Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
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The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Not sure if it's Modern bashing or not but this thread is about the only thing exciting about the format.
Anyone feel Frontier ( aka, Post-Modern ) will affect Modern in the long run if Wizards actually gives it attention? I feel Origins to Kaladesh is what they are trying to achieve for game balance; slower, midrange creature bash.
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(ktkenshinx):
Warning for spamming (content isn't banlist related) -ktkenshinx-
Not sure if it's Modern bashing or not but this thread is about the only thing exciting about the format.
Anyone feel Frontier ( aka, Post-Modern ) will affect Modern in the long run if Wizards actually gives it attention? I feel Origins to Kaladesh is what they are trying to achieve for game balance; slower, midrange creature bash.
Is "frontier" a thing announce by wotc, or are you speculating on the proposition that wotc will eventually make another new constructed format?
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for spamming (content isn't banlist related) -ktkenshinx-
Not sure if it's Modern bashing or not but this thread is about the only thing exciting about the format.
Anyone feel Frontier ( aka, Post-Modern ) will affect Modern in the long run if Wizards actually gives it attention? I feel Origins to Kaladesh is what they are trying to achieve for game balance; slower, midrange creature bash.
Is "frontier" a thing announce by wotc, or are you speculating on the proposition that wotc will eventually make another new constructed format?
Not sure if it's Modern bashing or not but this thread is about the only thing exciting about the format.
Anyone feel Frontier ( aka, Post-Modern ) will affect Modern in the long run if Wizards actually gives it attention? I feel Origins to Kaladesh is what they are trying to achieve for game balance; slower, midrange creature bash.
Is "frontier" a thing announce by wotc, or are you speculating on the proposition that wotc will eventually make another new constructed format?
I'm not sure if people are angry about infect, but it seems to be the main target of ban discussion. I think part of the issue there is that people seem to agree that it's the best overall deck, and the twin ban set the precedent that wizards is willing to ban the best deck in the format to keep things open. So there's usually a lot of arguing over which deck qualifies. I think infect is fine, and encourages interaction. I do think that the format is too linear these days, but I don't know if that's an issue that needs the banlist to solve, rather than new printings.
Unban chatter: Preordain, JTMS, and SFM. I actually think Jace would be ok, but I never expect him to come off. SFM is ok power level wise, but the problem there is that it discourages differentiation. Abzan, UWx control, Death and Taxes, and really any deck running white would be incentivized to play it, which again was one of the reasons cited for the twin ban. Preordain seems safest at this point.
BBE: I am on the fence about this one. BBE seems like it would be very good, bordering on too good maaaaaaybe, but I could also see it coming off if SFM gets unbanned. This would create a pretty strong K-Command vs SFM battle and give jund players a reason to go jund over abzan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
People often point to Infect as the poster child of Modern's linear problem. However, unless you nuke the entire deck banning one or two cards would only be a band aid solution to a much greater problem, thus ultimately pointless. I don't find playing whack a mole a legitimate strategy but yet I can't see Wizards fixing it with how they are printing sets.
Right now, Frontier is too young to actually be an effective format. Right now it's "last year's standard". If they were smarter about how they did it, they'd say RTR block and Theros block are part of it ATM, and will permanently rotate out after a year for RTR and two for Theros, and then rotation stops. That way, we'd actually have a substantial card pool that never existed, instead of "M15, Khans block, stuff in standard". People are trying way too hard to get ahead of the curve on that one. But hey, if it bolsters the price of junk rares from Khans, I'm not going to complain. (In all seriousness, they should look into banning CoCo and Rhino, because otherwise you just have a format where players get to face the most aggravating cards from the last two standards.)
As for the modern ban list, I think we are actually fairly well positioned, but it depends on the meta game swinging back towards a more balanced point. People are starting to build expecting Infect, Zooicide, and Dredge, and once you're positioned to handle those (or pull the rug out from under their all-in kill) the whole format can slow down again. It's a predator-prey cycle: Format slows down and gets grindy, fast linear decks go bonkers. People answer the fast linear decks, the format slows down again. And because the format slows down, the fast linear decks rise again... It seems like Merfolk/Affinity are the only Tier 1 deck that are largely untouched by this cycle, because they fluctuate between "grindy inevitability" and "fast kill" depending on game and can fit into either meta.
