WotC can reprint anything in Modern, so price is kind of irrelevant. Even if they unbanned Jace tomorrow, they could easily reprint him in the next masters. Really, he could be shoe horned into the next Eternal, Modern, or whatever masters sets, as long as they toss in some common level answers to make him not completely unbearable in draft settings. That increases demand for their new set, ensuring easy sales while also lowering the price of Jace (which they can't officially acknowledge the secondary market anyways).
I agree with Spsiegel though. Now isn't the time to unban him. The only cards that really seem like they could come back in modern right now are SFM and BBE, but no bans/unbans is likely the route things will go for a while.
But look at what happened after Eternal Master, he is still $75. A masters set print run just isn't enough to drive down the price of such an iconic card that is already a multi format all star and would immediately have a buyout worse that Ancestral Visions. Look at goyf, it took 3 Masters prints to pop the bubble on it. And it's still a card that keeps people from building decks due to its price point. Commander, legacy, vintage, and price memory are keeping JTMS as expensive as it is. If modern got thrown into that mix, it would be insane. Unbanning it, gameplay completely aside, would be terrible for the health of the format.
To hope to keep the price down, they would have to announce a masters set with a higher print run, at standard pack MSRP not $10. Then spoil it in that set as the unban announcement.
Yeah, but he used to be near 100 bucks. After the EMA printing, you could pick him up for around 60 bucks for a decent window of time. Price should never be a factor on whether a card should be legal in the format. Need I remind you that Tarmogoyf was nearly a $200 card for many years and it didn't completely destroy the format?
Again, I agree that now is not a good time for unbanning him, but not for cost reasons.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is fine on many levels. Firstly price, which I agree with wpgstevo and Spsiegel987 that it shouldn't be a consideration. I've seen them as low as $60 and I'm pretty sure some bargaining could net me them for $50-55 easily. I actually was going to buy one for $60 with store credit from losing at a PPTQ in the top 4, but they were out, so I got a bunch of Stoneforge Mystic instead. People who buy them at over $100 are either stupid or have money to burn. Remember, there are people that buy all kinds of things in Magic for all kinds of prices. Most people realize that it wouldn't be all that good, so if they want to pay the exorbitant prices for it, then that's their choice. It's kind of like how I paid $40 each for a playset of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at its height just so I could play Esper Goryo Gifts; not even Standard.
Meta-wise, it doesn't do much other than encourage people to play decks that won't do super well. Eldrazi Tron, for one, will eat these types of decks alive. It is most certainly not too strong for Modern and never has been sadly enough. I would much rather face any deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor than GDS, E Tron, or Titan Shift. Burn is a deck that stomps Jace pretty hard as well. Don't get me wrong. I played with Jace in Standard and it is actually my 2nd favorite Planeswalker only to Tezzeret, the Seeker, but he is definitely fine in the meta. Jace has that "ban" enigma and while there certainly are players who don't realize how powerful Jace is, there are definitely more players that enshrine him as some scary mythological beast if released into Modern. He's not.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yeah, but he used to be near 100 bucks. After the EMA printing, you could pick him up for around 60 bucks for a decent window of time. Price should never be a factor on whether a card should be legal in the format. Need I remind you that Tarmogoyf was nearly a $200 card for many years and it didn't completely destroy the format?
Again, I agree that now is not a good time for unbanning him, but not for cost reasons.
You could argue that cost is also a criteria that cards don't get banned. I wonder how many people will riot if Karn Liberated got banned? If that happens, it will be the most expensive Modern legal card they banned to date. Ever since the inception of the format, correct me if I am wrong but they haven't banned any card over $50 on the secondary market. I'm not including any cards that started out banned from August 2011. Price is definitely a factor in deciding bans, that's probably why Karn Liberated is still legal and so is Tarmogoyf. If you unban JTMS and reban him, I'm sure there will be some radical players rolling up to WOTC HQ irrationally with guns and start raiding the place in Renton, WA. People get stabbed 7 times in an argument over MTG, just think of what an unban and reban would do to some people's mentality.
I don't think JtmS gets ubanned likely ever. He is way more powerful than multiple cards that people wouldn't want off. Plus the entire justification for his banning still holds, he is still a Legacy/Vintage staple.
I don't think JtmS gets ubanned likely ever. He is way more powerful than multiple cards that people wouldn't want off. Plus the entire justification for his banning still holds, he is still a Legacy/Vintage staple.
