Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Today was completely unsurprising as we have known about how it was going to go for about a year now...
As for everyone asking about the thread rules, they are being considered for change directly post PT but pre-GP. If you have any questions/comments/concerns please PM the mod team. Other than that happy posting!
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Let's home play design fixes this mess and we get to see more modern playable cards as well as no more standard (or modern) bans
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Let's home play design fixes this mess and we get to see more modern playable cards as well as no more standard (or modern) bans
Well said. Standard design is laughably bad at this point. I fully expect major changes due to the crazy volume of bans, the bad press, and the format's terrible attendance and coverage. Dollars speak and the playerbase has spoken loudly this year. Here's hoping for better and more powerful cards coming down the 2018 pipeline.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Let's home play design fixes this mess and we get to see more modern playable cards as well as no more standard (or modern) bans
Well said. Standard design is laughably bad at this point. I fully expect major changes due to the crazy volume of bans, the bad press, and the format's terrible attendance and coverage. Dollars speak and the playerbase has spoken loudly this year. Here's hoping for better and more powerful cards coming down the 2018 pipeline.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
This is just so incredibly false. Multiple cards from almost every Standard set enter Modern, and about one in every three expansion marks a major shake-up in the format. Lists of them have been published time and again in this very thread (series).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
This is a fair objection and I think we probably meet in the middle. I don't want 7-8 cards deliberately tailored for Modern per set. That would get crazy a little too fast. I just want a Modern-tailored inclusion or two in every set, ideally desired reprints or cool new cards to power up lagging archetypes. Examples include the Wasteland variant I've discussed before, something like Gempalm Incinerator, Patron Wizard, Prohibit, Engineered Plague, Astral Slide, Prophetic Bolt, Containment Priest, etc. There's a lot of options out there, even if someone disagrees with a particular card on that list. We don't need all of them at once. Just 1-2 deliberate bones for Modern every time. Right now, I suspect most of those cards would be inappropriate for Standard for a variety of reasons, so something needs to give before they are okay.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
This is just so incredibly false. Multiple cards from almost every Standard set enter Modern, and about one in every three expansion marks a major shake-up in the format. Lists of them have been published time and again in this very thread (series).
Indeed, I've laid this out a number of times for others.
Just looking at our Tier 1 here.
Humans - A thing due to a recent set.
Eldrazi - Enough said.
Storm - Baral
Vizier Company - Recent sets.
Burn - Eidolon, Atarkas, Destructive Revelry and Swiftspear, are what pushed to keep that in Tier 1.
UWR Queller - Its in the name.
And thats just Tier 1 decks that are obviously impacted, I'm sure if I went into each thread, I would see cards from recent sets.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
The format was "U/W Control or bust" in the same way Modern right now is "Affinity or bust". In other words, not at all. Like Affinity, it was a good deck, but it was only one good deck among many others.
I mean, if a serious influx of cards in Modern brings back something like INN/RTR Standard, then by all means do it! That might have been the most diverse Standard format in the last decade!
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
This is just so incredibly false. Multiple cards from almost every Standard set enter Modern, and about one in every three expansion marks a major shake-up in the format. Lists of them have been published time and again in this very thread (series).
So in the last three blocks (not counting Ixalan yet), you have a bunch of cards used in fringe strats, with a couple solid Modern additions (Push, Amalgam, Brutality, Baral, Thalia's LT, Spell Queller, Flayer). 7 cards in three full blocks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
This is just so incredibly false. Multiple cards from almost every Standard set enter Modern, and about one in every three expansion marks a major shake-up in the format. Lists of them have been published time and again in this very thread (series).
So in the last three blocks (not counting Ixalan yet), you have a bunch of cards used in fringe strats, with a couple solid Modern additions (Push, Amalgam, Brutality, Baral, Thalia's LT, Spell Queller, Flayer). 7 cards in three full blocks.