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(ktkenshinx):
Warning for spamming (content isn't banlist related) -ktkenshinx-
I would love a Preordain unban. Would throw that in a Delver shell in a heartbeat.
JTMS would be nice but I don't see it happening. I think WOTC is scared of him.
EDIT:
I know Dredge is the new hotness but it looks pretty fun and fairly cheap. Does it seem relatively safe to you guys to invest in? Doesn't seem any faster than Fish or Affinity and is less resilient.
Regarding Dredge, my impression is that it is about the same power level as affinity, but folds even harder to hate. I don't expect that it is in any danger, although worth noting that Cathartic Reunion is a fairly substantial upgrade to the explosiveness of the deck (direct swap for Tormenting Voice), even if it is worse in topdeck mode since you require an additional card in hand. That is likely not a significant drawback considering Life from the Loam is used to put cards in hand for Conflagrate as it is.
All that is to say that it is close to affinity power level and potentially getting an increase in explosiveness. I don't think it's in danger, but it is getting close to the top of the meta imo.
I think that there isn't anything that stands out a whole lot. I think the main two questions are:
Is Become Immense allowing t3 kills too consistently for Infect/DSA?
and
Is Preordain an unban target which would have a positive impact on the format?
I think it's also important to consider whether an unban would have zero impact on the format. Typically unbans have been "safe" and did not affect the format to any extent until later printings made their decks better (in the cases of Nacatl and Grave Troll at least). I don't think "will it benefit the format?" is something WOTC looks at. I think they just want cards that have as little impact as possible.
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
I think it's also important to consider whether an unban would have zero impact on the format. Typically unbans have been "safe" and did not affect the format to any extent until later printings made their decks better (in the cases of Nacatl and Grave Troll at least). I don't think "will it benefit the format?" is something WOTC looks at. I think they just want cards that have as little impact as possible.
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
I don't think that's always true. AV and SotM were unbanned specifically to help blue decks. They were expecting them to have an impact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I think it's also important to consider whether an unban would have zero impact on the format. Typically unbans have been "safe" and did not affect the format to any extent until later printings made their decks better (in the cases of Nacatl and Grave Troll at least). I don't think "will it benefit the format?" is something WOTC looks at. I think they just want cards that have as little impact as possible.
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
I don't think that's always true. AV and SotM were unbanned specifically to help blue decks. They were expecting them to have an impact.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
My major issue with the idea that StoneForge will somehow make White less diverse in terms of creatures is that Tarmogoyf is basically run in every Green deck that wants him(only exceptions I can think of is Elves). I think SFM would end up occupying that same space for White, and I'm of the belief that Death and Taxes/Hatebears in Modern wouldn't want her(at least in the current iteration of the decks that have 4-6 Search Hate effects). Would I gladly test out Mystic? Yes, yes I would, but the core of Modern D&T can't support her as well as Legacy can due to Arbiters we have to run.
The data in the Modern Nexus test was great, except for the fact that the Burn player took out a card that you 100% keep in against Abzan(Eidolon of the Great Revel).Burn was the only matchup that was heavily impacted by Mystic being added to the list, and I don't think one pilot should be used as an example of the overall impact that a card would have.
Equipment is pretty much non-functional as a card type in Modern without her. Batterskull sees fringe play in some Blue Moon lists, but I think that's functionally it(Minus Cheerios decks, which basically just want 0 mana equipment to get Storm count way up there). Adding StoneForge back to the format would hopefully allow for not just Batterskull to see play, but also other Equipment Oddities like Auriok Steelshaper.
I mean, it's just my opinion, but I do think that StoneForge wouldn't hurt the format. She gives what is the second weakest color in Modern a new toy to experiment with.
My major issue with the idea that StoneForge will somehow make White less diverse in terms of creatures is that Tarmogoyf is basically run in every Green deck that wants him(only exceptions I can think of is Elves).
