I think modern is actually much faster than legacy but ok
Yup... Totally hate those Turn 0/1 beats in Modern. Pretty hard to take anything you say seriously when you truthfully believe this. You have a small point when it comes to hand disruption that is completely and utterly ruined by this gem.
On average legacy games go much longer. Sure there are some t0/1 kills but that isn't the norm and if you think it is idk what legacy events you're playing but wouldn't the meta adjust extremely fast?
I'm all about game quality and the average game of modern improved for me when zooicide, infect left the meta. Diversity is nice and all but modern is already fast, and these decks made the format faster so I have very little sympathy for these decks
I agree that at that time and in those configurations, those decks made the format worse. It's just sad that they couldn't have dealt with the situation with more finesse, surgical precision, or subtlety. I may not personally like Infect, but it's sad to see it essentially wiped from existence. A similar solution could have allowed the people who loved those decks and spent hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on them to maintain their relevance. Infect is deader than dead, and it hurts me personally to see yet another deck destroyed on a poor ban decision, even if it isn't my own.
The entire point of bans, according to Forsythe himself, is to weaken decks without killing them completely. That was a massive and utter failure on multiple accounts with Gitaxian Probe. This ban needlessly killed multiple decks because A) WOTC chose the wrong ban target and B) WOTC has no idea how to evaluate new cards (or worse, they don't care to try). Most of this *SHOULD* be helped with the PD team in the future.
I was worried about Eldrazi Tron being pushed out of the meta. Played two Affinity decks at a PTTQ, that matchup is atrocious and needs a natural tron into nut threats to win
Grixis Shadow is really just becoming another great deck instead of THE deck now in modern, it's not dominating tournaments with sweeping results.
This vingevine deck could really become a thing, it's fighting on an aggro axis and graveyard combo.
I'm all about game quality and the average game of modern improved for me when zooicide, infect left the meta. Diversity is nice and all but modern is already fast, and these decks made the format faster so I have very little sympathy for these decks
I agree that at that time and in those configurations, those decks made the format worse. It's just sad that they couldn't have dealt with the situation with more finesse, surgical precision, or subtlety. I may not personally like Infect, but it's sad to see it essentially wiped from existence. A similar solution could have allowed the people who loved those decks and spent hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on them to maintain their relevance. Infect is deader than dead, and it hurts me personally to see yet another deck destroyed on a poor ban decision, even if it isn't my own.
The entire point of bans, according to Forsythe himself, is to weaken decks without killing them completely. That was a massive and utter failure on multiple accounts with Gitaxian Probe. This ban needlessly killed multiple decks because A) WOTC chose the wrong ban target and B) WOTC has no idea how to evaluate new cards (or worse, they don't care to try). Most of this *SHOULD* be helped with the PD team in the future.
I think you should stop here, the probe banning, while a little surprising, ended up being a fantastic ban that made modern healthier.
I'm all about game quality and the average game of modern improved for me when zooicide, infect left the meta. Diversity is nice and all but modern is already fast, and these decks made the format faster so I have very little sympathy for these decks
I agree that at that time and in those configurations, those decks made the format worse. It's just sad that they couldn't have dealt with the situation with more finesse, surgical precision, or subtlety. I may not personally like Infect, but it's sad to see it essentially wiped from existence. A similar solution could have allowed the people who loved those decks and spent hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on them to maintain their relevance. Infect is deader than dead, and it hurts me personally to see yet another deck destroyed on a poor ban decision, even if it isn't my own.
The entire point of bans, according to Forsythe himself, is to weaken decks without killing them completely. That was a massive and utter failure on multiple accounts with Gitaxian Probe. This ban needlessly killed multiple decks because A) WOTC chose the wrong ban target and B) WOTC has no idea how to evaluate new cards (or worse, they don't care to try). Most of this *SHOULD* be helped with the PD team in the future.
I think you should stop here, the probe banning, while a little surprising, ended up being a fantastic ban that made modern healthier.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that nearly the exact same meta outcome could have been accomplished without having to outright kill multiple decks. This isn't a matter of not making a ban, it's a matter of accomplishing the same ban goals without needless splash damage. Again, it just lines up with a fairly consistent trend of sloppy and lazy decisions. I'm not saying the decks shouldn't have received a ban, but that it could have been handled so much better than it was. I would not call killing multiple decks, including several completely innocent ones, a "fantastic" decision. I feel the need to keep explaining myself because the most common response over and over is "BUT HEALTHY!" which totally ignores everything I said.
