron, than Storm, than Shadow again, than normal Tron, than Affinity and now Lantern. Guess what? Nothing has been banned despite constant claims that the sky is falling.
Jesus Christ.
Nothing needs to be banned on Monday. If Lantern keeps winning big tournaments, gets a too high meta share or causes big logistical problems, action has to be taken but what if it's just another flavour of the month deck until the metagame adapts like all those other decks mentioned before?
People have generally disliked Lantern as a deck since it first became a deck. Watching others suffer (either on camera or in person) is one thing, but the novelty of its unique gameplay wears off quickly when you actually have to play against it yourself. It's the epitome of frustrating and miserable gameplay that promotes terrible experiences for most people involved. These kinds of decks are usually not a problem if they exist in the fringe or have several natural predators. But when it works its way up to winning multiple GPs and a PT, then we have to question whether or not we want this to be a face of the format.
It's not a knee-jerk reaction for people to be hating on Lantern or wanting something banned. It's justifiable and credible when faced with the results it has achieved, the kind of consistency and resilience it holds, and the utter horrible and unfun experience it produces. In the past, wining and consistency were already enough for a ban. Lantern has the added stigma of being awful to play against and extremely slow in the hands of lesser skilled pilots.
Now, will something be banned from it? Probably not. But I would not at all be surprised to see something hit Monday. If something is not hit Monday and it wins any other event in the near future, I expect a ban following that performance.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the February 12, 2018 B&R Announcement:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf are unbanned.
Next B&R Announcement:
April 16, 2018
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Jace, the Mind SculptorSecond Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
Couldn't watch it today outside of UW v BG.
Was Latern striking fear into people's hearts?
Spirits
Ancient stirrings is superpowerful also. Along the lines of ponder and preordain type powerful. If those are too strong, then why the heck should ancient stirrings be able to dig five deep for one g?
Just saying. In all honesty I like modern more than standard, i hope at least one of the two from above, mostly whir, get the axe.
Let’s wait awhile before we ban anything. Unbans is all wotc should be looking into but I’m sure no change as usual and then they let modern sit until it matters (another large modern season) or is replaced.
Spirits
I only know bg midrange and bogles are two of them.
Dan ward always has too lol
This trajectory could become problematic for Lantern if it takes off in a big way. This could arise from at least two reasons. First, it is possible that so many people play this "best deck" that it becomes a format dominance issue. I don't think this is a major concern, however, because of the skill floor and ceiling. Lots of people won't be good with this deck and, honestly, might dislike Lantern for other reasons. This might artificially keep down its popularity. Second, more worryingly, we could see less experienced players use Lantern at events and draw out rounds to turns, extending every round. We didn't see this at the PT because Lantern pilots were very experienced, but bad Lantern pilots are miserable to play against. This could potentially lead to a logistical, ban-related concern for the deck. It's also a huge MTGO concern, where inexperienced Lantern pilots waste even more time on a clocked match.
If Lantern sees a ban in the future, I believe it will be for the above narrative: good matchups, many players switch to it, many of those Lantern newcomers waste lots of time and cause paper/MTGO logistical issues. We're not there yet (UW Control caused more draws at the PT than Lantern), but I can see this happening as more people realize how much skill they can leverage on it.
EDIT: As for immediate predictions for Monday, I'm at a solid "no bans," a plausible BBE unban, and maaaybe a JTMS or SFM (edit2) unban.
As much as I hope so, I cannot hold out hope.
Spirits
I'd say JTMS and SFM are equally likely/unlikely (edited post to reflect that). We know Wizards discussed unbanning ideas around October, and I think those cards both theoretically seem safe-ish in the October 2017 Modern snapshot. BBE definitely looked safe, so it's a clear frontrunner. JTMS is a bit of a question mark, because blue-based decks are viable but still less viable than other options, but are good enough that JTMS might be backbreaking. Same with SFM; a lot of the decks that could run her are decent and it's unclear if she pushes them over the top. So maybe Wizards has some internal testing that suggested these cards would be safe, and maybe they don't have it and it's just BBE.
Also, isn't the title for this thread wrong? B&R isn't 2/10
We should have a rename into "State of the Meta (Next B&R: Feb 12nd 2018)". Helps with the date format too
What I want; no bans, unban splinter twin and BBE.