This isn't close to true. Elves, RG Tron, Abzan Company, Kiki Chord, Infect, and Titan Breach don't run Goyf, despite being green. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Dredge, and Death's Shadow Zoo (maindeck) don't run Goyf, despite being aggro. Not even Bant Eldrazi lists all use him, and that's the kind of big, monstrous green-based deck that seems like it would love Goyf. All in all, Goyf just doesn't see nearly as much play as people allege. This is an interesting analog to the Stoneforge situation, because it forces us to question how many decks would actually use SFM despite being white and ostensibly benefiting from her addition.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I guess it would be accurate to say that Wizards has a history of unbanning cards to help the format, but they usually fall short of fixing the problems inherent to the format. I think the only cards on the Banned list currently that Wizards would potentially bring off the list and that would affect the metagame are Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain. Stoneforge is probably not coming off, because MaRo views it as bad design IIRC, and I doubt Preordain is going to make huge waves. It will just make all the decks running Serum Visions a little better.
We simply need more cards in Modern. I'd say something on the level of Innocent Blood or at least Curfew. We also need a gimped version of Force of Will- maybe a Lapse of Certainty with a non-white spell clause and your opponent chooses the card exiled? I dunno. I would support seeing countermagic spread through more colors than Blue though.
My major issue with the idea that StoneForge will somehow make White less diverse in terms of creatures is that Tarmogoyf is basically run in every Green deck that wants him(only exceptions I can think of is Elves).
This isn't close to true. Elves, RG Tron, Abzan Company, Kiki Chord, Infect, and Titan Breach don't run Goyf, despite being green. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Dredge, and Death's Shadow Zoo (maindeck) don't run Goyf, despite being aggro. Not even Bant Eldrazi lists all use him, and that's the kind of big, monstrous green-based deck that seems like it would love Goyf. All in all, Goyf just doesn't see nearly as much play as people allege. This is an interesting analog to the Stoneforge situation, because it forces us to question how many decks would actually use SFM despite being white and ostensibly benefiting from her addition.
Fair enough, I was mainly thinking of Green decks that want Goyf run him. In the case of Elves, he's not a lord/dork/Elf. For Tron he's basically the opposite of Tron's Gameplan. Kiki Chord/Abzan Company tend to want Value Creatures, not a straight up beatstick. Infect and Breach win through an axis Goyf isn't particularly good at(Life vs Infect, Lands in play=Critical Mass).
I mean, yeah, it's easy in a theoretical sense to jam in 4 Mystics and 1-3 Equipment, but in the case of some decks they don't enough non-core spots to justify having 5+ of them taken up by Mystic+Equipment.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I guess it would be accurate to say that Wizards has a history of unbanning cards to help the format, but they usually fall short of fixing the problems inherent to the format. I think the only cards on the Banned list currently that Wizards would potentially bring off the list and that would affect the metagame are Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain. Stoneforge is probably not coming off, because MaRo views it as bad design IIRC, and I doubt Preordain is going to make huge waves. It will just make all the decks running Serum Visions a little better.
I have argued a number of times in the previous thread that Twin would accomplish the goal of fixing many of the things everyone is complaining about in Modern right now. No, it does not fix all the fundamental problems Modern faces, but it would at least bring back a balanced format in which interactivity can thrive and where doing the fastest and most degenerate thing possible isn't the best strategy. I have quoted this article a number of times, but I will simply repeat the highlight points from the article posted in November 2015, a month and a half before Twin was banned:
"Given all these linear options, why are most Modern events like Pittsburgh or Charlotte and not like Porto Alegre or Dallas? Thank URx Twin and BGx Midrange. That’s not “URx Twin or BGx Midrange”. It’s “and” because healthy metagames need both decks."
"Linear decks can’t deal with these different policing angles and typically crumble over long tournaments."
"goldfish decks bully their way to the finals. That’s not going to happen at a tournament where both Twin and Jund show up in force"
"At Pittsburgh, we saw both decks which is why the event was so healthy and such a return to old-school Modern"
"Pittsburgh should have been a faith-restoring event for all Modern players, and I am optimistic that we can keep seeing these forces in more events to come."
Twin served as a critical role in working with Jund to help balance the format. Without it, fast linear decks have become the king archetype (and 75% of Tier 1 decklists), while the only successful police deck left (Jund) remains by the largest single deck (and currently BGx midrange holds a larger meta share than Twin had when it was banned...).
Additionally, Twin's ban was supposed to open the flood gates for all the blue decks being "suppressed" and "pushed out" (their exact words from the announcement). But instead, the ban has produced the opposite results and has done nothing but hurt blue decks. The ban has been a complete failure by its own goals stated in the ban announcement. Even with the help of the "apology unbans" Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek (which were to specifically help blue reactive decks), those decks are both worse off and less prevalent than before the ban. It was the wrong decision for the wrong reasons and produced the wrong results.