Hrm... I can think of a few more:
Eldritch Moon: Emrakul
Kaladesh: Cathartic Reunion, Ceremonious Rejection, enemy fastlands
Aether Revolt: Whir of Invention, Spire of Industry
Hour of Devastation: Hour of Promise
Admittedly, a number are limited to just one deck. Still, the fastlands were pretty impactful.
Do we need to go through every Tier 1 and 2 deck list? Yes, MULTIPLE cards (aka 1+) are coming into Modern from almost every set.
Only 1 or 2 are coming through every set, with the exception of powerful lands, which wasn't the point of my post.
One or two cards coming through each set on average, and yet Standard has seen more bans now than any time since Mirrodin 1. And you expect more extremely powerful, Modern-relevant strength cards are going to come through?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
One tweet we all shall be loving (and especially Sheridan, cheers!) is this:
Patrick Sullivan
@BasicMountain
I wish the official discussion spoke more to a framework of "what is fun?" rather than the specific percentage points of format balance.
Aaron Forsythe
@mtgaaron
Fun is always front of mind, but it is so subjective and rarely as persuasive as hard data.
When it comes to the discussion of "cards entering Modern" I believe it's correct to categorize and determine their prevalence as individual cards and not based on the inclusion of each and every decklist. MTGGoldfish has that exact tool, it can show us the top 50 Creatures, Spells, Lands. When it comes to that specific category, we are talking Tarmogoyf, Death's Shadow, Snapcaster Mage level creatures, and Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize style spells. The lands in this analysis is going to be difficult to navigate and shift as to what's best, but it will obviously tailor towards the Fetch/Shock Manabase.
I don't think we should be striving for that many Fatal Push's, having one card per set that impacts Modern in a tier 1.5ish way is satisfactory for me. The less money I spend the better.
1-2 cards each set is a vast underestimation of what is going on. Many more find places. They might be more niche, but they find places. Like Hope of Ghirapur in Affinity. If you focus on a few Tier 1 decks, then yes, 1 card will be delivered to those, but many more shape new decks and strengthen the lower decks of the format potentially diversifying the format even more. The rate by which cards enter the Modern card pool is good. Not too few, not too many.
1-2 cards each set is a vast underestimation of what is going on. Many more find places. They might be more niche, but they find places. Like Hope of Ghirapur in Affinity. If you focus on a few Tier 1 decks, then yes, 1 card will be delivered to those, but many more shape new decks and strengthen the lower decks of the format potentially diversifying the format even more. The rate by which cards enter the Modern card pool is good. Not too few, not too many.
I completely agree, for example I believe Kumena will change how Merfolk build forever, but that doesn't mean it's a top 50 creature by most standards.
One tweet we all shall be loving (and especially Sheridan, cheers!) is this:
Patrick Sullivan
@BasicMountain
I wish the official discussion spoke more to a framework of "what is fun?" rather than the specific percentage points of format balance.
Aaron Forsythe
@mtgaaron
Fun is always front of mind, but it is so subjective and rarely as persuasive as hard data.
What a wonderful Tweet. His re-Tweet is great too. Very happy to see Wizards prefers this objective, data-driven route than the subjective biases preferred by some pros and players. If this continues to be a guiding philosophy for 2018, Modern will be in good shape. I am already heartened by the last year, which saw zero bans despite extensive and regular ban mania by vocal subsets of the community.
Which would be a more acceptable answer if they'd actually give us the data.
Our knowledge of that data doesn't change the data, so we shouldn't need that data in our hands to be happy that Wizards uses it. That said, Wizards' allegation that more MTGO data leads to solved formats is ridiculous. Solved formats lead to solved formats; see Standard. I would be happy if Wizards just returned to all the published 5-0 lists and a full Day 2 breakdown for major events. Bonus points for a full Day 1 breakdown as well and extending T32 to T64. I don't think we need regular MWP data, even if it would be nice. Healthy formats got along just fine for 20-30 years without MWP data in our hands. But more lists and a greater sense of the metagame would be helpful.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Let's home play design fixes this mess and we get to see more modern playable cards as well as no more standard (or modern) bans
Well said. Standard design is laughably bad at this point. I fully expect major changes due to the crazy volume of bans, the bad press, and the format's terrible attendance and coverage. Dollars speak and the playerbase has spoken loudly this year. Here's hoping for better and more powerful cards coming down the 2018 pipeline.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
UW control dominated the format right after rotation because everyone was playing zombies. Other tier 1 decks that developed were Jund, Gruul Aggro, Prime Speaker, Naya Aggro, and most dominating was Junk reanimator. Instead of banning cards in standard because Reanimator was too powerful, they printed a modern all-star in Scavenging Ooze. I played humans and Bg control during the time and won FNMs, despite neither even being tier 2.