People way under value him
Cards do different things in different formats though. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were well balanced for Standard’s card pool, while being broken in Legacy and Modern. You can’t always judge a card’s impact on a format by looking at how it affects older formats.
I agree with y'all that in a perfect world price would never affect banlists. But it would be a bad choice for wizards to unban it right now because of it's price and how it would spike.
Also, FCG, what you can buy it for right now doesn't matter in regards to an unban near as much as what the price would be after an unban. And if it got unbanned into modern, the price would be stupid high.
Honestly, Dig Through Time felt borderline broken in standard, the card was outrageous; I cringe when people suggest unbanning Dig Through Time. I had to play Mardu just to outplay the blue players, and that was still a grind. i'd love a world where Goblin Rabblemaster was good in modern.
I think Jace is just too much risk, I really doubt WOTC takes that leap of faith even five years from now
I kinda think SFM is sadly off the table for an unban, Jeskai and UW Control are doing well, and DnT is a good meta call.
I really only think BBE is likely at this time, and that really depends if WOTC wants to boost Jund and if they fear a BBE+AV combo.
Still hearing people say Eldrazi Temple and a Shadow pieces are risky investments--are they?
I don't think JtmS gets ubanned likely ever. He is way more powerful than multiple cards that people wouldn't want off. Plus the entire justification for his banning still holds, he is still a Legacy/Vintage staple.
People way under value him
Cards do different things in different formats though. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were well balanced for Standard’s card pool, while being broken in Legacy and Modern. You can’t always judge a card’s impact on a format by looking at how it affects older formats.
So what your saying is that we should unban Mental Misstep also.
Maybe we should restrict Chalice of the Void too? After all, it's restricted in Vintage so it must be too strong for Modern. /s
All I did was apply the same logic to a different card, if you don't like the logical conclusion that isn't really my problem.
Its also worth noting that the entire justification given by WotC for it being banned has absolutely nothing to do with modern and everything to do with other formats. Same as SFM and MM.
Maybe we should restrict Chalice of the Void too? After all, it's restricted in Vintage so it must be too strong for Modern. /s
All I did was apply the same logic to a different card, if you don't like the logical conclusion that isn't really my problem.
Its also worth noting that the entire justification given by WotC for it being banned has absolutely nothing to do with modern and everything to do with other formats. Same as SFM and MM.
So was I. I'm just saying that saying "x card is broken in x format, therefor it's not okay in Modern" is silly. Legacy has a vastly different format and metagame. It made sense at Modern's inception, but look at Bitterblossom.
I actually agree with you that Jace shouldn't be unbanned, but not because it's "really powerful in legacy". I'm just not a fan of dismissing cards, simply because they're powerful in a different format.
I don't think JTMS should ever be unbanned. Do I think it is too strong for Modern? No. However....
The problem with unbanning JTMS is the price of the card. At the time of writing the cheapest English copy of the card is the EMA version at $75 each (SCG). If you unban JTMS that price will skyrocket from hundreds of thousands of people now wanting playsets of the card to play in their Modern decks. Let's assume that JTMS's price spikes similar to that of Golgari Grave-Troll when it was unbanned (I am being nice, and not using the much more likely price spike of Ancestral Vision as a comparison). Before it was unbanned GGT was $1.50. After being unbanned it immediately spiked to $8, and had an all time high of $14 before being added once again to the Modern Ban List. Currently GGT's price is down to about $5.
So upon being unbanned GGT's price increased by about 500%. If the same happens with JTMS, suddenly it goes from a $75 card to a $375 card, with playsets costing players $1,500. If the trend continues the same, JTMS's all time high price could reach $675 or around 900% It's initial price (again similar to the spikes with GGT).
Now imagine being a player who just spent $1,500 on four cards for your deck. First of all, with that kind of cash you could just buy an entirely separate Modern deck, hell maybe even 2 or 3 of them. How do you feel when Wizards goes, "Well unbanning JTMS was a mistake, we need to add him back to the Ban List." $1,500 down the drain. In a best case scenario JTMS tanks in the same was that GGT did and at the end of the day it's price will be around $225 each. But you'd still be out $150 for each copy of JTMS you bought in this instance.
In conclusion, even though I know my numbers are crazy (they were made deliberately crazy to prove a point, but imagine if they were closer to the numbers of the Ancestral Vision spike where it jumped from an $8 card to $50 (625% increase), the correlation back to JTMS would be a price tag of $470)the fact is that if this were to happen it would literally kill Modern as a format. So many people would leave Modern from pure distaste and anger that in my opinion the format would be completely ruined.