Preordain will do nothing to help this. Jace, The Mind Sculptor will do nothing to help this. Neither of these address the problems blue actually faces: poor answers and poor win conditions. Twin was "the best" blue deck because it solves those problems by giving a win condition that can actually survive using only mediocre, temporary, and conditional answers. It was a necessary force in the format and it NEVER held an oppressive share of the meta. It helped keep the format stable with its partner in crime, Jund, and was consistently praised for its ability to shut down the linear degeneracy that we are facing today. The deck was not broken, it was not invulnerable, and it was nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. If it was actually as powerful as legend says, then it would have risen to 20%+ of the meta like every other diversity ban Modern has ever had. It was a very good deck, possibly the best deck, but not by much (and certainly had fluctuations). Removing it has done nothing but hurt the format and help contribute to one of the most complained about years Modern has ever had.
Wizards cannot fix all the problems Modern faces without a major overhaul, dozens of new cards, or dozens of bannings. An overhaul could hurt many players heavily invested in the format. New cards will be extremely unlikely to help blue reactive decks, as per Mark Rosewater's own comments. And nobody wants lots of new bannings (not even me!). Infect is not the problem. Death's Shadow is not the problem. Eldrazi is not the problem. The problem is there is nothing in Modern to sway people away from playing the fastest and most degenerate powerful deck they can. There is virtually no drawback, no consequence, no downside. Why try to have all the answers to all the variety of opponents when you can simply kill them turn 3? Or create such an overwhelming game state that you might as well have won turn 3? Unbanning Twin rolls back the clock back to when people referred to Modern as "healthy." And I haven't heard that word used to describe what we've been playing for nearly a year. If Modern continues down the path its on, Twin WILL come back. It's just a matter of how much Wizards actually cares about the health of the format and how quickly they will admit their mistake.
*WHEW!* Now that I have that in the new thread, time to lay low, since it seems very few people want to actually talk about Twin in the way that it affected the format (there are some, but it often devolves into personal attacks and accomplishes nothing). I suppose people are equally free to think that banning Become Immense or unbanning Preordain will fix all our problems too.
I think it's also important to consider whether an unban would have zero impact on the format. Typically unbans have been "safe" and did not affect the format to any extent until later printings made their decks better (in the cases of Nacatl and Grave Troll at least). I don't think "will it benefit the format?" is something WOTC looks at. I think they just want cards that have as little impact as possible.
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
I don't think that's always true. AV and SotM were unbanned specifically to help blue decks. They were expecting them to have an impact.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
Sure. But it's not like WOTC is going to come out and say "SOTM and AV are underpowered in the current Modern and have no business being on the banned list, therefore they're unbanned." They had to say SOMETHING. But as another poster mentioned, while AV does see some play neither card altered anything in the format. Not the way Twin would, and not the way people hope SFM would.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I guess it would be accurate to say that Wizards has a history of unbanning cards to help the format, but they usually fall short of fixing the problems inherent to the format. I think the only cards on the Banned list currently that Wizards would potentially bring off the list and that would affect the metagame are Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain. Stoneforge is probably not coming off, because MaRo views it as bad design IIRC, and I doubt Preordain is going to make huge waves. It will just make all the decks running Serum Visions a little better.
I have argued a number of times in the previous thread that Twin would accomplish the goal of fixing many of the things everyone is complaining about in Modern right now. No, it does not fix all the fundamental problems Modern faces, but it would at least bring back a balanced format in which interactivity can thrive and where doing the fastest and most degenerate thing possible isn't the best strategy. I have quoted this article a number of times, but I will simply repeat the highlight points from the article posted in November 2015, a month and a half before Twin was banned:
"Given all these linear options, why are most Modern events like Pittsburgh or Charlotte and not like Porto Alegre or Dallas? Thank URx Twin and BGx Midrange. That’s not “URx Twin or BGx Midrange”. It’s “and” because healthy metagames need both decks."
"Linear decks can’t deal with these different policing angles and typically crumble over long tournaments."