I was super excited about the enemy fastlands being printed and drafted kaledesh heavily because of that. With RTR coming around again they have a perfect opportunity to print modern playable cards:
-a Vraska planeswalker that cost 3 or 4 mana.
-uncounterable spells for the guilds in gatecrash.
-creatures that cost 1 hybrid mana for the guilds in gatecrash.
-a reprint of the shocklands.
-a reprint of Bob or lightning helix.
-some modern playable counterspell from the blue guilds. Maybe it cost 2 and has a drawback related to the other color or it costs 3 and does something else related to the other color.
They said they’ll look at modern heavily, so I’m hoping that means we get a BBE unban.
Do we need to go through every Tier 1 and 2 deck list? Yes, MULTIPLE cards (aka 1+) are coming into Modern from almost every set.
Only 1 or 2 are coming through every set, with the exception of powerful lands, which wasn't the point of my post.
One or two cards coming through each set on average, and yet Standard has seen more bans now than any time since Mirrodin 1. And you expect more extremely powerful, Modern-relevant strength cards are going to come through?
What are you talking about, I don't expect anything but what I said.
Just because cards are not Eldrazi levels of impacting does not mean we do not get new cards that see play.
This narrative comes up often enough, I'll break it down later today so I have a canned response to shut it down.
Wizards has to balance printing new modern-playables with avoiding power creep. 1cmc discard is a good example: there's little reason to run more than 8 cards with the effect, so any new playable 1cmc discard spell would have to replace Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. It's only expected that as time passes we'll see fewer new modern-playables because more modern-playables exist after each set.
Be that as it may, there is design space that introduces new cards, in nearly every set.
Thats the point of contension, and its a false narrative that 'Standard cannot impact Modern', when perfectly safe Standard cards, can and DO have major impacts on Modern.
Wizards has to balance printing new modern-playables with avoiding power creep. 1cmc discard is a good example: there's little reason to run more than 8 cards with the effect, so any new playable 1cmc discard spell would have to replace Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. It's only expected that as time passes we'll see fewer new modern-playables because more modern-playables exist after each set.
Any time you add a card to the format, you're replacing another card (unless it creates a new deck). I actually think having some more discard options would be a good thing. It would give people choices between running say Thoughseize and if they can actually use the lifeloss, vs using a safer but less powerful option. For example, Despise is on the cusp of being playable right now, a tweaked version of that with a little more power could go a long way in the format.
Be that as it may, there is design space that introduces new cards, in nearly every set.
Thats the point of contension, and its a false narrative that 'Standard cannot impact Modern', when perfectly safe Standard cards, can and DO have major impacts on Modern.
All of the above had more than an impact, they essentially defined Modern for periods of time.
I feel certain card can be done to impact modern and legacy just fine and being in standard ie Fatal push but some cards wont as certain card roles have a much higher threshold of power that they need to impact the eternal formats. See turn 1 discard or counterspells.
True, there likely wont be a Lightning Bolt replacement any time soon...but that isnt the point.
I'm not done yet, but here is just a list from TIER ONE since Theros. I've tried to not repeat.
Again, this is JUST Tier 1, and cards since Theros (inclusive), and if anyone cares to look, some of these are the cards that actually propelled these decks to Tier 1, or created the decks in the first place.