Besides, being healthier than 2016 is not something difficult or praise-worthy. 2016 was a dumpster fire nightmare of misery, and literally anything other than total format implosion would have been healthier than that.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that nearly the exact same meta outcome could have been accomplished without having to outright kill multiple decks. This isn't a matter of not making a ban, it's a matter of accomplishing the same ban goals without needless splash damage. Again, it just lines up with a fairly consistent trend of sloppy and lazy decisions. I'm not saying the decks shouldn't have received a ban, but that it could have been handled so much better than it was. I would not call killing multiple decks, including several completely innocent ones, a "fantastic" decision.
Besides, being healthier than 2016 is not something difficult or praise-worthy. 2016 was a dumpster fire nightmare of misery, and literally anything other than total format implosion would have been healthier than that.
What would you have banned instead? Become Immense? This would certainly have nerfed DSZ and Infect, but would have led to a post-banning Modern where Storm and GDS both had Probe. This likely would have resulted in both a Storm- and GDS-targeted ban, which would have been 2-3 net bans instead of just 1. I think Wizards did enough homework on this ban to create a more positive format and I don't really know what you would have rather seen happen.
I don't like armchair quarter-backing players, but this current game is a great example of where play errors can disguise themselves as variance. On the one hand, Jim Davis and GB Tron did not draw Tower or a sweeper and did face down a fast Empty the Warrens for 8. On the other hand, he made two major misplays over two turns that sealed a loss. First, he didn't Brutality to Duress and take the Remand. This meant his eventual Ugin, which he had in his hand the whole time, was Remanded and he lost. Second, on the turn following the bad Brutality, he cracked Relic with the wrong mana and then couldn't Scrying into Tower into Karn to try and bait the Remand. Instead, he had to play Forest to cast Scrying and was a turn behind on Urzatron.
Davis knew these misplays in hindsight (you could see it in his face) and I don't blame him for those misplays. Even so, I do think this is a prime example of where a lesser player (or spectator) would blame matchup lottery/variance when the real errors were in gameplay.
Current T8:
Jeskai Control
Affinity
Eldrazi Tron
GDS
Merfolk
UR Storm
UR Storm
Unknown
I think you should stop here, the probe banning, while a little surprising, ended up being a fantastic ban that made modern healthier.
I don't agree with this. Wizards didn't even want to try to see the impact of Fatal Push on the format. It's as if they were saying that Infect NEEDED Fatal Push printed AND a banning of Gitaxian Probe when players knew how to beat the deck. They banned it preemptively and there's simply some people that are not going to agree with these types of bans. It is similar to Dig Through Time in that they banned it too early. The only difference is that we knew how good Dig would probably be after the Cruise/Pod bannings. Despite this, many players here were pretty mad. I personally was indifferent, about 50/50 on Dig. I could see Wizards not even giving it one ban cycle, but on the other hand I saw the true power of the card.
To put it more clearly, they simply banned Gitaxian Probe before even seeing the impact of Fatal Push. Why not wait 1 ban cycle? What are they, like every 2 months now? They're so often nowadays that even if there was a broken deck, someone could play it what, 4 times a week for 2 months? That's if they have no life and are living off of lottery winnings and live in an area with that many tournaments. It just screams, "too cautionary" and it's one of the reasons many players don't like this format still.
*Don't get me wrong. Wizards still figured Gitaxian Probe can see if the opponent has Fatal Push in hand, but the fact that they didn't even want to wait a whole freaking 2 months to see for sure.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
You're not Monday Quarterbacking it, they were clear mistakes, Twitch chat knew it, the commentators knew it, and most players knew it, Jim very was kicking himself too
Magic gets mentally fatiguing after a few games, especially with money on the line mistakes happen.
I'm not happy to see all these storm decks on camera, just because to me it's the epitome of a ship passing in the night, BUT, I am happy that a combo deck is doing just fine
I very much expected a graveyard deck to spike this tournament, just because it seemed obvious people would shave on GY hate, and the people next leveling the next levelers would do this. I was certain either Storm or Dredge would be doing well.