"goldfish decks bully their way to the finals. That’s not going to happen at a tournament where both Twin and Jund show up in force"
"At Pittsburgh, we saw both decks which is why the event was so healthy and such a return to old-school Modern"
"Pittsburgh should have been a faith-restoring event for all Modern players, and I am optimistic that we can keep seeing these forces in more events to come."
Twin served as a critical role in working with Jund to help balance the format. Without it, fast linear decks have become the king archetype (and 75% of Tier 1 decklists), while the only successful police deck left (Jund) remains by the largest single deck (and currently BGx midrange holds a larger meta share than Twin had when it was banned...).
Additionally, Twin's ban was supposed to open the flood gates for all the blue decks being "suppressed" and "pushed out" (their exact words from the announcement). But instead, the ban has produced the opposite results and has done nothing but hurt blue decks. The ban has been a complete failure by its own goals stated in the ban announcement. Even with the help of the "apology unbans" Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek (which were to specifically help blue reactive decks), those decks are both worse off and less prevalent than before the ban. It was the wrong decision for the wrong reasons and produced the wrong results.
Preordain will do nothing to help this. Jace, The Mind Sculptor will do nothing to help this. Neither of these address the problems blue actually faces: poor answers and poor win conditions. Twin was "the best" blue deck because it solves those problems by giving a win condition that can actually survive using only mediocre, temporary, and conditional answers. It was a necessary force in the format and it NEVER held an oppressive share of the meta. It helped keep the format stable with its partner in crime, Jund, and was consistently praised for its ability to shut down the linear degeneracy that we are facing today. The deck was not broken, it was not invulnerable, and it was nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. If it was actually as powerful as legend says, then it would have risen to 20%+ of the meta like every other diversity ban Modern has ever had. It was a very good deck, possibly the best deck, but not by much (and certainly had fluctuations). Removing it has done nothing but hurt the format and help contribute to one of the most complained about years Modern has ever had.
Wizards cannot fix all the problems Modern faces without a major overhaul, dozens of new cards, or dozens of bannings. An overhaul could hurt many players heavily invested in the format. New cards will be extremely unlikely to help blue reactive decks, as per Mark Rosewater's own comments. And nobody wants lots of new bannings (not even me!). Infect is not the problem. Death's Shadow is not the problem. Eldrazi is not the problem. The problem is there is nothing in Modern to sway people away from playing the fastest and most degenerate powerful deck they can. There is virtually no drawback, no consequence, no downside. Why try to have all the answers to all the variety of opponents when you can simply kill them turn 3? Or create such an overwhelming game state that you might as well have won turn 3? Unbanning Twin rolls back the clock back to when people referred to Modern as "healthy." And I haven't heard that word used to describe what we've been playing for nearly a year. If Modern continues down the path its on, Twin WILL come back. It's just a matter of how much Wizards actually cares about the health of the format and how quickly they will admit their mistake.
*WHEW!* Now that I have that in the new thread, time to lay low, since it seems very few people want to actually talk about Twin in the way that it affected the format (there are some, but it often devolves into personal attacks and accomplishes nothing). I suppose people are equally free to think that banning Become Immense or unbanning Preordain will fix all our problems too.
too add: twins dominance for the gps which got it banned, wasn't due to it being overpowered, it was because this format is so linear that when you bring a deck that beats linearity, you dominate. remember twins match up vs uwr control and bg/x folks? twin crumbled to interactivity and had to completely remove the combo game 2 and play more of an attrition based game in which blood moon was usually the trump card to those match ups (the card I feel should have been banned to weaken twin vs its counters rather than twin itself) in other words don't blame the cure blame the disease.
"It's just a matter of how much Wizards actually cares about the health of the format and how quickly they will admit their mistake."
I agree with everything you said but they wont unban twin because it will make them look like fools, they have egos remember that. but yeah unbans to jace or preordain for example isn't the answer I agree, and nothing strong will enter through standard to truly give blue what it really needs(unless it breaks standard) and doing mass bans to slow the game down will lose to many players and there faith in the format. realizing this we need more sideboard cards that beat (and I mean literally auto win) vs multiple linear strategies that enter through standard.
I think it's also important to consider whether an unban would have zero impact on the format. Typically unbans have been "safe" and did not affect the format to any extent until later printings made their decks better (in the cases of Nacatl and Grave Troll at least). I don't think "will it benefit the format?" is something WOTC looks at. I think they just want cards that have as little impact as possible.