Wizards does not card about secondary market value outside of how much they can make off of reprints in Masters sets. If price was in questions. Goyf would have banned long ago. JTMS is a degenerate card. Leave it banned
Wizards does not card about secondary market value outside of how much they can make off of reprints in Masters sets. If price was in questions. Goyf would have banned long ago. JTMS is a degenerate card. Leave it banned
I think you misunderstood my post.
I wasn't saying JTMS is on the banned list because it is an expensive card. I was saying that it's price tag is a contributing factor to why it won't ever be unbanned.
While I know that Wizards isn't suppose to care about the secondary market, that's only what they have to tell the public.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I feel like you guys are missing the main argument for not unbanning Jace: WU Control is arguably top tier and we know they unban cards to help struggling decks, not to improve top tier ones.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Jace, the Mind Sculptor being a degenerate card, while a Sol Land, or an Ancient Tomb without you taking damage, but for only a specific type of creatures(and the most powerful in the game) is ok is beyond me!
If JTMS is not fine, then cards like Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, or heck even Collected Company are not fine as well.
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor being a degenerate card, while a Sol Land, or an Ancient Tomb without you taking damage, but for only a specific type of creatures(and the most powerful in the game) is ok is beyond me!
If JTMS is not fine, then cards like Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, or heck even Collected Company are not fine as well.
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
Have to agree. Even if I think JTMS is fine, just a strong fully blue Win Con, its not in the same realm as those 2.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor being a degenerate card, while a Sol Land, or an Ancient Tomb without you taking damage, but for only a specific type of creatures(and the most powerful in the game) is ok is beyond me!
If JTMS is not fine, then cards like Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, or heck even Collected Company are not fine as well.
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
JtmS is in a echelon above those.
Have to agree. Even if I think JTMS is fine, just a strong fully blue Win Con, its not in the same realm as those 2.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor being a degenerate card, while a Sol Land, or an Ancient Tomb without you taking damage, but for only a specific type of creatures(and the most powerful in the game) is ok is beyond me!
If JTMS is not fine, then cards like Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, or heck even Collected Company are not fine as well.
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
Have to agree. Even if I think JTMS is fine, just a strong fully blue Win Con, its not in the same realm as those 2.
Does not matter at all. I am not comparing cards. Just saying that JTMS is probably as safe as CoCo or the aforemention cards.
In other words, if CoCo was in the banlist, we would say the same things for that card(too strong in power level/etc). This applies to power level only and nothing else.
A format where fast mana is available in so many forms, but a very powerful 4cmc walker is not, is something that feels silly.
As was the case for Sword of The Meek and Ancestral. A format where Ancestral was banned and so many more powerful cards were legal was laughable. Yet, people there were in this very thread that were saying "Sword Of ThE Meek will mean the end to all of the aggro decks".
Seeing JTMS rotting in the banlist while watching Eldrazi Temple being legal trying to turn 2 TKS feels utterly buffling to me.
No I don't think people would look at CoCo and say "this is to strong" one is a always fantastic swiss army card, and the other is a complete build around that can whiff.
Ancestral wasn't fine until they banned out the deck that made it the case.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor being a degenerate card, while a Sol Land, or an Ancient Tomb without you taking damage, but for only a specific type of creatures(and the most powerful in the game) is ok is beyond me!
If JTMS is not fine, then cards like Eldrazi Temple, Simian Spirit Guide, or heck even Collected Company are not fine as well.
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
Have to agree. Even if I think JTMS is fine, just a strong fully blue Win Con, its not in the same realm as those 2.
Who cares how strong Jace is in a bubble? Do you honestly think that you can find a deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor that beats GDS, E Tron, Titanshift, Burn, or Affinity any better than it already does? (Yes, I realize that UW Control currently is a dismal matchup for GDS.) What does Jace, the Mind Sculptor really do? It gives UW Control a better matchup vs. Jund. Lol.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Well this conversation is going far. I'd love for a group to get together and actually test these things. Seems like a lot of people just say formats good and don't want to see unbans. If a card truely isn't a problem let it be free. Why can't u/w have a faster win con? They play so many bad cards and Jace isn't going to help their bad matchups that I see (I'd love to test that idea). Price shouldn't even be allowed to be brought up in this thread imo because it has nothing to do with anything and it gets old hearing about. Modern continues to be a format of degenerate things so why limit what ones we can play?