If the third deck isn't storm, the top 8 looks decent, fair control, aggro, midrange-range big mana, tempo midrange, tempo aggro, combo.
Can't be upset by that. Affinity had the most top day 2's, I saw a ton of Affinity yesterday and Shadow at a PPTQ, looks accurate here.
I think E-Tron is going to start getting pushed out, has some difficulty beating non GY combo, and aggro creatures that go wide that also go bigger are a nightmare for the deck.
Grixis is still the best deck, but definitely not feeling or looking oppressive anymore, looks like it's just another intergrated deck in modern now
Jund is looking super, super dead to me, while watching Venginevine pumping out Hollows and Mandrils I'm like, "yup, deck may just be outdated now".
Eldrazi Tron
Eldrazi Tron
UR Storm
UR Storm
Jeskai Control
Affinity
Grixis DS
And quarterfinal matchups with predictions:
Merfolk vs. Storm (Merfolk)
Eldrazi Tron vs. Affinity (Affinity)
Eldrazi Tron vs. Storm (Eldrazi Tron)
Jeskai Control vs. GDS (GDS)
I'm going with Merfolk over Storm because Duffee obliterated the competition with 0 byes (40 points after 15 rounds!), which suggests he's running hot and clearly knows his deck and the field. He also beat Storm 2-0 in round 12.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Affinity is pretty universally regarded as a favorite against E-Tron, which has played out in individual games, articles/primers, and the overall metagame (notably the big Affinity uptick in the last 1-2 months). But then Affinity gets rolled 0-2 without even getting a game. Definitely an upset.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that nearly the exact same meta outcome could have been accomplished without having to outright kill multiple decks. This isn't a matter of not making a ban, it's a matter of accomplishing the same ban goals without needless splash damage. Again, it just lines up with a fairly consistent trend of sloppy and lazy decisions. I'm not saying the decks shouldn't have received a ban, but that it could have been handled so much better than it was. I would not call killing multiple decks, including several completely innocent ones, a "fantastic" decision.
Besides, being healthier than 2016 is not something difficult or praise-worthy. 2016 was a dumpster fire nightmare of misery, and literally anything other than total format implosion would have been healthier than that.
What would you have banned instead? Become Immense? This would certainly have nerfed DSZ and Infect, but would have led to a post-banning Modern where Storm and GDS both had Probe. This likely would have resulted in both a Storm- and GDS-targeted ban, which would have been 2-3 net bans instead of just 1. I think Wizards did enough homework on this ban to create a more positive format and I don't really know what you would have rather seen happen.
I disagree. Storm was dwelling down in tier 2-3, causing no problems, and GDS didn't actually exist in its current form for several months. Perhaps it would be too strong, perhaps not. We'll never know for sure because we never got to see it. And the price we pay for "just in case" was killing multiple innocent decks.
I do not think Wizards "did their homework," but instead just continued their longstanding grudge against cheap blue cards that draw cards.
Affinity is pretty universally regarded as a favorite against E-Tron, which has played out in individual games, articles/primers, and the overall metagame (notably the big Affinity uptick in the last 1-2 months). But then Affinity gets rolled 0-2 without even getting a game. Definitely an upset.
Affinity vs ETron seems to come entirely down to whether or not ETron has Chalice of the Void in their opening hand.
Sweet Jeskai Control win over GDS. Unfortunate Jessup misplay with a Snapcaster resulted in a missed Thoughtseize opportunity, but it was well-won by Rossum.
Sweet Jeskai Control win over GDS. Unfortunate Jessup misplay with a Snapcaster resulted in a missed Thoughtseize opportunity, but it was well-won by Rossum.
Yeah, that was definitely a mistake and a setback, but hardly back-breaking. The game still went on significantly longer and he died with something like 7 lands in play and another 3 in hand. At that point, all you can do is shrug (which he did).
Merfolk vs. E-Tron (Merfolk)
Jeskai Control vs. E-Tron (E-Tron)
Merfolk has a decent matcup against E-Tron generally, and I'm positive Duffee wouldn't have brought Merfolk to this tournament if he didn't think he could win this matchup all weekend. Between that suggestion and his record this weekend, I'm feeling the fishes.