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
I don't think that's always true. AV and SotM were unbanned specifically to help blue decks. They were expecting them to have an impact.
"We also looked at our banned lists for cards that could increase the richness of the format. Currently, the format tends to favor aggressive decks and quick-kill combo decks. We looked for cards that tend to work best in slower decks."
"While there are some control decks that would use Ancestral Vision, it is an underplayed portion of the metagame. To allow for an increase in the number of blue-based control or attrition decks, we are unbanning Ancestral Vision."
"To allow for an increase in the number of controlling combo decks in the format, we are unbanning Sword of the Meek."
Sure. But it's not like WOTC is going to come out and say "SOTM and AV are underpowered in the current Modern and have no business being on the banned list, therefore they're unbanned." They had to say SOMETHING. But as another poster mentioned, while AV does see some play neither card altered anything in the format. Not the way Twin would, and not the way people hope SFM would.
"Sure. But it's not like WOTC is going to come out and say "SOTM and AV are underpowered in the current Modern and have no business being on the banned list, therefore they're unbanned." "
no, what they stated isn't a lie, their intentions where to actually help blue based attrition and combo. Gonna have to disagree with you there.
an example below is of ggt in which they literally say: "that type of deck has not been as successful in Modern tournaments recently"
as a reason for it's unban.
"Wizards investigates whether there is a banned card that, if not banned, might add new decks to competitive play. We look for cards that are unlikely to add power to existing top decks, but instead add new strategies or augment decks that are not currently as successful. Golgari Grave-Troll is very powerful in a deck based on getting a lot of cards into its graveyard. Replacing a card draw with dredge 6 is a terrific rate. However, that type of deck has not been as successful in Modern tournaments recently. While taking such a card off the banned list has some risks, this is a good time to see what happens. Golgari Grave-Troll is no longer banned."
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Next B&R Announcement:
January 16, 2017
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Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
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Old threads:
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
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4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Anyone feel Frontier ( aka, Post-Modern ) will affect Modern in the long run if Wizards actually gives it attention? I feel Origins to Kaladesh is what they are trying to achieve for game balance; slower, midrange creature bash.
Is "frontier" a thing announce by wotc, or are you speculating on the proposition that wotc will eventually make another new constructed format?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Speculation for now, but EDH was also a grass roots format if I recall correctly.
I think a lot of people joked that they would eventually make another format with the new card frames.
I kind of just wanted to start the ball rolling with something other than rabble, rabble Twin, rabble.
pseudo formats, my weakness Thanks for the info.
Is everything chill now? Or is Infect making people grumpy?
Is Become Immense allowing t3 kills too consistently for Infect/DSA?
and
Is Preordain an unban target which would have a positive impact on the format?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Unban chatter: Preordain, JTMS, and SFM. I actually think Jace would be ok, but I never expect him to come off. SFM is ok power level wise, but the problem there is that it discourages differentiation. Abzan, UWx control, Death and Taxes, and really any deck running white would be incentivized to play it, which again was one of the reasons cited for the twin ban. Preordain seems safest at this point.
BBE: I am on the fence about this one. BBE seems like it would be very good, bordering on too good maaaaaaybe, but I could also see it coming off if SFM gets unbanned. This would create a pretty strong K-Command vs SFM battle and give jund players a reason to go jund over abzan.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
As for the modern ban list, I think we are actually fairly well positioned, but it depends on the meta game swinging back towards a more balanced point. People are starting to build expecting Infect, Zooicide, and Dredge, and once you're positioned to handle those (or pull the rug out from under their all-in kill) the whole format can slow down again. It's a predator-prey cycle: Format slows down and gets grindy, fast linear decks go bonkers. People answer the fast linear decks, the format slows down again. And because the format slows down, the fast linear decks rise again... It seems like Merfolk/Affinity are the only Tier 1 deck that are largely untouched by this cycle, because they fluctuate between "grindy inevitability" and "fast kill" depending on game and can fit into either meta.
I would love a Preordain unban. Would throw that in a Delver shell in a heartbeat.
JTMS would be nice but I don't see it happening. I think WOTC is scared of him.