I would test it if I had time. I may try to do it a little more, but I tested it at the beginning of Modern when things were more degenerate and it was fine. (I tested it in my own UW "Caw Blade" at the time.) For what it's worth, the deck had a positive Twin matchup, poor Affinity matchup, and was 50/50 vs. Bloodbraid Elf Jund (DRS not printed yet).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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I agree with Spsiegel though. Now isn't the time to unban him. The only cards that really seem like they could come back in modern right now are SFM and BBE, but no bans/unbans is likely the route things will go for a while.
To hope to keep the price down, they would have to announce a masters set with a higher print run, at standard pack MSRP not $10. Then spoil it in that set as the unban announcement.
Modern
Again, I agree that now is not a good time for unbanning him, but not for cost reasons.
Meta-wise, it doesn't do much other than encourage people to play decks that won't do super well. Eldrazi Tron, for one, will eat these types of decks alive. It is most certainly not too strong for Modern and never has been sadly enough. I would much rather face any deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor than GDS, E Tron, or Titan Shift. Burn is a deck that stomps Jace pretty hard as well. Don't get me wrong. I played with Jace in Standard and it is actually my 2nd favorite Planeswalker only to Tezzeret, the Seeker, but he is definitely fine in the meta. Jace has that "ban" enigma and while there certainly are players who don't realize how powerful Jace is, there are definitely more players that enshrine him as some scary mythological beast if released into Modern. He's not.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)You could argue that cost is also a criteria that cards don't get banned. I wonder how many people will riot if Karn Liberated got banned? If that happens, it will be the most expensive Modern legal card they banned to date. Ever since the inception of the format, correct me if I am wrong but they haven't banned any card over $50 on the secondary market. I'm not including any cards that started out banned from August 2011. Price is definitely a factor in deciding bans, that's probably why Karn Liberated is still legal and so is Tarmogoyf. If you unban JTMS and reban him, I'm sure there will be some radical players rolling up to WOTC HQ irrationally with guns and start raiding the place in Renton, WA. People get stabbed 7 times in an argument over MTG, just think of what an unban and reban would do to some people's mentality.
People way under value him
Cards do different things in different formats though. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were well balanced for Standard’s card pool, while being broken in Legacy and Modern. You can’t always judge a card’s impact on a format by looking at how it affects older formats.
Also, FCG, what you can buy it for right now doesn't matter in regards to an unban near as much as what the price would be after an unban. And if it got unbanned into modern, the price would be stupid high.
Modern
I think Jace is just too much risk, I really doubt WOTC takes that leap of faith even five years from now
I kinda think SFM is sadly off the table for an unban, Jeskai and UW Control are doing well, and DnT is a good meta call.
I really only think BBE is likely at this time, and that really depends if WOTC wants to boost Jund and if they fear a BBE+AV combo.
Still hearing people say Eldrazi Temple and a Shadow pieces are risky investments--are they?
I don't think they are. Both decks are good, but they aren't oppressive so Wizards has no reason to ban anything.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
So what your saying is that we should unban Mental Misstep also.
All I did was apply the same logic to a different card, if you don't like the logical conclusion that isn't really my problem.
Its also worth noting that the entire justification given by WotC for it being banned has absolutely nothing to do with modern and everything to do with other formats. Same as SFM and MM.
So was I. I'm just saying that saying "x card is broken in x format, therefor it's not okay in Modern" is silly. Legacy has a vastly different format and metagame. It made sense at Modern's inception, but look at Bitterblossom.
I actually agree with you that Jace shouldn't be unbanned, but not because it's "really powerful in legacy". I'm just not a fan of dismissing cards, simply because they're powerful in a different format.
Wizards does not card about secondary market value outside of how much they can make off of reprints in Masters sets. If price was in questions. Goyf would have banned long ago. JTMS is a degenerate card. Leave it banned
I think you misunderstood my post.
I wasn't saying JTMS is on the banned list because it is an expensive card. I was saying that it's price tag is a contributing factor to why it won't ever be unbanned.
While I know that Wizards isn't suppose to care about the secondary market, that's only what they have to tell the public.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
gotta say that comparing JtmS to SSG or CoCo is pretty laughable.
Have to agree. Even if I think JTMS is fine, just a strong fully blue Win Con, its not in the same realm as those 2.
Spirits
No I don't think people would look at CoCo and say "this is to strong" one is a always fantastic swiss army card, and the other is a complete build around that can whiff.
Ancestral wasn't fine until they banned out the deck that made it the case.
your right JtmS is in a completely higher echelon
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)