Jeskai Control is awesome but I just don't see Jeskai cards lining up well against E-Tron. Bad removal options and countermagic losing to Cavern is problematic, and E-Tron will still get random wins to nut draws.
Affinity is pretty universally regarded as a favorite against E-Tron, which has played out in individual games, articles/primers, and the overall metagame (notably the big Affinity uptick in the last 1-2 months). But then Affinity gets rolled 0-2 without even getting a game. Definitely an upset.
I misread the results. Not watching it now. Keeps freezing my computer.
On another note, a former Grand Prix winner with Merfolk (over a kid with Affinity) played me yesterday in Round 1 of a PPTQ. I was gearing up for Merfolk when I saw the pairings. (I've played him 3 times before at local events.) Well, he was playing Death and Taxes. After he beat me 2-0, we talked for a bit. He said that he doesn't feel that Merfolk was too good in the current meta, which surprised me. I didn't dig further, but it's interesting to see Merfolk at the top of this tournament. We had played 3 times previously, all Bogles vs. Merfolk matches.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
On average legacy games go much longer. Sure there are some t0/1 kills but that isn't the norm and if you think it is idk what legacy events you're playing but wouldn't the meta adjust extremely fast?
The entire point of bans, according to Forsythe himself, is to weaken decks without killing them completely. That was a massive and utter failure on multiple accounts with Gitaxian Probe. This ban needlessly killed multiple decks because A) WOTC chose the wrong ban target and B) WOTC has no idea how to evaluate new cards (or worse, they don't care to try). Most of this *SHOULD* be helped with the PD team in the future.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jeskai Control
Affinity
Eldrazi Tron
Merfolk
Grixis DS
Grixis DS and GW Company currently duking it out for another slot.Grixis Shadow is really just becoming another great deck instead of THE deck now in modern, it's not dominating tournaments with sweeping results.
This vingevine deck could really become a thing, it's fighting on an aggro axis and graveyard combo.
I think you should stop here, the probe banning, while a little surprising, ended up being a fantastic ban that made modern healthier.
The point I'm trying to make though, is that nearly the exact same meta outcome could have been accomplished without having to outright kill multiple decks. This isn't a matter of not making a ban, it's a matter of accomplishing the same ban goals without needless splash damage. Again, it just lines up with a fairly consistent trend of sloppy and lazy decisions. I'm not saying the decks shouldn't have received a ban, but that it could have been handled so much better than it was. I would not call killing multiple decks, including several completely innocent ones, a "fantastic" decision. I feel the need to keep explaining myself because the most common response over and over is "BUT HEALTHY!" which totally ignores everything I said.
Besides, being healthier than 2016 is not something difficult or praise-worthy. 2016 was a dumpster fire nightmare of misery, and literally anything other than total format implosion would have been healthier than that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
What would you have banned instead? Become Immense? This would certainly have nerfed DSZ and Infect, but would have led to a post-banning Modern where Storm and GDS both had Probe. This likely would have resulted in both a Storm- and GDS-targeted ban, which would have been 2-3 net bans instead of just 1. I think Wizards did enough homework on this ban to create a more positive format and I don't really know what you would have rather seen happen.
Davis knew these misplays in hindsight (you could see it in his face) and I don't blame him for those misplays. Even so, I do think this is a prime example of where a lesser player (or spectator) would blame matchup lottery/variance when the real errors were in gameplay.
Current T8:
Jeskai Control
Affinity
Eldrazi Tron
GDS
Merfolk
UR Storm
UR Storm
Unknown
I don't agree with this. Wizards didn't even want to try to see the impact of Fatal Push on the format. It's as if they were saying that Infect NEEDED Fatal Push printed AND a banning of Gitaxian Probe when players knew how to beat the deck. They banned it preemptively and there's simply some people that are not going to agree with these types of bans. It is similar to Dig Through Time in that they banned it too early. The only difference is that we knew how good Dig would probably be after the Cruise/Pod bannings. Despite this, many players here were pretty mad. I personally was indifferent, about 50/50 on Dig. I could see Wizards not even giving it one ban cycle, but on the other hand I saw the true power of the card.
To put it more clearly, they simply banned Gitaxian Probe before even seeing the impact of Fatal Push. Why not wait 1 ban cycle? What are they, like every 2 months now? They're so often nowadays that even if there was a broken deck, someone could play it what, 4 times a week for 2 months? That's if they have no life and are living off of lottery winnings and live in an area with that many tournaments. It just screams, "too cautionary" and it's one of the reasons many players don't like this format still.