EDIT:
I know Dredge is the new hotness but it looks pretty fun and fairly cheap. Does it seem relatively safe to you guys to invest in? Doesn't seem any faster than Fish or Affinity and is less resilient.
All that is to say that it is close to affinity power level and potentially getting an increase in explosiveness. I don't think it's in danger, but it is getting close to the top of the meta imo.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
That's why I feel that Twin will never be unbanned. It would immediately re-create a Tier 1 deck, which is the opposite of "safe" or "no impact." And that's completely ignoring the question of whether or not Twin in Modern would be positive or negative for the format. Simply adding it back would go against their unban trends of low to no impact.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I don't think that's always true. AV and SotM were unbanned specifically to help blue decks. They were expecting them to have an impact.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Agree. From the announcement:
The data in the Modern Nexus test was great, except for the fact that the Burn player took out a card that you 100% keep in against Abzan(Eidolon of the Great Revel).Burn was the only matchup that was heavily impacted by Mystic being added to the list, and I don't think one pilot should be used as an example of the overall impact that a card would have.
Equipment is pretty much non-functional as a card type in Modern without her. Batterskull sees fringe play in some Blue Moon lists, but I think that's functionally it(Minus Cheerios decks, which basically just want 0 mana equipment to get Storm count way up there). Adding StoneForge back to the format would hopefully allow for not just Batterskull to see play, but also other Equipment Oddities like Auriok Steelshaper.
I mean, it's just my opinion, but I do think that StoneForge wouldn't hurt the format. She gives what is the second weakest color in Modern a new toy to experiment with.
This isn't close to true. Elves, RG Tron, Abzan Company, Kiki Chord, Infect, and Titan Breach don't run Goyf, despite being green. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Dredge, and Death's Shadow Zoo (maindeck) don't run Goyf, despite being aggro. Not even Bant Eldrazi lists all use him, and that's the kind of big, monstrous green-based deck that seems like it would love Goyf. All in all, Goyf just doesn't see nearly as much play as people allege. This is an interesting analog to the Stoneforge situation, because it forces us to question how many decks would actually use SFM despite being white and ostensibly benefiting from her addition.
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I guess it would be accurate to say that Wizards has a history of unbanning cards to help the format, but they usually fall short of fixing the problems inherent to the format. I think the only cards on the Banned list currently that Wizards would potentially bring off the list and that would affect the metagame are Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain. Stoneforge is probably not coming off, because MaRo views it as bad design IIRC, and I doubt Preordain is going to make huge waves. It will just make all the decks running Serum Visions a little better.
We simply need more cards in Modern. I'd say something on the level of Innocent Blood or at least Curfew. We also need a gimped version of Force of Will- maybe a Lapse of Certainty with a non-white spell clause and your opponent chooses the card exiled? I dunno. I would support seeing countermagic spread through more colors than Blue though.
Fair enough, I was mainly thinking of Green decks that want Goyf run him. In the case of Elves, he's not a lord/dork/Elf. For Tron he's basically the opposite of Tron's Gameplan. Kiki Chord/Abzan Company tend to want Value Creatures, not a straight up beatstick. Infect and Breach win through an axis Goyf isn't particularly good at(Life vs Infect, Lands in play=Critical Mass).
I mean, yeah, it's easy in a theoretical sense to jam in 4 Mystics and 1-3 Equipment, but in the case of some decks they don't enough non-core spots to justify having 5+ of them taken up by Mystic+Equipment.
I have argued a number of times in the previous thread that Twin would accomplish the goal of fixing many of the things everyone is complaining about in Modern right now. No, it does not fix all the fundamental problems Modern faces, but it would at least bring back a balanced format in which interactivity can thrive and where doing the fastest and most degenerate thing possible isn't the best strategy. I have quoted this article a number of times, but I will simply repeat the highlight points from the article posted in November 2015, a month and a half before Twin was banned:
Twin served as a critical role in working with Jund to help balance the format. Without it, fast linear decks have become the king archetype (and 75% of Tier 1 decklists), while the only successful police deck left (Jund) remains by the largest single deck (and currently BGx midrange holds a larger meta share than Twin had when it was banned...).