Lets stop with the 'Standard Cards do not get into Modern'. Its not just false, its demonstrably a lie.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the January 15, 2018 B&R Announcement:
No changes
Next B&R Announcement:
February 12, 2018
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As for everyone asking about the thread rules, they are being considered for change directly post PT but pre-GP. If you have any questions/comments/concerns please PM the mod team. Other than that happy posting!
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Let's home play design fixes this mess and we get to see more modern playable cards as well as no more standard (or modern) bans
Well said. Standard design is laughably bad at this point. I fully expect major changes due to the crazy volume of bans, the bad press, and the format's terrible attendance and coverage. Dollars speak and the playerbase has spoken loudly this year. Here's hoping for better and more powerful cards coming down the 2018 pipeline.
I don't get this line of logic. Very few standard cards ever impact Modern. The ones that do are no-brainers (Allied Fetches), or extremely powerful (Fatal Push).
If you're asking for seven or eight eternally playable cards in every standard set, you're asking for a standard that would also be completely unplayable, unless you magically got them to all slot into different standard decks. The last time we got a serious influx of cards in Modern (INN/RTR), the standard format was U/W Control or bust. I know a lot of players enjoyed that format because you could bring U/W Control to any FNM and be assured a decent finish, but I doubt that would fly today with the stricter ban policy.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
This is a fair objection and I think we probably meet in the middle. I don't want 7-8 cards deliberately tailored for Modern per set. That would get crazy a little too fast. I just want a Modern-tailored inclusion or two in every set, ideally desired reprints or cool new cards to power up lagging archetypes. Examples include the Wasteland variant I've discussed before, something like Gempalm Incinerator, Patron Wizard, Prohibit, Engineered Plague, Astral Slide, Prophetic Bolt, Containment Priest, etc. There's a lot of options out there, even if someone disagrees with a particular card on that list. We don't need all of them at once. Just 1-2 deliberate bones for Modern every time. Right now, I suspect most of those cards would be inappropriate for Standard for a variety of reasons, so something needs to give before they are okay.
Indeed, I've laid this out a number of times for others.
Just looking at our Tier 1 here.
Humans - A thing due to a recent set.
Eldrazi - Enough said.
Storm - Baral
Vizier Company - Recent sets.
Burn - Eidolon, Atarkas, Destructive Revelry and Swiftspear, are what pushed to keep that in Tier 1.
UWR Queller - Its in the name.
And thats just Tier 1 decks that are obviously impacted, I'm sure if I went into each thread, I would see cards from recent sets.
Spirits
I mean, if a serious influx of cards in Modern brings back something like INN/RTR Standard, then by all means do it! That might have been the most diverse Standard format in the last decade!
Multiple cards?
Amonkhet: Harsh Mentor (SB) Vizier of Remedies
Hour of Devastation: Nothing
Kaladesh: Chandra (sort of), Torrential Gearhulk (Sort of)
Aether Revolt: Walking Ballista, Fatal Push, Baral, Sram (Sort of)
Shadows: Thalia's LT, Traverse (Sort of), Prized Amalgam, Thraben Inspector (Sort of),
Eldritch Moon: Collective Brutality, Grim Flayer, Spell Queller, Thalia (sort of)
So in the last three blocks (not counting Ixalan yet), you have a bunch of cards used in fringe strats, with a couple solid Modern additions (Push, Amalgam, Brutality, Baral, Thalia's LT, Spell Queller, Flayer). 7 cards in three full blocks.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Eldritch Moon: Emrakul
Kaladesh: Cathartic Reunion, Ceremonious Rejection, enemy fastlands
Aether Revolt: Whir of Invention, Spire of Industry
Hour of Devastation: Hour of Promise
Admittedly, a number are limited to just one deck. Still, the fastlands were pretty impactful.
Spirits
Only 1 or 2 are coming through every set, with the exception of powerful lands, which wasn't the point of my post.
One or two cards coming through each set on average, and yet Standard has seen more bans now than any time since Mirrodin 1. And you expect more extremely powerful, Modern-relevant strength cards are going to come through?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Which would be a more acceptable answer if they'd actually give us the data.
I don't think we should be striving for that many Fatal Push's, having one card per set that impacts Modern in a tier 1.5ish way is satisfactory for me. The less money I spend the better.
To make things simple, I feel Ixalan did a perfect job with Modern, Kitesail Freebooter, Unclaimed Territory and Opt are perfect inclusions.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678I completely agree, for example I believe Kumena will change how Merfolk build forever, but that doesn't mean it's a top 50 creature by most standards.
What a wonderful Tweet. His re-Tweet is great too. Very happy to see Wizards prefers this objective, data-driven route than the subjective biases preferred by some pros and players. If this continues to be a guiding philosophy for 2018, Modern will be in good shape. I am already heartened by the last year, which saw zero bans despite extensive and regular ban mania by vocal subsets of the community.
Our knowledge of that data doesn't change the data, so we shouldn't need that data in our hands to be happy that Wizards uses it. That said, Wizards' allegation that more MTGO data leads to solved formats is ridiculous. Solved formats lead to solved formats; see Standard. I would be happy if Wizards just returned to all the published 5-0 lists and a full Day 2 breakdown for major events. Bonus points for a full Day 1 breakdown as well and extending T32 to T64. I don't think we need regular MWP data, even if it would be nice. Healthy formats got along just fine for 20-30 years without MWP data in our hands. But more lists and a greater sense of the metagame would be helpful.
UW control dominated the format right after rotation because everyone was playing zombies. Other tier 1 decks that developed were Jund, Gruul Aggro, Prime Speaker, Naya Aggro, and most dominating was Junk reanimator. Instead of banning cards in standard because Reanimator was too powerful, they printed a modern all-star in Scavenging Ooze. I played humans and Bg control during the time and won FNMs, despite neither even being tier 2.
I was super excited about the enemy fastlands being printed and drafted kaledesh heavily because of that. With RTR coming around again they have a perfect opportunity to print modern playable cards:
-a Vraska planeswalker that cost 3 or 4 mana.
-uncounterable spells for the guilds in gatecrash.
-creatures that cost 1 hybrid mana for the guilds in gatecrash.
-a reprint of the shocklands.
-a reprint of Bob or lightning helix.
-some modern playable counterspell from the blue guilds. Maybe it cost 2 and has a drawback related to the other color or it costs 3 and does something else related to the other color.
They said they’ll look at modern heavily, so I’m hoping that means we get a BBE unban.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
What are you talking about, I don't expect anything but what I said.
Just because cards are not Eldrazi levels of impacting does not mean we do not get new cards that see play.
This narrative comes up often enough, I'll break it down later today so I have a canned response to shut it down.
Spirits
Be that as it may, there is design space that introduces new cards, in nearly every set.
Thats the point of contension, and its a false narrative that 'Standard cannot impact Modern', when perfectly safe Standard cards, can and DO have major impacts on Modern.
Treasure Cruise
Dig through Time
<Insert Broken Eldrazi Here>
Cathartic Reunion
All of the above had more than an impact, they essentially defined Modern for periods of time.
Spirits
Any time you add a card to the format, you're replacing another card (unless it creates a new deck). I actually think having some more discard options would be a good thing. It would give people choices between running say Thoughseize and if they can actually use the lifeloss, vs using a safer but less powerful option. For example, Despise is on the cusp of being playable right now, a tweaked version of that with a little more power could go a long way in the format.
I feel certain card can be done to impact modern and legacy just fine and being in standard ie Fatal push but some cards wont as certain card roles have a much higher threshold of power that they need to impact the eternal formats. See turn 1 discard or counterspells.
I'm not done yet, but here is just a list from TIER ONE since Theros. I've tried to not repeat.
Again, this is JUST Tier 1, and cards since Theros (inclusive), and if anyone cares to look, some of these are the cards that actually propelled these decks to Tier 1, or created the decks in the first place.
Lets stop with the 'Standard Cards do not get into Modern'. Its not just false, its demonstrably a lie.
Vizier Company
Storm
UWR
GxTron
TitanShift
GDS
Humans
ETron
Affinity
Burn
Spirits