*Don't get me wrong. Wizards still figured Gitaxian Probe can see if the opponent has Fatal Push in hand, but the fact that they didn't even want to wait a whole freaking 2 months to see for sure.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Magic gets mentally fatiguing after a few games, especially with money on the line mistakes happen.
I'm not happy to see all these storm decks on camera, just because to me it's the epitome of a ship passing in the night, BUT, I am happy that a combo deck is doing just fine
I very much expected a graveyard deck to spike this tournament, just because it seemed obvious people would shave on GY hate, and the people next leveling the next levelers would do this. I was certain either Storm or Dredge would be doing well.
If the third deck isn't storm, the top 8 looks decent, fair control, aggro, midrange-range big mana, tempo midrange, tempo aggro, combo.
Can't be upset by that. Affinity had the most top day 2's, I saw a ton of Affinity yesterday and Shadow at a PPTQ, looks accurate here.
I think E-Tron is going to start getting pushed out, has some difficulty beating non GY combo, and aggro creatures that go wide that also go bigger are a nightmare for the deck.
Grixis is still the best deck, but definitely not feeling or looking oppressive anymore, looks like it's just another intergrated deck in modern now
Jund is looking super, super dead to me, while watching Venginevine pumping out Hollows and Mandrils I'm like, "yup, deck may just be outdated now".
Eldrazi Tron
Eldrazi Tron
UR Storm
UR Storm
Jeskai Control
Affinity
Grixis DS
And quarterfinal matchups with predictions:
Merfolk vs. Storm (Merfolk)
Eldrazi Tron vs. Affinity (Affinity)
Eldrazi Tron vs. Storm (Eldrazi Tron)
Jeskai Control vs. GDS (GDS)
I'm going with Merfolk over Storm because Duffee obliterated the competition with 0 byes (40 points after 15 rounds!), which suggests he's running hot and clearly knows his deck and the field. He also beat Storm 2-0 in round 12.
Only one I'm in agreement on is affinty vs. E-tron.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
E-Tron beat Storm 2-0.
E-Tron beat Affinity 2-0 (!!).
Not surprised by the first two results but pretty surprised by the third.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Affinity is pretty universally regarded as a favorite against E-Tron, which has played out in individual games, articles/primers, and the overall metagame (notably the big Affinity uptick in the last 1-2 months). But then Affinity gets rolled 0-2 without even getting a game. Definitely an upset.
I do not think Wizards "did their homework," but instead just continued their longstanding grudge against cheap blue cards that draw cards.
Affinity vs ETron seems to come entirely down to whether or not ETron has Chalice of the Void in their opening hand.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Don't feel bad. I would have made the same predictions.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Yeah, that was definitely a mistake and a setback, but hardly back-breaking. The game still went on significantly longer and he died with something like 7 lands in play and another 3 in hand. At that point, all you can do is shrug (which he did).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jeskai Control vs. E-Tron (E-Tron)
Merfolk has a decent matcup against E-Tron generally, and I'm positive Duffee wouldn't have brought Merfolk to this tournament if he didn't think he could win this matchup all weekend. Between that suggestion and his record this weekend, I'm feeling the fishes.
Jeskai Control is awesome but I just don't see Jeskai cards lining up well against E-Tron. Bad removal options and countermagic losing to Cavern is problematic, and E-Tron will still get random wins to nut draws.
I misread the results. Not watching it now. Keeps freezing my computer.
On another note, a former Grand Prix winner with Merfolk (over a kid with Affinity) played me yesterday in Round 1 of a PPTQ. I was gearing up for Merfolk when I saw the pairings. (I've played him 3 times before at local events.) Well, he was playing Death and Taxes. After he beat me 2-0, we talked for a bit. He said that he doesn't feel that Merfolk was too good in the current meta, which surprised me. I didn't dig further, but it's interesting to see Merfolk at the top of this tournament. We had played 3 times previously, all Bogles vs. Merfolk matches.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'll go back to what I said a month ago and saying that Eldrazi Tron was secretly the best deck in modern
Not so secret anymore. I don't think it'll sustain it though, Affinity is a nightmare matchup