Additionally, Twin's ban was supposed to open the flood gates for all the blue decks being "suppressed" and "pushed out" (their exact words from the announcement). But instead, the ban has produced the opposite results and has done nothing but hurt blue decks. The ban has been a complete failure by its own goals stated in the ban announcement. Even with the help of the "apology unbans" Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek (which were to specifically help blue reactive decks), those decks are both worse off and less prevalent than before the ban. It was the wrong decision for the wrong reasons and produced the wrong results.
Preordain will do nothing to help this. Jace, The Mind Sculptor will do nothing to help this. Neither of these address the problems blue actually faces: poor answers and poor win conditions. Twin was "the best" blue deck because it solves those problems by giving a win condition that can actually survive using only mediocre, temporary, and conditional answers. It was a necessary force in the format and it NEVER held an oppressive share of the meta. It helped keep the format stable with its partner in crime, Jund, and was consistently praised for its ability to shut down the linear degeneracy that we are facing today. The deck was not broken, it was not invulnerable, and it was nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. If it was actually as powerful as legend says, then it would have risen to 20%+ of the meta like every other diversity ban Modern has ever had. It was a very good deck, possibly the best deck, but not by much (and certainly had fluctuations). Removing it has done nothing but hurt the format and help contribute to one of the most complained about years Modern has ever had.
Wizards cannot fix all the problems Modern faces without a major overhaul, dozens of new cards, or dozens of bannings. An overhaul could hurt many players heavily invested in the format. New cards will be extremely unlikely to help blue reactive decks, as per Mark Rosewater's own comments. And nobody wants lots of new bannings (not even me!). Infect is not the problem. Death's Shadow is not the problem. Eldrazi is not the problem. The problem is there is nothing in Modern to sway people away from playing the fastest and most degenerate powerful deck they can. There is virtually no drawback, no consequence, no downside. Why try to have all the answers to all the variety of opponents when you can simply kill them turn 3? Or create such an overwhelming game state that you might as well have won turn 3? Unbanning Twin rolls back the clock back to when people referred to Modern as "healthy." And I haven't heard that word used to describe what we've been playing for nearly a year. If Modern continues down the path its on, Twin WILL come back. It's just a matter of how much Wizards actually cares about the health of the format and how quickly they will admit their mistake.
*WHEW!* Now that I have that in the new thread, time to lay low, since it seems very few people want to actually talk about Twin in the way that it affected the format (there are some, but it often devolves into personal attacks and accomplishes nothing). I suppose people are equally free to think that banning Become Immense or unbanning Preordain will fix all our problems too.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
too add: twins dominance for the gps which got it banned, wasn't due to it being overpowered, it was because this format is so linear that when you bring a deck that beats linearity, you dominate. remember twins match up vs uwr control and bg/x folks? twin crumbled to interactivity and had to completely remove the combo game 2 and play more of an attrition based game in which blood moon was usually the trump card to those match ups (the card I feel should have been banned to weaken twin vs its counters rather than twin itself) in other words don't blame the cure blame the disease.
"It's just a matter of how much Wizards actually cares about the health of the format and how quickly they will admit their mistake."
I agree with everything you said but they wont unban twin because it will make them look like fools, they have egos remember that. but yeah unbans to jace or preordain for example isn't the answer I agree, and nothing strong will enter through standard to truly give blue what it really needs(unless it breaks standard) and doing mass bans to slow the game down will lose to many players and there faith in the format. realizing this we need more sideboard cards that beat (and I mean literally auto win) vs multiple linear strategies that enter through standard.
decks playing:
none
"Sure. But it's not like WOTC is going to come out and say "SOTM and AV are underpowered in the current Modern and have no business being on the banned list, therefore they're unbanned." "
no, what they stated isn't a lie, their intentions where to actually help blue based attrition and combo. Gonna have to disagree with you there.
an example below is of ggt in which they literally say: "that type of deck has not been as successful in Modern tournaments recently"
as a reason for it's unban.
"Wizards investigates whether there is a banned card that, if not banned, might add new decks to competitive play. We look for cards that are unlikely to add power to existing top decks, but instead add new strategies or augment decks that are not currently as successful. Golgari Grave-Troll is very powerful in a deck based on getting a lot of cards into its graveyard. Replacing a card draw with dredge 6 is a terrific rate. However, that type of deck has not been as successful in Modern tournaments recently. While taking such a card off the banned list has some risks, this is a good time to see what happens. Golgari Grave-Troll is no longer banned."
decks playing:
none