What I preict: no bans, unban BBE.
Assuming it is the case that most rounds in a huge event go to time because somewhere out there in the dozens and dozens of matchups is a control mirror or a midrange slogfest, what difference does lantern being popular make? The rounds still go to time... okay... that would be no change. I feel like people are conflating lantern with eggs on this which seems wrong. The similarity between lantern and eggs is that they are artifact decks that are boring as **** to play against and have annoying win conditions.
Eggs would get to time and get 2 or 3 chances to sacrifice and recur a bunch of artifacts trying to combo, taking 20 minutes. Lantern gets to time and goes "draw, go" each turn. I do not see lantern's 5 turns ever taking an inordinate amount of time, certainly no more than jund or jeskai control or whatever.
TLDR; Lantern's individual turns are no worse than a midrange or control deck and are often way faster (draw-go). Lantern does not present a logistics issue because its last 5 turns cannot be excessively long.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
There are also inexperienced players who may take longer to make decisions on what to mill, but I'd argue that is probably more helpful to the opponent, giving them greater odds of drawing an out.
The only way this is a problem is if rounds rarely actually go to time which I find hard to believe. As mentioned, every 30+ player prerelease I've gone to has pretty much every single round go to time. I assume tournaments with hundreds of players in the room, someone somewhere will usually go to time.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
But I could be wrong. Perhaps every round goes to time anyway, so it really doesn't matter much what happens specifically in the Lantern match. You would really have to ask someone who has judged a GP before. I know some of those judges, but not enough to ask them right now. Personally, I feel that the Lantern match at turns will take longer than the other average match. Many other matches that go to time are pretty much decided, so players are much more likely to scoop, whereas a Lantern match at turns will most likely end as a tie. Opponents simply don't give in to a perceived horrible deck! Not to mention, a lot of players try Lantern and they themselves are very inexperienced. This bodes poorly for finishing on time. (Mind you, it's nothing like Eggs. The only comparison is actually going to time, but not the TIME that it takes IN turns.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)THAT takes skill. Indeed. Skill....
/Sarcasm
I think there's a misconception that logistical issues only mean Eggs-style long turns. This isn't true. Top posed logistical issues of a different nature, as evidenced in its Legacy banning statement during April 2017. Specifically, Wizards had this to say about the card:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24
This does not apply to veteran Lantern players who are generally efficient with their turns. But it definitely applies to inexperienced Lantern players who have numerous activations to manage that in turn lead to tournament delays. Matches may not be concluding in a timely fashion when Lantern pilots are slowly puzzling through their lock pieces. Again, I don't think we've seen this issue yet because most Lantern players are very experienced with the deck and know shortcuts and how to quickly move through their steps. But as the deck takes off and we see more players trying it in major tournament settings, we may see worse players bog down games and lead to similar tournament delays.
Tron is my primary deck, and I assure you, something fishy is going on if they have t3 Karn more than maybe half of the games. T4 is pretty common, but 3 is the perfect hand.
And may I just suggest something really quick? If Tron is 60% of your meta, build Ad Nauseum and collect the prize support until they play something else.
People have generally disliked Lantern as a deck since it first became a deck. Watching others suffer (either on camera or in person) is one thing, but the novelty of its unique gameplay wears off quickly when you actually have to play against it yourself. It's the epitome of frustrating and miserable gameplay that promotes terrible experiences for most people involved. These kinds of decks are usually not a problem if they exist in the fringe or have several natural predators. But when it works its way up to winning multiple GPs and a PT, then we have to question whether or not we want this to be a face of the format.
It's not a knee-jerk reaction for people to be hating on Lantern or wanting something banned. It's justifiable and credible when faced with the results it has achieved, the kind of consistency and resilience it holds, and the utter horrible and unfun experience it produces. In the past, wining and consistency were already enough for a ban. Lantern has the added stigma of being awful to play against and extremely slow in the hands of lesser skilled pilots.
Now, will something be banned from it? Probably not. But I would not at all be surprised to see something hit Monday. If something is not hit Monday and it wins any other event in the near future, I expect a ban following that performance.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate